My apologies for getting to this so late – I’ve been out most of the afternoon.
Open thread. Please stay on topic.
Results at CBC, (though at certain points in the evening, they were having problems keeping the facts straight.)
From the comments, this observation – “Green Party in Que garnishes less than 4% of the vote. In the media so-called hot-bed of Kyotoism.”
Indeed.
This from reader “dast” has merit, I think;
Coyne’s analysis around his claim that Charest was Harper’s man, “and make no mistake” about it, is completely flawed. The Charest vote is a one-for-one federal liberal vote which, as things stand, is a vote for Dion. Moreover, every single anglo Quebecker would understand this to be self-evident.
If one excludes the anglo population, the fracophones are pretty evenly devided between the left and right. And I don’t mean Coyne-type pseudo “conservatives”, but the real freedom-loving types, like they have in Texas. If these right wing fracophones have voted PQ in the past, it’s probably because they found Quebec’s leftist anglos and the Coynes of the ROC so bloody offensive.
Harper’s man in this election was in fact Mario Dumont. Indeed, every single Dumont vote was already a Harper vote, and is certain to be one for the foreseable future. I’d say that right there is Harper’s majority.
While it’s evident that the MSM are factually challenged and wildly biased with regard to Harper and conservatives, many Conservatives take the MSM’s “facts” about Quebec without question. Consider that ‘Quebec separation’ is an idea that both the federal and Quebec provincial Liberals are desparate to keep alive; it’s the clan war of which they are half. The leftist Quebec media, both english and french, also owe their existance to the clan war; it’s the only narrative they know.
What is always left out of this narrative is the fact that there is absolutely zero chance of Quebec separating, and there never really was much chance. Most PQ voters don’t even consider it. Yet it’s that fiction that has kept the federal liberals in power forever. Pro-sepratation rhetoric or anti-separation rhetoric just gets Liberals elected to Ottawa. Please remember that. Separation is a fiction!
It’s not often you see Coyne say something as daft as that, but saying Charest is Harper’s man is just unimaginably daft.
Anyone can glance at the electoral map and see the overlap between Conservative areas federally and the heart of the ADQ support. Not to mention common themes between the Conservative approach and ADQ’s – decentralization, tax cuts, less bureaucracy – the ADQ even support private health care and school vouchers.
And other than in the far west Quebec riding of Pontiac, the Conservatives have effectively zero support among Quebec anglos.
It always amazes me at just how out of touch the chattering classes are with the Quebec heartland.
We could send a sympathy card to the CBC.
If anyone needs a laugh go to page four of Ottawa Citizen today for picture of Nancy Drew Holland walking in the rain with Mouthpiece Jennings, he has the Brolly over HIS head only and gawd, do they look important! They’re followed by workers pulling carts of boxes, supposedly left by
Conservatives when they left that building.
Is there a law about looking through someone else’s mail or is that just covered by having scruples?
But if you want truly breathtakingly daft commentary, you can usually count on Jeffrey Simpson. On the night the PQ finished in third place Simpson had this to say:
The Quebec election results — a feeble Liberal minority — illustrate the continuing disengagement of the province’s francophones from Canada.
Yeah – voting for the most ideologically conservative party in the country is obviously much worse than voting for socialist separatists. I couldn’t read the rest.
Has Dumont become Québec’s Prime Minister in waiting?
He’s got a great deal of housecleaning to do before that can happen.
First of all, being a populist, his party has attracted more than its fair share of marginals who’ll either have to be expelled ( two candidates actually were during the elections) or reined in and told to shut up.
His team has no experience and it’s mostly composed of individuals who’ve absolutely no background in the field of politics.
Since he is the official opposition with all its perks and advantages, I think he’ll protect and even promote the minority gov’t until such time as he feels that he and his party are prepared and able to govern properly. As it stands, almost everyone around him, apart from just 3 or 4 individuals have no experience or credentials and are virtually unknown to the larger public.
What’s more, Mr Dumont has a reputation of being strong-willed, difficult to work with and is prone to imposing his views against the wishes of party members. He’s surrounded by many impulsive loose cannons and his biggest challenge of all is to make sure they’re kept well under controle.
Overall, though, Québec elections are more exciting than the Stanley Cup playoffs, aren’t they?
“CBC Online wrongly reports Charest’s re-lection”
“This is CBC reporting bias at its worse. The CBC Ombudsman should really hear about this.”
How can it be biased if it turns out to be true? It’s not like they can influence anybody’s vote when the polls have already closed. When they reported that Charest had lost, was that bias too?
Dumont now has an opportunity to drag the centerline in QC politics back to the right. Up til last night the “centrist” position was a matter of how close the center dared go towards nationalist socialism.
We shall see if Dumont has the stuff of statesmen or becomes another ideological cameleon QC poli.
The first test will come in his pposition on the Quebec equalization extrotion racket…will he agrre to continue robbing Alberta to top off the excesses of a economically profligate socialist QC government or will he take a belt tightening approach….don’t hold uer breath on this one folks.
What’s more, Mr Dumont has a reputation of being strong-willed, difficult to work with and is prone to imposing his views against the wishes of party members.
Yes, while I’m happy to see the ADQ gather support, I’m not sure I want to see Mr. Dumont as premier. He’s a bit of a megalomaniac and the party is really a one-man team.
The ballot actually identified the local ADQ candidate as “The team of Mario Dumont”, as opposed to just identifying the candidate and his party affiliation, like the other parties do.
It will be interesting to see if the ADQ can build itself into a real party.
Charest’s effort to buy votes failed miserably. Happy spending, Stephen.
Anyone claiming that the ADQ’s success here bodes well for Harper would have a good deal more credibility had they said so before the results came in.
The french aren’t all as lefty as the typical stereotype of them would suggest. France for instance almost elected a hard right (some might same pseudo facist) into high office lately.
“His team has no experience and it’s mostly composed of individuals who’ve absolutely no background in the field of politics.
Since he is the official opposition with all its perks and advantages, I think he’ll protect and even promote the minority gov’t until such time as he feels that he and his party are prepared and able to govern properly. As it stands, almost everyone around him, apart from just 3 or 4 individuals have no experience or credentials and are virtually unknown to the larger public.
What’s more, Mr Dumont has a reputation of being strong-willed, difficult to work with and is prone to imposing his views against the wishes of party members. He’s surrounded by many impulsive loose cannons and his biggest challenge of all is to make sure they’re kept well under controle.”
Sounds just like what Stephen Harper faced when he became leader of the Alliance party and then the new Conservative Party. And that doesn’t seem to be working out too bad…
Excellent commentaries, dast and vitruvius. It’s an important shift in Quebec.
Finally, they are rejecting being a ‘kept’ society, a socialist welfare state run by a centralist top down authority.
The federal and separatiste camps were actually two sides of a coin. They promoted an identical welfare socialism; the only difference was ‘who paid the bills’. The Liberal/federal camp had the Federal gov’t pay the bills. The separatistes had God and the Fates pay the bills. But, the social structure was identical.
Now, finally, incredibly, the Quebec people themselves are taking charge. Dumont is, like Harper, speaking to the Working Family. They want a good and decent life for themselves. They aren’t interested in being told what and when; they want to make decisions.
Separatism, that utopian side of the Liberal coin, is dead. That’s because it did not empower the people; it simply continued the welfare state, funded by dreams.
Dumont’s small gov’t with options empowers the people. He talks about private as well as public health care, funding to families to make their own decisions about child care, less gov’t, less welfare, etc, etc. He rejects separation and promotes a decentralization federation.
This WAS a referendum on the old style separatism, and it lost. It was also a referendum on a welfare state socialism supported by the Liberals. It also lost.
What won was decentralization with more powers to the local people.
At Dumont’s gathering – I saw one supporter wearing a Stephen Harper hat. That’s what it’s all about.
A wonderful election. Now, hopefully, this new Quebec gov’t will last at least 18 months, to give Dumont time to build his party and get some of those very important motions in operation.
Oh- and the Green party non-appearance showed that Quebec rhetoric and hard-nosed practicality are two different things.
This is also
Coyne couldn’t be more wrong. Harper is grinning ear-to-ear today. Dumont is his man (in many ways, his clone); Charest is just his lackey; and his enemy, the PQ, is decimated. Dumont now holds all the cards; Charest is now putty in his hands.
There could not have been a clearer signal sent: Canadians from coast-to-coast very much like what Stephen Harper is doing.
“Green Party in Que garnishes less than 4% of the vote. In the media so-called hot-bed of Kyotoism.”
Recall that in 2003 they got 0.44% of the vote. So 4% isn’t a groundswell by any means, but at least they are registering now.
Crabgrass,Iberia et al have no comprehension of QC politics. It was ADQ support that lead to the CPC breakthrough in the the last federal election. CPC and PLQ have very little in common. The result indeed bodes well for PMSH.
Both federal and Qc libs are the last bastion of scared anglos on the island om Montreal
Not particularly surprising that the greens did not have a breakthrough…in an election this close, where nobody knew what the outcome would be, nobody wants to waste a vote on a party that has no chance of being a player.
And note how the ROC MSM pundits have all got it wrong. Jeffrey Simpson’s column of today is even more simplistic and ignorant than most of his other columns.
That statement, that the Liberal minority represents the ‘continuing disengagement of francophones’ with the rest of Canada is garbage. Simpson is old style centralism, a relic of the 1950’s 1960s. The Liberal minority with an ADQ opposition (which Simpson ignores) means that old style welfare state socialism supported by the federal trough is dead. As is separatism.
What is emerging is decentralization, a national federation of provinces with, each, more power. Exactly as envisaged in the BNA act before Trudeau et al got to power.
Then we have John Ibbitson, with his multiculturalism fetish, moaning that Quebec is turning into an ‘intolerant’ state. No it isn’t; it is rejecting multiculturalist group identities and asking for a collaborative and integrated rather than isolationist population.
Coyne is a centralist.
But Canada is ready to move into its original plan, sabotaged by the centralism of the old Ontario-Quebec alliance of the 1950s and on. This original BNA plan is decentralization, with more powers to the provinces and less to the federal. That’s exactly Dumont’s ADQ proposal – and Harper’s proposal.
jlc, it’s true that I don’t have a good grasp of QC politics. I was confident though that no matter the outcome of the election, it would be touted here as a great victory for Harper. How would you have responded to a decisive Liberal victory?
I also believe that Québecers felt that Harper was trying to push voters toward Charest and did not approve of his meddling. Of course I don’t know for sure, but neither do you.
Last night Dumont called the results “a new path”. It will be a bumpy, cow path but at least it gets us underway to cleaning up a big mess.
What our politically correct MSM does not mention is the dominance of the unions in the Quebec economy. The labour unions are corrupt bullies that are affiliated formally and informally with organized crime. A good example is Alphonso Gagliano, Chrétien’s former Minister of Labour !!! ; who was reputedly associated with organized crime, before Chrétien sent him to be Ambassador to Denmark .. actually when he arrived, there was indeed “something rotten in Denmark”.
The middle class in Quebec are fully aware of the Hells Angels compounds in their communities with their drug dealers and worse, and they have had enough of it. Dumont understands these issues and yes maybe he sounds a bit like a one-man-band megalomaniac .. just like Giuliani did when he cleaned up New York and its unions and mafia.
‘Quebec separation is dead’.
BS.
There is $3 billion in equalization payments with a $750 million tax break for ‘needy’ Quebec families that plainly says that it isn’t.
The clearest message from this Quebec election is that the ‘equalization’ principle is deader than a doormat in this country.
And PM Harper would be wise to officially kill it completely.
Otherwise the western provinces will elect leaders to do it for him.
Crabgrass – I worked for and voted for the ADQ as did many anglos especially off-island where we are not so timid). I would have been greatly disappointed by a decisive lib win.
PMSH was saying don’t vote PQ, not vote lib.
Whither provincial powers?
In 1981, George Jonas wrote an essay-article entitled: The Last Word.
The essay opened with:
“It is likely that Canada will soon have a new, patriated, amended constitution.Inevitably, such a reformed constitution will curtail provincial powers.”
This was done by the Trudeaupian Liberals. Provincial powers were diminished. The provinces were henceforth to be vassals of Ottawa; beggars to be scorned; a mediaeval patron-client relationship. The provinces were assigned their seats below the salt.
At last, the Liberal-socialist state, centralized in Ottawa, has fallen.
The original Canada is now rising as the phoenix rose from the ashes.
The West led the way.
“But westward, look, the land is bright!”
(A.H. Clough)
Who cares if Charest Harper’s man. Tories will benefit from some of his votes, plus some ADQ, and their teams of volunteers. That organization could net them 5-10 more seats, with attendant growth in Ont, if voters there see credibility in Que. Dion should shave off, in addition to Liberal votes, some soft Bloc.
Liberal theme next election will be to stop CPC majority (which really revs up the troops). If this new Que dynamic plays out in fed politics, LPC dead ducks, with CPC majority distinct possibility now.
Before we launch into federalist group hug, consider that Green vote, if it disproportionately hurt PQ, up and coming dynamic (cleavage?), which could translate federally by hurting NDP most.
Dumont in good spot. Doesn’t really have to make decisions, just appear statesmanlike, and train to be next Que Premier. Politics are fickle so, on je jamais sais.
While not disaster at all for Dion, Harper seems to have lucked out again
By recognizing Quebec as a nation and by addressing the percieved “fiscal imbalance” between the federal and provincal governments, Harper effectively marginalized the soft nationalists taking separtism off the table as a major issue. This enabled 70% of Quebecers to vote for non-seperatists parties. For this Harper deserves credit and is rightly seen as the big winner as Quebecers can now consider other important issues which might appeal to the Conservative voter (pro-family, tax-cuts, health care reform).
The former bastion of socialist utopianism has turned decidedly right.
Is that iberia, crabgrass, and the rest of the pablum eaters on the run?
I’d say it is a disaster for Dion, without the antogonist separatist party in the ‘unity’ narrative, the Liberals are doomed. Not to mention Dion’s only accomplishment in politics is the now moot Clarity act.
looks like the 5 million clock will tick over in one or two days. early congrats Kate.
And on a less cheery note, the results in the riding of Mercier may be foreshadowing the next big thing in Quebec politics. The hard-left-Islamist alliance of Quebec Solidaire with candidate Amir Khadir finished second with 29% of the vote. He came within 4% of winning his seat.
Not a happy sight, but fortunately it was only one riding. But then the ADQ was only a threat in one riding not too long ago.
You are exactly right ET. I agree even though I just did not know how to word it. It is the BNA act being resurrected. Amen to that.
The best result I read last night was AL GORE HAS JUST BEEN ELECTED IN SHERBROOK, can’t remember who wrote it. The way the msm was jumping around on who did win, it could have been Gore. Did the green vote cause any problems with splitting any vote. Only getting about 3% of the total vote, May must be in total shock. Didn’t polls have them at 13%.
Miss Daisy, don’t knock pablum if you haven’t tried it. Strained plum is tops.
Where do you think PQ voters unhappy with Boisclair parked their vote?
Still, if you like the Conservatives, you’ll be pleased to know I just had a burger and fries for lunch, which I think truly paves the way for a CPC majority.
“Dast” must remember that the Outaouais had all provincial 5 seats go Liberal, whereas the same region split three seats in the last federal election (1 Lib, 1 Bloc, 1 Con). These five seats are not Liberal votes, but at least a split, and at best Harper votes. The anglos of the Pontiac know this, and “Dast” would do well to remember it, as well.
You want to know about the ADQ? Ignore the media, ignore Coyne, Wells, et al — they only filter out the real story.
Do yourself a favour and read the ADQ’s platform: http://adqaction.com/media/ADQ_Program.pdf
More conservative than any provincial party in Canada on most issues — especially the core provincial issues of education and health care.
The media only talks about Dumont’s “autonomy” story as it relates to Quebec — but it’s more than that, it’s autonomy (freedom of choice) for individuals and families versus the state enforcing its way.
ET
I actually agree with everything you just said in your post. Jeffrey Simpson sounds more authoritative when he writes about Robert Mugabe rather than Mario Dumont! I think his idea of the ideal Canada is having francophone Quebecers forced into watching reruns of the Beachcombers ” so as to better engage themselves within Canada”
Dion was on a rant against Harper at a ‘press conference’ today re the Quebec election.
He basically blamed Harper for the Liberals not getting a majority, saying Harper interfered in the election with bribes and by saying he preferred to work with federalist government in Quebec.
Of course the Liberals never used bribes in Quebec. Wonder what he would call ADSCAM?
Dion was on a rant against Harper at a ‘press conference’ today re the Quebec election.
He basically blamed Harper for the Liberals not getting a majority, saying Harper interfered in the election with bribes and by saying he preferred to work with federalist government in Quebec.
Of course the Liberals never used bribes in Quebec. Wonder what he would call ADSCAM?
Is Charest leading the provincial liberals to the same result Paul Martin took the federal liberals.
Majority, minority and defeat. I think voters in Quebec are still in the mood to punish all liberals, possibly until all those missing millions are returned, and 12 lib mps are outed for receiving said stolen money.
Not one network even mentioned that as a possibility for the loss of so many seats.
couldn’t get past the title of this post…
kinda just breezed to the bottom to post an apology..cause i really should try, to focus on the the importance of events in quebec in regards to canada..but numbness at the realization that the vortex that is quebec is robs my brain of any more…ahhh back to the card game
What exactly has Quebec given to Canada? Oil? Mining?Lumber?Potash? Why are they a have not province? Is because of crooked politicians? The Church? We pay a hefty price for their votes. As far as I’m concerned they are still a little off the mark when it comes to politics. Maybe the quiet revolution is still happening.