134 Replies to ““Palestinians are, if we were to believe their fancifully posed pictures””

  1. BTW, Ulianov, I was referring to the Big Media in general. I never indicated I meant 100% of it- certainly, sometimes, some of them do demonstrate a semblance of integrity, to their credit.
    But by and large, the generally-observed end result of Big Media saturation of the public consciousness is to make a lot of folks, particularly those guillible and naive enough to lean Leftwards, believe that Israel is somehow some gargantuan, mean, old, a-stompin’-on-y’all Goliath and the “Palestinians” some innocent, downtrodden little Davids, when the truth is that Israel is David and surrounded by the Goliath of the massive, overwhelmingly-hostile-towards-Jews-in-the-neighborhood Islamic World and a misinformed International Community who thinks that the Good Guy is bad and that the Bad Guys are good…

  2. Ulianov has proved himself on here to be a Radical Leftist who hates the West and hates Jews. He has indeed proved this over & over & over again.
    ET is a completely different matter. I’ve long respected her views. So let me pose a question to you, ET: “If you were the PM of Israel, precisely what would you do to resolve this matter AND protect your citizens?”
    I’d sincerely like to know.

  3. I could use some assistance in interpeting the picture of the 4 yr old wrapped in a yellow flag. Are the palistiane’s the new super norse of the world. I figure that I am of average size although I must admit a little vertically challanged for my perfict weight. I was looking at this picture with three adult (at least in age) men carrying her so I went and measured myself across the sholders and came out at aprox 21 inches. Then using a very complicated mathamatical formula determined that this 4 year old girl with the 20something hair do stood about 5’9″ tall. So what I need to know is if she’d been allowed to live to puberty Just how tall would she have been????

  4. Here’s the latest from the home page of Reuters.com:
    Israel’s offensive is a violent sequel to a drive led by the U.S. to punish Hamas for resisting a discredited “peace process,” analysts say.
    And then this link below: “Civilians take brunt of Gaza campaign”
    I actually made the effort to read the 2nd story. That headline is not even substantiated by the “facts” of the story, and who knows if they’re even true.
    There really is a HATE-ON for Israel and Jews in general amongst MSM outlets like Reuters, isn’t there?!

  5. Let’s recap, shall we?
    The Brits carve 75% off of Mandate Palestine and create the Palestinian state of Trans-Jordan. Jews are forbidden from living there, even though parts of that territory are considered part of historical Israel. The remaining 25% of Mandate Palestine is intended to be the new Jewish homeland.
    The Arabs in this 25% of Mandate Palestine, who haven’t lost a stitch of land to this point, carry out a series of pogroms against the Jews. Just to be consistent, their leadership spends time with Hitler in Germany.
    The U.N., caving to Muslim aggression, decides to create a second Palestinian state from that 25% originally set aside for the Jews.
    The Jews accept and create the state of Israel. The Palestinians do not accept; they along with neighbouring Arab states attack Israel but are defeated. In the conflict close to 1 million Jews leave their ancestral homes in Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc. and flee to the new state of Israel. Some Palestinians leave Israel on the encouragement of the attacking armies, thinking that they’ll be able to return after Israel is quickly dispatched.
    At war’s end Egypt has control of the Gaza Strip and Trans-Jordan has Judea-Samaria (West Bank).
    In conclusion, Israel starts off with 25% of the disputed territory. Then they lose even more when the U.N. decides to set up a second Palestinian state. Slightly under a million Jews have walked away from their homes, never to return, never to hope to return, and never to be compensated.
    And yet amazingly there are no Jewish suicide bombers. There has been no launching of rockets into Jordan to recover lost land. There is no show on Israeli television with a mouse like Farfar that teaches kids to hate arabs. There is no world-wide Jewish movement to attack Muslim wherever they find them.
    Why is it that Jews can lose life, land and property and yet still get on with it, whereas not only do Palestinians react like barbarians to similar events, it’s actually expected of them and apologies are made?
    If it’s all about land, why haven’t the Jews, who’ve lost far more land, equivalently acted like animals?
    It’s about the Islamofacism, stupid.

  6. Posted by: ulianov at January 2, 2009 8:56 PM>
    “Did I mention Noam Chomsky, Finkelstein or Soros?”
    Yes you just did!
    Bite and be hooked……….”thou dost protest to loudly”.

  7. colin – yes, I agree with you that the I-P situation, which originated only with regard to land rights, has now been highjacked by the Islamic fascist ideology. I’ve said the same many times. However, the two agendas are NOT the same and there still remains enough of a difference that one must be cautious in merging them.
    Islamic fascism, in my view, above all, is not interested in the emergence of a Palestinian state, while the Palestinians most certainly are focused on that. That’s a crucial aspect of Islamic fascism; it doesn’t want a Palestinian state, and particularly not a democratic one and all its actions will work to prevent one.
    I disagree with, for instance, Mississauga Matt who maintains that Islam, as a religion and sociopolitical ideology has been ‘fascist’ from its origin. I strongly disagree with that. Islam may be against reason, against equality, against democracy, it is collectivist and subordinates the individual –all of which are also fascist themes; it is also tribal and unable to adapt; it may be isolationist but that doesn’t make it fascist.
    Fascism by itself is a particular political mode focused around an essentialist biological sense of nation or people as a nation; Islam doesn’t have any biological notion of ‘nation’ or people. None. It has instead a notion of ideological and/or military subjugation of others, not exclusion of others as ‘not pure’.
    Islamic fascism emerged only in the 19th c – and I’ve explained its origins many times and won’t repeat it again but it has to do with a tribal inability to adapt to industrialism and therefore a rejection of the ‘impurity’ of the West. Nothing to do with any notion of religion.
    As for Gaza becoming a nation, I don’t think it has the land base capacity to do so on its own; it is, for example, half the size of the city of Toronto. It could only function as an economic appendage to another nation that has the resources, eg hydro, water, industrial devt, to supply it. With the Israeli blockade since 2006, even basic economic development hasn’t occurred.
    Robert W – I think it’s too late now, to enable a Palestinian state. I don’t think that there is any ‘right’ for a people to have a nation. That includes that there is no ‘right’ for Jewish people to have a nation of their own; no ‘right’ for Palestinians, no ‘right’ for Canadians and so on. Nations are not fundamental rights; they are political constructs.
    Therefore, one has to consider the constructed reality. Israel, as a nation, now exists. Period. The Palestinian people, as a population or ‘ethnos’ now exist. Period. What does one do with these two realities? (Not ‘rights’ but realities).
    You ask for a counterfactual scenario. It would, in my view, include a reality where NO settlers would have been allowed to settle the West Bank; and this would have been handed over to the Palestinians, along with assistance to enable the Palestinians to develop a democracy, as the US assisted Iraqis to develop a democracy. And then, assistance to establish a closely linked economy with Israel. I think that the two ‘nations’ would have to be economically closely linked.
    But it’s too late for that. Israel, in my view, has no intention of releasing the West Bank and this shows in their continued settlement. I think what Israel wants is for Egypt to take over Gaza, politically and economically, while it takes over the West Bank, politically and economically. The Palestinians? They can’t be Israeli citizens because of that Jewish majority clause – therefore, they must go to other countries – but will those other countries, such as Jordan (which now refuses them ) accept them?
    So, what we have are these complex and contrary agendas all operating at the same time.
    There is the Palestinian desire for a state and anger at seeing their lands taken over by settlers. That desire and anger is, in my view, justified. There is little they can do since they have, militarily and economically, no power and the international world, including the Arab States, does nothing.
    Then, there is Islamic fascism, which has taken over this anger to divert away the focus on the problems in their own Arab States. Islamic fascism does NOT want to see a democratic Palestinian state. And they also want to see the fighting between I-P continue!
    Then, there is Israel’s agenda, which is also not to have a Palestinian state, but for different reasons than that of the Islamic fascists. Israel simply wants the land.
    Egypt’s agenda, which is NOT to have to look after Gaza and its people.
    The other Arab States, which also do NOT want to see a democratic Arab state, Palestine, in their midst – because they want to retain their tribal authority rather than having an example of arab democracy in their midst. And the continued fighting between I-P suits them as well, because it diverts attention from their tribal dictatorships.
    Therefore, these other Arab States will be quite willing to turn a blind eye to the actions of the Islamic fascists, who will continue to incite attacks on Israel. And Israel will react to them as it does now. Both Israel and Palestine have a duty to protect their people. Palestine is helpless before the settlers. Israel is not helpless before Islamic fascists (not Palestinians).
    So, it’s a terrible mess. Maybe 20 years ago, a Palestinian state would have been possible. But now, with the established settlements, and with the use of Islamic fascism to divert attention from the very real political problems in the other ME states (Iran, SA, Syria, Egypt) – it’s no longer possible.
    I think the real problem is, however, Islamic fascism. And again, it is an error to merge the two. There could be no I-P situation and Islamic fascism would still exist; the problem is in the political structure, tribalism, of the Arab States. That has to end, and democracy has to be enabled.

  8. In your penultimate paragraph above, ET, you state: “Maybe […] a Palestinian state would have been possible. But now, […] it’s no longer possible”. Fine, say I agree with you. Nevertheless, putting away, then, all wishful thinking contrawise, what is your plan for proceeding without a Palestinian state, now that you acknowledge such an alternative is no longer possible.

  9. DaninVan, as for your sister and her family, I certainly don’t wish them any harm but at least they can leave the country if they are feeling threatened, an option that the Palestinians don’t have.
    Posted by: ulianov at January 2, 2009 8:56 PM
    –That is because the Islamic World will deport or kill the “Palestinian” Muslims if they try to enter their countries. In fact, Egyptian soldiers are now under orders to fire upon “Palestinians” who attempt to cross from Gaza into the Sinai. Yep- Muslims poised to slaughter “Palesitian” Muslims. Where’s the widespread outrage at Egypt, now?
    You see, Ulianov, if the Islamic World hadn’t been so selfish and hellbent on the destruction of Israel from the beginning, we wouldn’t have this conflict as we have it today in the Middle East.
    It’s all the Islamic World’s fault, what’s happening there. Both Israel and, ironically, the obviously-disposable “Palestinians” are, in their own ways, the victims of a hatefully intolerant, supremacistic, imperialistic Islamic World. Deal with it.
    International outrage is misdirected. The correct direction for the world’s outrage is towards the Islamic World and towards those who interfere to facilitate and foment the conflict, like Russia, who we know has always advised and armed the Islamic World to help it attempt to destroy Israel.

  10. ET, I agree that Islamic fascism is the root of the problem.
    I also would like, as would Vitruvius, to know your ideas as to how to proceed to deal with the situation, ie. to stop Hamas from attacking Israel, given that it’s agreed that a “two-state” solution isn’t a viable option.

  11. I do not think, Ulianov, that it is possible for Palestinian and for Israeli states to share that particular limited piece of real estate, at this time, under the historic circumstances currently relevent. I think that, in the name of statehood border integrity, one party or the other is going to have to decamp. Perhaps I may wish same were not so, regardless, reality doesn’t care about my wishes. Ergo, I try to analyze reality as it stands, not as how I wish it were to be.

  12. Son of Hamas Leader Gives Glimpse Into Terror Organization
    former member of the militant Islamic organization said there will never be lasting peace between the two groups.
    “There is no chance. Is there any chance for fire to co-exist with the water?” said Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the group’s founding members.
    Yousef added: “It’s not about Israel, it’s not about Hamas: it’s about both ideologies.”
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475226,00.html

  13. ET, thanks for your insight on these matter. Much appreciated. Like Vitruvius and Canadian Sentinel, I’d also like to know your views about moving forward if you were the Israeli PM.
    You know, as an extension of what you said, I think back to Mark Steyn’s comments that eventually parts of Western Europe will be in a never ending civil war once the Muslims there gain a majority. I wonder if Israel-Palestine will [sadly] be a blueprint for that future Europe?

  14. Posted by: ET at January 2, 2009 9:19 PM>
    ET – I do enjoy your posts (although a little lengthy), so please don’t take this completely the wrong way. You are definitely well informed and educated.
    But… do you ever consider others opinions opposite your own a worthy consideration?
    You are absolutely correct in my opinion about the Islamo-facists, but you indeed seem to fall short with the extended family of Islamo-fascism that interweaves their culture like a handmade blanket. Yes I’m referring to the “moderate” Muslims that can bring a tear to my eye concerning their innocent victimization as merely pawns in the greater scheme of things.
    Although I won’t talk about it in any length, I have also silently ground my teeth reading your earlier posts stating Israel as invaders to the Palestinian territories in history. My no committal on the subject has been two fold. First because other posters have clearly illustrated that the concept of Palestine was a western fabrication of the mid century and secondly I care not to be infused in the insane, unmovable argument of Israeli / Palestinian sovereignty.
    Other than that I would say, regardless of modern claims to the land in question, early antiquity meaning Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Christian bible (Old Testament), place the Palestinians in the land of Canaan. These people at best were of course Canaanites and they lost the damned war against the Hebrew. The Hebrew people were then expelled by the Romans and the Romans bestowed the lands to the predecessors of the Palestinians for their safeguarding of Rome’s assets. Israelis scattered to the winds of the world, suffered terrible Xenophobia wherever they settled, and then reclaimed their ancestral lands as the only place on earth they could settle unencumbered as a unique culture. We need to address the UN and the British Empire as to how that came about.
    The fact is that – it is done. So do we in the west support a likeminded culture such as Israel that operates in the parameters of our civilization? Or do we support the Palestinians and the greater Arabic world, including Islamic ideology and their unmovable claims to this slice of historic land and sliver of people?
    If this doesn’t seem very black and white to an educated westerner, it really doesn’t matter, because it’s that black and white to them!

  15. The question as to which other countries would be willing to take them strikes to the moral core of the matter, Ulianov, given that there is no shortage of countries in the region that could easily absorb such like-minded citizens, yet said countries claim that it is not their job to be their brother’s keeper, it is Israel’s. It is in part because of this moral infidelity that we can more reasonably conclude that the objective of the enemy in this matter is not the support of the Palestinians: it is the destruction of the Israel.

  16. “colin – yes, I agree with you that the I-P situation, which originated only with regard to land rights, has now been highjacked by the Islamic fascist ideology. I’ve said the same many times. However, the two agendas are NOT the same and there still remains enough of a difference that one must be cautious in merging them.”
    But, until the Gazans reject their Hamas-Iranian puppet-masters, then the two agendas are one in the same. Being able to recognize the conflation of the two is interesting from an academic standpoint. But, on the ground, it makes no difference given current circumstances. Iran is calling the shots, through Hamas, in Gaza. I argue, therefore, that the I-P conflict is the key front of the Islamofascists. Once conflated, there is no longer any material distinction in my view.
    “Islamic fascism, in my view, above all, is not interested in the emergence of a Palestinian state, while the Palestinians most certainly are focused on that.”
    I disagree: see above. Were the Palestinians, by and large, interested in forming a nation state, we’d see anti-Hamas rallies in Gaza. At the least, there would be a recognizable pro-state-anti-war Palestinian movement. I see no evidence of such an entity.
    “As for Gaza becoming a nation, I don’t think it has the land base capacity to do so on its own; it is, for example, half the size of the city of Toronto. It could only function as an economic appendage to another nation that has the resources, eg hydro, water, industrial devt, to supply it. With the Israeli blockade since 2006, even basic economic development hasn’t occurred.”
    There are many small nations and nation states that successfully stand on their own, even though they may be dependent on regional neighbors for certain functions. Gaza could operate on a similar model. As to the Israeli blockade, we seem to be in a chicken-versus-egg argument. I’d argue that there would be no blockade if the Gazan government were genuinely interested in co-existing with Israel — the blockade is a direct result of Hamas hostility. Israel has a history of being allowing its borders be opened for workers, but I don’t begrudge the use of an economic blockade while home made Quassam rockets rain down on her citizens.
    “Robert W – I think it’s too late now, to enable a Palestinian state.”
    If that’s so, it’s the Palestinians’ fault. They have Gaza, and could have used the last three years to build roads, construct water treatment plants, negotiate trade treaties with other nations, and create a nascent nation state. Instead, the Gazan government chose overt hostility with Israel over all other policy.
    “I think the real problem is, however, Islamic fascism. And again, it is an error to merge the two.”
    Again, it is not an error, in my opinion — and I suspect we’ll continue to agree to disagree on this point. Were the I-P conflict not around, Islamofascists would find another proxy through which to wage their war. But, in our world, the I-P conflict has been hijacked to serve the Islamofascists purposes. I argue the conflation of the two issues makes them one in the same. Separating them is interesting academically, but makes no material difference ‘on the ground.’
    But, I’m curious…do I interpret you correctly: that the I-P conflict can never be resolved so long as Islamofascism remains? I have a suspicion this might be the case and, if so, it depresses me to no end.
    “There could be no I-P situation and Islamic fascism would still exist; the problem is in the political structure, tribalism, of the Arab States. That has to end, and democracy has to be enabled.”
    On this last point, we have no disagreement. I truly hope the emergence of a free Iraq marks the beginnings of such a transformation. I’m hopeful her Iranian neighbors soon throw off the shackles of their oppressive rulers when they see Iraq rise from the ashes of the previous Baath regime.

  17. ET
    Can you explain to me that if isreal only wants the land why was it that isreal offered 90% of its land to paleistine when arafat was in power and he rejected the offer by saying palestine could never live along side isreal and would not be happy until isreal was pushed into the sea?

  18. Posted by: ulianov at January 2, 2009 11:04 PM>
    But what is Israel’s objective? Keep the Palestinians isolated until…what?>
    That has got to be one of the most idiotic statements I have ever read on SDA? Hello is there an award for this kind of sick comedic crap, or is this guy really that far out there?
    Hey dickhead! Although you cannot rationalize this point, I’ll put it out for the youngsters anyway……………….. What if the Palestinians, actually adhered to a ceasefire for one year! Yes, just one year. Not rockets over the fence, not little kids forced by their elders to strap a bomb to their mid sections and kill themselves and 20 other diners or commuters. What about trying that for 1 unforgivable by Allah year and see if the Israeli devil worshippers respond in kind??
    The fact is …….we ALL KNOW that is all it would take for civil discussions and interpersonal relationships between the two cultures and societies.

  19. Colin, I don’t believe there is any dispute that the Iranian mullahs are pulling the strings of Hamas. They certainly are with financing. How closely they are controlling the strategy there is uncertain.
    Question: After Obama’s victory, many asserted that “dark forces” would test him. Do you think that Iran will be one of these? If so, how?

  20. No, Ulianov, it’s not the elimination of the Palestinian people that is at issue, it’s the mitigation of the existential threat to Israel. As Israel’s neighbours wish to be an existential threat to Israel, thus Israel has to either do something about it, or decamp. Ergo, to the degree that the Palestinian people are being played, and let’s be charitable, to be stooges of the Jew-Haters, it remains Israel’s problem to deal with the latter reality. The Israelis don’t want to eliminate the Palestinians, they want the forces who are manipulating the proxy Palestinians to stop existentially threatening the existence of Israel. After that, the Israelis would like to sell their neighbours desalinization and greenhouse technology, to better the lives of everyone in the middle-east. You have a problem with that?

  21. Ulianov,
    You are arguing about unicorns and trolls.
    1. There is no Palestinian People. They are Arabs who by various mishap and meanderings settled in that area in the centuries after the destruction of Ancient Israel. The Turks brought some of them in, Lawrence pushed some there, etc…
    2. There never was a country called Palestine- EVER.
    3. If you were really concerned about those people who have learned to call themselves Palestinians (mainly since 1967) and not just trying to justify your dislike for Israel, you would pay attention to what Vitruvius wrote about the way the elites of the Arab world use them as proxies and doppelgangers while the scapegoat Israel.

  22. ulianov said: “But what is Israel’s objective? Keep the Palestinians isolated until…what? They die off? They go away? They agree to become an occupied, walled off pseudo-state?”
    Maybe keep them isolated until they stop launching rockets at towns?
    My dear retard, do you think the IDF would have any trouble -flattening- Gaza from the air, and then rolling up the survivors and pushing them into the Egyptian desert? Do you think they don’t have daisy cutters? Artillery? A whole army of p1ssed off guys happy to do it?
    As ET says, the whole fricking Gaza Strip is 300sqkm, that’s like 10k wide and 30 long. If they decided to go at them, they could start tomorrow morning and be done by dinner on Sunday.
    Instead, as somebody mentioned above, the IDF PHONES EVERYBODY IN THE AREA to tell them when the building full of terrorist missile launchers is going to get hit. And then when they finally hit the thing, they drop it like a controlled demolition.
    Clearly, these are the actions of bloodthirsty demons bent on genocide.
    The inside of your brain must be one f-ed up mess, my friend.

  23. The Palestinians are definitely first-class drama queens, but I have one question.
    Why right do the Jewish people have to reclaim what they call the Holy Land when the Zionist movement has nothing to do with religion?
    Not meaning to offend anybody, just curious.

  24. Does anyone here besides me get tired of the endless historical/philosophical debate regarding this conflict? The fact of the matter remains that the real source of the conflict is the striving for power. Its naked, its ugly, its murderous and its name is Evil for its name is power.
    Box in a bunch of people feed them hatred with their mother’s milk and let them be a proxy that diverts attention from the evils in your own land and nation.
    Take a captive people and beat them mercilessly just to show their bigger neighbours that you are a formidable foe not worth the risk of fighting.
    Take a crowd of gawkers and manipulate their allegiances to your cause. Divert the intelligentsia and the chattering classes into lobbing verbal H bombs into the opposing rancorous camp.
    All that by so doing you shall retain your tyrannical power.
    And somewhere near the hobs of hell a demonic laughter is heard rising above the screams of agony from the tortured souls kept captive by their own ignorance and stupidity.
    Yes there is a better way. Is anybody interested?

  26. Some one far greater than I once wrote, “Do not be conformed to the ways of this world any longer, rather be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
    One soul at a time each in in our own little darkness, each in our own little obscurity, let us each reach to that place where peace, true peace is found. Lay aside pride, seek humility, lay aside revenge, seek forgiveness, lay aside conflict, seek peace. Let no man think himself greater than his Master. Let no one presuppose that he unbidden shall do the work of God.
    There shall be no peace amongst the nations when there is conflict amongst the people. There shall be no peace among the people while there is conflict in the soul.
    Each need cure his own soul and we shall find peace amongst the nations.
    After all what shall it profit a man to gain the WHOLE WORLD yet lose his own soul.

  28. You see Joe, that’s half the worlds the problem right there!
    You have assumed for everyone else in the world that they live in a miserable world with a tortured soul.
    I’m telling you – it just aint so Joe!
    Believe it or not, I assume you would just say not……a vast majority of people on this planet are quite happy with their lives and their existence. With or without prophetic dictatorships. Not everyone is soul searching or needs to be. I would suggest that that is a conquerable goal for you to achieve, without dwelling in dark mischievous corners of obscure poetry.
    No offense, simply trying to help on the cheap.

  29. ‘Set You Free’, I agree with Joe in that trying to decide what’s “right” based on old history is a fool’s errand. Perhaps it’s a popular pastime for college history majors over a couple of beers but ultimately you’re going to have a number of different opinions and nothing will ever get resolved.
    What I object to is a new thread (to my ears anyway) of some, asking whether Israel should have been allowed to gain nationhood 61 years ago. If that question is going to be opened up then let’s also consider dissolving Canada and the United States and …… You get the picture.
    So rather than dwelling on “what should have been”, one can only focus on the here & now; that is if one wants to try to resolve this holy mess. (Pun intentional)

  31. Posted by: Robert W. at January 3, 2009 2:19 AM>
    “What I object to is a new thread (to my ears anyway) of some, asking whether Israel should have been allowed to gain nationhood 61 years ago”.
    I don’t know, it just sounds like everyone seems to have the opinion that that choice is theirs to make and not the people of Israel.
    I think, and they appear to concur that they will determine their own destiny regardless of what the worlds hacks seem to think is in their best interest.

  32. Knight 99:
    A soul incapable of introspection is indeed a soul to be pitied. A soul thusly void shall be the horror of everyone around him.

  33. I would concur with Vitruvius. Canada, the U.S and most European (western culture) nations have traditionally embraced the downtrodden from other nations, despite the fact that the immigrants – either as refugees or simply as people seeking peace, security and economic opportunity – have little or nothing in common with their adopted nation.
    Yet the 48 muslim majority nations offer nothing to their ‘palestinan brothers’ other than arms and disdain. Granted, many of these nations are improvrished, not in small part because of their socio/polictical/religious nature, but many are fabulously wealthy in both land and treasury.
    Ulianov asks “who would be FORCED to take them?”
    Which begs the question: Canada was not forced to accept thousands of Lebanese, many of whom incidentally, abused the honour and priviledge of being welcomed to Canada by returning to Lebanon at the cease of hostilities and then demanding they be rescued when hostilities recommenced. But I digress.
    Why should Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or any muslim majority nations not welcome those with whom they share both ethnicity and religion? Why, when they see them suffering so, would they not open their hearts and their borders?
    Could it be that the palestinians are convenient and willing pawns in the greater goal of a seamless and united muslim middle-east? After all, Israel is the only non-muslim and coincidentally, functional nation in the region which in serves to shine a light on the dangerous nature and shortcomings of the majority culture of the overall middle-east.

  34. Kight99
    If so many are so happy with their lives and want to go on just existing,Why do we have so many problems in the world?
    By the way you speak you would think that everyone lives in your house.
    Joe was qouteing biblical and not some freaky poet that lives in a dark closet.
    All humans need structure in their lives and without it we would live in anarcy.
    Did your father not have rules for you to live by in your home so that you would some day grow up to be a good person in society or did he let you do what ever you wanted and do you look at your father as a dictator or some one that was evil to you.
    Maybe as childeren of God the father,we would listen to him maybe just maybe we wouldnt have all of these problems in the world.
    But I will asume that you will also try to blame that on religion.

  35. Posted by: Joe at January 3, 2009 2:41 AM>
    “A soul incapable of introspection is indeed a soul to be pitied”
    So you say……….or someone else said for you, anyway good luck, nice life and all that, adios.

  36. Posted by: trucman at January 3, 2009 2:54 AM>
    Wow that is a head full or mouthful – Truman! I’ll give it a little time but not much afterwards.
    “If so many are so happy with their lives and want to go on just existing,Why do we have so many problems in the world?”
    **Why do you assume I speak of people who simply want to exist??
    “By the way you speak you would think that everyone lives in your house.”
    ** That’s your presumsion – I would say it’s misled.
    “Joe was qouteing biblical and not some freaky poet that lives in a dark closet.”
    ** Ok whatever it still sounded like some obscure freaky poet to me. So why does that make my opinion about it wrong? Sue me along with 95% of the planet that doesn’t quote the Christian bible by heart (that is including most Christians).
    “All humans need structure in their lives and without it we would live in anarcy.”
    ** Structure to avoid Anarchy may an accurate assessment, but first why are you alluding to a religious structure as the only possibility of structure? Or is what you mean simply Christianity? If so what kind, Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican?
    “Did your father not have rules for you to live by in your home so that you would some day grow up to be a good person in society or did he let you do what ever you wanted and do you look at your father as a dictator or some one that was evil to you.”
    ** You assume allot about a person’s upbringing, morals and ideals from a simple comment on a blog thread.
    “Maybe as childeren of God the father,we would listen to him maybe just maybe we wouldnt have all of these problems in the world.”
    ** Maybe! And maybe people who have listened to god to intently through others in the history of our civilization have created the most unthinkable problems.
    “But I will asume that you will also try to blame that on religion.”
    ** Again I think you assume too much.

  37. “DaninVan, as for your sister and her family, I certainly don’t wish them any harm”
    Well yes, Ulianov, you do, if you rationalize Hamas’ day in and day out rocket and mortar attacks on Israelis as somehow being fully justified. Because they’ve been something less than triumphant in their efforts doesn’t make them victims, just incompetent.
    Had Hamas been more successful in months past, this Israeli reaction would have occurred months ago; NO legitimate Gov’t can stand idly by and watch its territory and citizens being assaulted.
    Please don’t insult anyone’s intelligence and claim that’s what Hamas is doing; Hamas specifically and Palestinian organizations generally have violated every agreement they’ve ever entered into with Israel, yet Israel always comes back to the table to give it another chance.
    As for your questioning the validity of the 400 Hamas fighters killed, there’s at least 12 milling around this rocket transporter when an Israeli precision missile strikes…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG0CzM_Frvc&feature=channel_page

  38. Knight 99
    You speak as though christianty is a bad thing.
    Last i recall all of north america was built on it. Or would you be a much happier person living under Muslim rule.
    Someday you may have to choose so all I can say is choose wisely.
    Oh! and as far as your thoughts go ,heres a penny!

  39. Posted by: trucman at January 3, 2009 4:06 AM>
    Trucman I will do my best to not patronize you.
    “You speak as though christianty is a bad thing.”
    ** I made no such comment. Your apparent bias has led you to that conclusion.
    “Last i recall all of north america was built on it”
    **Your “recollection” is valid Obi wan if you are referring to the Judeo-Christian values of the founders of North American civilization. Otherwise you seem to forget that all was not perfect in the Christian world of our Canadian founders who killed each other with the same zeal as they did their aboriginal counterparts. Louise Riel would most likely vouch for that fact if alive today.
    “Or would you be a much happier person living under Muslim rule.”
    ** You are obviously a newbie to SDA if you question my feelings towards Islam.
    “Someday you may have to choose so all I can say is choose wisely”
    ** Are you referring to a Mercedes or BMW? Save me the sanctimonious crap, you are nothing spiritual in my world to give me some obscure prophetic wisdom of the ages. When you actually grow up you may know what I mean.
    Oh! and as far as your thoughts go ,heres a penny!
    ** Save it you may need it someday. I already have nearly half a billion of them.

  40. And who are those 400 dead “Palestinians”, ulianov at January 2, 2009 2:40 PM ?
    How many were Hamas?
    I think the girl in the video has it correct.

  41. Wow, what a discussion this is. You could watch the MSM for 25 years and never learn 1/3 of what has been imparted here.
    If ever there was an argument to maintain a free and open internet, this thread is the ideal example.

  42. lawnguy, I certainly agree that this is an outstanding discussion.
    Two thumbs up for Colin from Mission B.C.; Knight 99; and Robert W.
    A somewhat rare thumbs down for ET.
    ulianov is an example of what happens when people bring their oh so cute kid to an adult party and then allow the kid to distract the adults.

  43. The world tends to divide into those who think that Israel stole the land of ancient Palestinians and those who don’t. Let me repeat again – the Jews did not steal anyone’s land, they are not evil colonialists/occupiers – this is irrational and today’s equivalent of “the Jews killed G-d” (the deicide charge).
    Many people have nailed the facts here (Miss. Matt, DamianVan, MND, Phantom who always makes me laugh,irwin,others). The information is out there – and don’t just dismiss articles by Jews – I have noticed that people will read articles by Jews who are antiIsrael (look Chomsky said it, and he’s a Jew so you know), but proIsrael Jews (like liberal Dershowitz as MND pointed out) are just “biased”. Articles by Efraim Karsh, PalestineFacts, MythsandFacts, are good.
    The people who call themselves Palestinians are not descendents of Canaanites. Canaanites disappeared in the 8th century BC, and they would have spoken a language similar to Hebrew, not Arabic. The socalled Palestinians are Arabs, and intead of being displaced by Zionist Jews, Arabs flocked to the Zionist enterprise to get jobs and enjoy the new economic disparity. THEIR POPULATION HAS INCREASED, NOT DECREASED. They were not diplaced.
    Also it is important, I think, to always remember that the two state solution was proposed by the UN in 1947 (the 1947 partition plan which as MissMatt discribed, would divide up the remaining 20% of British Mandate Palestine). THE JEWS ACCEPTED THIS TWO STATE SOLUTION, THE ARABS DID NOT AND LAUNCHED A WAR OF ANNIALATION. They could have had their state 60 YEARS AGO.
    Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against: (from Myths, Hypotheses and Facts Concerning the Origin of Peoples
    “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
    “We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians – they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
    “When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.
    Someone mentioned that Zionists aren’t religious. The word Zion is used countless times in the Old Testament. Jews have been saying “next year in Jerusalem” at their Passover seders for some 1800 years. Religious Jews are also Zionists, but yes the modern state was mostly fought for and founded by secular Jews –
    G-d works in mysterious ways, what can I say. I know, I know there are black hat dudes who say only G-d can return us to Zion, but they are a fringe – most black hat, kippah wearing, observant Jews are Zionists (which now-a-days is sometimes translated as Jews with guns).
    For those who read their Old Testament – the creation of the modern state of Israel, the return of the Jews to their homeland – is fulfillment of G-d’s promises. Many Christians have told me they see Israel as fulfillment of biblical prophecy and evidence that G-d keeps his promises.

  44. In answer to Vitruvius et al, about ‘the future’, I think that the only answer to the I-P situation, since I am also assuming that Israel has no intention of giving up total ‘ownership’ of the West Bank – is democracy in the other Arab states in the ME.
    First – a few comments – I disagree, totally, with any ‘first step on the ground’ means I can claim the land for the next two thousand years. We have no knowledge of who was on that land base before the Israelites or where they themselves ‘first appeared’ on this planet. I disagree with ‘first footsteps’ claims to land. Land ownership is a political not essential right. Therefore, even our N. American natives can’t reclaim N. America despite their similar claims to that of the Israelites.
    I also disagree that what was offered to Arafat was a nation with sovereign control; all he was offered was municipal control over the towns. The land, resources, water, borders, airspace, would all remain in Israel’s hands.
    And no, Israel hasn’t accepted a Palestinian state.
    And no, Gaza wasn’t given the opportunity to establish itself as a viable economic locale, since the people there voted for Hamas rather than Fatah (which is quite corrupt)..because Hamas provided more social services. The resultant economic blockade meant that Gaza had no money, no open borders, to develop itself and it went into an economic downturn.
    Now, that these facts are clear, what do I think the future holds – since, as I said, it is obvious that Israel has no intention of releasing the West Bank – and that means, no Palestinian state.
    I think that the key to future peace is democracy in the other Arab states – Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria. Democracy means a middle class and a middle class is focused on entrepreneurship, individualism, progress etc. That ideology is the opposite of fascism – and if this emerges, then fascism dissipates to an irrelevant ratio. There will always be fundamentalists, in the Jewish as well as Islamic religions but their numbers will be in the minority.
    What will happen to the Palestinians? Oh, and it is totally irrelevant to claim that there never were any ‘Palestinians’. Actually, they were called such under the British Mandate, but so what? There never were any Canadians or US people either. Having a ‘name’ doesn’t entitle or disentitle you to a nation.
    It is also an error to merge all Arabs into one; they are not the same; location histories, tribal filiations, linguistic variations – all mean that they see themselves as regional rather than homogeneous.
    Since Israel won’t accept them as citizens, then, who will? The only thing – with democracy – it is possible that other Arab states will.
    What is still missing, and I’ve asked repeatedly but not one person replies – is my puzzlement over why so many people are astonished at the anger of the Palestinians over the loss of their homes and farms. What do you expect from someone who has been living on a farm for generations, only to see his land taken and given to settlers? Someone who sees his farm destroyed, the trees cut down by settlers. You don’t think that this person should feel angry? Why not? The insistence that the Palestinians shouldn’t feel anger – that stuns me.

  45. ET,
    I’m actually tired of going in this circle- no one is astonished that there was anger about “loosing” homes, the astonishment comes from the fact that they are angry at Israel about it. The Arabs who stayed in their homes in 1948-49 kept them and for the last sixty years have had a standard of living (and more political freedom) far better than any in the Arab world. The “refugees” should have been angry at their leaders and the power-elite of the Arab world who started a war, urged them to become refugees and have kept them in the camps for over half a century.
    Q. When does a refugee camp become a permanent settlement? A. Never- when the refugees are being used as a weapon by the fascistic Islamic power-elite to redirect the rage of their own people at being the most backward, uneducated and unsuccessful people on earth. Knock the oil prices back down to $13 a barrel and the whole “civilization” would be what it was in 1950- going nowhere, covered in flies.

  46. ET said: “You don’t think that this person should feel angry? Why not? The insistence that the Palestinians shouldn’t feel anger – that stuns me.”
    ET, I’m not at all surprised that Palestinians are angry. They’ve gotten a crappy deal, and that’s the truth.
    What I have a problem with is what they do in their anger.
    Lots of groups over the years have had crappy deals. Like the JEWS, just ferinstance. Palestinians, out of all the people in all the world who have just grievances, are the only “nation” of people in the world at this time who routinely employ atrocity as a method of warfare.
    These are not people who have been isolated in the wilds of BongoBongo Land and suddenly thrust blinking into the glare of modern life. They’ve been there the whole time Israel grew from mud huts to modern cities, they all went to school, they know how to drive cars and all that stuff. They’ve had -countless- opportunities to make peace, to expel the insane killers from their midst and get on with life.
    But they don’t. They never do. Their leaders break every promise they make, sometimes the same day. They are set upon a course of self destruction, of ever increasing depravity, savagery and sheer evil. Certainly not all of them, but enough that the PLO and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and all these nut groups never seem to run out of recruits.
    The Japanese got NUKED at roughly the same time Israel was created and all these farms you speak of were stolen. The Japanese seem to have gotten over it, what’s keeping the Palestinians stuck? Should we care, or should we just stomp on the f-ers like they deserve?
    Personally, I’m all for stomping on guys who shoot missiles at towns in the hope of killing a school full of kids, or send their own kids to explode in front of cafes. Their own kids, ET!
    If some bunch of cretins pulled a stunt like that here in Ontariostan I’d be in the front line with a rifle, bad knee and all. So would all of us who comment here except maybe ulianov. Jews are supposed to be different?

  47. http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20090103%2fisrael_gaza_090103
    occupation by force is crime
    immigration by permision is allowed
    if you look at who is guilty
    need review documents based
    forget jewish muslim isues for a second
    forget who you like to live who to die
    who to leave and who to stay
    —
    if we say for sake of arugment Sadam hussain did tried to occupied Kewit as war in Iraq brough all international forced to get him out
    as sadam said to kewit taht you pay me and borrow me money to kill iranian they are shia and now
    now i have debt and kewit force to get their money back then sadam used this as excus to go and kill kewit civilan and take their oil pump saying as of today kewit is part of Iraq too
    what teh wrold react to it to stop him to death
    as called him criminal and his act was crime
    —-
    lighter offense was other example
    french and english hisotry to canada as not as bad as sadam since tehy plan to live in canada and aboriginal not allowed them they had war after vicotry of ware they did abused indian aborigina to not practice their lanughate for a year not give them job late Harper review the history said for human right we owe to aborigina for this abuse to tell them ‘sorry’
    —-
    worst example was hilter said all world belong to him since he is aryean and he is smarter than all of us and ther rest of world are dump then again they called him as war criminal and so on
    —
    example of paltinanin and isreali is also
    matter of occupited of land by foce by kill the peopel since in the begining they jewish was immigrant to that area in palstin they bought land like immigrant and it was welvome and it was safe heaven for htem later jewish isreali treid to OCCUPIED their land by forc
    it is like you seat in yoru home nad some with bomb and gun and force of army take your home and get you out of street and let you die in hunger
    therefore isreali occuation is crime and must be stop
    —
    other example of taleban who decied to helped
    Saudi guy for find land to kill shai kill other woman not go to school or put acid toe hteir face under name of isalm in afganestan also
    was occupied from interanl peopel by foce of saudi guy who every body know him
    —-
    conclusion OCCUPATIOn of land by force is crime and palstinaa has right to get that by force back to begin with
    and AMerica tried to fool some stpid jewish over rglion to fight for American to use isreal land as isreal statet to let them control middle east formoney and pay htem money to live by abuse pasltian similar is paktian got moeny from USA too
    —
    you have be fair to let peopel fair and find solution to area to people
    and put
    priorty to them not look for money power issue
    this is life under treat from both side over years of corruption from past politician
    every body know above nothing ‘new’ i said that
    time to fix the past problems today not tommorrow
    christian muslim jewish has right to immigrantfreely for any reason person can change place to live and not get lable nad obey law in that country for sure anhy place or live safe in any place of world
    and not got bother or killed by act of crime
    occupation is crime but immigration is allowed

  48. Posted by: ex-liberal at January 3, 2009 9:28 AM>
    “The people who call themselves Palestinians are not descendents of Canaanites.”
    I assuming you were making reference to my earlier comment about Canaan? Which is the point I was trying to make – “Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Christian bible (Old Testament), place the Palestinians in the land of Canaan. These people at best were of course Canaanites”. The point I was making is that it was not Palestine nor were the people of antiquity in that area Palestinians. The argument “at best” is referring to indigenous peoples who by generation in an area absorb into the following culture. Something akin to some of the indigenous modern British evolving from the early Celts. In short, I see that the intent of my statement could have been easily misread, it was indeed intended to point out that historical and cultural claims by Palestinian peoples to the land “as before the Jews” as not accurate.

  50. ulianov writes, “A sentiment which is expressed by many commentators here is that ‘Palestinians shouldn’t feel anger because they are something less than human.'”
    I’ve read this thread and I do not believe this non-sequitur/make believe statement. (These days, there seems to be a rash of lefties jumping to outlandish conclusions, far removed from the words actually written.) ulianov, prove your point, chapter and verse, from this thread, with quotes.
    (Something about which I absolutely agree with ET is that, credibility-wise, mere assertion doesn’t cut it. ulianov’s made an undocumented assertion. H/She needs to provide the evidence.)

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