Hamid Rizvi (Toronto), in the National Post;
What French philosophy professor Robert Redeker has to realize is that Muslims in the world are not against him because he is practising freedom of speech. Islam values the rights of every person and their right to express their opinion. Expressing their opinion is different, however, from openly denouncing or insulting the beliefs and religion of someone else. When Muslims in the world retaliate against such opinions — or the Danish cartoons — they are not trying to eliminate freedom of speech. Instead, we are trying to eliminate the unnecessary hatred against us that is based on completely false facts and analysis.
The fact that someone could call the Koran a “book of inherent violence” tells us how ignorant and uninformed that person is about our religion.
Secondly, what I found interesting was Prof. Redeker’s comment, “We must distinguish between Islamists and those responsible Muslims out there who should without a doubt support me.” I find it hard to understand what he is looking for. Does he want moderate Muslims to support him when he is insulting the basis of our religion without putting in the time and effort to understand it completely? Even though he will not face a violent backlash from moderate Muslims, Prof. Redeker will not gain any kind of support or encouragement either.
Muslim “reactions” and “retaliations” against supposed “free speech” are not coming out of thin air. In fact, authors such as Prof. Redeker are adding fuel to the fire and expecting it to extinguish itself. There is a simple solution to these “violent” retaliations. Let’s keep practising free speech, but eliminate the ignorant insulting of Muslim beliefs. The retaliations will stop. It is pretty hard to clap with just one hand.
Not all mulims are radical extremists as potraid by the liberal left-wing news media
Where can I send money to you Penny. Great idea.
I urge you all to read this weeks issue of Western Report as it has a preview of Mark S. new book-America Alone. Also a great article that is sending the greens and environmentaliswackos into shock. The world health org has just lifted its 30yr ban on DDT, saying it should never have been banned as used properly it stops malaria. Too bad these wackos are responsible for millions of deaths in Africa from Malaria. Will they apologize. New slogan Greens lied, people died. Rachel Carsons book was all a lie. That is from the UN, who these people trust. Did you know that in Germany it is against the law for men to stand up to urinate. Millions of toilets have been sold, that if you lift the lid, a voice tells you standing is not allowed and you could be fined. Any travellers experienced this.
The success of the “West” was our ability to rapidly increase our population, keep them alive and healthy and export them around the world. That’s why we’re in Canada now. Secondarily, by exporting people, we exported ideas that are now adopted by non-Westerners. Thus the West has expanded beyond the geography of its origins.
The Jihadist world has been kicking our butt for almost 4 decades now. Debate, Reason, Posts on a Blog, these are the actions of a civilization without the balls to procreate or kill its enemies. You may disdain those burqua clad women all you want. In the time it took you to read this, another little Jihadi was pushed out into the world by them.
Not that I think this will make any difference to some. Still, it might. Who knows? No harm in trying, I guess.
spurwing plover – so what? The point is not that ‘not all Muslims are extremists’ but that 99,999% of all terrorists are Muslim. That’s what matters.
neutralsam – you are extremely biased; scott ritter’s ‘conversion’ from his former hawklike aggression against Iraq, including his statements about their ownership of WMD, to his new dovelike memory loss of his former statements, is well documented, as well as his arrest for child sex solicitation.
When are we going to wake up and outlaw these radical extremeists and their centuries-old barbaric cult of oppression, mayhem and murder?
They and their so-called religion of peace should not be allowed into civilized nations.
I hope and pray that more and more of these radical clerics do feel offended and ostracized by our society – offended enough to get the hell back to the cesspools that spawned them, and out of our lives forever. And good riddance.
A thought excercise for the Muslim haters here:
Is there anything about Islam that you do like?
Is there anything about the increasing influence of Islam in western society that you do like?
Just curious.
neutralsam,
You are a propagandist of the worst order.
If as you say the “true power in Iran rests with the Supreme Leader… Ayatollah Khamenei… who “control(s) the military, the police, the nuclear program, all the instruments of power.” and “who, has issued a fatwa that says that nuclear weapons are not compatible with Islamic law” –then please explain why Iran is developing nuclear weapons even in the face of world wide protestations.
As to your asssertion that Khamenei … “in 2003 actually reached out to the Bush administration via the Swiss embassy and said, “Look, we would like to normalize relations with the United States”…please provide some links to back up your story- which, even if true, would only prove that Bush, in 2003, was not as naive as Clinton, in 1994, -or are you aware that North Korea has built nuclear bombs nothwithstanding that they agreed not to?
Iran has had every opportunity to normalize relations with the United States. They need only give up their quest to go nuclear and stop exporting terrorism. You clearly don’t recognize, or should I say, prefer not to recognize, dissimulation when it is staring you in the face.
Please explain how it is possible for the United States to have normalized relations with Iran when Iran is sending fighters and IEDs into Iraq to kill American soldiers.
And finally please explain how Bush is supposed to dominate the middle east when he can’t even get 50% of his own country to go along with the idea of fighting al Qaeda in Iraq until they are eliminated.
Bob,
Here’s an exercise for you.
Is there anything about Western society that you like?
Is there anything about the vast influence of Western society on Islam that you like?
Careful, your head might explode.
neutralsam,
Here’s an Iranian who doesn’t agree with your purported sunny view of the Ayatollah
http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=2
Dont forget to dip your bullets in pigs blood before you shoot these dung heaps.
Terry Gain – excellent comments. Thanks.
bob- the error you are making is the same as the writer of the original column in the NP – rejecting free speech, free thought, the right to critique and question.
What you have done is to state that anyone who critiques an ideology ALSO rejects and hates the human being who holds that ideology. That’s ridiculous.
I critique the Athanatian interpretation of the Christian Trinity, which is the predominant interpretation; does that mean I hate all Christians?
When someone critiques a political ideology, say, a rejection of private health care, does that mean that the person HATES all people who promote private health care?
Get with it. Don’t make the error of merging ideas and people. That’s what extremists do.
Now, as for Islam – do I find anything to praise about it? No – and I’ve discussed it before – it’s a social and political ideology that developed in the 6th c, within a pastoral nomadic tribalism, to protect its land base against the expansion of settled agriculturalism, settled by Christians.
I don’t find anything in its axioms worthy of praise and a great deal worthy of serious criticism, particularly, its rejection of life. That includes its focus on death, its rejection of questions, debate, its rejection of analysis and reason, its rejection of Others, its insistence on conquering rather than collaborating with others.
It is a passive perspective, operating within a mindset that rejects individual accountability and insists on blind obedience. In this sense, it is a ‘peaceful’ ideology – NOT, NOT because it advocates peace because it advocates constant war, but because it REJECTS DOUBT in the individual mind. You, the individual, are not supposed to think, question, doubt. This is very peaceful. Also known as BrainDead. But, it’s peaceful. Nothing to worry about.
So- I reject it; Islam hasn’t had a scientific thought since it began, and it never will, as long as it rejects life, living, analysis, exploration and focuses only on the Glory of Death.
Bob, I can’t say as I have bothered to explore Islam. Why should I or anyone with principles waste time studying a cult which advocates/condones the promotion of itself through violent means?
Perhaps you could explain to us what is so appealinmg about extremist Islam???
Bob: Guess what, there is one thing in islam that I think we could all agree on. According the Mark S new book, it is against islam to collect interest on loans. But again, so is violence.
ET,
Thank you for your kind comments. You are one of the reasons I come here daily. Kindest regards.
Terry
Bob,
Out of curiosity, are you a muslim hater? Do you support equal rights and protections for women? Do you support common family law for all Canadians and therefore exclude the use of sharia law? Do you despise sentencing Christians who converted from Islam to death? Do you value the right to publish dissenting opinions on matters of faith including Islam? Do you support Israel’s right to exist? Do you think Islamic terrorists are murderers?
If you answered yes to any of the above questions there’s more than a few Imams and mullahs that would put a big “Y” on your behalf in answer to the first question. Even though I believe that most Canadians harbour no feelings of animosity or hatred towards our fellow man or woman irrespective of faith, our western beliefs of rights, freedoms, democratic government and rule of law put us in diametrical opposition to much of the leadership in the Islamic world.
Muslims can choose to be grossly intolerant of others but then they shouldn’t be surprised when the same measure gets applied to them. If they choose to export violent radicalism don’t be surprised when non-muslim nations take up arms to oppose it.
I vote to keep our western beliefs. How would you vote, Bob?
“Is there anything about Islam that you do like?”
Sure, that they’re in the minority here.
What do I like, oh lots of stuff
1) The Charity
2) Schwarma
ulm….I am running out of things here somebody….anybody
3) Overflowery poetry and rhetoric
oh oh running out of things again
4) Virgins…..
ulm……
5) Virgins….oh sorry I said that already
oh I know
6) really good quality rugs.
ulm….thats about it….is that enough
What can one say? This is the same drivel we hear all the time.
It boils down too.
Do not question us, never disparage us, or Islam, or we will kill you. After all the flowery rhetoric is erased this is the essence of the threat if we do not capitulate to their demands.
Its not the professor who is hiding for his life that’s out of touch with Muslims. This fellow shows its the reverse. He has himself has no clue how Westerners think, or what real freedom of speech is.
That he just calls this natural human Right an opinion, expresses his ignorance as no other statement.
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with manners or submission out of respect. Its the Inherent right of an individual to disagree or expose with impunity that with they perceive is untrue & express this. The converse is logically true as well.
He neither states where Prof. Redeker is wrong. Neither does he point our how the Koran is not violent.
More evasions. Only Crocodile tears mixed with a false wounded victim hood , shame on you for hurting our feelings. Excuses for rioters ,killers, who condone murder threats. Than to top it off with the old standby threat of even more violence. From there being persecuted. Even with out any proof. That one does not believe Islam is proof enough to them of insult. That we put up with these dogs in a manger seriously as adults, is a sign of moral rot in ourselves.
Frankly I am wearied at these protestations of supposed injustices, by mere words from this group of totalitarian bullies.
“Is there anything about Islam that you do like?”
Well, Bob, their food is pretty good. Although, I’m not a big lamb eater, ME food is pretty good. Of course, I never order it thinking about Mohammed gnawing a similar kabob cooked by little Fatima.
Dhimmitude, jihad, burqas, stonings gays and adulterers, genital mutilations, fatwas, polygamy, 72 virgins, gender segregation…. a little hard to get past, Bob.
But, Bob, too often naughty lefty’s throw out questions at SDA that do get immediately answered, so, in keeping with the spirit of responsible dialogue, and I’m asking everyone to hold your feet to the fire on this, how about answering Doug’s direct question to you….Is there anything about Western society that you like?
I have my question for you too, Bob. What are the things that you like and admire about Islam? Those qualities that should give it moral parity with the west?
We’re waiting, let’s not be naughty and try to slide into another topic. I know you won’t.
neutralsam:
Spin all those fairy tales to the family of the Iranian Canadian Lady Journalist. That was killed in Iran. After being tortured & raped.
How many raped girls have been stoned this year in Iran? How many honor killings? I suppose they love children & apple pie too. Considering they used there own young as mine sweepers. Yup, Iran is a jolly place.
I suppose the messianic minded dwarf running Iran, who thinks he’s the modern Elijah to the so called “coming Madi” should not worry us either?
Give it up Dhimmi.
Largs posted:
“Well felis tell me one western government that wasn’t developed by means of revolution. Please don’t say Canada, it is after all modelled after the British system which was formed through acts of rebellion against a tyrant King.
Yes we have evolved beyond that, or we like to think we have at least. My point was and is that we will not take it forever. There will come a time when even the meekest of us will say that we have no cheeks left to turn.
BTW don’t take my response as a criticism your points are well taken. I am after all a polite, tolerant, Canadian:)
Posted by: Largs at October 16, 2006 04:06 PM”
Hey, I’m ok with all that. My points were simply that the West didn’t have a monopoly on all that violence and that there was more to the rise of the West than just violence.
I certainly do hope that even the meekest of the meek will one day refuse to turn the other cheek. I just hope it won’t be too late by then.
I’m mostly, but not completely, ok with PlaidShirt, his 4:57 post:
“The success of the “West” was our ability to rapidly increase our population, keep them alive and healthy and export them around the world. That’s why we’re in Canada now. Secondarily, by exporting people, we exported ideas that are now adopted by non-Westerners. Thus the West has expanded beyond the geography of its origins.
The Jihadist world has been kicking our butt for almost 4 decades now. Debate, Reason, Posts on a Blog, these are the actions of a civilization without the balls to procreate or kill its enemies. You may disdain those burqua clad women all you want. In the time it took you to read this, another little Jihadi was pushed out into the world by them.”
but I’m still hoping that Debate, Reason etc. aren’t incompatible with maintaining and using a good set.
Pax Vobiscum
MaryT writes:
“Did you know that in Germany it is against the law for men to stand up to urinate.”
I love this blog.
Say, Bob. Still waiting for an answer. What do YOU find appealing about Islam?
Think hard now….
While I don’t believe the Danish cartoons can be considered a work of art, others have decided that we don’t have the right to publish. I disagree.
While I don’t believe the Danish cartoons can be considered a work of art, others have decided that we don’t have the right to publish. I disagree.
Re: “MaryT writes:
“Did you know that in Germany it is against the law for men to stand up to urinate.” ”
Oohhh! Bummer.
While I don’t believe the Danish cartoons can be considered a work of art, others have decided that we don’t have the right to publish them in Canada. I disagree.
Well, Bob, I’ve never considered myself a “Muslim hater” as you put it. But then, that’s a predictably cheap shot on your part, almost as cheap as Budd’s silly “KKKate” routine.
Until 9/11, I had no particular feelings towards Muslims at all.
I never agreed with their stance on Israel, but that was a political issue rather than a religious one. I don’t agree with their religious beliefs, but then, I’m a Catholic so that should be no surprise (though on the central issue, the existence of the One True God, I’m definitely onside). I do like their food which is pretty good and beats the hell out of Big Macs. I’ve never had any sympathy with the twits who go and work in Saudi and then run into trouble for illegal drinking (they knew the rules; they were happy to take the big money).
I actually tend to sympathize with them over the liberties taken with images of Mohammed – or at least I would sympathize with them if their response to such things wasn’t so frenetic and lunatic. I note that no one particularly fears a “death fatwa” from the Catholic Church for sticking elephant dung on a picture of the Blessed Virgin Mary and calling it “art.” I have to tolerate this sort of thing in a free society so Muslims do too.
My only close day-to-day contact with a Muslim community was in Bosnia-Hercegovina. But the Bosnian Muslims have always represented a pretty laid back, Turkish form of Islam (they are well aware of the Wahhabist infiltration of their mosques and I can tell you, they don’t like it).
All this to say there is a clear structural problem in Islam right now and Muslims appear to be in complete denial about it. Sadly, I am not optimistic about their ability to cope with the current trend towards the further radicalization of their faith.
There are no doubt “Muslim haters” out there; some are simply racists anyway, but I’d suggest a good many others have become that way because of the present intolerant and imperious tone of far too many adherents of Islam.
Muslims who complain that the West is somehow forcing them into violence by insulting their religion (a lame statement in its own right and redolent of a thin-skinned inferiority complex) cannot have it both ways: they should not be surprised when their own constant verbal – and physical – attacks on our institutions get our backs up at last.
Bob
“Is there anything about Western society that you like?” – Doug
“What are the things that you like and admire about Islam? Those qualities that should give it moral parity with the west?” – Penny
Still waiting for your answers…..
From Mohammad’s brutally vicious mass-murder of 600 Jewish men after the battle of the Trench, right through to the Christian/Armenian genocide and then the Eastern Pakistan/Hindu genocide in the 20th century – I’ve not found anything positive about Islam.
But then, I might be horribly biased.
In the spirit of this admission, I’d like Bob and Budd to enlighten me with the positive aspects about Islam that I’ve so obviously missed.
Bob? Budd?
Like Penny and others, I am waiting for Bob to answer the questions thrown at him. But I’m not holding my breath.
Bob:
1. No.
2. No.
Plain enough?
SOMAS
JJM:
A “laid-back, Turkish” form of Islam…..I guess Muslims there can afford to be laid back now. Their ancestors during the tenure of the Ottoman Empire took great delight in pillaging/ransacking/raping/enslaving the original Christian inhabitants of that part of the world.
“SonsofMonkeysandSwine”:
And the United States was once home to a massive slave population.
Stick with the present tense, chum, or you’ll end up no better than those lunatic Islamists who still blame us for the Crusades.
“SonsofMonkeysandSwine”:
And once upon a time, the United States was home to a massive slave population.
And the Germans murdered over six million Jews.
Stick with to present tense, chum, or you’ll end up sounding no more cogent than the lunatic Islamists who still blame us for the Crusades.
Apologies, Kate, for the multiple postings. My error.
JJM
And so was the Muslim world, up until relatively recently (1960’s or 1970’s).
Nice example of moral equivocation, CHUM.
Next time you comment on it, try to know a little history.
SOMAS
Maybe Bob is saying Islam as a true religion is, like any other, peaceful. This is not the same as militant Islam, morphed to Islamic fundamentalist fascism. The sharia-totalitarians are far worse a curse for Muslims than Westerners. It is this brand of Islam that has caused its civilization to founder, yet they blame their own and the West, then declare war. Yes, we all are at war with the fascists; and we should all be against them. Why aren’t we? Oh yeah, it’s Bush’s fault. What a cop-out. While clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer who idiotically invaded Iraq, must he be responsible for everything? What gives Iraquis and foreigners there the right to slaughter civilians? Because they were invaded? Go ahead, murder people by the hundreds, but Dubya killed 600,000. Just blame George for everything and the terrorists will go away, right? By all means, let’s negotiate with, say, the Taliban. They are the good guys, right. It’s Dubya who’s the terrorist. This stuff never ceases to amaze me.
Ok for all you ignorant people out there I am going to say this once, and if you don’t understand it now then you never will.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with free speech- there is something very wrong with people speaking about a topic that they know nothing about but claim to know everything about.
All the comments stating that the Islamic religion is a violent one check again!
No Muslim under the rules of the Koran is permitted to physically harm any living creature unless this is done in self defence. How is that a religion that advocates violence??
Just because a small group of extremist have decided to do what they wish and claim it is under Islamic order it does not give the media or ignorant runts like you to insult this faith.
If you don’t agree with it and would like to make a rude, disrespectful comment then all I have to say is use your own brain and do your own research rather than reading the news and making ignorant assumptions before doing so.
And you call this a civilized nation! What ever happen to common curtesy and respect for others? That is the type of “civilisation” you should strive for.
Ok for all you ignorant people out there I am going to say this once, and if you don’t understand it now then you never will.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with free speech- there is something very wrong with people speaking about a topic that they know nothing about but claim to know everything about.
All the comments stating that the Islamic religion is a violent one check again!
No Muslim under the rules of the Koran is permitted to physically harm any living creature unless this is done in self defence. How is that a religion that advocates violence??
Just because a small group of extremist have decided to do what they wish and claim it is under Islamic order it does not give the media or ignorant runts like you to insult this faith.
If you don’t agree with it and would like to make a rude, disrespectful comment then all I have to say is use your own brain and do your own research rather than reading the news and making ignorant assumptions before doing so.
And you call this a civilized nation! What ever happen to common curtesy and respect for others? That is the type of “civilisation” you should strive for.
Remember to dip your bullets in pigs blood.
I wish some of you bloggers got their views published in a paper, that way we can see the mentality of the true blue tory.