43 Replies to “Y2Kyoto: The Messengers Of Doom”

  1. Which major has added this item to their official election platform?
    “A regulatory framework will impose mandatory emissions reduction targets on Canadian industry and reduce Canada’s greenhouse gas emissions by an absolute 20 per cent by 2020.”

  2. Excuse me for spamming with duplicated comments (see Reader Tips), I meant to say, “Which major left-wing party has added this item to their official election platform?”

  3. I’m surprised that the Greens and Tories have virtually the same numbers. Of course, I think they’re approaching it from different avenues – the Tories think the more people learn, the more they’ll realize AGW is a crock, while the Greens think the more people learn, the more they’ll swallow it. Still kind of funny, though, given that May continually spouts that this is a done deal, and we’re all gonna die.

  4. The Liberals and Quebec secessionists would seem most predisposed to suspending their faculties of critcal analysis and mindlessly chugging the Kyoto Koolaid.
    Cons, Dippers, and Greens seem to more skeptical.

  5. I thought there were classes in school where students were being told to make informed decisions without all the information?

  6. greenie support . . . miles wide, inches deep.
    I always get a kick out of May et al telling us how wonderful the Euros going green, but they never mention the Brits pay 500% more for electricity the I do (and going up thnx to the the enviro-jihadis) or the German economy has seem massive industrial shifts out of Germany to Eastern Europe, where they don’t have CO2 rules, leaving the Germans with 12% Unemployment rate.
    Lizzie May’s nirvana has a lot of thorns.

  7. Thanks Kate; for publishing that survey. I WILL be e-mailing that around to my rather naive family members and friends (“I read it in the paper…”)
    🙂

  8. It is really distrubing the amount of control that the MSM has on the information (usually very limited and very one-sided) people get – however thanks to bloggers that is changing.

  9. This, for the first time in a long time, actually gives me some hope that the “average Canadian” isn’t a complete shell-shocked dupe.
    Now if only we can get shows like Daily Panic, er, I mean Planet to start bruiting more high-quality information from all sides of the debate, rather than the “gosh, Global Warming/Climate Change is terrible, isn’t it?” style of climate reporting they do now.
    Garth

  11. Actually, ye olde ham, that’s part of, not the election platform, but the Conservative ‘Turning the Corner Action Plan’, which set up new regulations in April of 2007 and March, 2008, to require a 20% reduction in emissions of greenhouse gases from big industry by 2020.
    The plan was first developed in April of 2007:
    “Impose mandatory targets on industry to achieve a goal of an absolute reduction of 150 megatonnes in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020.
    Impose targets on industry so that air pollution from industry is cut in half by 2015.
    Regulate the fuel efficiency of cars and light duty trucks, beginning with the 2011 model year.”
    Then, in March 2008, came this aspect:
    “Establishing a market price for carbon;
    Setting up a carbon emissions trading market, including a carbon offset system, to provide incentives for Canadians to reduce their greenhouse gas emission.
    In addition, today’s detailed regulations include new measures like:
    Setting a target that will effectively require oil sands starting operations in 2012 to implement carbon capture and storage; and,
    Effectively banning the construction of new dirty coal plants starting in 2012.”
    Just google ‘Turning the Corner Action Plan’. Or triple w dot ecoaction dot gc dot ca
    But I suspect you know all of the above anyway.

  12. So, the Cons are setting up a flow through tax on CO2 emissions in the cap and trade, set arbitrary values on reductions based upon least injury to the economy, and finance sequestration with taxpayer money (remember those ‘green’ tax credits?).
    Great.
    All for an unproven notion of ‘global warming’, morphing into ‘climate change’, under the umbrage of CO2 emissions being bad, with the base assumption that it is all anthropogenically induced.
    Wow. Such stellar policy out of the Cons. sarc/ Naturally, they deserve unqualified support and no criticism at all for Baird.
    After all, he is just saving the planet.

  13. HARDBOILED
    I agree, but I’m still voting Conservative. They are all lying to us so it is like offsetting penalties in football, it amounts to nothing but it’s on the record. I personally will reassess my political allegiance after this election; but, unlike you I’m thinking separation.
    “It is really distrubing the amount of control that the MSM has on the information (usually very limited and very one-sided) people get – however thanks to bloggers that is changing.”
    This is true, but it is more disturbing to me that most Canadians refer to the MSM as their reference base.

  14. What is galling is the statement that the public have a “right” to have the MSM tell them the truth. Dig it up for yourselves, you lazy brainwashed dipsticks. If you can’t recognize that the MSM is an information filter, arguing about ‘rights’ is going to go completely over their heads.

  15. no, hardboiled, you incorrectly link the Conservative agenda of reducing emissions and pollution to an acceptance of AGW. Such a link has no basis in fact.
    However, reducing emissions and pollution as a strategy of maintaining a clean environment (air, water) makes sense. Perhaps you don’t accept that.

  16. Hardboiled, there’s several factors to consider. First, the majority opinion right now, even if it’s wrong, is that we need to cut greenhouse gas emissions. So the conservatives have put a plan in place which will see some reductions. But they have also decided to cut real pollution by 50%. That’s huge. And it addresses a real environmental concern. So 5 years from now, when the CO2 fraud is finally proven wrong once and for all, the conservatives can say “hey, we targeted real pollution when everyone else was tilting at windmills”. Second, much of what they have put into place is being deferred, so if the fraud can be revealed in time, we can stop all the CO2 nonsense before it’s too late.

  17. As I recall, Stephen Harper called Kyoto a socialist money exchange…or something to that effect… He was right then, and he is doing what he can to appease the green tide while doing the least damage to the economy.

  18. This poll surprizes me. Not the results, but the fact that someone took the trouble to carry out such a survey.
    With MSM having spouted for years that “the science is in” and characterizing skeptics as wingnuts, deniers and zealots, the Media concluded it was their job to play cheerleader instead of doing their job. So much so that I doubt this poll will have any positive effect.
    We’ll only learn after the ecoomy has deep-sixed.

  19. Ah, thanks for the clarification all.
    The Cons are lumping in CO2 emissions with ‘pollutants’ (like aromatic aerosoles, complex molecules, and volatile organic compounds), so they can build bureaucracies, to save us from an unproven hypothesis.
    It is clear to me now.

  20. Hmm. My comments appear harsh, especially in light of the reasoning of Indiana and pete.
    What I am pointing to, is the delusion that somehow, this bureaucratic infrastructure will not be going anywhere, despite what is ultimately determined as to CO2 emissions, and or ‘climate change’.
    One cannot establish a formalized cap and trade mechanism, enforced by law, have organizations take active positions, and then remove it. It’d be like the NYMEX de-listing all forward crude contracts tomorrow. It can’t happen without anarchy. And since we know that government spending reductions are met with hysteria, what future governments will continue to fund such bureaucracy.
    Alta has now pissed away $4 billion on sequestration, no less than in part to former premier Don Getty, who owns rights to some depleted gas fields near Genesee (wow, who saw that coming). And the feds will do the same – ploughing cash into crap. And connected politicos.
    That is not leadership. And that is not why I spent 14 years of my life living under the Librano flag, watching that mob screw this country, to end up with some lightweights who don’t understand what a promise and comittment actually is.
    So, we’ll all get to enjoy several billion tax dollars pissed away on feel good nothingness, with less fiscal capacity to actually improve education, reduce government spending and waste, and allieviate and address systemic and pervasive poverty in this nation.
    The point being: the Cons have not shown the leadership they should. None of the partisans have called them out on it. The professional apolgists abound, as the 148 patronage appointments made in the run up to the election call attest. And sadly, ‘conservatives’ here don’t recognize that this is EXACTLY the same as the Libranos pulled, year after year, election after election.
    Coyne is right. Conservatism is dead in this nation. Has been since Trudeau.

  21. Heard Hannha whatever(NDP for B.C)say that she still thought CO2 was a pollutant. When some gal called her on it,amount in atmosphere, etc. at least she had the guts to say I don’t know.But she still follows her illustrious leader. shut down AB oil-sands,and increase car production in Oddtario. Ummmm….wonder what those cars run on?? Oh right. Oil imported from Iran!!

  22. no, hardboiled, you are quite wrong. Your intense hatred of Harper and the Conservatives makes you incredibly biased.
    The Conservatives are not merging emissions and pollutants. That is what Dion is doing. Read his Green Shaft report, and Dion clearly talks about the emissions as pollutants. He’s merging them.
    The Conservatives are addressing two problems, emissions and pollutants. The Liberals only address one, emissions, which they define as ‘pollutant’. And, as we all know, they actually require these emissions because their tax income is based on the continued existence of such emissions.
    The Conservatives are addressing both emissions and pollutants. That’s air quality.
    They are also addressing, in a major way, water pollution, with their Action plan for clean water. This cincludes Cleaning up the Great Lakes (August 2007), and includes the great lakes, plus Lake Simcoe, Winnipeg, St. Clair River, other rivers. It includes ocean coasts. And includes infrastructural devt for water treatment plants in various towns and cities.
    Now, I know that none of this has any appeal to you. Your focus remains within your own emotional hatred. But, I think that facts are superior to personal emotions – which are isolate of facts.

  23. Given the declining fortunes of the MSM, you would think that they would jump at this opportunity. If correct, this poll reveals that the public is seeking more info on AGW. It is funny that there is only a few journalists questioning the consensus. I wonder if this is because of pressure from their employers, peer pressure or are the majority of journalists really true believers. I find the last explanation odd because I always thought that there was (historically at least) a rebellious nature among journalists.

  24. “are the majority of journalists really true believers. I find the last explanation odd because I always thought that there was (historically at least) a rebellious nature among journalists.
    Posted by: lynnh at October 2, 2008 3:50 PM
    ”
    lynnh…reporters rebellious??? They used to be,until they found out kissing the right a^$ meant you could be GG. BTW….where is she? Haven’t seen much of her lately. Back in Tahiti/Jammica/or wherever?

  25. Just got back from 19 days in Europe: Germany and the Netherlands to be exact. Guess what – and I am sorry to disappoint the lefties in Canada who feel that Canada is really the centre of the universe – not a thing about Canada anywhere. Nada, not over the BBC, CNN International, Skynet – nothing. For almost three weeks it seemed that Canada didn’t even exist and that a federal election was even taking place here. Why? Canada is irrelevant to most Europeans, Asians and Americans on the world stage. Akin to maybe Mexico, but maybe not. After all Mexico has sunshine and beaches and all-inclusives.
    No-one in Europe is looking to Canada or expecting our PM to take a leadership role on the environment. Heck, no one is even looking. And not one single mention anywhere in the media about Global Warming and Climate Change. How refreshing. BTW, highways are clogged but not in gridlock. Traffic moves anywhere from 100 (trucks) to 160 km/hr. Trucks are relegated to the inside lane, are forbidden to pass and are required by law to a maximum speed limit of about 100Km/Hr. Gas is around $2.25 Cdn a litre. No one is concerned about emission controls. They only have to look to Sweden and Norway to realize that cap and trade systems, carbon taxes etc are a recipe for economic disaster. Emissions are not coming down. Indeed, Germany and the Netherlands have and are investing quite heavily in road and highway infrastructure because they understand it is fundamental for a vibrant economy. Public transportation is fantastic and puts anything here to shame. Taxes are high but no higher than Canada’s. The Germans and Dutch are confident in their technology and are extremely innovative in their approach for solutions that will provide for clean air and clean water – but not AGW or CC – and not at the expense of their quality of life.
    Wake up lefties. You are being conned and lied to big time by the likes of Mayday, Demented and Lay-about.
    Jaymo

  27. ET and others defending the Conservatives.
    The Conservative do have the best pollution plan; but, they are still lying to us about AGW. Roy Green directly asked S.Day if he believed, and he did his best S.Palin/(deer in headlights) impression, then spewed leftarded BS. Billions are being wasted as Hardboiled says for a cause the the Conservative think is a farce. Guilty!

  28. Hey Indiana, what do you think would be the result of the election if the Conservatives said outright “Global warming is a farce, we don’t believe it”?

  29. jaymo – thanks for your post. Agreed, Canada is almost invisible on the world stage, though I think that Harper is getting approvals and noticed more and more.
    I also agree that Europe has realized that the AGW is a farce.
    Indiana Homez – I’m sorry but I don’t see where the billions are being wasted. I see money being spent on water clean-up, sewers and water treatment. I see money spent on new technology to develop more fuel efficient vehicles.
    I don’t see any billions, or even millions, wasted. Or even spent. Could you explain?

  30. ET
    It didn’t take long to find:
    “The federal and Alberta governments joined forces to kick-start a plan for a $1.5 billion pipeline that would ship unwanted CO2 from utilities and oil sands production to natural gas fields, where it would be either stored or used to tease out more gas from aging wells.
    Ottawa is contributing $156 million to help study the feasibility of the scheme, but Alberta Premier Ed Stelmach, who seems quite keen on the project, nonetheless warns it would still take several years to get rolling and that the $1.5-billion cost is from earlier estimates and may go much higher.”
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/capturing-carbon.html
    Legitimate environmental programs that deal with pollution have been canceled or have had funding cut so money can be redirected to the popular issue(GW). I won’t source this one but I’ve read articles and heard speakers on talk radio speaking to this issue.

  31. pete
    You make a good point and I’ve stated many times that I will vote Conservative. PMSH won’t release his Cabon plan until after the election, so IMO he doesn’t need a position on AGW to win this election, having one just sets the stage for him to start meddling after the election.
    I think that this goes much deeper than this election, this is about a new revenue stream for the government. This is why AGW will not be discussed in any debate tonight, the only discussion will be who has the best plan the fight the boogie man.
    Harper was on the right path when he asked provinces come under one flat sales tax. All things being equal(revenue that is) one big tax is better than 3 or 4 little taxes. Why? Simple, politicians get crucified for raising an existing tax, one tax can only go two ways, up or down; but, with multiple taxes politicians can raise one and lower the other(rob Peter to pay Paul). This is why we will pay for Carbon regardless of who wins, once we have it, we can’t get rid of it regardless of the Carbon issue( see GST and income taxes).
    Like many who comment here, I have a large amount of respect and admiration for PMSH an the Conservatives, I trusted them. I will pick who I think best represents my values and so on, but I can not trust someone who is lying to me, even if the ends justify the means. Perhaps some of you are correct and PMSH is just waiting out the storm and will not follow through, but from what I’ve gathered the “science is settled”; or, should I say the Carbon debate is on a need to know basis and Canadians don’t need to know.
    If Harper is successful decentralizing government and continues to move towards a EEE senate, I will take the good with the bad because if you add them up then you have the the “Facts of Life”. That is my #1 priority always, IMHO we wouldn’t be dealing with any of these issues (slowing economy, the boogieman, waiting lists, youth crime ect…) if we were a sovereign nation out west. As they say, you don’t pick your family and eastern/central Canadians are defiantly family so I will hang on as long as I can; but, if my lovely family keeps putting their nose in my business, steeling $ off my dresser and never lets me pick what we are doing or watching on television, eventually I’ll move out.

  32. indiana homez – a feasibility study is one thing. Nothing wrong with that. And, cutting emissions isn’t equivalent to declaring that emissions are causing global warming.
    I think that ‘legitimate programs’ has to be provided with some factual basis. People talking about it on the MSM are hardly an authoritative source. (ie, their use of ‘legitimate’ can be subjective).
    That emissions are destabilizing the envt can hardly be questioned. The question is, can this destabilization be met by the envt with a counter reaction that accepts this input? I happen to think that, up to a point, it can.
    That is, the biological envt is extremely flexible – up to a point – and can adapt to new chemical and other intrusions into an envt. Only so far. Pour chemicals into a river..and the fish will at first adapt and then die. Therefore, i don’t think that CO2 is the cause of ‘global warming’. BUT, any emission – even heat – affects the envt.
    Pollution is far more serious than emissions, in my view, and the Harper govt is investing a lot more in this area.

  33. The Tory platform is a complete crock. Cutting CO2 emissions by an absolute 20% in 12 years – during which time the population will grow by perhaps another 20% – will ruin the economy. It will place into the hands of the sitting prime minister and cabinet the Caesar-like power of life and death over all business in the country, by permitting them to either allow or disallow carbon exemptions. In other words corrupt indulgences will be sold to the sitting government’s cronies and friends. No wonder every major party platform is practically identical in this regard. The well born and well connected are going to get fabulously rich off of the misery of the plebes.
    And by the way, ET, it won’t clean your air. People will drive their old beater cars like those people in Cuba tooling around in 55 Chevys. They’ll scour woodlots and trash piles to find scraps of wood to burn in their woodstoves – much of it will be toxic, treated lumber and composite materials. That’s for people in the suburbs and in the country. Everyone else is going to be stuck in cold, stuffy Soviet-style concrete apartment blocks. Well, you’re probably thinking, at least in the concrete blocks they can easily spy on each other and report any carbon cheats. True enough.
    Did you think if you kill oil based industry that everyone in Canada is going to be riding around on solar-powered Segways from their wind-powered homes to cushy, high-payed jobs exporting hyperclean advanced inventions to the poor starving masses of the world who are desperate for Canada’s shiny green technology? You’re deluded. You already tried that with CANDU and it was a big, fat flop. If massive government investment and control of industry worked then East Germany would’ve been the richest country on earth.
    There is no choice in this election. It’s a referendum on whether your country should be reduced to the status of banana republic, with a political culture to match, and the only choices on the ballot are YES, AYE, OUI, OK FINE and HELL YES. The best possible thing that any right-minded person can do is stay home and deny the government-growers, power-grabbers and money-grabbers the moral high ground and the ability to say, “You voted, you participated in the selection of a nanny, now let’s see if you can touch your toes while we figure out who’s going to get carbon exemptions and who’s not.”

  34. Indiana homez
    you have to remember that not everyone is as smart as you, so they have to use your tax dollars to appear as smart as you
    now if people like you could understand how stupid you sound every time you “threaten” separation, maybe you would shut up and quit being another distraction for the politicians. You see it’s a tuff task trying to appease every special interest group!!!!

  35. “I think that ‘legitimate programs’ has to be provided with some factual basis. People talking about it on the MSM are hardly an authoritative source. (ie, their use of ‘legitimate’ can be subjective).”
    ET
    I didn’t say I couldn’t provide facts, I just didn’t. I won’t be at the pc anymore today but I hope to address this at a later date. I’m sure this very topic was discussed here in 08′.
    “a feasibility study is one thing. Nothing wrong with that. And, cutting emissions isn’t equivalent to declaring that emissions are causing global warming. ”
    As I said, S.Day said on the Roy Green show when he was asked if he personally believed in AGW “I traveled up north and spoke to the people and they all say that something is definatly changing”(paraphrasing). I think that qualifies as the Conservative acknowleging AGW and lying. Day doesn’t believe his own words, I can’t prove it but I’ll say this: I have been cursed with the ability to smell BS/a lier a mile/KM away, I have used this to my benifit in my career( in sales) but for the most part it causes more grief than good. Unfortunatly for me, when someone is lying to me I know; therefore, I can confront them and ruin personal relationships or I can bite my toungue and simply not trust that person anymore.
    Do you think it’s izzy to make priorities? I wish I could forget or ignore what is happening here. We will definatly be able to continue this discussion once the chips fall;-)
    ET
    Did you see ET yet?

  36. ye old ham – you have a lot of opinions but you don’t provide us with any facts to support your opinions. Therefore, they remain – just your subjective opinions.
    Actually, people can’t get their car registrations renewed without pollution checks. I’m sure you know that.
    And your ‘scouring lots for toxic wood’ is a laugh.
    Who says that the oil industry will be, or should be, ‘killed’? Who is advocating that? As for wind power, I think that’s a dead end; it can’t, to my knowledge, supply enough reliable energy to be widespread.
    Equally, I’m against massive govt intervention in anything – as is the Harper govt. I don’t know why you brought this red herring into the discussion.
    As for the rest of your post, that’s your subjective opinion. I leave it with you.
    Indiana Homez – no, I’ve never seen the film ET and wonder why you bring it up? What does that have to do with the discussion?
    I’m sorry, I don’t agree that Day’s comment is akin to accepting AGW. It appears to me to be only a comment that says that the climate is indeed changing. It says nothing about causality. And that’s hardly a novel opinion; and it has been changing, back and forth, since this planet was formed. So?
    Heh – I’m sorry, but your self-declared ‘ability to detect BS’ remains self-declared and hardly an objective value.

  37. You are right GYM, I should only bloviate on issues that are important to you.
    Separation is not a threat it is simply a desire of some people. I wish I archived some of my rants because it would be easier to cut and paste but here I go (quickly).
    We (Albertan’s) joined Confederation and we will leave when we see fit. We don’t require the approval, the understanding or the blessing of Central Canada, this is our right.
    I suppose you can add western alienation to the “settled issues” pile with abortion. If you just plug your ears and close your eyes it will just go away.
    Canada in our lifetime will not span from the east coast to the west coast, the question isn’t “if”, it’s “how”, “why” and “when”.
    I’ve never claimed to be smart, in fact I’ve often joked about my own ignorance(on SDA). What I find interesting is more often than not, when I comment something that isn’t quite mainstream and I expect to get slammed, people start to pop up in my defense. There was a time when I thought like you, that I was a red herring and “self determination” was “a special interest”, but to my surprise these ideas are very wide spread in these parts.
    GYM, perhaps you can answer this simple question:
    Why should Alberta stay part of Canada?
    (I’m looking for tangible benefits for my family, not touchy feely stuff.)

  39. ET
    Fair enouph, I can’t prove he’s lying( I said that already) just as a cop can’t prove someone is lying, but they have been trained to detect a lie. Day was asked a direct question and he danced around it, he could have said yes or no, but instead he chose to mislead us wrt his beliefs using anicdotal evidence as some type of proof. We can split hairs but IMO and you pointed out it is just MO, Day was being dishonest. As I said when the chips do fall we can pick up this convo, and I HOPE ALL OF YOU ARE RIGHT and I get a big I TOLD YOU SO from the smart guys like GYM.
    WRT the movie, a few weeks ago I and another commenter recommended you see it, I was just curious, I thought you’d enjoy it since you haven’t seen it. My bad:(

  40. From Vitruvius’ blog site
    Hubble Telescope
    The Most Important Image Ever Taken
    After viewing and pondering the vastness of the universe I am of the opinion that we as a species have absolutely ZERO knowledge about climate change on our little blue planet. It’s all BS (bad science). Unintended consequences are our future if we let politicians of any stripe lead the way. The vanity of those who think otherwise will lead us to certain doom. It just doesn’t matter. It (CO2) is just plant food fer crise sakes.

  41. “Equally, I’m against massive govt intervention in anything – as is the Harper govt.”
    They’re going to reduce CO2 by an absolute 20% in 12 years … but they’re against massive govt intervention.
    Thanks for the clarification.

  42. Canada in our lifetime will not span from the east coast to the west coast, the question isn’t “if”, it’s “how”, “why” and “when”. Posted by: Indiana Homez at October 2, 2008 7:20 PM
    Yep. And I can’t wait for the day.

  43. it is comforting to see other conservatives here, acknowledging the failures of and bull spewed by our ‘Consevative’ government.
    Party politics is exactly that – politics played for the benefit of the party, not the people.
    Until the people reassert their granted power to rule the nation, party ghouls and kleptocrats will continue to work for their own best interests, and against those of the citizenry.
    Reform II is coming, in whatever form. And we will strive and fight to regain control and results.
    It has been done before. This time, our success will be lasting.

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