“I feel it’s 1938 again – Bernard Lewis *
More: Joyner has been following the updates (as have readers in the comments).
Damian Penny;
The lefty bloggers, not surprisingly, are jumping up and down with faux outrage about righty bloggers (including myself) writing about this untrue story.
So, guys, has Karl Rove been indicted yet?
Fascism — as opposed to its German variant Nazism — is not primarily, fundamentally or at least necessarily about bigotry, toward Jews or anybody else. It is about collectivism, in one form or another. It is about imposing — with both the carrot of socialism and the stick of the police state — uniformity on the entire body politic, to get all the oars pulling at the same time, in the same direction. The fact that the Iranian regime wants to enforce a national dress code which is “authentically” Iranian says more about their fascistic impulses than the regime’s anti-Semitism. Not only does anti-Semitism predate fascism by a lot of centuries, but anti-Semitism is not unique to fascism nor is it always present in fascist movements. What is always present is the desire to enforce conformity and uniformity on the masses. So breathe your sigh of relief if your concern is the maltreatment of Jews in Iran (though a small sigh it must be). But if your concern was that Iran might be fascistic, then the debunking of the yellow star story should not allay your fears at all.
May 23 Update: Amir Taheri stands by his story;
The law has been passed by the Islamic Majlis and will now be submitted to the Council of Guardians. A committee has been appointed to work out the modalities of implementation.
Many ideas are being discussed with regard to implementation, including special markers, known as zonnars, for followers of Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism, the only faiths other than Islam that are recognized as such. The zonnar was in use throughout the Muslim world until the early 20th century and marked out the dhimmis, or protected religious minorities. ( In Iran it was formally abolished in 1908).
I have been informed of the ideas under discussion thanks to my sources in Tehran, including three members of the Majlis who had tried to block the bill since it was first drafted in 2004.
I do not know which of these ideas or any will be eventually adopted. We will know once the committee appointed to discuss them presents its report, perhaps in September.
Interestingly, the Islamic Republic authorities refuse to issue an
official statement categorically rejecting the concept of dhimmitude and the need for marking out religious minorities.
I raised the issue not as a news story, because news of the new law was already several days old, but as an opinion column to alert the outside world to this most disturbing development.
Warwick:
True enough. But what I meant was US approval. NATO is not going to do anything without US approval. Canada can’t do anything on its own. Correct me if I’m wrong (note: no sarcasm intended) but we’re the first troops in Kosovo non-American? Dutch, Canadian, etc. troops are in Afghanistan.
We (collective we of the West) have to be realistic and careful about our ability to wage another war at this moment. Therefore, we have to be realistic and careful about raising the jingoistic rhetoric.
There is a clear bad guy here. The required actions are arguably even clear. But the means to get there are anything but clear.
Ted
Cerberus
Canadian Observer:
You disagree with me today but agree with me today. Glad to see you have half a brain. 😉
Let me emphasize that before Canadian Sentinel goes beserk on me: 😉
(It’s Friday of a long weekend, there has to be some room for *friendly* partisan ribbing.)
I certainly disagree, Canadian Sentinel. I don’t think that the US should attack Iran. I don’t think that the US and Americans are obliged to sacrifice their money and their military, to save the world. Particularly when the world thumbs its nose at the US. I wouldn’t blame the US for turning isolationist. It won’t, because the era of isolationism ended with the two world wars, but, boy, I’d understand that sentiment.
steve d – you rejected that the article was written by a Canadian Iranian. You immediately assumed that it was part of a ‘typical American tactic’ of setting up Iran so that the Americans could ‘go in’. That’s pretty ignorant.
You openly asserted Iraq’s innocuous existence, ignoring Hussein’s mass murder of his own and other people’s. Your description of America is clear; that it attacks the innocent (Iraq), that it does this by first defining, without evidence, another nation as ‘evil’. You said, “America’s ongoing attempt to demonize yet another “enemy” (you put ‘enemy’ in double quotes). You stated that the article was just “Iran-bashing by American CIA sources”.
You asserted that it was the Americans who “identified Iran as an evil power” – ignoring Iran’s actions in the world with its nuclear proliferation, its actions of militancy in Iraq, its treatment of its citizens (stoning raped women to death), etc. [Remember the Canadian journalist beaten to death in an Iran jail?]
You identify America as reprehensible (its voracious appetite for resources) ignoring that a large population has large requirements, and this is true of any large population – Europe, China, India, Brazil etc.
You are ranting. WHAT is American foreign policy ‘all about’? China? Don’t be ridiculous.
Imperialism? The US is not imperialistic. Do you know what the term means? Don’t compare British and US ‘imperialism’. You have no understanding of the history of colonialism if you set up such a comparison.
If you want to talk about economic imperialism, I suggest you take a look at France and Germany for a start. Then, move onto China.
No, I won’t give you a break. Your knowledge of history is abyssmal, your knowledge of economics is non-existent, your knowledge of social systems equally non-existent. The whole focus of US foreign policy in the ME is democracy. For you to say it’s about ‘free access to resources’ is such pure nonsense – it’s astonishing. THINK. How can any nation provide its resources for free???? Second, THINK. A totalitarian regime within a large multi-million population is a recipe for explosive disaster.
I bet you know zilch about social structures and population dynamics, but I assure you – a centralist, top-down gov’t will explode a multi-million size population. But, switch that infrastructure to democracy, i.e, empower the people, and the explosive causality will evaporate. You won’t understand this, since your words show that you don’t know anything about the relation of political structure to population demographics. Too bad.
Instead of automatically, like a machine, jumping into the “I hate the USA’ meme, try to consider the situation before you. What is going on in Iran? Why is it moving into such an isolate fundamentalism? Think, rather than mechanically react.
Cdn Observer “…does that also mean you want to start committing acts of fraud,theft and treason to counter those bad habits too?”
–Sigh… I see that you’ve taken pains to explain how that would be logical.
But try anyway.
Those acts are illegal. People are supposed to be tried for them and punished if convicted.
Political combat isn’t illegal. It’s a constitutional right that I found was being abused in a really dishonorable manner by mostly non-conservatives since the early Nineties and earlier. They won by it and got away with it. I saw no other way to counter it– we conservatives tried using facts, reason, logic and decorum but we remember we didn’t get to speak, for the other sides were always screaming horrible falsehoods about us, aided and abetted by the MSM! Therefore, I decided we had to fight fire with fire. If they scream at us while we’re trying to make a calm, rational point, then we had no choice to fire back and call them the same things they were calling us. Surely you didn’t want the left to win, did you? Did you want the Librano$ to win the last election? What would you have done (assuming you’re actually on my side and not theirs)?
Therefore I see no logic in your question. Terribly sorry, pal.
How’s that for being intelligent? 😉
Thank God, Saddam and his crazed sons are not getting French-Total Petroleum /UN “oil for food” money at $70 a barrel.
It is only because of the brilliant US lead Coalition’s strategy to try and democratize the ME starting with Afghan and Iraq, that we now have options with Iran. Those options would not have existed without the courageous military operations of Blair/Howard/Bush and now Harper extending the Anglosphere’s traditional leadership role to bring law and order to that part of the world.
Comic relief: Who am I missing .. Oh apologies to Giuliani .. I always like to throw him in just to unnerve the lefties.
Now what would the left do? Maybe have the Iranians register their Nukes?
Meanwhile, I’m with ET who’s with Bush, who contrary to leftist rhetoric is staying cool. Let’s continue to stay cool, not panic, an opportunity will present itself because we’re dealing with mad Mullahs, they will screw up eventually and when they do, we’ll try to find a solution that won’t unite Moderates with the Islamofascists.
Bottom line: Islamofascists already have a de facto Nuke – 1.3 billion Muslims, most of whom are Moderates. But many of whom will rise up if we fall into Iran’s trap. This is a real dilemma. Risk if we act, risk if we don’t. I’ll take my chances and wait for them to screw up even if it means they get a real nuke. Because I’m betting they won’t use it. Because Iran would be turned into glass if they did and even the mad Mullahs don’t want that.
There is an underlying reason for Iran’s belligerence of late. Perhaps the Persian Empire rises again – read Tom Holland’s excellent book for insights.
Some simple questions for those who seek to bash the US as it tries to deal with Iran: 1) does Israel have the right to exist? (yes or no required, no mamby pamby lefty feel good bullcrap answer permitted – yes, or no) 2) if answer to (1) above is no, and the Muslim (remember, Iranians are Persians, not Arabs) world succeeds in destroying Israel, does this end the conflict and result in world peace? Again, this calls for a yes or no answer.
My view is that Iran will make a first move. Let us hope that our response is swift, precise, and decisive.
I think the west is being goaded into taking action… and the result will be, the west starts another war.
The U.K., Germany, and France (with the blessing of the U.S.A.) have just finished offering a light water reactor usable for electrical purposes only. Only to be refused by Iran, so they can continue to build the Russian model reactor, capable of producing weapons grade material for nuclear bombs.
A little something to put on those missles capable of 2500 kilometres bought from North Korea?
Meanwhile, Iran sits on a +200 year supply of natural gas, just in case they want to really produce electricity from something… instead of “wiping Israel off the map”.
Who can pretend we haven’t seen this movie before?
We’ve already seen, “Holocaust Part 1”
Do we need to see “Holocaust Part 2” ?
Is there some unwritten rule that states, no more than 7 million Jews are allowed on this earth?
as for this story being a hoax, not too many of the international news wires are covering this yet… according to google.com it’s mostly conservative sources that are covering this.
The Weisenthal Center has written to the UN and Kofi Annan is aware of this… from http://www.upi.com
Warwick
America doesn’t have to invade every country. Why would they attack Canada when they get oil for 1% royalty. They take oil out of the ground for $1.15 and sell it internationally for $70 so they have no problem with Canaada that is for sure.
Maybe I should clarify. American foreign policy is at the service of American companies. If American companies are having difficulties anywhere in the world American foreign policy toward that country will be negative and often economic penalties follow and sometimes,but not every time, there will be military actions.
Iran has been cut off from American business since 1979.
Cuba since 1958
Venezuela is just beginning to be punished. They have just been cut off military parts and supplies to maintain high tech military machines. This is only the beginning for Venezuela. It will get a lot worse over the next few years.
The American way is going on in microcosim in Afganistan. The military reward a community with hard cash if they cooperate. They did the same thing in Iraq. They flew in 20 billion in cash and gave it out to anyone who helped them, or promised to.
Well, ET, I can respect if you don’t currently believe there’s any need for a preemptive strike against Iran. Frankly, I do have reservations, but I also hate to ignore the lessons of history, and the truth about Islam (been researching it in the past several weeks and my eyes were wide-open and my views on Islam were transformed when I found out what the Koran actually does say). I also hate to dismiss the horrible promises of not only Ahmadinejad, but of so many other Muslims that they’re going to start a war on the Free World as absolutely required by their “faith”.
Doesn’t matter whether you’ve any faith of any kind or not. The reality is that so, so many Muslims for a long time now have been raised to think nothing other than what Allah requires of them via the Koran, etc. And they cannot be changed. Not as a group. Those who do change face execution for it.
Perhaps we both have valid positions. Perhaps we’re “damned if we do, damned if we don’t”.
If we do nothing, then we could very well end up with a mushroom cloud or clouds in the Free World, totally unprovoked. If we’re preemptive, then it could be full-scale international war between the Allies and the Axis… and it’ll be nuclear.
Perhaps the world is effectively screwed either way.
And you cannot predict the future any more than can I; you don’t believe in that stuff, after all…
CP, aka Communist Press, slips in the weasel word “appears” which distorts the words of the Prime Minister.
CP is a left-wing MSM organ. …
Excerpt:
“The bill is not related to minorities. It is only about clothing,” he said.”
Harper slams Iran label plan
OTTAWA (CP) – Prime Minister Stephen Harper was quick to condemn Iran on Friday for an anti-Semitic law that appears not to exist. …
cnews
Steve D., where do you get your facts? American oil companies incur significant costs to get the oil out of the ground in Canada. There are exploration costs, drilling costs, pipeline access fees.. the list goes on and on. The $1.15 number you use is simply bogus. Their costs are the same as the Chinese companies who have invested in Canada.
In your haste to American bash at least post some believable facts.
steve d; again, your lack of knowledge of economics is mind-boggling.
Could you provide proof that ‘they’ (presumably the Evil Americans and not the Good Canadians’) take oil out of the Canadian ground for $1.15 and sell it for $70.00? Proof, please.
I’m sure you know that crude oil from wells costs less than $2.00, while extraction from sand costs 15-25/barrel. And, I’m sure you know about capital costs that are not figured in. But, please, provide the proof.
Please provide proof that there should not be a networked link between a country’s economic infrastructure and its international infrastructure. Canada, for example, has economic interests in China; and China has economic interests in Canada.
I’d bet you don’t know that it is companies (gosh, you dislike ‘companies’, don’t you) that alone can accumulate the capital to invest in building – anything larger than a toothpick. So, if you want cars, you’d better put up with having COMPANIES do the research and development, build the factories, hire the engineers and so on. If you want a computer, you’d better put up with having COMPANIES do the R&D, the investment and so on. If you want to travel on a road, you’d better put up with having COMPANIES, with engineers and so on, to build the damn things. Of course, a group of peasants could also build the computer, the planes, the food processing plants, the cars, the telephones, the internet..everything. Or..could they? Does it require COMPANIES?
Steve – take an economics 101 course.
Canadian Sentinel – yes, the Koran is ‘quite the book’, isn’t it? It’s violent, vicious and quite clear on its imperialist agenda. ‘Fight those who believe not in God’…and those who don’t accept Islam ‘fight them’..”until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled”. It’s an endless rant of fighting everyone who doesn’t accept Islam. How can Islam ever be called a religion of peace, when the Koran is, page after page, exhorting killing, slaying, fighting everyone?
My view, Canadian Sentinel, is that a fundamentalist, centralist regime, within a massive size population (ie in the multimillions) is so dysfunctional that it implodes on itself. The ME has been kept from imploding by its own use of military dictatorships, but, it ‘exploded’ outwards (Al Qaeda) and brought itself down that way. Iran is imploding on itself. I don’t see the necessity for the West to move in. Just don’t get hysterical, as so many of these posts in this thread are doing – and watch closely and ‘let it happen’. Iran will become more and more provocative, because it wants the West to attack. But, it won’t attack first.
That’s my view, for what it’s worth.
Again, steve d – how about reading up a bit on history, economics and social dynamics. Just a bit. Coffee shop opinions, that are without any validity, belong in the coffee shop, drowned in smoke and bad coffee.
George where have you been. Do you not follow the UN? How many times has Israel been condemned by the UN? I’ve lost count. The problem is that the international community is always quick to condemn Israel’s actions but is too scared or hypocritical to condemn Muslim countries. The Iranian leader has said that the holacaust was a hoax. I’m tired of the double standard. This is racism pure and simple.
Yes–the UN makes limp noises about Israel–but when was the last time they threatened Israel with sanctions or bombings or invasion? Israel denied they had a nuclear weapons program–when one of their own blew the whistle on them the world shrugged. Israel’s Mossad uses illegal Canadian passports and no one gives a damn. They invade Lebanon and the world shrugs. Get real–this is a double standard by anyone’s interpretation.
The whole senario is a US/Israel play to get the world on side for the invasion of Iran–and fools will fall for the propaganda again and again.
Let’s bomb Iran and “export” some democracy. Then they can have welfare, multiculturalism, human rights commissions, and status of women commissions that tell citizens they are unfit to raise their own children, like we have in our superior civilization.
Instead of drab clothing, Iranian teenage girls will be free to dress like strippers and can shop for lingerie at pre-teen lingerie stores, just like here in Canada. Instead of a theistic society, let’s impose a proper pluralistic Godless regime, remove any mention of “Allah” from the anthem and public institutions, and go after those craaaazy religious folks in the media and human rights courts.
Let’s install a good democratic court system that says Muslim kids can’t bring a knife to school but Zoroastrians can. Instead of banning TV and western music, obviously its much better to brainwash the populace with crap and to have teenyboppers rapping about “tossing salad” to the latest “50 Cent” CD. Instead of beheading murders and thieves, it would be better to have a court system that allows a mother to starve her two infants to death and only serve 5 years, like we do in Canada. Trying to score weed and horse in downtown Tehran is currently a buzzkill; a better, more democratic Iran will let drugs flow freely like we do in Vancouver.
Yes to democracy! Yes to feminism! Yes to multiculturalism! Yes to welfare!
Can.Sentinel,under many curcumstances slander is indeed illegal,but you are missing my point again.
I am talking the MORALITY of these actions.You are RIGHTLY offended when a leftie defames all conservatives as,let’s say,racist(they use so many).The fact that you then think it is somehow QUITE OK for you to slander EVERYONE on the left(that includes little old ladies too)for the actions of SOME is ILLOGICAL.
Do you not see the HYPOCRACY of being outraged when they do it,but then justifying it is OK for you to do it?A clear double standard…YOU ARE BOTH WRONG!
Also,never questioned your smarts,in fact have alluded to the opposite in the past.I wouldn’t waste my time with you if I thought you weren’t capable of “getting it”.
tony, tony, tony: speaking on behalf of the CBC, again. Hmmm.
Maybe you could defend their not headlining the salacious details of the Guite trial and ex-president of GroupAction Lambert’s testimony, saying the reason he didn’t come forward to blow the whistle on Adscam was because he feared for his life. What say you about THAT?
If this story about Iran identifying Jews and Christians IS accurate, I suppose the CBC will have missed covering it and then will use as their excuse that “what’s the point in covering it now, it’s old news.”
You guys…
Cdn Observer:
The left has won by being immoral.
However, if it is immoral to kill, but it is acceptable to go to war in self-defence by killing those who have killed and will kill more, isn’t there a difference?
Self-defence: is it immoral?
Tell me: what could conservatives have done after having failed to win by being honest, logical, rational and civil? Give up?
Is war immoral if it is in self-defence or to prevent acts of monumental evil?
Is it necessarily immoral to fight fire with fire?
If you think that fighting fire with fire when all other avenues are attempted and failed is immoral and hypocritical, so be it.
I still see no reason to never again slam the left. They haven’t learned their lesson. How do you propose we teach them a lesson without them being forced to learn the very pain they caused their opponents? How can they empathize if they don’t understand what they’re doing to others?
They, remember, have been brainwashed into believing that they’re correct and moral. We asked them “How would YOU feel if it was done to you?” but they didn’t listen.
What would you do that hasn’t already been done?
ET
It is clear by now that the Iran story is a plant. Hmmm, I wonder in whose interest it was to plant such a story?
The new imperialism only requires economic cooperation. We are talking economic imperialism.
If you don’t think that the CIA is not actively involved in Iran you are naive beyond hope. You don’t see the Americans handing money and logistics support to Iranian dissidents but you know its going on. If you have been paying attention you may have heard about bombings in Tehran or military probings into Iran. if you google a little you may discover that the Iranians are not so wild-eyed after all but rather just pushing back at American interference in Iranian internal affairs. They would label it terrorism or instigating terrorism perhaps. We wouldn’t call it terrorism unless they did it to us.
Yes, if you go to the Amnesty International website you find politicial prisoners in Iran, but then they have a lot of company, including the USA.
It’s clear now that steve d. is a plant.
Literally and figuratively.
Literally, he’s a cabbage, a vegetable. Maybe a head of lettuce.
Figuratively, he’s a jerkoff layton ass sniffing, crypto commie bootlicking, terrorist enabling, dictator loving, penis envying, metro-sexual jerk off.
It seems like the National Post article has been pulled from the website and the website index: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/index.html
Ted
Cerberus
BTW, CO, what is moral? What is immoral? How do we know? Who decides?
The left seems to have the power to make it so that the state sanctions, protects and canonizes that which has long been understood (or widely agreed) to be immoral.
Therefore, if the left is never immoral (as they reject moral values), then is it immoral to do what they do?
What if I believe that there’s nothing immoral about self-defensive political combat? Would you impose your own moral that it is immoral upon me?
If you’d do that, then you can also impose your moral values on anyone at all with whom you disagree. But unfortunately the left wouldn’t tolerate that because for a non-leftist to impose his/her morals on the left is, to them, against their values, if you can call them values.
Yet ironically they consider it acceptable to impose their values on non-leftists. And they do!
All I’m trying to say is that I see NO other way to teach them that they’re being stupid assholes and I’m just showing them how it feels to receive the same treatment they force on us.
Sigh… maybe you and I’ll have to agree to disagree on how to deal with leftist assholes. I’ll wait and see if whatever it is you do is any more successful than what I do.
Sigh… can we talk about other stuff? Can’t you just accept that I deal with leftist assholes in my own way?
Sorry about the mild profanity.
http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,19196947%255E1702,00.html
The story has been pulled:
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=11fbf4a8-282a-4d18-954f-546709b1240f&k=32073
Sentinel: Keep up the bold, courageous work. You are a beacon and an example of and for your kind.
Can you say major major major OOOOPS!
I don’t think the Post can with all that egg on their collective faces.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sunday Times
Jewish MP denies Iran badge plan
From correspondents in Tehran
20may06
IRAN’S only Jewish MP strongly denied reports in a Canadian newspaper overnight that Iran may force non-Muslims to wear coloured badges in public so they can be identified.
“This report is a complete fabrication and is totally false,” Maurice Motammed said in Tehran. “It is a lie, and the people who invented it wanted to make political gain” by doing so.
The National Post newspaper quoted human rights groups as saying that Iran’s parliament passed a law this week setting a public dress code and requiring non-Muslims to wear special insignia.
Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians would be forced to wear a yellow, red or blue strip of cloth, respectively, on the front of their clothes, it said.
Mr Motammed said he had been present in parliament when a bill to promote “an Iranian and Islamic style of dress for women” was voted. “In the law, there is no mention of religious minorities,” he added.
MPs representing Iran’s Jewish, Christian and Zoroastrian minorities sit on all parliamentary committees, particularly the cultural one, he said.
“This is an insult to the Iranian people and to religious minorities in Iran,” he said.
Australian Prime Minister John Howard said overnight, during an official visit to Ottawa, that “anything of that kind would be totally repugnant to civilised countries, if it’s the case, and something that would just further indicate to me the nature of this regime. It would be appalling.”
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he had only seen reports about the law but that he would not be surprised by them.
“Unfortunately, we have seen enough already from the Iranian regime to suggest that it is very capable of this kind of action,” he said.
“It think it boggles the mind that any regime on the face of the earth would want to do anything that could remind people of Nazi Germany,” he added.
“The fact that such a measure could even be contemplated, I think, is absolutely abhorrent.”
Harper’s parliamentary secretary, Jason Kenney, told the House of Commons that Canadian officials were trying to verify the claims.
Ted
Cerberus
Don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t put it passed the Iranians to do this AND to set up a bought-off minority to sell/spin the story, but there were doubts about this story from the beginning, the story itself was made up almost entirely of quotations from non-resident Iranians and the Post article has now been pulled.
Let’s all remember this story the next time some idiot makes a mistake and puts up an ugly photo of Cheney/Rice/Bush/Harper. Unless you are willing to concede that this is an example of conservative MSM bias.
Wow, that Iranian Prez sure is a whacko. I guess you conservatives had best get your butts down to the recruitment offices so you can go fight him, eh. Or were you all just planning to do the chickenhawk dance again while sending someone else to do the dirty work?
Heh, Ted: I’d make the same kind remark about you as well. 😉
Keep it up, too, pal!
Ted, all MSM is biased, even conservative MSM is biased, and that’s why they call it conservative MSM. I have 2 problems.
1. We don’t have enough conservative MSM.
2. The CBC is left wing propaganda and I can’t cancel my subscription. The government takes money out of my wallet and makes me pay for a bias that I detest. That’s wrong.
I’ll take that as an invitation to continue to do so Sentinel. Although I prefer to use a sarcastic and patronizing voice than an angry and vicious one.
Have a nice long weekend.
Ted
Cerberus
What a silly opinion, Robert McClelland.
You are saying that the only people who have the legitimate right to critique Iran, or any other problematic area in the world, are people who are physically able to physically fight that nation.
That means that, according to you, justice is derived only from physical Might. Not moral or intellectual Might. Just physical. You actually sound rather like the Islamofascists.
With your values and focus on Physical Might, you’ve also reduced the participants to those between the ages of: 18-28?; to those of strong physique. Anyone else, in your view, is not allowed to research, question, analyze, think about, or comment on the situation.
How silly.
Me angry and vicious?
Well, why do you sit on the side of those people, many, many of whom are angry and vicious? Hmm? Why? Surely you don’t condone the behavior of your people? I’d suggest you take them to task and tell them to stop being assholes. Then my guys won’t have to be, either.
Same to you about the long weekend.
“Tell me: what could conservatives have done after having failed to win by being honest, logical, rational and civil? Give up?”
Actually Can Sent,those EXACT qualities are what just got us ELECTED!!!Think about how the Liberals disgusting behavior the last 2 weeks,especially,of the election was rejected by Canadians!
I understand your fight fire with fire analogy,the fact is it’s far smarter to fight fire with a fire extinguisher.
You know what,I think we may be getting somewhere here(at least I’m learning)..
I am realizing that what really gets me riled are the ABSOLUTES that are thrown around.If some leftie attacks the right unfairly,by all means CS,kick his ass in any means you feel warranted!But,PLEASE refrain from including EVERY left-leaning soul that ever walked the face of the earth in your attack.It is mean-spirited,evil,dishonest and veerrry Liberal(couldn’t resist)!
Finally,you ask,basically,what can be done?
Let me suggest you have had the answer all along,have heard it many times from yourself,Kate,and others:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!!
It is,I believe,their sole mission to provoke reactions such as yours.Not always easy to avoid(I know first hand)because most know EXACTLY what buttons to push.
Thanks again for taking time to consider my points.
doug
when the intellect comes up short always resort to insult. It always exposes you intellectual impotence.
Do not feed the trolls, is code for you don’t have the intellect to engage them so please don’t make a fool of yourself.
Sorry to put your prejudices to the test. I knowyour philosophy is ignorance is bliss but I can’t help but believing somewhere deep down is some seed of intellectual curiosity.
steve d – don’t speculate. If you think that the Iran ‘dhimmi clothing code’ was a hoax, then, you can’t speculate on causality and be certain. That’s a logical fallacy. You are trying to assert:
The CIA/Evil Americans/Evil American Corporations etc…sent out a hoax.
You can’t, logically, make the connection between the Evil Americans and The Hoax. That’s called the fallacy of Affirming the Consequent.
So-, as well as taking a course in economics 101, in the history of the west and the ME, in political structures – how about a basic course in logic? By the way, you haven’t answered any of my questions, asking for proof, about oil costs versus oil revenues (1.15 transformed into $70.00); the problem with Companies, etc.
So what if the CIA is in Iran? So? It OUGHT to be in Iran With Iran’s rhetoric against the West, it would be completely irresponsible of the US NOT to have intelligence operations in Iran. Don’t be naive.
So, you don’t think that it is ‘wild-eyed’ (by which I presume you mean irrational) for the Iranian president to assert that the Holocaust didn’t happen? You think that is a rational, empirically grounded statement? Then, he called for a competition of cartoons denying the Holocaust. Do you think that is a proper and rational action for a President of a nation to do? Then, he asserts his intention that Israel should be ‘wiped off the map’. Do you think that is a constructive and rational statement?
Iran is not the mild and beneficial nation you are asserting that it is, steve d, and the USA is not the Evil Satan that you are asserting. You are brainwashed, but, that can be remedied. How about actively trying to LEARN something?
So it comes in as a false story, MSM is pretty pathetic … it seems the amount of checking they do is inversely proportional to the importance.
Doesn’t matter if the story was true or false – the west is still left with the same problem, to figure out when to react (it’s way to late to be proactive).
Steve D.
If only the world were as simple as you believe: US bad, everyone else good. Unfortunately the world is a much more complex place. The US is not evil nor are they perfect. They are, however, the best that we have (close your eyes and imagine if China was to replace the US). I think the Australian leader Howard said it best when he said be careful what you wish for as the world would be a far worse place if the US was to remove itself from foreign issues. Does that mean we blindly follow their decisions without question? No. But neither does it mean that we bash them at every opportunity we get.
ural: “Doesn’t matter if the story was true or false – the west is still left with the same problem, to figure out when to react (it’s way to late to be proactive).”
Yup.
And whether the story is true or false, it’s still news: Whose behind the story? Who broke the story? What were the movtives behind those who are behin it?
This isn’t insignificant tinkering. Making up THIS story has major ramifications–and if it was made up simply to push the buttons of “conservatives” and then was fed to them to get their reactions, it’s news that the CBC–Canada’s “national news broadcaster,” after all–and all news outlets should be carrying.
Investigative journalism anyone?
It’s interesting but steve d. is a typical example of the left, which despite their postmodern relativism, is actually quite rigid in their beliefs. They see the political world in black and white, and, as Paul points out, they see the US as Evil and everyone else as Good.
Such a binary frame is simple, neat and requires no thought. The left doesn’t like questions (notice that steve d. doesn’t answer any); it just likes certain opinions.
I like Action movies – Die Hard, the Mission Impossible, because they are simple, fast and easy to understand. You always know, with certainty, the Good Guys and the Bad Guys. No questions, no thought, everything is already clear, and you just sit back and enjoy the ride.
But, the left (steve d, Robert McClelland) assume that the real world operates like the fictional world. That’s their utopian naivete.
Is it a planted hoax or were the ‘dhimmi dress codes’ part of the Iranian parliamentary debate?
The following are quotes now up on the National Post:
“The Simon Wiesenthal Centre and Iranian expatriates living in Canada had confirmed that the order had been passed, although it still had to be approved by Iran’s “Supreme Guide” Ali Khamenehi before being put into effect.
Sam Kermanian, of the U.S.-based Iranian-American Jewish Federation, said in an interview from Los Angeles that he had contacted members of the Jewish community in Iran — including the lone Jewish member of the Iranian parliament — and they denied any such measure was in place.
Mr. Kermanian said the subject of “what to do with religious minorities” came up during debates leading up to the passing of the dress code law.
Ali Reza Nourizadeh, an Iranian commentator on political affairs in London, suggested that the requirements for badges or insignia for religious minorities was part of a “secondary motion” introduced in parliament, addressing the changes specific to the attire of people of various religious backgrounds.
Mr. Nourizadeh said that motion was very minor and was far from being passed into law.
That account could not be confirmed.
Mr. Javdanfar said that not all clauses of the law had been passed through the parliament and said the requirement that Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians wear special insignia might be part of an older version of the Islamic dress law, which was first written two years ago.
“In any case, there is no way that they could have forced Iranian Jews to wear this,” he added. “The Iranian people would never stand for it.”
In other words, we don’t know. ‘Dhimmitude’ is a reality in Islamism, and the ‘dhimmi’ are, in the Koran, required to be identified and accept a submissive role in society. I suspect we’ll find out more in the next few days. The new dress code of Iran isn’t one that even the Iranian people necessarily want.
ET, I just re-read your 4:27 pm post. It is one of the best rebuttals to US bashing that I have read.
Paul
This could just as easily be damage control. No one at this stage can say with authority one way or the other.
The thought and the idea of labels for the purpose of ethnic labeling is concrete however. Someone promoted it.
Someone made the error, [above], of lumping all Iranians as a single entity and condeming them all.
Iranian citizens are not likely to campaign for the practice of labeling fellow citizens who are living next door as non-Muslims.
The idea could easily have come from *MadMud* and his Mullusks, however. They HAVE made similarly outrageous declarations.
The important thing is that the evil and disgusting idea itself is out and should be promptly stomped to death. TG
ET
It is not that I don’t answer its that you don’t understand my answers.
It is the right who see everything as black and white. Like the issue today about Iran reportedly turning into Nazi Germany. It plays into the Rights view that Iran is bad, because America says so, they talk like a bully and they want the bomb so they must be bad. This rumour has probably been part of the smear Iran campaign that continues to build as America moves three Carriers within striking distance of Iran. The Right avoids looking at this Elephant in the room. The USA is bullying Iran. USA is saying to Iran,”Look we know you are a sovereign nation that may want the bomb but we don’t want you to have it. You might use it”. Iran looks back at the USA and thinks these guys with over 2000 atom bombs and the means to wipe out the entire human race is telling us they don’t want us to have even one. WE are dangerous?? Excuse me? Which nation alone in the world have used the atome bomb? Russia? No. China? No. North Korea? No. Pakistan?No. India? No. Israel? No. France? No. England? No. So who is the most dangerous objectively speaking? Which nation has dropped not one, but two atom bombs on civilian targets??? Sixty years after the atom bomb was invented only a single nation has used it
You need to step back and look at these things from another perspective than the dominant American cultural one.
Paul from Vancouver
I am not saying anything but be aware. Be aware that America always acts through economic interests. Be aware that their ulterior motives in Iraq, in Iran, in Canada or wherever, are always economic in nature. The political is driven by the economic prize. In Afganistan it is a gas and oil pipeline. In the Middle East it is to have a military presence to protect their strategic supply of oil. There is a competition for oil like never before. America’s supply of oil has peeked and is in decline. America’s economy runs on oil. Being by far the largest economy in the world it has the most voracious appetite for oil and virtually every other resource.
There needs to be an awareness that America’s huge economy has huge tentacles that drive it out into the world in constant search for cheap, secure, reliable sources of the raw materials that are needed in ever increasing quantities.
The political views I read are bereft of the intimate interconnection between politics and economics.
The simplistic view of the world ‘good guys vs bad guys’ is played up by sophisicated nations like the USA. They know that there are millions who are ready emotionally and intellectually to accept bad news about the bad nations or bad guys without question. If you read the comments on the article above you will see what I mean.
The US “Bungled Iraq”?
If you believe the CNN maybe, but I suspect it made most middle eastern dictators less, not more, comfortable in their power.
Consider- In a few weeks the military was completely destroyed, Saddam was in a spider hole, his sons killed, his generals arrested. No sea of oil well inferno, no mass exodus of refugees, no mass starvation, no breakup of the country – all of which was predicted.
And after a couple of dozen or so months: Constitution agreed upon, ratified, two democratic votes, the Fallujah uprising crushed, Al Sadr defanged, Iraq now has the fastest growing economy in the middle east, hundreds of thousands of refugees that were living in Kurdistan, mountain areas of Iran, and dispursed throughout the world have returned, power is above pre-war levels, hundreds of schools and other essential infrastructure rebuilt, people speak freely in markets, the free press is exploding (literally hundreds of media outlets) replacing a climate of fear of even wispering the wrong word, no more death squads and mass graves, no more Uday weekend rapes, no more Saddam’s special secret service, rather than “civil war” as predicted the three rival factions have actually formed a government, the leading cleric (Sistani) rather than advocating theocratic rule wants the mosque and state to be seperate.
Oh but there’s car bombs (deadly yes but militarily insignificant, and obviously not stopping the democratic process or the will of the leaders or the people to form a democratically elected government).
Yep what a massive failure. (To be fair to those who think so you’d never learn of the above from 30 second sound bites of “another car bomb” in Iraq – just as you’d never step foot in Chicago if all you knew about the city was clips of every major violent crime in the city, played every day in the news).
Cheers
The Embassy of Canada to Iran
Local Date and Time: May 20, 2006 4:40
Welcome to the office of the Trade Commissioner Service in Tehran.
Effective immediately, we will limit our encounters with Iranian officials to the Kazemi case, Iran’s human rights record and Iran’s nuclear non-proliferation performance. No visits or exchanges by Iranian officials to Canada will be permitted, nor will Canadian officials engage with Iran, except relating to these issues. Canada will not block the initiatives of private Canadian companies to trade with their Iranian counterparts. However, we will continue to apply strict export controls on sensitive goods and we will continue to advise business people about the political environment to consider when doing business with Iran. Furthermore, any existing programs of cooperation between Canadian government agencies and their Iranian counterparts will be halted. This state of relations will persist until Iran has taken steps to launch a credible and independent investigation and judicial process into the Kazemi case. We have not decided to recall our Ambassador, nor to shut down Embassy services. We believe there continues to be a need for professional-level dialogue regarding the serious existing difficulties in our relationship. …
http://www.infoexport.gc.ca/ie-en/Office.jsp?oid=283
Rubbish, steve d. You don’t answer. Don’t try to absolve yourself of responsibility for the fact that you don’t answer by trying to switch responsibility onto me ‘You don’t understand my answers”.
I certainly don’t understand your answers. Do you know why? Because you don’t provide any.
Now, again, how about some proof that the US-CIA set up this Iranian report as a ‘hoax’.
How about some proof that the US ‘sets up’ innocent nations so that it can go in and take their resources for free.
How about some proof that the US purchases the oil for $1.15 and sells it for $70.00.
How about some proof that Iran is ‘bad’ only because ‘America says so’, but that this conclusion is entirely ‘without just cause’. Prove that there is no just cause, no evidence, for such a conclusion and that it’s just and only because ‘America says so’.
Now wait – ‘they talk like a bully’. So, you think that the Iranian talk is meaningless and their desire for the nuclear bomb is innocuous. Could you provide some proof that their talk is empty and without meaning? You refuse to take the Iranian talk seriously. Why? Please provide some proof that their talk about killing all infidels, about denial of the Holocaust, about wiping Israel off the map – is Good Talk and indeed, is empty talk and mustn’t be taken seriously. Provide proof for your conclusions.
Oh, and you say that their talk is all ‘rumour’? The talk about the bomb? The talk about the Holocaust? Just rumour? Proof???
Again- PLEASE take an introductory logic course. You cannot make the causal links you are trying to make. You are asserting that Because the US used the bomb, in wartime, in one of the most vicious wars ever fought, against the Japanese, THEN, it is an Evil Nation. That’s illogical.
You could, after all, also say that BECAUSE the Germans gassed 6 million, THEN, they are an evil nation. Because Japan brutalized its prisoners,(do you know anything about that, steve???) then, they are an evil nation. Because Iraq used WMD against Iraq, then, it will do so in the future.
Don’t you realize that every nation MUST act through economic issues? It must ensure the stability and preservation of its population. That means, food, housing, all services and so on. That’s economics. The basic ground of any society, is its economy. You obviously haven’t studied any economics. Or political science. The infrastructure of all societies rests on their economy. That includes the Canadian economy. I’d bet you haven’t a clue about what the Canadian economy is built on.
Think about Zimbabwe and what has happened to it, because it destroyed its own economic base. Think.
People on this blog have informed you of your factual errors about oil, about economics, and you continue to spout the same tired nonsense. You obviously aren’t interested in learning anything – just in repeating your empty ‘coffee shop opinions’.
You say that the political views that you read are ‘bereft of the intimate interconnection between politics and economics’. Has it ever occurred to you, steve, that what you are reading is therefore ignorant and empty?
Again – your problem is your ignorance of logic, of history, of economics, of political systems, of demographics…That’s a lot not to know about!. You aren’t interested in learning. You refuse to answer questions – and don’t try telling me that you DO answer questions but that I don’t understand. You haven’t answered a single question.
ET:
“The whole focus of US foreign policy in the ME is democracy.”
That’s a neat assertion! Let’s talk about Palestine.
ET,
At 12:26 pm you wrote: “First – defining citizenship by religion is also an important definition of the state of Israel. As most of you know, any Jewish individual in any nation of the world is granted automatic citizenship upon arrival in Israel. Now – what about other religions?”
I respect your opinion on many subjects, but I have noticed (on this blog and the shotgun blog) that when it comes to Jews and Israel, you may be a little mis-informed.
Anyone can be a citizen of Israel – they just have to have lived there for 3 years (isn’t that how it is in Canada?)
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality
• Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization
Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:
• they must have resided in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day of submission of the application;
• they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intended to settle in Israel;
• they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.
• Acquisition of Nationality by Birth is granted to:
• Persons who were born in Israel to a mother or father who are Israeli citizens.
• Persons born outside Israel, if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship, acquired either by birth in Israel, according to the Law of Return, by residence, or by naturalization.
• Persons born after the death of one of their parents, if the late parent was an Israeli citizen by virtue of the conditions enumerated above at the time of death.
• Persons born in Israel, who have never had any nationality and subject to limitations specified in law, if they:
• apply for it in the period between their 18th and 25th birthday and
• have been residents of Israel for five consecutive years, immediately preceding the day of the filing of their application.
Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return
On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed “…the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew….” In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.
The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he or she may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.
Pretty terrible (racist?) – a country where Jews can automatically be citizens
Then you said,
“Israel has just passed a law that forbids Israeli Arabs (ie Muslims)from living with their spouses and children, if those spouses/children are Palestinian. That is, if you are a Palestinian in the occupied territories and met and married an Israeli, you cannot live in Israel with them. That’s the law.”
Is it so terrible if Jews want to protect themselves from being murdered? Also note that it is a temporary provision.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision)
Since the outbreak of the armed conflict between Israel and the Palestinians towards the end of the year 2000, which led, inter alia, to the commission of dozens of suicide bombings inside Israel, a growing involvement in assisting terrorist organizations had been noted on the part of Palestinians originally from the Judea and Samaria and Gaza Strip, who carry Israeli identity cards pursuant to procedures of family unification with Israeli citizens or residents; and who abuse their legal status in Israel, which allows them free movement between the Judea and Samaria and/or Gaza Strip and Israel. In order to prevent such potential danger posed by former residents of the Judea and Samaria and the Gaza Strip during the current armed conflict, the Government decided in May 2002 to temporarily stop granting them legal status in Israel, including through family unification. The decision was adopted following a horrendous terror attack in Haifa in March 2002 killing 15 people, committed by a suicide bomber who received Israeli ID following family unification. The decision does not apply to persons already granted legal status in Israel, and leaves them with the same legal status they had prior to the adoption of the decision.
The Israeli Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order), is a security oriented law, the result of the wave of atrocious and indiscriminate Palestinian terrorism which broke out in 2000 and claimed the lives of over 1,000 innocent Israelis as described above. The law is the direct result of 23 murderous terrorist attacks, made possible by the involvement of persons who were granted legal status in Israel based on their marriage to an Israeli citizen, and took advantage of their Israeli ID to pass checkpoints and carry into Israel either suicide bombers or explosives. Moreover, the law does not change the status of people who already received their status prior to the day the law came into effect, stipulating only that their status shall not be advanced, but remain static.
Ian Scott,
“Let’s talk about Palestine.”
Got something to say? – then say it.
ural, I did say what I wanted to say. I brought up Palestine, in context of ET’s assertion that “The whole focus of US foreign policy in the ME is democracy.”
Do you have something to say? I’m pretty sure there was a “democratic” election in Palestine, recently.
Perhaps, ural, the best place to start is by defining “democracy” in the first place. Hell, America isn’t even a democracy. It’s a republic. The Founding Fathers saw the dangers of democracy and therefore set up a republic because of the dangers they foresaw with such systems.