Bumped to top, with updates. Scroll down for new entries…
CTV;
The federal government will introduce a motion recognizing that Quebecers constitute a nation within a united Canada, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Wednesday.
“Do Quebecers form a nation within a united Canada? The answer is yes. Do the Quebecois form an independent nation? The answer is no, and will always be no,” Harper said in an address to the House of Commons following question period.
“The Bloc Quebecois has asked us to define that, and perhaps that’s a good thing, because it reminds us all Canadians have a stake in the future of this country.”
He called on his federal colleagues, and also to their separatist counterparts to, “do what we must to keep this country strong, independent, united and free.”
Have at ‘er.
(It’s probably best to click the video link at CTV.ca to hear the full speech.)
Text here
Update – as anticipated, lively discussion in the comments – a lot of it more interesting than you’ll get from the paid punditry. For the record, I’m an agnostic on this. While the political maneuvering is fun to watch, I stopped losing sleep over Quebec years ago. Go. Stay. Don’t care.
That said, I think those who do can likely take this as a good sign – “it looked like Gilles was going to stroke out on CPAC”.
(Coyne, on the other hand, is under suicide watch)
Evening update – and more most excellent commentary! ….from the Land That Permalinks Forgot – “Ten reasons why Stéphane Dion cannot go along with the ‘nation’ resolution”
…Ooops:
Harper’s proposal also won the approval of Stephane Dion, the lone Quebec contender who has fiercely criticized the Liberal approach on the issue. He said Harper’s motion is “very close” to a compromise he’s been floating among Liberal leadership candidates.
Dion said Harper’s recognition of Quebecers as a nation, is more in keeping with the sociological sense of the word, whereas the Liberal resolution is more ambiguous, suggesting Quebec is a “nation-state.”
Nov. 23 followup – A history lesson from Bob Tarantino – “As you were”
Meanwhile, is it lazyness or is it literacy? 50% of Canadian media misquotes the Prime Minister. Hey – it’s why they pay them the big bucks! Just one of many examples;
he introduced a landmark resolution that will see the province of Quebec recognized as a “nation within a united Canada.”
I think the Graham got the heads up from Harper – it looked like he was going from notes.
Taliban Jack? Who knows … he says the same thing all the time.
Do you think that Taliban Jack is counting on separation to reach 80%?
“Harper did the right thing – given the nefarious political infrastructure of this country”
ET’s view pretty much sums it up for me, and i support Harper in this. Nobody likes to rant about quebec more than i do, but i find this acceptable.
And duceppes’ reaction encourages me in this view – if he doesn’t like it, it has to be good.
Sorry to say folks but we are already well down the road of nation of many nations. The precedent setting Nisga’a Treaty signed in BC a few years back and ratified by Chretien has established a new level of government.
The Nisga’a can make their own laws. The Nisga’a can vote in local, provincial and federal elections but non-Nisga’a living on Nisga’a territory cannot vote in Nisga’a elections (eg taxation without representation). This is now the template being used in other treaty negotiations and many First Nations across Canada are hoping to renegotiate their existing treaties.
As usual, Chretien is the one blame for letting cat out of the bag.
Well I haven’t heard the speech, so this is all news to me, but one thing is clear: always read ET’s comments, no matter the subject.
I don’t always agree with her but she’s always worth reading.
I want the Swedes in Canada recognized as a nation. Anything less is discrimination.
Harper basically told the bloc, if there is another referendum, all cdns will vote, not just Quebec. But, when Newman praises our PM one has to wonder his reason. This speech could possibly kill iggy’s chances next week. Perhaps those in Quebec will have to do some serious thinking, (in french and english) who will best save their province and their perks as cdns, Bloc or CPC. Now, with the possibility of income splitting coming tomorrow, is a huge majority waiting in the wings. As for bilingualism, I alway answer yes on the census form-english, ASL, and Profanity. As for those in NFLD, don’t you know that many are becoming Newbertans. My concern is with so many people moving here, they may also bring their political views. But, true blue liberals from Ont usually only vote lib in one election. By the next one they have grown up and vote conservative. Did you catch Gilles face when Harper said ALL CANADIANS, so who will vote against this except the bloc. And, will it still come up at the lib convention.
Just wondering:
What effect will it have on the lib leadership?
Does this cut Ignatieoff at the knees because he’s now a neo con?
Does this wreck Dion’s tide as he has been vehement about this?
Has Harper messed up Rae?
As Spock would say:…Interesting.
While agreeing with ET 100%, my fear is that if the PC do not win a majority in the next election this resolution will be a nuclear weapon in the hands of the Bloc—and they will almost certainly hold the balance of power, given Layton has effectively sunk the NDP federally for years.
I admire the deft political footwork of Stephen Harper, but have to agree with Coyne and others that “Canada” is finished, to all intents and purposes. If we could throw out the forces that ET so exactly delineates: the unelected bi-lingual (i.e., Quebecer) civil service, the CBC, the NGOs and the pusillanimous and treacherous federal judiciary, we might have a chance of building a nation to be proud of. But I think realistically that Ignatieff and the machine behind him have killed my country, and for that I will never, ever forgive them. Western separatism and Ontario rage are going to combine. There’s no guessing where this will go now.
ET, thanks for summing up the speech so well.
Was traveling while the Prime Minister was giving his remarks. CKNW (Vancouver), stayed with it for a couple of minutes, and then went to commercials and sports. Don’t know if they ever came back to him.
What was the CBC radio doing about it, one might ask, something as key to Canada as this……talking with a guest about baking breads.
PMSH was instumental in the Clarity Act, those many years ago….it would not surprise that he was strident in his approach today, ahead of the B.Q.’s motion tomorrow.
The Charter…now there is a whole lot of finding out what we were given, too late!
Although, I too remember my father warning what was about to come from it.
“A nation within an United Canada”
Is like a boss telling you that you did a good job on something. You don’t get any power or money out of it, but you feel good that something special you did was recognized.
Although it’s already been mentioned a few times in this thread, I’ll repeat it for those Liberals who need things repeated to them: Stephen Harper just saved your butts in Quebec. Now the Liberal leadership candidates can skirt the Quebec issue by supporting Harper’s resolution. Damn, and I was looking forward to a rather animated leadership convention!
Also, with that one move Stephen Harper has done more to advance the cause of federalism in Quebec than Chretien or Martin ever did. The happiest man in Quebec tonight has to be Jean Charest.
Wow, Lots of posts already, Lets keep this real people, The PM cut the BQ off at the knees and it must be really efficient because it looked like Gilles was going to stroke out on CPAC, not just with this motion but also by the stupid way the Bloq went about this, they have screamed for years that the Fed Govt has no say in the choices of the Quebec people but they bring forth a motion asking that the Feds recognize Quebec. Hmmm, in a court room this is called opening the door. The Political backlash is nil because the other two fed parties are going to support it because they have no real choice. If he did anything wrong here at all it is throwing a life preserver to quite a few Lib Leadership candidates which were gutting their party in full public view and now if they stop I wont have anything interesting to read on the blogs.
I have to agree with Gerry about the ‘Plains of Abraham’ except for the fact that the British never finished the job. The 60 odd thousand French that were left weren’t disposed of properly – either by shipping them back to France or sending them to a penal colony or whatever other nasty fate that one might have thought up back then.
No, they were allowed to remain and propogate and then some genius came up with the BNA – one country, two nations – and that was all she wrote.
Things have been fairly quiet for some time and if Iggy and co could have kept their yaps shut it just might have stayed that way.
Heh… shocking at first, but then we see the brilliance of the quick strategic move Mr. Harper has made. He, unlike his Liebrano predecessors, didn’t waffle or dither and has made a decision in a timely manner. And it’s a darn good one.
This is leadership. National leadership. Harper is exactly the kind of Prime Minister Canada needs!
Here’s my earliest writing on the matter, in response to a comment on my blog, just minutes after I first saw the news and before I read other folks’ initial reactions, save for one:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/canadiansentinel/116419428386486289/#190817
I think the Graham got the heads up from Harper – it looked like he was going from notes.
Hmmmmm…that might explain their recent and rather jovial exchanges on the virtues of silk during Question Period. I suggest if you haven’t read it yet, look it up. Truly one of the finer moments in our parliamentary history *LOL*
I hear arguments that Quebec is a Nation because it is french speaking . Tell me there are thousands of English speaking people in Quebec – are they now thrown to the wolves?
Prairie provinces are English speaking to a greater majority than even french to English in Quebec so are we considered a nation of English speaking Canadians out here.
Let us do away with the word province and make all of them nations instead.
Who has the guts to tell Quebec you may call yourself a nation but you don’t have any other or more rights that any other province has.
ET at November 22, 2006 04:47 PM: A great analysis. Only the PM has not gone far enough. Most Quebecois (not Quebeckers), and their elite almost in toto, are in no meaningful sense Canadians any more. Let us recognize that reality and try to preserve–against the odds–a state if not a country or nation. Please read the links in this guest-post below; a lot of satire but ultimately perhaps a modus vivendi.
“Stevie Iggie”
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/008216.html
Mark
Ottawa
Canada: A federation of independent provinces united by currency, the military and the national debt. We’ll see what First Nations types have to say about this. And of course, being a nation, they can determine whether they want to opt out of the Canada Health Act, the military, etc. But Harper is right and it’s time somebody finally addressed it. Trouble is, he’s shattered the illusion entirely that Ottawa controls the provinces, navigates the ship of state,etc., which to my thinking is great. But if that’s the case, then they should bow out of matters provincial and just oversee defence and the treasury. Frankly, it’s hard to believe after all these years of Liberal-centric gov’t that people still believe that Ottawa can best manage our lives.
Since World Wars I and II, the concept of nationalism has been wrongly discredited as causing Wars. Thus trans-nationalism was in , un-elected institutions like the EU and UN became temples for the Tanzies. Because of Canada’s insecurity caused by the separation threats of Quebec and the dominance of the USA we have never asserted ourselves as a nation and instead adopted Euroweenie ideas such as multiculturalism. The Liberals took us down the path of the Tranzies. Ottawa became like Brussels in the EU, full of expensive apparatchiks.
But thanks to Iggy, suddenly nationalism is on the table again in Canada. It has its risks but I prefer it to multiculturalism and the political correctness that shut down debate in Canada for decades.
Canada is very regionalized. Quebec is a distinct region and so is Alberta and Newfoundland. Let’s deal with it and stop the politically correct appeasing approach. A return to the BNA Act and the division of powers makes a lot of sense. Quebec can call itself a nation or whatever it wants to, as long as I’m not on the hook for its $120 billion in debt.
This Nation whith in a nation is a nutbar idea.Harper has lost it.If Quebec wants to leave lets give them a push.How can they make it alone without transfer payments from the rest of us.Lets face it, they have been on welfare to long now.They don’t get the whole proverce either.
Notice the Headlines use the term “Quebecers”.
Stephen Harper was careful to use the term “Quebecois” (sorry don’t know how to put the accents on).
That’s a big difference because it effectively says that the province is not unique but that the francophonie have a distinctive society.
Harper has let the Libs off the hook on the eve of their divisive convention. When your opponents are self-destructing, don’t stop them.
As for Duceppe’s motion tomorrow, I think Harper could simply have dismissed it: unacceptable if it defines special privileges for Quebeckers, a symbolic waste of time if it does not. Either way it is not worth discussing and there would likely be no harm in voting against it, even in Quebec. They’re grown-ups, believe it or not.
I’m with you Kate. All those damned people have done for me is provide several corrupt sacks of excrement for the PMO.
I think it is time to break this country up. It obviously isn’t working anymore.
ET that was one of the best post’s I’ve read in a long time. It made me think of how I just accepted someone elses decison’s without useing my own brain. Quebec has cost us so much, with so little effort.
Kate, you might want people to respond to this CTV Poll: Do you agree with the government’s motion that recognizes Quebec as a nation within Canada?
On the CTV website’s main page.
I haven’t read the comments yet.
I HAVE TO HAVE MY SAY.
What bright spark came up with this? They should be fed to the press.
It comes back to the so-called “soft nationalist” vote, a mythic thing with which wishfull thinking anglos are beguiled by the blackmailing quebec sirens.
THERE ARE NO SOFT NATIONALISTS.
There are nationalists, who would do anything to spite anglos; federalists who will vote for the strong, reliable federalist party; and then there are the blackmailers.
Enough with the Danegeld.
I am not willing to go around this mulberry bush again. If this becomes an issue, I will SIT OUT THE NEXT ELECTION.
The conservative party will gain nothing in Quebec with this. The only way to win votes is to be federalist or nationalist. The Liberals are still mud; the CPC are still federalist. The CPC will still win seats by being straight, honest and conservative and federalist.
grrrr … gnashing of teeth …%$### /.. grrr.
Of course the real issue here isnt the separation (or not) of Quebec.
I am impressed at the adroitness of the Prime Minister in dealing with a potentially explosive issue.
I am surprised at Coyne who is as Kate updated looking for a couch and a sympathetic ear.
I again urge everyone to listen to the whole speech, and think of what would have happened if Mr Harper had done nothing.
Our Prime Minister was impressive, he laid it out clearly, sorry folks i see nothing but good from this
As long as I live I will remember the expression of Duceppe’s face when he came to the realization that Stephen Harper had just succeeded in simultaneously knee-capping him and gelding him by introducing this motion…Gawd, it was beautiful…
Great move, PMSH…
I like ET’s take on things.
Also, this by nomdenet:
“Since World Wars I and II, the concept of nationalism has been wrongly discredited as causing Wars. Thus trans-nationalism was in , un-elected institutions like the EU and UN became temples for the Tanzies. Because of Canada’s insecurity caused by the separation threats of Quebec and the dominance of the USA we have never asserted ourselves as a nation and instead adopted Euroweenie ideas such as multiculturalism. The Liberals took us down the path of the Tranzies. Ottawa became like Brussels in the EU, full of expensive apparatchiks.”
My Canada includes Quebec. Either that, or it doesn’t.
Think of the billions of dollars ROC would save… hmm, I like the idea.
By the way, Harper outperforms… as usual.
*ahem*
that would be “expression ON Duceppe’s face”…
Bruce
“PMSH has pre-empted the motion that the Bloc were going to introduce on Thursday”
True, but had it been ignored by everyone else, like not even turn up to vote, it would have been forgotten as yet another BQ cheep trick.
Now Quebec’s “nationhood” within Canada is going to be recognized by parliament, one more step down the road for the nationalists.
Yes. PMSH may have pre-empted the bloc’s motion. But the BQ’s motion would have been meaningless if no one else showed up to discuss it, even the speaker.
The whole thing should just have been ignored.
I still have some thinking and digesting to do on this whole issue but on the surface of it I am thinking that this could very well be a masterful political coup by the PM. My cautious side also tells me that such a move could at some point enable the “complete” nationhood of Quebec. I, as a Canadian, may be willing to take the gamble that it won’t have that result. I’m sure that PMSH carefully considered that and every other angle to such a strategy. I believe Stephen to be very thoughtful and shrewd – like him or not.
If it has the intended result, it may begin a long period of transition where “seperation” will become an issue for the history books studied by out great grandchildren. I truly hope it does. We (Canada) have been engaged in this endless dialogue and now two referendi by Quebecers and we find ourselves no further ahead. I think that this is an innovative move (althought first suggested my MI) that will hopefully take us on a new and more productive path to a truly united Canada.
I have read with great interest the comments by contributors to this blog and have been impressed (with the most part) by the respectful diversity of positions and the significant number who are willing to give this initiative a try. A good idea is always worthy of support. A new and untested idea, presented by a respected and very intellectual person such as our PM is also very worthy of consideration and debate. Let us all be fair and contribute in a constructive manner. This is not “politics” at stake but or “country”.
Notice also how Ignatieff is racing to catch up to Harper. He’s on TV everywhere, claiming that he is the origin of ‘Quebec is a nation’; that the whole thing is due to him..blah blah.
But, his agenda, right from the start, was only about votes. First, to get the Quebec delegates to vote him in as leader; and second, to get Quebecers to vote for him and the Liberals in a federal election.
Duceppe’s agenda was the same; votes – to prevent any resurgence of the Liberal Party in Quebec; remember, the sponsorship wiped them out in Quebec.
Harper had to do it; he had to ‘take back’ the debate over ‘what is Canada’, from its political agenda (to obtain partisan power), and move it back into a legislative agenda (what is the federal definition of Canada). That’s what he did.
Now- Ignatieff, who, as I said, is trying to reclaim the Top Gun status. I’m going to predict that he’ll lose the nomination to Rae. Harper has removed Quebec as a lynchpin-to-gain for the Liberals; he’s insisted that Quebec IS a nation, but within Canada. So, the delegates may well consider that now that ‘that-issue-that-cannot-be-named’ is settled, they can consider other factors of leadership. They may well consider that Ignatieff belongs only in the graduate seminar room.
Frankly, for most Quebecois, that mode of recognition will do for them. They have no desire to move very far away from the money till.
They have, for the most part, no interest in and little knowledge of, the rest of Canada. I lived for quite a few years in Quebec – not in Montreal- which is not representative of Quebec. But – in that ‘outside land’ – it was readily clear that the ‘land’ ended at the provincial borders.
The world was divided up by language; Canada and the USA were one nation, by language, and both were rejected. Canada was simply The Bank, handing out money, because, somehow, it was all Quebec’s money anyway (I didn’t get the logic of this; possibly there wasn’t any). The hard reality of this division was quite astonishing; the indifference to the ROC was equally astonishing. In the academic world, networks and associations were primarily to other francophones; the anglophone and allophone world didn’t exist as a reality; you’ll find the same isolationism in France.
I think this will assist Quebec in ‘settling’; Quebec has a much more difficult reality to face – its economic structure – a Living On Top of The Clouds – that is refuses to deal with. That’s what is going to stump Quebec, and no attempts to build up more clouds by Being A Nation, will stop this.
I love it.
Yup, you’re a nation. Just like First Nations, part of Canada.
Now can we get back to the grown up issues?
Wimpy:
If I understand the Government motion correctly, it recognizes that the PEOPLE of Quebec are a nation. The BQ motion proposed that the TERRITORY of Quebec was a nation, and one independent of Canada.
In my mind, a huge difference.
You posted: “Had had it been ignored by everyone else” etc.
Well then, clearly the motion would have passed. Not a particularly good thing, given than a Parliamentary motion that passed would have been trumpeted by the BQ as “proof” that Canada would support the separation of Quebec from Canada.
And as to the term “nation”, for how many years now have we used the term “First Nations” versus the term “Indians”.
Not that I necessarily agree with the switch, but last time I looked, I haven’t seen band councils establishing consulates in other countries.
But Nomdenet, you are being willfullly blind. It is precisely the $125 billion of debt that Quebec nationalist politicians consider a part of Canada. In their merry world, they would be more rich and have more “socila justice” than France if only they were free.
ET ?
“By another emotional tactic – calling them a ‘nation’. It was a deliberate political tactic by Ignatieff.”
So, Ignatieff is a political arsenist. Do you think he should be put in charge of the fire brigade?
On another note, isn’t this just another classic liberal divide and conquer strategy? haven’t we had enough of this?
brian
“The 60 odd thousand French that were left weren’t disposed of properly..”
No, they were properly treated. This was the British way: they did not attempt to re-adjust the locals. They simply brought in the rule of British common law, slowly local government, and voila!! The largest, most benign and influential empire in the world since the Roman empire. It was a good thing.
ET:
As usual, I am struck by the insight and clarity pf your posts (especially the one at 8:14).
You should write a book. (Although given my experience, you should be prepared to work for about $1.75/hr)
Lee Pentney, “considered the spot the BQ motion put him in”
No such thing. The BQ motion should have been ignored, just no one show up for the day; or have some parliamentary obscure rule make it a non-motion day. Easy.
the best thing to do was ignore it. Spolied children crave attention.
Kingston, maybe the BQ was cut off at the knees, but they have gained another inch; another argument.
Yes Bruce, it would have passed, but its passage would have revealed how rediculous it was, and therefore it would have been meaningless.
And your argument as to the “first nations” is self-defeating as the “first nations” use the very European meaning of the word “nation ” to demand full nation state status.
Quad Errat Demonstrandum mate.
This begs some questions:
1. If Quebec is a nation – is Newfoundland? Nunavut?
a. If so, then what is the difference between province and nation?
2.Is English Canada a nation?
a. If so, does this mean that an English-Ontarian is a member of both the Canadian Nation and Canadian State(country)?
b. If so, does this mean that an Ontarian is 2 times more Canadian than a Quebecer?
c. If so, how can a Quebecer ever think they have the ability to be Prime Minister if they’re less Canadian than the guy selling hot dogs outside the skydome?
The Prime Minister has betrayed the hard-working party base – the group of people who worked day and night to get him elected. This is one of the most basic issues of principle. This is one of those issues that is so important that – even though I respect almost everything he’s done in the past and am proud of his foreign policy – I will not vote for or work for this party until it renounces this act.
Sounds like Harper is talking about a giant reservation for the citizens of Quebec. Does this mean they will begin migrating throughout Canada in search of beaver and buffalo?
I guess its the word NATION that has a lot of people spooked.
Mr, Harper explained it clearly, but i suspect many people didnt hear anything other than NATION.
And im going to say this one more time, lol
Its not Quebec as a nation
Its Quebecois as a nation
I so enjoyed watching PM Harper’s speech today. It was like watching a brilliant chess move. He was left with no choice but to deal with this. With Iggy opening the can of worms, Duceppe’s dropping his little bag of dung on top, Harper, put the fire out.
First, the split in the Lib’s will widen and it sure got a rise out of Duceppe (he was hot under the collar). The rug has been pulled out from the Lib’s and Duceppe. Now, hopefully this will be a dead issue.
Wimpy Canadian,
Harper could have dodged the issue for a day, a week, maybe a month but he couldn’t do so indefinitely. The Bloc was bound to introduce this resolution at some point and I am surprised that they hadn’t done it sooner.
That said, Harper might simply have referred to Chretien’s distinct society legislation in 1995 to defuse this and ignored the Bloc resolution.
HOWEVER, the bottom line is the federal govt., not the Assemblee Nationale defines what country Quebeckers belong to.
A brilliant speech. Probably his best.
Harper has elegantly and almost effortlessly defused a potential constitutional time-bomb that the haplessly naive Count Ignatieff created before the “nation” debate could be used by the Bloc for their own nefarious ends.
Think of it as Clarity Act part deux. The Conservative’s symbolic yet meaningless “maitre et tarte de pomme” motion will pass in the house and the matter will be at an end. No further debate. No ongoing constitutional morass. The sleeping dog of the Quebec nation will be comfortably back asleep again curled up by the cozy federal fireplace.
Yeah, it would have been fun to watch the Liberals twist in the wind and swallow their young on this issue for a little while longer.
But, with the Bloc poised to make nation-rending mischief from the Liberal’s blunder, the PM was right to put partisanship aside and put an end to this silly, yet devisive, charade.
Watching Duceppe face’s today, as it began to sink in just how badly he had been outflanked by the PM on this issue was priceless.
Heck, even Bill Graham and Stephane Dion were sighing with relief as they applauded Steveo today.
Wells is right. Underestimate the current tenant of 24 Sussex Drive at your peril.