84 Replies to “VIMY”

  1. Meant to say, of course, Harper doesn’t read all of them verbally to the public. I’m sure he reads them. At least some of them.

  2. Ted and ET: WW I was certainly not a “good” or “just” war in the sense that WW II was–though in 1939 that difference was not clear to many people, esp. in the US (remember the extermination camps really only became known after the war).
    Had Wilhelmine Germany defeated both France and Russia and become the overweening controller of Europe, how long would it have taken (with some more naval construction by Germany) before Britain was effectively reduced to vassal status?
    In the end there would have been a competition between German-dominated Europe and the US. Who can say what the outcome might have been. But, given sensibilities in the early 20th century, one can argue that even German global preponderance would have been better than the over a hundred million who died as a consequence of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Ho and Pol.
    There may be an argument that the victory in WW I of the democracies over the authoritarians led to the totalitarians and much, much, more death in the end.
    Mark
    Ottawa

  3. It’s also pretty “classy” to post under “ET Unhinged Again”, Ted.
    Cut it out. Considering the topic of this post, I sort of expected better.

  4. Two points about this post:
    First, thanks to Neo and the link provided, I looked up my grandfather’s Attestation Papers. The man died in 1961 or so when I was a youngster but once I saw his name and his signature I was a bit overwhelmed. Lest we forget, eh.
    Second, I tried to read a piece of crap from some a-hole at the G&M by the name of Rick Salutin. Thanks to my grandfather and many others who did not return, that hunk of flaming left wing crap writer is free to spout his bile. Like a protester at a soldier’s funeral, this guy knows no limits. These people truly disgust me.

  5. Mark:
    I’m not sure that Germany, had it defeated France and Russia, would have had the power to then continue on to take over England. If Hitler couldn’t do it, then the Kaiser probably couldn’t either.
    Interesting question though.
    Also interesting about whether the “democracies” brought on the totalitarians by defeating the authoritarians. I’m sure you’ve read Margaret MacMillan’s amazing read of a book “Paris 1919”. She argues that the peace treaty and the Allies leaders have unfairly been made the scapegoats for the mistakes of those who came later. She basically debunks the notion that reparations imposed on the Germans, the partitioning of national boundaries and the peace terms that were dictated to the Central Powers were in large part responsible for the Second World War.
    Agree or not, it is an excellent read. And coming from a sharp Canadian mind, she makes a point of highlighting the Canadian participation and role, however minor, in the peace process.

  6. In my humble opinion, both ET and Ted should be ashamed of themselves. I agree with kate, this is not the forum for a personal attack fest. Show some respect for those who died 90 years ago as well as yesterday.

  7. CPAC is presently re-playing the ‘entire’ Vimy Ridge ceremony.
    I caught the live CTV/CBC coverage, earlier today, but CPAC had some gov’t commitee stuff playing at the time (at least here in T.O.).
    This CPAC tape is showing ceremonies ‘prior’ to the CTV/CBC coverage, and will probably be re-played again tonite late, or very early morning.

  8. Ted: Once Wilhelmine Germany was in effective control of Europe, could reduce army expenditures, and then build a fleet superior to Britain’s, the game would have been over. Hitler did not have the time, or the resources, before 1939, to build the fleet. Had the Kaiser won in 1914/15 the increased fleet would have been no problem.
    As to Versailles, the nature of the Treaty was not what led to Hitler. It was that many Germans still believed they deserved to have won and deserved to be the greatest power in Europe (if not the world).
    The thing was not the Treaty but unsatisfied national aspiration and the power (or not) to seek to fulfill them. So winning in the first war might have produced a German imperium but not a fanatically exterminationist one. Maybe better for mankind as a whole, above all Germans, Jews, Poles, Roma, Russians, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Serbs, Greeks et al.
    As to Margaret MacMillan, it says a lot about our country that no Canadian publisher would touch the book.
    Mark
    Ottawa

  9. odie441, Kate
    With you on your comments. Does anyone know who was the PM then … the opposition … the MSM … what they said or didn’t say. Will anyone remember 90 or a hundred from now the current crop?
    It’s where the rubber meet the road (sorry for the cliche) any non-participant debating the event is irrelevant.

  10. Lowell Green of 580 CFRA-AM, Ottawa, reported live, in real time, from the Vimy ceremony this day.
    CFRA was the only private broadcaster permitted to broadcast from the Vimy ceremony.
    A salute to Lowell Green.
    …-

  12. Jane: Did you find what you need,if not I’m thinking you may need to look under the Bristish armed forces as Nfld was still part of Britain then. Just a thought.

  13. Since we are on the topic of documents/people tracking, does anyone know how one would find out about Quebec regiments fighting in WWII in 1941-1942, training near Leeds and likely (I’m guessing) fighting at Dieppe?
    I believe the regiment I’m seeking is Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, but I would like to explore some of its history to find out about a possible relative.

  14. After the Vimy Ridge ceremony , CPAC is now re-playing the Ottawa, Vimy commemorations.
    I have no doubt , that they will be re-played all night.
    God bless the troops , past and present .
    God save the Queen .

  15. Could you imagine the Canadian Armed Forces trying to coordinate an attack like Vimy today? Just to give you an idea:
    A nation of 8 million put 100,000 men into the field at Vimy. At that time we had an army of an estimated 620K – almost all of which was infantry.
    The current American deployment in Iraq is a little over 250K I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) and the standing army is around 1.1 million. And Canada’s current standing army is between 50-60K and I believe about a third of that is paper strength (logistics).
    These figures alone show that our country has been a tremendous force in this world. And we should be proud of the courage of those who sacrificed their lives for it b/c they did so for a noble cause (including one of my own ancestors at Ypres).
    Some may claim that WWI was just an imperial war which is true. But would you rather have had the legacy and splendour of the British Empire reign supreme over this world or that of Kaiser Wilhelm’s Grosse Deutschland und Weltmacht (world power)? The answer is obvious.

  16. Ted , I am no expert , but there are many Canadian Forces links at Mark’s site (The Torch):
    toyoufromfailnghands.blogspot.com
    Or , hopefully , others can help …

  17. Been around the block, it felt like we took that same trip today with your and yours…truly a ceremony to remember, for all the reasons you listed.
    Surprising how close to the surface emotions were today!
    What a spectacular site, and the fiddler…oh, the fiddler…cut right to the heart of it…the the man holding the family photo, bowed deeply in remembrance, that song of old sung by all, and then the choir.
    The faces of the elderly and young, together…the appreciation shown toward the Queen, and the pride of hearing this Prime Minister, and that of France.
    Yes, this was a day to remember those days and those who were lost to us.

  18. What’s up with Granatstein? Is he expecting a Liberal Senate seat?
    I saw him on TVO a few months ago, dissing “the government”–the Liberal Government, by the way–over and over again for not supporting our military. Steve Paikin didn’t challenge him once.
    I tried to contact Granatstein through one of the organizations to which he belongs: I pointed out the disingenuous nature of his criticism of “the government” because it sounded like he was criticizing the Conservatives, when, in fact, it was clearly the Liberals he was indicting.
    I heard nothing from him.
    Can anyone explain this man’s duplicity?

  19. Granatstein has been a pretty regular and severe critic of the Liberal Party and its support of the military. Just because Harper talks a lot about the military, though, doesn’t mean Granatstein didn’t intend the criticism for Canada’s New-ish Government (TM) too.
    I think he’s been pretty consistent and not duplicious.

  20. Sorry to keep babbling about CPAC , but just heard the ceremonies will be re-played tomorrow (Wednesday) at 12 NOON Eastern, 9 AM Pacific.
    Yes , ‘been around the block’, I know the feeling.
    I managed to keep a stiff upper lip , despite occasional, free-flowing tears.
    BTW , CPAC is really on it tonite , with other amazing stories.

  22. Ted writes, “Granatstein has been a pretty regular and severe critic of the Liberal Party and its support of the military.” I’d appreciate documentation rather than a mere assertion.
    Ted, your logic eludes me. If a person criticizes someone who deserves it and then criticizes someone who doesn’t, you seem to consider the mere fact that criticism is continuing as “pretty consistent and not duplicious”. How’s that?

  24. Lookout:
    Hunh?
    You are the one accusing him of being duplicious because he is criticizing the Conservatives (how dare he!) when you think he means the Liberals.
    I’m guessing you think he is duplicious because you think he didn’t criticize and was maybe favourable to the Liberals. That ain’t the case. He’s a known critic of the Liberals. Do your own work if you are going to make such accusations.
    The logic is that someone who thinks there should be a lot more done for the media might think that both the Liberals and the Conservatives aren’t doing enough. If that logic escapes you, perhaps it is because you think Mr. Harper is not to be criticized under any circumstance?

  27. Ted, just respond in a straightforward way and back up your own statements: that’s not my job.
    And please don’t put words in my mouth: I did not suggest that PMSH is above criticism.
    Re Granatstein: He still seems duplicitous–it’s not “duplicious”–re dissing “the government”: the PCs have been in power for 15 months. When someone criticizes “the governmemt” for lack of action, the assumption is that it is the present government.
    As I said, I heard Granatstein try on this little trick for about 25 minutes on a recent TVO program. Even though it was clear from the context–to someone in the know–which government he was referring to, not once did the word “LIBERAL”, in relation to the offending inaction, pass his lips. Now, another person has mentioned this phenomenon during the Vimy coverage. Duplicitous is the definitely word for it. Get used to it.

  28. I don’t know, lookout. But if Jack Granatstein, the so-called “dean of Canadian military writing” is criticizing Conservative efforts in “rebuilding” the military, then you ought to be paying attention. Given how critical he is of the Liberals regularly in the Globe and in his 2004 book “Who Killed the Canadian Military?”, he could not be MORE critical of the Conservatives than the Liberals so your claim of him being “duplicitous” is still a little baffling.
    I don’t know about your background, but methinks the man knows what he’s talking about.
    book review and place in history: http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.cgi?path=114831094733875: “Granatsteins
    “take no prisoners” assault on the educational “left” engendered a bitter counterattack, and the fight was on.” “Granatstein ends his book with an
    impassioned call for money and resources for the
    army so that it can defend North America,
    participate in the war against terrorism, play a
    meaningful role in peacekeeping operations, and
    act overseas with its friends and allies “when and
    wherever Western and democratic interests are at
    stake” ”
    Biography: http://www.cdfai.org/fellows/jackgranatstein.htm: “In 1995 he served as one of three commissioners on the Special Commission on the Restructuring of the Canadian Forces Reserves (chaired by the Rt. Hon. Brian Dickson, former Chief Justice of Canada), and in 1997, he advised the Minister of National Defence on the future of the Canadian Forces. He is a member of the Advisory Committee of the Dominion Institute, an adjunct fellow of the University of Calgary’s Centre for Military and Strategic Studies (1997- ), and Chair of the Council for Canadian Security in the 21st Century (2001-4). He is both a Board member (2004- ) and the Chair of the Advisory Council of the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute (2001- ).”
    The guy has published more books than I have lived.
    But LO! The man doth dare to not be super positive of the Conservatives. Attack! Attack! He must be an Evil Duplicitous Liberal Hack!!
    The funny thing about Conservative kool-aid drinkers is that anyone who dares criticize a conservative must be an evil Liberal.

  30. If you want to discover where a relative is buried, check the Commonwealth War Graves Commission:
    http://www.cwgc.org/
    (Not that that is what everyone above was looking for, but still, on topic.)

  31. “Most of the world quickly forgot the strategically irrelevant victory (in that the hill that was overtaken, once overtaken, did not provide any strategic advantage).”
    I’d be interested to know if Ted has ever been to Vimy Ridge.
    It’s very true that, operationally, the victory was tempered by the Allies’ inability to exploit gains and follow through with an immediate pursuit.
    But standing up there looking out eastward over France, you realize the “strategic advantage” immediately: the entire coal-mining region of Lens was now completely exposed.
    This was why Vimy was so important to the Germans: possessing it provided the security to exploit those mines for their own war effort.
    That’s strategic.
    I live in the UK so I went over to France last Saturday. On Sunday I was in Arras for the freedom of the city ceremonies. I even got to shake hands with Michael Ignatieff who was pleasant, engaging and as proud as the rest of us to be there. No partisanship that day.
    On Monday, I was at Vimy for the ceremonies. I cannot describe what it was like to be there other than to make a few short observations:
    1. The French could not have been more genuinely gracious and hospitable. M. de Villepin was in top form and struck me as very sincere and moving in his tribute, particularly his thoughtful mention of our latest casualties.
    2. I sat next to a very elderly French gentleman. As we chatted during the course of the ceremony, I learned he was a retired professor who, as a small boy, had been at the original dedication in 1936 with his father and recalled seeing the King and the President of France. He has visited the site many, many times and insisted in being there on this day. Another elderly Frenchman had given up his Easter weekend with his family to volunteer with a local veterans’ association. Why? Because he felt it was the right thing to do.
    3. No one who was at the ceremony would think that our Prime Minister was anything other than respectful, sombre and considerate. His French gets better every time I hear him.
    4. The Queen, as always, looked great. She too spoke French (people tend to forget she was taught the language early on as a wee girl). Prince Phillip was there too, decked out in his Canadian Army uniform as Colonel-in-Chief of the Royal Canadian Regiment.
    5. As “been around the block” very rightly pointed out, Sierra Noble was amazing. There wasn’t a dry eye in sight when she performed; a performance that might well have done more than anything else on Monday to bring the 20,000 of us all together.
    6. Our sailors, soldiers and airmen looked good. Both the pipe band and the air force band played extremely well – tightly and professionally. Our soldiers appeared fit, well drilled and seemed to represent just about every cap badge you could name in both the regular and reserve army – a nice touch and a fitting one, given the all the numbered battalions that made up the Canadian Corps.
    7. The French Air Force timed their flypast of four Mirages right on the money. Most impressive.
    Vive le Canada! Vive la France!
    Apart from the ceremony, I also took time to visit various war graves. I’ve got more and more in the habit of visiting not only Commonwealth cemeteries now but also French ones and, yes, German ones too. They are most moving and sobering places to visit, and give one pause to think.
    Ninety years on, whatever quarrel we had with the Kaiser has long since slipped into history. But all these fathers and sons remain: British and Imperial troops (for that is what we were then), French poilus and German soldiers too.
    A sad and terrible thing indeed.

  32. Oh, I almost forgot.
    Three flags were flying at Vimy throughout the ceremony. Two of them were obviously the flags of Canada and France.
    But the third was the Dominion Red Ensign of the day (not the later version superseded by our maple leaf flag in 1965).
    I found that a hopeful sign. Someone, somewhere in the organizational machinery for this ceremony had enough historical perspective to make this gesture out of respect for our history.
    In a recent article by Mark Steyn, he quotes Richard Fernandez (an Australian?) mentioning the “political divisions in the modern world between those whose concept of a nation is its people and traditions and those who conceive of it as an ecosystem delineated by a United Nations-approved boundary.”
    That old Dominion flag, flapping in the breeze alongside our national flag, imbued me with at least a small sense of optimism that someone out there understood how we came to be what we are today.

  33. Well, Ted, maybe you should get some help with your language processing because, despite the verbiage form you, you’ve managed to miss my point.
    The criticisms I heard Granatstein making were clearly against the Liberals, whose government had starved and belittled the military for well over a decade.
    Did Granatstein make this clear? No, he did not. In fact, though the Conservatives had been in power for about a year, when he gave the TVO interview, he always attributed inadequate action to “the government”. As I’ve said before, in context, “the government” would be construed as the Conservative government. Neither Granatstein nor Steve Paikin, the interviewer, made any attempt to correct the misconception, which, methinks, may not have been a misconception at all, but a deliberate slur.
    I made an attempt to contact Mr. Granatstein at one of the many organizations with which he is affiliated. I emailed a message with my concerns. I never heard a word.
    I might be quite wrong about him and his motives and would appreciate it if anyone with some solid information could give some feedback on this.

  34. Thanks, JJM, for two thoughtful, moving, and inspirational posts.
    I think that “someone” you mention has to do with our Conservative government and our fine PM, who do things altogether differently from the depraved Liberal Party. I too feel optimism that things aren’t “as usual” in this country. Let’s hope things continue that way.

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