“I don’t think there is any place in the world panicking as much on the question of debt as Quebec,” said economist Louis Gill. The reason for this, as Quebec prepares to unveil another deficit budget March 30, is simple: it is Canada’s most indebted province.
Its debt is at 94 per cent of its gross domestic product, just ahead of Japan, Italy and Greece, whose debts exceed their GDP, according to numbers calculated by the provincial finance ministry.
Via Mish, who has more.
h/t Rod
Pardon my french but, Vive le quebec libre, ASAP please
Should it surprise anyone that Quebec is so heavily in debt?
They are after all Canada’s most socialistic (state) province strangeled by unions.
Sort of like Greece is today.
And they almost succeeded in ensnarling New Brunswick into an electricity deal, the way they did Joey Smallwood the Newfie a few decades ago.
Jean Charest is a Red Tory at heart and Gilles Duceppe is a closet communist, so there you have it folks!
No bloody wonder Quebec is broke!
I didn’t know that Quebec was a country like Japan,Italy and Greece.
They could be.
Maybe they should be…
Mr g. – you obviously haven’t been to Quebec. They are a country onto themselves, and the sooner they realize this, the sooner Canada will be better off.
Amicable divorce.
While they are at it, the Maritimes can sink into the Atlantic and no one will notice it.
What, me worry? When we have Alberta to bail us out?
Quebec and Ontario survive on wealth redistribution taken from Alberta’s oil sands and the Hibernia OS oil projects. Ironic (moronic?) that these dissolute socialist governments plead with Ottawa to shut down the wealth engines which sustain them.
Seriously? Why would it be any other way when the ROC always picks up the tab via equalization or a crisis handout. The absolute kicker is when these holy roller QC politicans pontificate on their $5 a day daycare. The ROC cannot afford it but QCer’s can through equalization.
I would just so love to see Alberta not send it’s equalization bucks. Could u imagine the crisis that would provoke in Quebec, since as Flaherty pointed out they get 17% of their provincial budget. The meltdown would be a thing of beauty – what? a guy can’t dream?
Quebecers worried about THEIR debt? Heh. No way.
I’d compare Quebec to our public service unions. The public service has a monopoly on its services. It also has a seemingly inexhaustible source of income. The Taxpayers.
This is in contradiction to a private company and its union, where the income comes from the private sector who choose to buy its products or services. Or not to buy.
Not with a public service. Not with a monopoly on the services.
So, the public service in Canada can threaten to strike, if it doesn’t receive its wage increases that are DOUBLE to TRIPLE that of the private sector, if it doesn’t get its massive benefits which include adding up all unused sick days for 6 extra months of salary, those bloated pensions, ..and that minimal service required to receive those wages and benefits.
Quebec is exactly the same. It too lives as a monopoly. Its provision of services is minimal, relying on the constitutional law that requires the federal govt to be bilingual. So, Quebec provides all those bilingual federal staff, judges etc. It insists that key offices must be located in Hull or Montreal.
It too threatens to strike if it doesn’t receive ‘equalization’; Quebec is always threatening to leave.
It too has no worries about the cost of its heavy socialist services for which its own population cannot pay; the ROC, those anglophone taxpayers will always pay.
Don’t think for a second that Quebecers are worried. They expect ‘the ROC’ to pay. And pay. Why? Because, most Quebecers consider that the only reason they are in debt, is because the ROC ‘takes all their money’. This is the sandpile in which their heads are buried.
Oh, and don’t forget that Quebecers operate within a massive blackmarket economy. To escape from taxes, and the control of the unions, Quebecers operate a great deal of business by cash and undocumented.
In sum, Quebecers do indeed live very well. With no financial worries. They have a monopoly; they merely whisper ‘we’ll strike’ and the ROC capitulates. And the ROC taxpayers will always pay up the ransom.
Canada is a perfect example of how the Utopian society builders have been working the model for years now.
We have the luxury of watching how the model doesn’t work. Of course, we are paying for our own education, unlike those in Quebec, which we get to pay for as well.
Only problem is from a strategic defense angle. With an independent Quebec, any threat (Russian, Chinese, North Korean….not kidding) could walz right into North America and not fire a shot. The white flags would be waving like a snow storm. Would you like to have a satellite of Caracas right next door?
Texas Canuck asked “Maybe they should be…”. Is that a motion? I’m sure it will be seconded.
Quebec, our little piece of modern Europe.
Occam’s Disposable Blades
Please do not confuse the GTA with Ontario.
Ontario is part of ROC.
I guess they’ll be asking for an increase in Equalization Payments soon. More seats in parliament too! As soon as feds quit pandering to Quebec and GTA the better off everyone else will be.
Liberal Jeancula Chretien says: Merci. Have a nice day.
“the squandering of $100-million in federal sponsorship money.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/sponsorship-tipster-was-like-big-brother-to-prime-player/article1521790/
One day this will all come to a head….forget about a secure financial future in Canada and now with Obama in the USA, there is no place to move with your money so it is secure….maybe I should sell my house and buy gold and move to some small island as I wait for the free world to implode…sounds like a good idea…I am outta here baby.
Both VDH and Steyn recently had articles about Eloi and Morlocks. The Time Machine describes Quebecers to a T. The money from the dirty sub-human oilworkers in Alberta allows them to live a charmed life, free of worry. There is one difference – the air-headed Eloi are more of a threat than the Morlocks. The inability of socialists to understand economics, like Charest’s and McGuinty’s Copenhagen performance/green policies, will drag us all under.
Hey, all Quebec has to do is raise their daycare rates to $7.50 a day and they’ll be out of debt in no time.
Plus, another $8 billion injection from the rest of Canada.
I can’t wait for redistribution of Parliamentary seats to put a stop to this redistribution of our hard-earned money.
Either that, or give Quebec the independence to pay it so dearly desires … and the right to pay their own bills.
Charest brought in a gutsy budget, and as a Montrealer, I fully support it.
The sacred cows have finally been slaughtered: Gone are the days of free health care, frozen hydro rates, and unrealistic tuition.
It took guts, especially in Quebec, to introduce user fees for health care.
I’ll gladly grin and bear the bump in taxes, if it means we’re finally cleaning up our financial mess.
“Its debt is at 94 per cent of its gross domestic product, just ahead of Japan, Italy and Greece”
But for the sound management of the NDP in the 90’s, Saskatchewan would be in that club.
What happens when one day they wake up and all the money is gone?
Before we pat ourselves (Quebec as well as the rest of Canada) on the back for letting in loads of immigrants whose idea of Canada is turning it into another Sharia playground where literacy is a sign of witchcraft under the assumption that THEY will pay the taxes we need, let’s remember we dug this grave ourselves. More socialism and less kids and common sense.
Quebec is Canada’s Japan of sorts.
The unilugualists in Quebec have finally figured out who their real friends are.
It ain’t the Quebequois nationalists that are the solution, someone’s been duped.
Calis, ‘d’este, wake up!
Moi, je parle le francais, and I’m proud of being able to do so. My lingo is pretty lame, though.
I’m a downtown resident of Calgary and starting to see more university presence/students here. Hopefully this is not going to be the loony crowd.
At WUWT, someone mentioned “goofy” and I LOLed at that description.
For some reason, the word, “goofy” touched a brain node and made me laugh for minutes.
Being of Czech ancestry, I find Canada’s endless grovelling to Quebec (PM Harper included) to be beyond repulsive. In order to chase Quebec votes, every single bloody PM has sucked up to Quebec … and all Quebec need do is threaten to “leave” and the grovelling increases.
When the Iron Curtain came down, the Czechs entered into negotiations with the Slovak part of Czechoslovakia. The Slovaks were much like Quebec, by far the most socialist/nationalist region of the country which constantly belched out grievances much like Canada’s Quebec.
To make a long story short, the negotiations began and the Slovaks gave their demands, which ended with “or we separate.” The Czech delegation read over the demands, shook the Slovak’s hands, and said, “enjoy your new country”.
The Slovaks were left gobsmacked … claiming they’d been tricked into seceding.
Interestingly, after a rough start, the Czechs and Slovaks get along better today than ever before, and the Slovak fascist/socialist dream has been blunted by the reality of having to go it alone.
I say we start a Quebec Separation Party in Western Canada … the sooner the tapeworms leave, the better for us all.
And what “con” gov’t is doing about?
Welfare payments, especially extorted welfare
payments, are in the end very debilitating.
Why should my Canada include Quebec? They live and act like spoiled brats on the backs of the ROC — and treat the ROC like any spoiled brat treats their Sugar Daddy: with contempt. What’s good for us, isn’t good for you, because we’re special.
Enough is enough.
Not to forget the $2 million dollars that the ROC pays to the Bloc to keep the seperation issue alive. Enough of voter subsidization, let the “real” seperatists finance their own party, and while we’re at it the same goes for the dippers, no more union handouts. An added benefit would be that Lizzy May might go back to New England and help the “One” to ‘green’ America. Just think we’d all be winners then.
I lived in California for nearly 20 years, from the early 70’s to the early 90’s. The description of the crap in Quebec is eerily similar to how the Leftard Democrats and their parasitic interest groups have steadily, incrementally, depressingly ruined that once great state.
Once California had a GNP such that if it were an independent country, it’d have the 7th largest GNP in the world. Now, it’s teetering on the edge of becoming a third world basket case.
The dirty little secret to California’s economic disaster is the cost of providing all the various public welfare services to illegal aliens. That is at least $6-$8 BILLION per year. Any criticism of that brings instant howls or RACISM! from The Usual Suspects. THAT is their version of the ad Himonem attack, as they can’t dispute this fact and REALLY don’t want to even allow that into the public discourse.
Quebec will secede when Canada’s bankrupt, not before.
“Quebec will secede when Canada’s bankrupt, not before.
Posted by: Oldfart at April 3, 2010 12:55 PM”
or “after they’ve bankrupted Canada”?
This is why Alberta (western) separation is not a left/right argument. Once the left understands how many basketball courts can be built, how many needles can be handed out, and how many sick days can be taken for 21 Billion a year, they, in my experience they come aboard quite easily. The “ace up our sleeve” are First Nations people and how they too will benefit. Western Canada and First Nations, a fresh start. That’s my vision.
Start the conversation. Times are indeed interesting and opportunities might be not too far in the distance.
Rest of Canada can only bail out and support either Quebec or First Nations. We need a referendum as to which we want to do and do it fast before they drag us beyond the recovery point.
“Quebec’s families hold on to much more of their income than those in other provinces because of government transfers and cheap daycare, Godbout found.”
Agree with many of the posts here regarding separation of Quebec from the ROC. We shouls start the “Quebec Libre” movement in the West,as Cjunk says.
I’ve worked with many Quebec tradesmen, and they were all taught in school that Quebec supports the ROC,and were shocked when I said otherwise.
Go to it, Quebec.Bon Voyage.
Doug
[…..Only problem is from a strategic defense angle. With an independent Quebec, any threat (Russian, Chinese, North Korean….not kidding) could walz right into North America and not fire a shot. The white flags would be waving like a snow storm. Would you like to have a satellite of Caracas right next door?]
Based on a false assumption. As Parezo(sp)noted a countries borders are inviolet….QUEBEC IS NOT A COUNTRY…IF THEY LEAVE WHERE WILL THEY GO?
Heard rumblings that hydro in excess to Quebec’s needs will now be counted as income toward equalization formula.
Indiana.Thank You.A voice of reason at last.We all need to acknowledge the utter futility of the left right discourse.It only serves those who issue credit and currency to have us mired in a intentional manipulative distraction for the advancement of their agenda.Solutions are possible we need only to unite around a common cause and begin supporting each other for new ideas to form into the ultimate,a free and sovereign nation of individuals free of tyranny and oppression.
Count on this continuing until they (Quebec) run out of other people’s (our) money. The old Reform Party has been the only party with a platform and policy to deal with this effectively, so it had to go.
My family and I escaped from Quebec in 1984 and have never looked back. ET is correct in that they are convinced that they pay to English Canada more than they receive and that every single problem they have is “la faute des anglais”. So it is pretty clear that we are the suckers and they are the smart ones, since we allow the situation to continue.
C junk and others, I have been proposing for years now that everyone with like feelings should be supporting the Parti Quebecois. Had our group had any idea how close the last referendum was going to be we would have donated a hell of a lot more that we did. The sooner those distinct society bastards are gone the better.
Exactly, dmorris – almost all Quebecers are firmly convinced that Quebec supports the ROC, and the only reason they are in debt is because the send so much of ‘their’ money to the ROC.
This is a firm, rock-solid belief in Quebec. They believe that their federal taxes go, all of it, to the ROC. For the ROC.
They have no understanding that their universities are supported by the federal govt – and they have MORE universities in Quebec, despite their population being almost half that of Ontario. Their taxes, even if kept from the ROC, could not support this.
Their roads, bridges, water infrastructure – are all ROC taxes. Their taxes, even if kept from the ROC, could not support this.
They have no interest in a military or in foreign aid – therefore, they consider that ‘their’ taxes going to such agendas is an actual theft of Quebec money.
They have no interest in any shared infrastructure with the ROC,such as development of the north, therefore, they consider such agendas as a theft of Quebec money.
They have no interest in projects carried out elsewhere in Canada and consider any projects, irrationally, as somehow carried out with Quebec money.
Quebec is the only province that selects its own immigrant applications. Its immigrant population is the lowest in the country, and almost 95% are found in Montreal. However, the federal govt gives Quebec DOUBLE the amount of ‘immigrant settlements’ funds per person that it gives to any other province.
Funds for special events? Quebec received 85% of federal funds for 2008 Canada Day celebrations. Quebec’s dairy farms are privileged, while farmers in the ROC are required to limit their cream and milk production.
Academic research funding from the federal funds? All the reviewers for projects submitted all over the country must be bilingual, which narrows the list – and – all the committees know that a heavy proportion of awards must go to Quebec.
And of course we know that the Bloc could not survive on donations, which are almost non-existent; it relies on the 1.95 per vote funding by the federal govt. Even though it, as a non-federal party, is unavailable to vote in or out to almost 80% of the Canadian electorate.
Quebec offers 26% more in services than Ontario, thought its GDP is 14% less. But Quebec simply does not care. The ROC pays. Always.
It has a ‘monopoly service’ in Canada. It can go on strike or threaten to leave, and the ROC will instantly hand over the money.
And if you grumble about this, Quebec will claim that you are ‘biased’, are ‘racist’, and against the ‘francophones’.
ET’s comparison of Quebec to public service unions is spot on and reminds me of the attitude of many of BC’s “formerly employed” pulp mill union members, the difference being the sectoral discipline of the market versus the public sector’s fantasy world.
Quebec is not unique in creating a deeply indebted ghetto but simply a spoiled over-achiever and generally reflects the mushy attitude of the majority of Canadians. Public debt is future wealth destruction, either through parasitic taxes or inflation. At current levels, unless Western nations clean up their act, with significant pain, the outcome will be grim.
ET, Re: QC. I believe the threat of “striking” is getting “old.” Like the rest of NA, their populations are aging demographically.
Support for separation is a little bit like the joke – if you’re not a socialist at 20 you haven’t got a heart; if you’re still one at 50, you haven’t got a brain.
Notwithstanding the entrenchment of statism/bilingualism and public sector unions, I have an optimistic belief that that time of threat and concession has come to an end. The westward shift of economic power is the catalyst. Those 12 new seats in the west are a big help too and have the separatists enraged.
Western separation is now a real threat, should an eastern metropolitain cabal ever seize power without an election, as they already tried with a newly elected government just 10-15 seats short of a working majority.
Why does Quebec fail economically? Probably for the same reason California does, but also because they try to act like a country (a European one that is). They’re not up to the task, and everybody knows it.
Yet it goes on; hopefully not for long.
Anyway, if Quebec wants to go, then go, if not then they should be welcomed and get themselves some leadership that has not isolated itself from Canadian political culture (except the money part of course)
Though, Team Canada wouldn’t be as good without Quebec.
I am not for universal daycare, but don’t believe the myth of daycare for all in Quebec. The spaces went to the yuppies and the swift of foot and car (not the poor single moms who are out of the loop and can’t drive all over to get a daycare). There are long waiting lists for the spaces. Raising the rates to $7.50 would be hardly scratch the surface.
Plus the ratio child (baby!)/ educator and child/square ft. are among the worst in Canada.
I am sure as soon as the demonstrations start (actually they already started yesterday with vandalism) Charest will run for cover and not increase the ridiculously low tuition fees.Ditto with the proposed $25 user fee for seeing a doctor.
Syf:
It already is. What is not included is the lost revenue from giving power to local users for far less than what HQ can get for that power on the open market. According to some sources – including Danny Williams – that currently gives 5 to 6 billion to Que more in equalization that it would get otherwise.
The reason nothing is done about it is it is political suicide. If the government gets tough then the Liberal Party wins. Conservatives aren’t in a strong enough position to do that. The Liberals have been fostering this ad nauseum with the exception of Mulroney. Quebec plays the seats by not supporting either. If we aren’t happy we’ll vote for the other guy.
ET writes “Quebec’s dairy farms are privileged, while farmers in the ROC are required to limit their cream and milk production”.Industrial milk production across Canada is under the control of the Milk Marketing Board with each province’s production limited by strict quotas. 47% of the quotas are assigned to Quebec. You can cease wondering why you see Quebec made butter in your supermarket shelves. Think of the needless transportation costs borne by consumers to the direct benefit of Quebec dairy farmers.
shamrock – yes, I agree, the new distribution of House seats, which more accurately reflects the ratio of the population, will help to dethrone Quebec from its 1970-80’s stance as the seat on the throne of Canada. But only help.
The key problem with the current distribution of seats is that it privileges Quebec, which means that all governments must pander to Quebec in order to even win enough for a govt.
Of course, the idiotic, utterly insane act of allowing ONE province to have their own political party, whose members are out of electoral reach of the majority of citizens – threw a wrench into our political structure, dooming us to endless minority govts.
After all, the Bloc became the ‘natural default party of Quebec’ and rapidly moved out of supporting separation, and into supporting the benefits and eventual pensions of its elected members.
Quebec is going to object to this dethroning. How? I’m not sure. It can’t argue for more seats.
If they argue for separation, which is their normal default act of extortion, I suspect the country will yawn and wave goodbye.
They might try with the red herring diversion of ‘how dare you add this extra expense to the people by increasing the size of parliament!’ This is an emotional mob argument but the West won’t buy into it.
So I suspect that Quebec’s only card in the deck is bilingualism. After all, Trudeau’s Charter was primarily to insert bilingualism; the other issues such as freedom of speech, equality before the law, were long existent in Canada – see Diefenbaker’s Bill of Rights, which included the right to enjoyment of property, missing in Trudeau’s charter.
I suspect that Quebec will demand a broader bilingualism in the country as a way of keeping a grip on power.
Of course that does nothing to give it more parliamentary power.
Can we out West vote for the Parti Quebecois in the next election?
Go Quebec Go!
Has a new meaning…
ET.Obviously you have spent a great deal of time and effort studying the intricacies of the Quebec situation,well done.This situation is not supposed to ever be resolved,it is part of a greater more sinister plot.The fact that good caring decent people would like to find a solution bring it to the attention of government and wait for them to do something effective or meaningful is just not going to help.Please take the time to look at a site www:gigisup.net.A constitutional lawyer Gary Fielder explains the issuance of currency and credit,the derivatives and credit default debacle and a possible solution for the whole mess.