(Images from CWC)
Also – Here’s a bit of info about the “rock and golfball throwing” incident. Brave Mohawks indeed – small wonder they hide their identities behind ladies’ hankies.
UPDATE – Toronto Star;
A judge is ordering an end to negotiations between the province and aboriginal protesters over a contentious tract of land until the occupiers move off the property.
Superior Court Justice David Marshall says the talks must be suspended until the barricades come down at the Caledonia, Ont., housing development.
Marshall issued his order today after holding several hearings to discover why his previous orders to remove aboriginal protesters have been, in his words, “blatantly disregarded.”
His tough talk would be more convincing if he threw a few high ranking officials in the slammer for contempt of court.
Snowbunnie,
You’re an idiot. By my own words, the lands were extorted from them, and a few individuals whose ability to represent them was and is seriously questioned, were rounded up to put a veneer of legitimacy on the entire sordid affair.
Read the words in front of you, grab some facts, and stop wasting everybody’s time.
nancy,
If you have a source about the Christians complaining about the corruption of the traditional band chiefs I would be interested to know what it is.
I think that I’m justifiably dismissive of hypocritical calls for the “rule of law,” of racist and ignorant statements, and empty whining and demands. (For instance, people who believe that the OPP can, and should, clear the disputed lands, without causing another Ipperwash, but who when pressed are unable to describe how the OPP could possibly achieve this.)
If you can bring a fact-based argument to the table, I’m more than happy discuss it with you. But after Ipperwash, Walkerton, NAFTA, Iraq, Palestine, etc., etc., ad nauseum, I’m afraid that i have neither the patience nor the inclination to give right-wingers the benefit of the doubt. Hence my snarkiness.
Snowbunnie,
You’re an idiot. By my own words, the lands were extorted from them, and a few individuals whose ability to represent them was and is seriously questioned, were rounded up to put a veneer of legitimacy on the entire sordid affair.
Read the words in front of you, grab some facts, and stop wasting everybody’s time.
nancy,
If you have a source about the Christians complaining about the corruption of the traditional band chiefs I would be interested to know what it is.
I think that I’m justifiably dismissive of hypocritical calls for the “rule of law,” of racist and ignorant statements, and empty whining and demands. (For instance, people who believe that the OPP can, and should, clear the disputed lands, without causing another Ipperwash, but who when pressed are unable to describe how the OPP could possibly achieve this.)
If you can bring a fact-based argument to the table, I’m more than happy discuss it with you. But after Ipperwash, Walkerton, NAFTA, Iraq, Palestine, etc., etc., ad nauseum, I’m afraid that i have neither the patience nor the inclination to give right-wingers the benefit of the doubt. Hence my snarkiness.
My source was in a masters paper written by a person with a very native name. However, I read it so long ago that I have no idea where I found it. (I know it was a google search) I will try again to find it but I am not going to spend much time.
Natives have little room to criticize Treaty obligations. If the country were to live up to treaty rights to the letter they would still only receive one horse, one plough, 5 dollars a year etc.
Their medical would be a first aid box containing some aspirin, guaze bandages and seneca root. On a good day they may be transported to Montreal hospital by canoe over a 300 mile journey.
Liberals ignore judges order: Caledonia residents fear ‘all hell will break loose’
Ontario said today it will appeal a judge’s order to end negotiations in a five-month long Indian standoff. But residents fear ‘all hell will break loose’ if occupation doesn’t end. …-
nealenews
Thwap:
Found it although my memory sucks. His name is not remotely native sounding and they don’t speak of corruption just that a minority of Christian Haudenosaunee wanted a more democratic government..silly Christians. Interesting comments in that section though with regards to the Mohawks.
“You’re an idiot. By my own words, the lands were extorted from them, and a few individuals whose ability to represent them was and is seriously questioned, were rounded up to put a veneer of legitimacy on the entire sordid affair.”
I thought by now you’d get a clue, noone gives a shit about “your own words”.
Laws in this country are for everyone and the native terrorists aren’t above them.
On a side note, I do believe that you’ve generously gone above Kate’s three post maximum on one thread.
Summary: Give it up, nobody here is listening.
May I post more than 3….I actually live here and personally witness some of what goes on!
Land claims are jurisdiction of the provinces, why else would the provinces be getting in up to their eyeballs? It’s up to the feds to do get into the constitutional stuff. Let’s hope they do, but don’t hold your breath. It’s time to sort this out, we should not have to tolerate such behaviour.
multirec,
didn’t know about that rule. thanks for the info.
I don’t care that you don’t care about my words, so weez even.
I was just correcting somebody who kaynt reed.
I see i’ve reached my quota.
Thwap, you’re continually looking at this (and most other subjects) subject from only one angle… A tactic that you and many others at that idiot trove called babble employ constantly.
The land claim at Oka was legit. I give you that. The forcable removal of the “warriors” from that site became legit and necesssary the second those idiots started walking the barricades at Oka with automatic weapons. A police officer was shot and killed by natives in that one (subtle hint, NONE of the quebec police were equipped with wheapons firing a 7.62×39 cartridge).
This scenario is gettting just as bad. All that is missing now is the parading around of weapons. Attacking people with baseball bats, and lacross sticks, tearing down hydro towers, setting fires, tearing up roads, moving into the houses on the occupied land, using the power, opening fire hydrants (which is a HUGE community safety hazard, as it drains the water pressure on that ENTIRE line… If there had of been a fire on that line while that hydrant was open, the ability to fight said fire would have been severly compromised).
The police have choosen to try and give peace a chance, and have extended HUGE lee way to the so called Six Nations police force, which has proven to be biased and incompetant. Yet people like you slander the police for the same reasons people on the other side of the barricades slander the police.
This one is either going to end soon, on peaceable terms that the province is attempting to offer (and to date has been snubbed on), or it will end violently. If the latter comes true, look not further then the Six Nations tribal elders for blame.
Children. They are all acting like children. If you think the rest of Canada is coming on side with this land claim, they are not. There is a deep wedge being driven deep here that is setting relations back 100 years, if not more. Perhaps if the childishness carries on, we can roll back 400 yrs and start fresh… Is this the thought pattern of the IDIOTS maning the barricades?
Beardy Cree wrote:
Thank God none of you are the politicians in this Ontario, because every one of you has advocated for an escalation of this situation.
But just who would be responsible for the escalation?
What you are saying is that if the OPP enforced the court orders, the natives occupying the land would respond with violence – and therefore, it’s better not to try to enforce the court orders!
That is called giving in to intimidation. And what message is that giving to other would-be native protesters? I’m afraid that if the Ontario government doesn’t enforce the rule of law now, even with a violent response, we will see a future confrontation which will make Oka and Caledonia pale in comparison.
As for Dalton McGuinty being afraid to be the person “identified in canadian history as the person that stoked up the flames to make another Oka” – is it too much to ask of a politician to consider something other than his image?
thwap: My command of English is pretty good, and while I do tend to screw it up once in awhile, the point is still there, but thanks for asking.
Anyway, back to your discourse on the incorrect usage version of the word “first”.
You said: “We were the first people there” (well no, it should be properly stated “here” – keeping with the context of the discussion – as in we are talking about this country, here, where we sit in front of our computers – unless of course you are posting from outside Canada…but I digress).
When the term “we were the first…” is used in a context of a defined group of people, then yes, you are correct.
Unfortunately the word “nations” as in plural is not a defined group of people.
Besides, you already stated the plural tense with the word “WE” as in “we were…”.
So in using the plural tense “nations” right after “we” is a double application or in layman terms, repeating yourself.
Akin to “more better”, or “worser and worser”?
If you had said “we were the first members here”, then that is appropriate, because again it defines a select or distinct group of people, as in a track team at a race.
Basically you are saying “we were the first nations here”.
For that to be true, I have to ask, who actually is/was the first nation – as in singular reference then?
And secondly, what constitutes a “nation”? The natives back then (and still do) despise other tribes, killing, maiming and ransacking each other’s gathering places (note: not to be confused with villages or other established places of gathering – must have made mail delivery a bugger. Oh wait, they were super advanced nation(s), using wireless communications even before white man thought of it – smoke signals…)
So yes, if you said “we were here first” – that would be a proper group usage term.
Unfortunately I still have to ask, which distinct group would you be referring to as “first nations” seems a bit vague?
…oh, and then there’s the matter of who the Six Nations are…
Where they the first? As in like the NHL, the original six teams?
But, dang, that still refers to a distinct group of people.
OH well.
…so lessee – if Six Nations was first, that would make First Nations seventh, or last, therefore First Nations is not really first but Last Nations.
But if Six Nations were really First Nations, then First Nations would really be made up of six nations and the first First Nation would the be the real first nation and the sixth nation would be the Last Nation.
Or if First Nations were first then Sixth Nations would be second, so the Second Nations would be the Sixth Nations, not the sixth nation as that would the seventh nation, or Last Nations.
Dang this is so confusing…
Actually in the Caledonia situation the Six Nations didn’t arrive in Canada until the 1700’s.
Tomax7:
Thank you for your posts!
Very enjoyable with my coffee this morning.
Let’s see.
They form illegal blockades.
They intimidate their neighbours with language and threaten violence.
They use violence against those who either dare to stand up to them and question their actions, or simply have the misfortune to get in their way.
They wantonly destroy public and private property.
They fly the flags of terrorist organizations, and imply solidarity with those organizations.
They weild baseball bats, etc, and hide behind masks (small wonder).
I say: Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck -IS A DUCK. These protestors are nothing more than a collection of hotheads, thugs, and wannabee terrorists.
And it’s way past their bedtime – inside a few, well secured jail cells.
snowbunny:
Yes I did stay up all night….
😉
…so lessee – if Six Nations was first, that would make First Nations seventh, or last, therefore First Nations is not really first but Last Nations.
“Jeff”
“Thwap, you’re continually looking at this (and most other subjects) subject from only one angle… A tactic that you and many others at that idiot trove called babble employ constantly.”
And the people who are tossing the word “terrorist” around at the drop of a hat, the people who are saying that the First Nations have no legitimate grievances in Canada, and the morons who called for the OPP to clear the f’n Indians off the disputed lands the very next day after the occupation began, … these racists and fools have objectively considered all sides of the issue before they typed their dreck?
I would explain to you the qualifiers of my position, if only you were worth it. By reserving all your criticism for my supposed extremism and none for the hate-filled ignorance of most of the rest of the posters here, you have demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt your total hypocrisy. You don’t even know the significance of your own words.
“Tomax7”
An extended discourse revealing an exposed idiot, grasping at straws in a futile attempt to redeem itself.
My example sentence: “We were the first people there” was just that, an example. I’m not First Nations. Actually, I’ve pointed that out several times. I’ve never been on the “Price is Right” either. You can have hundreds of firsts you moron. You can have six, ten, twenty, etc., … The people who were living in the Western Hemisphere before the Europeans began to settle here are called “The First Nations” for that reason. Quit being such a contemptible ass.
“And secondly, what constitutes a “nation”? The natives back then (and still do) despise other tribes, killing, maiming and ransacking each other’s gathering places (note: not to be confused with villages or other established places of gathering – must have made mail delivery a bugger. Oh wait, they were super advanced nation(s), using wireless communications even before white man thought of it – smoke signals…)”
So, are the Americans a “nation”? Were they a “nation” before their Civil War? Were African Americans part of that “nation” when they were being enslaved? During the period of French colonization, that country was racked by the wars of religion (The St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre). So, the French weren’t a nation? If you’re only trying to insist that the First Nations can’t be called “nations” because of their “savagery,” well, there’s two World Wars that I’d like you to go and find out about.
I realize that I’m well over my supposed quota of 3 posts per thread. But two people have made absurd responses to me, and I thought they deserved comment. Three posts, nay, one-thousand posts wouldn’t be enough to clear out the mental sludge exhibited in most of the threads here.
“multirec”
“I thought by now you’d get a clue, noone gives a shit about ‘your own words’ … Summary: Give it up, nobody here is listening.”
Really, thanks. I’ll remember that the next time I encounter another right-wing circle-jerk about how the Left is afraid of genuine debate. I realize this is futile. I’ve long-since given up caring about the stupid opinions and shameless lies of the right-wing myself. I just thought I’d disturb your blissful ignorance for the sake of doing it.
“nancy”
I hadn’t yet said anything about the Six Nations Christians for you to anticipate that I’d call them stupid. But with regards to corruption: the federal government has set up all sorts of elected band councils and they all appear to be corrupt as well. I’m interested in background, and legitimate points, but I’m done with this thread at long last.
So, live it up there “multirec.” Your bubble is probably as strong and safe as george w. bush’s.
Thawp, I stopped ginging myopic people like you any credit a long time ago.
What say to me, may have been worth something at one point. Since then, well see my above post. This is NOT a non-violent protest as you would lead us to beleive. It has been violent from day one, with everyhting from masked “protestors” beating people up for taking pictures, to burning private and public property, to vanadising an 89 year old’s house.
You are a nauseating little troll thwap.
Thwap:
I intimated that the Christians were “silly” not “stupid” and I was poking fun as in “why would any society in this day and age want to be burdened with democracy when they can in fact have a pseudo monarchy instead….like the haudenosaunee”.
I noticed on NewsNet last night that the Ontario government are not only ‘appealing’ Judge Marshall’s ruling but have undertaken a ‘hit’ campaign against the judge himself.
Why he doesn’t throw their sorry asses in jail for contempt of court I really do not know.
If we are to take him seriously he should be able to back up his orders instead of hauling everybody back into court to ‘explain’. Let them explain in handcuffs.
Really, thanks. I’ll remember that the next time I encounter another right-wing circle-jerk about how the Left is afraid of genuine debate. I realize this is futile. I’ve long-since given up caring about the stupid opinions and shameless lies of the right-wing myself. I just thought I’d disturb your blissful ignorance for the sake of doing it.
Do you know how utterly stupid the above comment is?
“Yep…See, the right won’t debate but then again I stopped listening a long time ago”.
Which is it ya dope?
Actually the six nations arrived in 1784, and they were only granted the right to live there, by the King’s Proclamation (not the 1763 Royal Proclamation). They were not deeded the land, however, they could live there only at the King’s pleasure, subject to change. The original land was bought by the Crown, from the Mississauga Indians who in the 1750’s were displaced from N/Central Ont. by the Franco-Indian wars and arrived in that area. The original land was owned/controlled by the Erie’s and Neutrals, who had slowly edded away, by ongoing wars with fellow tribes and the remaining few were absorded into other tribes.
In the surrender of 1841, the Confed chiefs signed documents giving up the right to live there and settling in the current Rez, which at this time, was now deeded to the Six Nations.
In the original land grants to loyalists in the Niagara region, the Loyalists were only given the right to live there at the King’s pleasure, later they did finally get a deeded title.
The left does not debate. It is not about being afraid. It is about not being able, as they are too busy assigning blame, and patting themselves on the back to be bothered with coming up with solutions and learning the facts.
Another disturbing thing about the left, is the myopia. The lefties I have encountered to date, all share this trait of beleiveing themselves as absolutly right, and hence, there is no need to try to understand a subject from different angles.
I consider myself very strongly left wing on some subjects, however, there are some subjects, like the rule of law, and common sense which have a vetoe over that, and hence, I refuse to hang out with the lefty crowd. I have found right wingers to be far more open minded, and willing to openly discuss change then left wingers.
tomax7 the last nations would be the europeeons and those with First Nations lineage would be exactly that. Not very confusing at all except for those who have their heads so far up their asses that their sphincter is cutting off their air supply with an added side effect of a red neck.
I live in this town Caledonia. The only pray we have is to support Judge Marshall. Every home in Canada should put a sign to support the Judge on it, if you care about Canada. This land is Canadian soil, not disputed land. We should not give up one inch of our land; they wouldn’t. Caledonia is the front line fight for Canada, the sooner we realize the sooner we will want to end this.
Support Judge Marshall a true leader.
I do support Judge Marshall. At some point he has to enforce his rulings. He has been ordering the natives off the land since March and nothing has been done to move them off.
This entire episode is an outrage that the judge should have been able to quash in the beginning.
When the Ontario government and the OPP stack themselves against the judge the judge then should have them taken off in handcuffs. If they refuse that, then call in the Feds and have the army enforce his order.