CBC;
A Kelowna man who transported an unconscious man to hospital Wednesday morning couldn’t believe his ears when he was told to call 911 for help. Ralph Vogel had driven the victim to Kelowna General Hospital only to be greeted by staff that seemed unwilling to help.
Vogel says he ran into the hospital and told staff that there was a man either dying or dead in his motor home. When staff told him to call 911 and wait for an ambulance, he told them that the man was outside. He was still told to call 911.
The hospital now admits that staff made a mistake by refusing to treat the man in the parking lot. The victim was a homeless man that Vogel and his wife allowed to sleep in their motor home. But then they couldn’t wake him up.
By the time the ambulance arrived, it was too late. The man had already been dead for several hours.
It wasn’t the first time.
I know a woman who immigrated from Russia to Canada with her husband a few years ago. A dentist by profession (but unaccredited here) the medical background was probably somewhat helpful when she was forced to deliver her baby at home, unassisted, after a hospital in the “Birthplace Of Medicare” turned her away because she could not pay cash in advance.
There was an incident here in Ottawa within the last couple weeks (sorry; I don’t have a link) that apparently a man was denied treatment at a clinic because his health card was expired. He and his wife went to the OHIP office (a few blocks away) and got a temporary card, but he collapsed and died on the sidewalk on the way back to the clinic.
Anyone have stats?
What kind of BS is this?? What happened to our wonderful,free for all Health Care(rhetorical Q).Why aren’t the CPC and Bloc raising supreme crap in the Commons about this??
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I totally agree with the stake thru the heart of the evil asshole that has brought this horrid “system” to us. The guy like his student P.E.T. was a communist. All the people that state they are not communists but socialists seem to forget that socialism is Marxs ideal of the communist state.
Free Medicare or FREEDOM (pick 1)
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
Need life-saving surgery? Best way to get timely surgery is to commit a crime.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1845&ncid=1845&e=3&u=/cpress/20050601/ca_pr_on_na/crime_shooting_ploy
TORONTO (CP) – A New Brunswick man who told police that a friendly dog scuttled his plan for a bloody shooting rampage was sentenced Wednesday to a three-year prison term after admitting it was all a ploy to get life-saving surgery while in jail.
[…]
Stanson, who was found with a veritable arsenal of firearms and ammunition in his car, originally told police he had been planning a mass murder in an east Toronto neighbourhood until a meeting with a friendly dog changed his mind.
He said he had driven to Toronto because he considered it a more suitable venue for his rampage; people in the Maritimes were too nice.
Court heard Stanson played with a dog for a while, then went looking for police.
“Listen, I am crazy,” he told an officer. “I need to go to a hospital. I’m going to start shooting people. I have a gun in my pocket.”
The 44-year-old made a similar tearful confession on a police videotape, but later told the court he invented the story in order to get detained and receive heart surgery.
He received the surgery last November, while in custody.
The former jail guard, who originally hails from Niagara Falls, Ont., suffers from diabetes and Marfan’s syndrome, which can cause a swelling of the heart. His lawyer said it was not clear why he wasn’t treated in New Brunswick.
Tommy Douglas. The father of medicare. The grandfather of waiting lists. The uncle of people dying on stretchers in hospital corridors. The uncle of…..oh never mind. You get the picture.
It’s a tale of silly people to be sure. Who could possibly have said call 911.
Just for clarification, whe the story says: “By the time the ambulance arrived, it was too late. The man had already been dead for several hours.” I presume he had died before he arrived at the hospital, not that it took the ambulance hours to get there and he died as a result.
The details a pretty sparse too. Did they not want to help because they were having a coffee? because they were dealing with six other critical patients and needed the ambulance staff to triage? I dunno, but the details could change the story from something outrageous, as it appears now, to something that was merely unfortunate.
Kevin, I think it’s just plain old incompetence:
http://www.polspy.ca/items/2004/06/10/556.php
Sean: Could be. I wish the original story had enough details to tell.
This is hard for me to do, but I feel I actually have to come to the defence of T.C. Douglas.
To FREE: he was no communist. What he wanted was Unversal Health Care, i.e. a Minimum level of care so that no-one would be left behind, not unlike GWB “NO child left behibd”.
What PET and subsequent gov’ts on Sask and BC for example have taken that to mean, is to a different level than Douglas.
As a former Church of Scotland minister, I can assure you, that he too would be disgusted and appauled at the manner to which the pendulum has swung to where we have NO governmental or personal accountability.
BTW, I live in AB where I, or my employer, still pays a Health Care premium of a WHOPPING $88/month (cheap at twice the price) for the privelege of waiting in line.
Before everyone comes crashing down on me, I am a proud supporter of Conservative causes. What bothers me is that we bring up the ghost of TCD whenever it suits our purposes(pro &con) without a true appreciation of his intents. If Bourassa or Chretien orPMPM want to go to Scripps or Mayo so be it, as long as John/Jane Smith in Speedy Ck, SK(sorry Kate my token SK reference) can get proper medical care, then all was right with the world.
We complain what MSM says about us, yet we buy what MSM says about our “so called” oppposition just because George whats-his-name nominates him and wins the “Greatest Canadian”.
PS: As a proud Scot, and in deference to a previous post, you may all want to check out a boook called How the Scots Invented the Modern World.
Do you know for a fact that your Russian friend a Canadian citizen when she presented at the hospital (or was she here on some kind of visa)? Non-citizens aren’t entitled to medicare benefits and must pay, just as Canadians must when visting abroad. I can’t imagine that you are suggesting that your tax dollars should be used to cover the health costs of citizens from other countries if they happen to need care in Canada….
She was a newly arrived immigrant. For all the US health care bashing we hear in Canada, she would have received care had she presented without insurance or cash at a US hospital.
For more health care nightmares, visit Habamus Rodentum. Some dynamite stuff there.
Come on now, maybe these unionized nurses were on a coffee break or something, solidarity forever, brother !
Kate, I just did a google search on free U.S. health care. You might get EMERGENCY health care without having to pull out your credit card…however, a pregnancy isn’t considered an emergency. You’ve had nine months to plan for it.
Facts:
1) One does not need to be a citizen to be eligible for OHIP, only a legal resident in Ontario. There is a waiting period (90 days I think) for new arrivals.
2) My son would have been denied emergency care (severely broken arm), in Ontario, unless we had had private incurance at the time (this was shortly after moving to Canada). In fact, his treatment was significantly delayed due to this refusal of treatment, during which time he was in severe but untreated pain. In the US there would have been no questions asked.
But, as is the official truth in Canada, our health care system is so much better than any other country’s, in every possible respect. Right.
Interesting.. From the righties who rail against medicare and want pay-for-services, now you are up in arms about the actual format you’re looking for. Quite ironic.
You’re missing the point, Todd.
What I am “railing about” is the blatant hypocrisy of those who have turned a commodity into a “right”, then transformed it into a sacred cow, the Cornerstone of Canadian Identity, no less.
What I am railing about is that it’s a farce.
We are misled by governments who use medicare as a political hot potato – who place their own electoral success ahead of the quality and availability of health care – and a media who immediately characterizes any discussion of amending the system to allow freedom of choice (imagine that! freedom of choice) between public and private – to be an “Evil American style system where people die in the streets and Oh MY God the Conservatives Want To Dismantle Health Care!” parroting of NDP/Liberal talking points.
Never mind that there are fewer holes in the safety net in the US than there are here. Nevermind that people here die on waiting lists for _diagnostic tests_. Nevermind that the same politicians who would deny you or me the right to have an MRI in our own province and pay for it out of our own pocket, travel to the Mayo Clinic for their own goddamn health care.
Once again, Kate is right. US hospitals are required by law to treat everyone regardless of their ability, or inability, to pay the bill. No one is turned away, especially in emergency care (such as babies popping out in taxi-cabs, etc.). American hospitals write off billions in unpaid fees every year, which is made up by charging the rest of us, who have jobs and insurance, more for what we receive. In a curious fashion, it is a “socialized system” already, albeit a much more efficient one. In addition, there are “medical credits” available through the welfare systems of each state which allows poor people free health care if they are enrolled in that system. Foreigh students at US colleges and universities also make great use of these very same medical benefits, as well as food stamps. So, any notion that the Great Satan chews up its helpless (and system players) is absolute bullroar.
I agree. Getting diagnostic tests here in Sask should be allowed to be paid for. However since we can already get them in AB, even if it’s inconvenient, anyone who can afford to pay should be able to do so. The trip itself isn’t as big a cost as it is for the procedure itself. I’ve checked into costs for diagnostic procedures and anyone who can afford it, can have whatever they want done. I’d say that the people that are dying while waiting fordiagnostic tests are dying right now because they can’t afford it, right?
Also I am pretty sure that hospitals in Canada are also not supposed to allow people to die without treating them when brought to emergency because they can’t afford to pay. This is a horrible case but I doubt the hospital was following policy. If it is, I’ll eat my hat.
On the issue of pregnancy, pre-natal care can be refused if the patient will not pay, but if the mother is in labor, that’s defined as a medical emergency. If she shows up at the ER, she’s as entitled to treatment as anyone else there.
It has become a government operation, staffed by bureaucrats, who have rules to follow and forms to fill. On the front lines, this status has been forced on them, but there they are, and sooner or later they start to think like bureaucrats. And, as in most government bureaucracies,the crowd up on the executive and administration floors (the ones who don’t get their hands dirty) get taken care of first.
Resigned, yup, I agree with you. One other thing to point out though — what you say also sounds like it could be talking about HMO’s in the U.S.
Tommy Douglas, the father of mediocre-care.
Like other items down here, the US health care system contains both good things and not so good things. All insurance plans (HMO’s, etc.) are not equal, with some being particularly good and others being less than crappy. People here have choices to make, either stay with a crappy plan or look elsewhere for a better plan or, perhaps, a better job. Evolutionary pressure is a good thing.
I don’t think the original post on this thread ( and the many similar ancdotes) is an illustration of system decay as much as it displays the almost religious value our bureucrats put on monolithic system procedures.
The poor man’s problem was not having a critical inopportune fatal ailment and creating an ineptitude embrassment for Health officials, it was the inexcusable and unCanadian sin of breaching the system’s hallowed procedures, document requirements, and having to audacity to disturb health care union workers with some silly triviality like human need during a coffee brake that lasts most of the day.
Hey if you don’t like it, try to sue!
In Canada, our pets have access better health care than most Canadians
Before everyone gets to excited about the U.S. healthcare system you might do well to examine how its cost is helping to kill industry in the U.S. Health care costs represent an enormous burden on employers (not to mention professionals). See the linked article by The Auto Prophet (scroll down to May 12). In summary, health care adds about $1,500 to the cost of a U.S. built car compared with about $150 in Canada and $300 in Japan. That’s one hell of a disincentive to build manufacturing capacity in the U.S.
http://theautoprophet.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_theautoprophet_archive.html
I am not holding up the US health care system as a model for the world. The reason we have to mention it is that it is the mediscare club used to scare the peasants back into their huts with up here.
Until privatization and user pay cease to be heresy in the debate over how to manage health care, then we are doomed to a system that eats up 40% of the provincial budget to provide a mediocre service.
And the reason people die is that they have faith in the system. They seldom realize how sick they are because surprise! surprise! they didn’t get the test that could have told them in time.
I’m curious Kate — which country / system would you hold up as a good example?
Kate:
I’m not defending the Canadian system as it is. I believe the Canadian health care system is the second most expensive in the world (as a percentage of GDP) – I believe the Canadian system costs about 10% of GDP or just under. By comparison, I have read the U.S. system costs between 14 and 15% of GDP. All other major industrialized countries spend less than Canada.
I have also read (but can’t link to a source) that Canada is one of the very few countries in the world that effectively bans private billing citing the the big “two tier” health coverage scare. That last comment isn’t quite accurate since a fair number of totally private clinics have opened up in Quebec – notice how the feds will dump on any other province that tries to experiment with health coverage.
There is a good model for the type of coverage I would like to see. The Shouldice Clinic in Richmond Hill north of Toronto is a private hospital that was grandfathered after health care became public. They do bill OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) for services. Think of the clinic as “Hernias ‘R Us” as that is their speciality. A good friend of mine has been a patient and raves about the quality of service and coverage. What really ticks me off about health care in Canada is how the governments (both feds and provinces) are frightened of any experimentation in coverage. Meanwhile the taxpayers have to feed the monster which is consuming an all increasing share of budgets.
Link to the Shouldice: http://www.shouldice.com/
FWIW – here is a comparison of life expectancy (at birth) from a group of developed countries (including Hong Kong). It’s a rough statistic but it puts things in some perspective.
Hong Kong:__81.39
Japan:_______81.15
Sweden:_____80.4
Australia:____80.39
Canada:_____80.1
Italy:_______79.68
France:_____79.6
Spain:______79.52
Norway:_____79.4
Israel:_______79.32
Netherlands:__78.81
Germany:____78.65
U.K.________78.38
Finland:____78.35
Denmark:____77.6
Ireland:____77.56
U.S.________77.1
Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
This happened to my now wife but girlfreind at the time. Her daughter got a deep cut that needed stitches on a waterslide at a hotel in Winnipeg while visiting me from the U.S. They wouldn’t treat her until they got paid first and would have refused without the payment.
On another trip in the U.S. my daughter who is Canadian, got sick and needed some treatment at a Lake City Florida hospital. She was treated post-haste and then they sent me the bill 1 month later.Never did they say they could not treat her without payment fist being made, in fact they are required under penalty of law to administer treatment under all circumstances.
Incidentally They charged $350 in Winnipeg for 4 stitches and $250U.S. for the second treatment which required X-Rays.
Not a day goes by that I don’t get on my Knees and thank GOD for my Green Card!!