“The “Cadscam” House party may yet get a second wind whether it is the business of Parliament or not.”
There is no joy in Dionville tonight. “It seems I’m not alone in feeling like I’ve been watching a highway accident unfold in slow motion.”
The coming equalization clash.
What US recession?
And I’m still completely, miserably sick, so I’m off to soak in neocitron.

CTV says one thing and the opposite of it?!…
in the Business section you can read this headline,
Oil prices fall as U.S. stockpiles rise
and in the World section this headline,
U.S. oil prices hit record highs as demand grows
Oil prices fall and hit record high at the same time ???!!!….
I supposed doing anti-USA propaganda 24/7 can get confusing…
I am no expert in this, but if suddenly millions of houses in the USA are being sold for peannuts, doesn’t that mean millions of people will be able to afford a house and will have money left to spend on other things, which in turn will help the economy?
And millions of people will buy those houses for peannuts, then sell them with a profit, which is money they will spend which on turn will help the economy?
The “equalization clash” article is a good one. I have felt for quite some time that the equalization clause in the Constitution will be the undoing of Canada.
Although I feel that equalization is a bad idea in principle because it is simply a socialist idea, I concede that, in certain circumstances, it does not have to be disastorous. The situation where equalization will do the least damage is one where the provinces will the most population are also the ones with the most money – the “have” provinces. As long as this situation holds, the provinces that are the main determiners of federal policy will the main payers of that same policy.
Once the less populated provinces become the “have” provinces, and the populated provinces become the “have-not” provinces, those who pay for federal services disproportionally are no longer the same as those who determine federal policy. In addition, those who determine federal policy now have the ability to make someone else pay for their policies. This will eventually end in the populous provinces requesting policies they would not have requested had they had to fund those same policies.
The transfer of wealth to the Western provinces in a country such as Canada that has an equalization program will continue to put stress upon the Dominion itself. If the transfer of wealth is a long-term phenomenom, then the only question to be asked is: will the transfer of populations to the Western provinces happen at a quick enough rate to allow thoem to become the most populous provinces before the stresses of equalization programs tear apart the Dominion?
It seems to me that populations migrate (decades) at a much slower rate than does wealth (years).
The coming battles over equalization are just beginning. Something has to give. Either:
1) Equalization has to end, or
2) The populations of Western provinces must exceed that of the rest of Canada, or
3) The Dominion will end
Paul Tuns: Human rights tribunals –
curb ’em or close ’em
http://theinterim.ca/2008/feb/12humanrights.html
“”The issue goes beyond gays and Muslims. As Borovoy has noted, it is impossible to draft speech regulations that silence certain (perceived) odious views without endangering all speech.
(…)
But if curbing the power of human rights commissions is difficult or impossible, then they should be shut down completely.
(…)
Every day that the human rights tribunals continue to operate under their existing mandates, our freedoms are imperiled. If a Canadian citizen can be hauled before an HRC to defend his right to express himself, he is not truly free. The survival of Canadian democracy is at stake.””
This article capsulized the issue articulately…it should be faxed to every sitting MP.
calculating an early easter plus a calculator site. from an email someone send me.
Easter is always the 1st Sunday after the 1st full moon after the Spring Equinox (which is March 20). This dating of Easter is based on the lunar calendar that Hebrew people used to identify passover, which is why it moves around on our Roman calendar.
Here’s the interesting info. This year is the earliest Easter any of us will ever see the rest of our lives! And only the most elderly of our population have ever seen it this early (95 years old or above!!!!!). And none of us have ever, or will ever, see it a day earlier! Here’s the facts:
1) The next time Easter will be this early (March 23) will be the year 2228 (220 years from now). The last time it was this early was 1913 (so if you’re 95 or older, you are the only ones that were around for that!!!!!!!!).
2) The next time it will be a day earlier, March 22, will be in the year 2285 (277 years from now). The last time it was on March 22 was 1818.
So, no one alive today has or will ever see it any earlier than this year!!!!!!
http://www.ely.anglican.org/cgi-bin/easter
Why Good People Believe Bad Things
Unconscious Anti-Semitism, Anti-Westernism and the Mainstream Media
How do people who are not anti-Semitic come to behave, think and speak in anti-Semitic ways? Why do well intentioned people who enjoy all the advantages of living in free and prosperous countries come to question and even revile the protectors of their good fortune? It has a lot to do with the way the media presents the world to us…
gord tulk – if the memory of Rae won’t fade, then why is he going to be elected on March 17th (I hope I’m wrong, but..).
I see Rae, as bluetech suggests – an Obama type.
In fact, my experience of that meeting last night, and admittedly it was only one meeting, was that it was HARRIS who was defined as evil, while Rae was defined only as a ‘spender’, but, heck, that’s life, that’s life.
The crowd seemed heavily NDP and Liberal and Green. I was surprised at the numbers; I got the sense that it was the same.. who always come…
Rae is being supported by the LLL (Leaside Lexus Lemmings) who are well-off, with govt jobs (civil service, health care, teachers) and who want this type of life with its unions, benefits, pensions to continue without any individual responsibility. He’s being supported by young people – that Obama idealism –
As for Ignatieff, my view is that he wanted an election now, to prevent Rae coming in. It might be hard for Rae to win in a general election but he’ll win that by-election. I’m going to suggest that Ignatieff will leave soon back to Harvard or other think tank. There is no role or future for him in that Liberal Party. And, having to sit beside Dion and rant at the CPC can’t be pleasant.
I think the BackRoom Boys of the Liberal Party have made a decision. The front room floor chose Dion – and they had no choice but to see if he’d work out. He hasn’t. They daren’t lose seats in an election. They have to rapidly insert a squeeky clean, genial, smiling, welcoming person – and that’s Rae’s Role.
Not Igatieff; he’s seen, now, as too cerebral and angry. Rae is The Pillsbury Man, he’s Obama, he’s kind and understanding and wants everyone to Love Each Other and Get Along.
Quebec. You’re right. They’re in trouble in Quebec. But, they’re going after Ontario and in particular, Toronto. They’ll be going afte Montreal and Vancouver.
In fact, I’m suggesting that Rae’s focus will be on the CITIES. He’s going to be the Minister of Cities – something the CPC should have set up LONG AGO. The Liberals are going to focus on seats in Montreal and leave the rest of Quebec to the CPC and Bloc.
Ted Kennedy no longer drinks and drives? So what, he’s still a Senator. And Rae’s laughing off the deficit will be viewed in a similar fashion. He’ll blame Harris, he’ll blame the federal govt; he’ll say he’s for the People.
Watch. My predictions:
1) Dion is going to be treated as the Liberal Nerd and left out to play by himself in the sandbox.
2) No election if the Liberals can help it until 2009.
3) Meantime, the Liberals will fling madeup scandal after scandal at the CPC, using their buddies the MSM, to set up an image of the CPC as corrupt.
4) Rae will be presented as the Genial, Wise, Kind, Open to All, Guy. The de facto leader, A Liberal Party that welcomes ALL (and that includes the ethnic vote).
5) Rae will be presented as the Minister for Cities and the focus will be on the vote in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver.
6) Ignatieff will be offered some high academic or other position and will leave.
If the NDP have any smarts, they’ll call an election soon, to prevent this Liberal Agenda. Harper may try for an election, but the Liberals and Bloc will try to vote against it. He needs the NDP’s assistance.
From Bourque: “Sexaddict Governor Spent $80K on Hookers”. Hmmm. Perhaps it’s not the kid’s summer camp that costs all that coin?
Further to the anniversary of the Star Wars speech:
(Via CSP) Radar Tech Could Shift Military Might
[P]eople watching the evolution of radar saw another step for a system that could have a dramatic effect on future world affairs, from American missile-tracking platforms in the Czech Republic to the ship-based defense of the Taiwan Straits.
The new radar system, called digital beamforming, could become a game-changing technology that may help defeat an overwhelming attack on U.S. warships by missiles. It could also answer one of the chief complaints about ballistic missile defense systems — that decoys or other countermeasures could easily hide a warhead and spoof interceptors. If placed on satellites, new spy and environmental monitoring missions become possible from orbit.
cal2: the potential fields that lie along the subsea continental edges are huge – the falklands 60BB reserve is just one of several most of them are in ice-free areas or, like the orphan basin off of NL, are in water deep enough that make the berg risk much easier to deal with.
The global oilsands reserves that can be unlocked by technolgies like this one – http://www.petrobank.com/hea-thaitechnology.html –
will unlock reserves that run into the trillions of barrels for (far) less cost and effort than SAGD, etc.
The key element is time – things like ill-concieved royalty and carbon tax measures could lengthen the timeline to production considerably
I guess what I was saying is, just because 65% of the world is covered in water it doesnt mean that we have only looked at 35% of the potential. most of the remaining reserves are along the contineal edges which are less than 10% of the water covered area. the last really hardly explored basin is the antarctic which should hold some analogous reserves to the bass strait. the falkland rise has been known as a potential basin for a long time. I saw a subsea map on it over 20 years go. there will be bugger all out in the deep pacific or the mid atlantic. subduction basins like the gulf coast still have potential but we are talking 2 miles of water and 4 miles of drilling over that. a few of the touted big finds have been less than expected “thunderdog”
makes the tarsands as a very viable option if you can access it.
my theory is oil only occurs in three remaining places. where there is a bad environment, bad location or bad government. no where else.
The grand ethanol hoax: Corporate welfare.
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams031208.php3
Ethanol contains water that distillation cannot remove. As such, it can cause major damage to automobile engines not specifically designed to burn ethanol. The water content of ethanol also risks pipeline corrosion and thus must be shipped by truck, rail car or barge. These shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.
Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank. That’s enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel — oil and natural gas — to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers — all of which are fuel-using activities. And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent.
Read it all…
Something about opening your mouth and removing all doubt…
A Mo museum. Wonder how they’ll do that with no pictures of the lecherous pedophile? And if they sanitize his genocides, asassinations, rapes, piracy, etc., what will they have left to exhibit? Thousands of idiots kissing a stone, cutting themselves and bleeding all over the place, I guess. Oh yeah, and tortured animals at eid. Maybe a head chopping sword or two. And the women’s Casper outfits.
“Dubai to set up Muhammad museum”
BBC News, Dubai
Dubai has been a bridge between East and West in commercial terms.
The Gulf emirate of Dubai has said it is to set up the world’s first museum dedicated to the Prophet Muhammad.
It aims to shed light on his life in 7th Century Arabia, as well as his legacy for the world’s 1.3bn Muslims.
There will also be a wing explaining the Muslim pilgrimage, or Hajj, and another for the other pillars of Islam.
Dubai, more usually known for its burgeoning commerce and tourism, is hoping to provide a bridge between the Islamic world and other countries.
The Prophet Muhammad Museum will be the first project undertaken by the Dubai Authority for Culture and Arts, which was established last week by the emirate in an attempt to widen its global appeal.
——————
Spread light on 7th century Arabia? Dubai Authority for Culture and Arts? Oh, pleaaase.
I have long thought that the equalization boondoggle is an area where we can cut out the middleman, in this case the feds. If Kaybec needs money to finance programs, let them go, cap in hand preferably, to say, a business oriented ministry in the AB gov’t, bringing their well thought out business plan with them. If the items in the plan meet with approval, a loan is offered, with solid repayment timetables. If it is a socialist wish list, deny the money! Easy!
Some people have estimated that there are 10 million empty houses in the US right now.
Add another 1.8 million this yr and 1.8 million for the next yr. Which probably means house prices will go down for the next 2 yrs.
Why buy now?
And people still need a decent paying job to get a real mortgage and as the US economy tightens up, there will less jobs.
UCLA must be reading different tea leaves than everybody else, or smoking a bad batch.
Or unless they think rich foreigners are going to ride to rescue and pump up their economy.
But if things are so rosy for UCLA, why are central banks AROUND THE WORLD dumping hundreds of billions of dollars in the world economy?
For the fun of it?
Get well soon Kate. I probably had the same bug this past week. Neo-citron and Advil for this Doc — that, and time.
no mention of hankypanky on the poop deck
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080311/ferry_report_080312/20080312?hub=TopStories
but it has been long speculated the hands werent on the wheel but the tiller.
Cold or flu – Oil of Oregano (P73) works fast everytime, but tastes absolutely brutal.
your right Irwin, doesnt resemble pizza at all.
buckleys tastes like ambrosia compared to oil of oregano.
So what’s with the bleeding heart leftoids in Canada anyway?
“Canada allowed an abused child to rot in prison” scream the headline at National Newswatch. Yep, another poor little Khadr op ed. This time from someone named Dan Gardner at the Ottawa Citizen.
Would somebody please put this non-story out of it’s misery.And by the way, the junior terrorist ended up at Gitmo back in 2002 which if I remember correctly was still during the reign of the lieberals. If memory serves me correctly that was also the time that Bill Sampson was on death row in Saudi Arabia and we all know how much the little guy from Shawinigan helped him.
will there ever be a story where a first nation accepts any responsibility for anything?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080312/fatalfire_folo_080312/20080312?hub=TopStories
Reminder. . . TAR SANDS … 9PM tonight..CBC.
Norway, China, India want to lease. No no no!
2 Billion$ to start.. 8 Billion$ to cook out oil.
Peter Lougheed, [thank God for reason] ** It*s not going anywhere…slow down, take it easy.**
Don*t miss it. 9:00 PM. = TG
remember last years man , ForLorne Calvert , he was trying to make a one off deal with the Chinese to lease the tar sands in Saskatchewan. you see , the prosperity on the Alberta side was to be jealous about , not to be emulated or shared with big bad corporations.
1. Get well soon Kate!
2. The US is in recession, this fact is hidden by the deliberate devaluation of the US dollar. The Fed has chosen to inflate the currency (remember Bernanke’s comments about dropping cash from helicopters?) instead of doing the proper thing, i.e., let bad debts be sorted out through liquidation. This may give the impression the economy still grows as more nominal dollars are printed, but sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost. Unless the Fed resorts to hyperinflation like Germany in 1923, deflation will have the upper hand. In both cases the middle class will be clobbered, like in the 1930s. Nothing here, just history repeating itself.
3. The oil ‘bubble’ is here to stay, even with the US economy on the blink. Yes, massive new projects are coming online between now and 2010, but this barely allows worldwide production to remain more or less constant, as declines from existing fields exceed predictions. Some say we may pay 1.50$ a litre of gas by the summer, which may occur if oil hits 150$ a barrel. This is not as far fetched as it seems, the declining US dollar & increased demand from Asia & flat production can do it.
4. Re. offshore oil as posted by Gord Tulk. We have been extracted offshore oil for decades, major producers like Norway, Mexico, the U.K. and Nigeria get most/all of their oil from sea fields.
5. The ’60 billion barrel oil find’ in the Falklands is not a real find, just speculation at this point.
To conclude, investing in oil/energy is a good idea, as long as enough strength remains in the world economy. Prices will keep going higher. ‘Optimists’ like Daniel Yergin and Michael Lynch have been predicting lower prices for years and have been consistently wrong. Good that I didn’t listen to them.
ET and Jim Travis … correct.
* * Rae, on stage, is smug, smooth and polished. * *
How soon after his election will he then win Libs leadership from Dion?
I forecast that here and have mentioned it on a couple of Liberal sites like Calgary Grit.
Interesting because Rea is a true threat and a worthy opponent. He will keep Harper and the CPC on their toes. All the better. = TG
GreenNeck,
* * Optimists’ like Daniel Yergin and Michael Lynch have been predicting lower prices for years and have been consistently wrong. Good that I didn’t listen to them.* *
Maybe 16.7 trillion in reserves and only 1.8 trillion of oil reserves consumed so far is why they thought as they did.
Politics, [ a blow-up in Iran / Pakistan / Venezuela ] and no new refinery will keep prices high.
Uncertainty in other words.
WSJ says demand has dropped 4.3 %.
TDI diesel, truck fleets like Safeway and Walmart going green, GM buses in 56 cities using 50% of normal fuels and a vast number of other efficiencies like hybrids, hybrid taxi fleets and Brazil on Ethanol is making a dent in oil demand.
ExxonMobile sees this coming and are getting us to pay off their capital costs early.= TG
“A radical foreign-policy adviser to Barack Obama — flushed from the shadows after calling Hillary a name — speaks volumes about her enigmatic boss and his worldview.
Power, 37, believes in projecting “soft power” — engagement, trust-building, debt cancellation, nation-building — rather than military might, even against terror states. She’s convinced Obama that simply reaching out to Tehran, not threatening it, will neutralize the nuts there.”
http://ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=290128154450510
“Maybe 16.7 trillion in reserves and only 1.8 trillion of oil reserves consumed so far is why they thought as they did.”
Not sure where you got these numbers, but in any event you’re confusing resources with reserves.
More accepted figures are 1.1 trillion bbl already consumed; 1.3 of proven reserves (including 0.2 trillion in Alberta’s oil sands); known oil in place is another 2-3 trillion. To arrive at 16.7 you need to include very speculative resources.
In any event the cost of oil is dependent on the producers ability to meet oil demand now, not in 50 years with still uninvented technology. The fact that resources are abundant doesn’t mean the rate of production will be. Just look at Alberta.
Your numbers only mean we’ll have oil for a long time, but production may still decline year over year, as it gets harder to produce the remaining oil. This is what gets called ‘peak oil’ and it has nothing to do with running out of oil.
We are nearing that point, and that’s why I’m an oil bull, no matter how much there is.
Two new Youtube “Lucy” videos, download ’em before they vanish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E8dwqimRkw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=c5PUSDbnHfo
With the never ending demand for plastics, paints, pills and potions, there is every reason to remain * * bullish on oil * *.= TG
from Hot Air
Canada has an estimated 1.6 trillion barrels of oil on its territory, much of it locked in tough-to-excavate tar sands in the province of Alberta. By comparison, oil-rich Saudi Arabia has an estimated 270 billion barrels left. It isn’t even close.
Yet, according to the Financial Times of London, Canada’s government recently sent U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates a letter of warning that it might not be able to sell the U.S. any of its oil, which the Pentagon desperately needs for national defense.
For that, you can thank the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, passed with great gusto and self-righteousness by the Democratic Congress.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/11/mullahs-or-mounties-which-do-we-prefer/
Former PMPM intervenes in Mexian money laundering case. The accused is 51 year old Brenda Martin.
Any relation?
http:/www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=368355
The Archbishop speaks:
http://www.cfra.com/chum_audio/Terrence_Prendergrast_Mar12.mp3
Meet Mockely Burka.
Mockely not funny, say Moh.
…-
Norway Welcomes Their New Overlords – Update: ‘Fashion Show’ is Actually an Art Project, But ABC News Doesn’t Mention It
Norway eagerly submits to the suppression of women, and ABC News helps with yet another sick, whitewashed series of excuses for misogyny: The Burqa Gets a Makeover.
Opening with this ludicrous statement:
The burqa is the wardrobe of choice for many Muslim women
UPDATE at 3/12/08 11:41:42 am:
Wow. Here’s an interesting update to this story, emailed by reader Kristian. It appears that this Norwegian “fashion show” is actually an art project, mocking the burqa—not seriously promoting it—and several Muslims watching the show were angry and humiliated. …-
http://tinyurl.com/ypasad (LGF)
TG- Rae won’t be the Liberal leader ‘de jure’. Only ‘de facto’. Dion is their duly elected leader and until he steps down or there is a review that knocks him off – Dion is The Leader.
I’m only saying that fewer and fewer of the Liberals will pay any attention to him. The MSM will also ignore him. The attention will be on Bob Rae.
I don’t think the CPC need to be ‘kept on their toes’; they can do that themselves. I worry about Rae because he’s unscrupulous and fits in well with the Liberal Strategy – which is singular – an unprincipled Agenda For Power.
That’s their only interest. How they obtain power; how they retain power – they don’t care about ethics or due process. Or the law. They are master manipulators and will do an ‘Obama’ on us by setting up a Canada-Of-Hope…along with Bob Rae.
I’m also betting Ignatieff will leave.
Exposing the heart of darkness of another socialist myth:
Love cheats, nepotism and corruption: royal scandal in the anthills of egalitarian society
Ants may be held up as ideals of social co-operation but they can be as sneaky as humans beings and their colonies are rife with corruption – with those from the royal line the worst offenders.
DNA fingerprinting techniques have shown that nepotism rules when it comes to determining which larvae grow up to be queens…
More on Geert Wilders and “Fitna”:
Joseph Loconte, The Latest Dutch Film Debacle
The sorry fact is that Holland and much of Europe are ill-prepared for a contest against religious extremism. This latest debacle is less about Islamist militancy, however, than about the moral vertigo created by Europe’s liberal and secular ideologies. European approaches to religion, pluralism, and immigration are failing miserably–and few seem to understand why or what to do about it…
Daveed Gartenstein-Ross and Kyle Dabruzzi, Inverse False Alarms
Law enforcement’s premature dismissal of terrorism as a motivating factor is puzzling–and harmful.
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/
check out the bit on the right side about lying.
Notice how there haven’t been any Liberal trolls around today. They’re TOO BUSY fighting among themselves. It all started when Cherniak advised LibLogs to get with the program. Some of them are really T’D off. One Blogger has quit and torn up his lIBERAL MEMBERSHIP CARD.
Cherniak does it again.
Along with George Baird, a CBC producer Christine Layfield, who dumped family to shack up with her employee George Stoumboloupolous is named World Economic Forum “young global leader”
Leadership sure ain’t what it used to be.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/03/12/global-leaders.html
“Liberals Mull Next Move in RESP Standoff”
cbc.ca
Liberals are meeting wed behind closed doors to decide whether to head to the polls over their education bill.
Flaherty said it would have the effect of draining $900million from the coffers & could plunge the Government back into a deficit. But the Liberals say the figure closer to $700million.
$900mill vs $700mill not much of a difference so how do the liberals figure that this would not be deficit territory, Remember the Gun Registry. The liberals have a way with quoting Numbers.
Martin hears a Who.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/12/martin-mexico.html
ET: “I’m also betting Ignatieff will leave.”
Me too. I’m just astonished that he’s stuck around as long as he has. After the fiasco that was the LPoC Leadership Convention, producing One Lame Duck Dion, I was thinking that Iggy should cut his losses and head back to academia at Harvard.
I’m sure his wife wishes he had.
…should HAVE cut his losses and HEADED back to academia.
Iggy does not look comfy in his seat. It is about to get even worse.
The old goalie, Dryden, is showing himself to be quite the tool, he’s coming off about as stunned as it gets.
Harvard economists’ study: Media’s anti-war rhetoric emboldens Iraqi insurgents
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/12/harvard-economists-study-medias-anti-war-rhetoric-emboldens-iraqi-insurgents/
Not that it’s a huge surprise, but in case anyone is interested in what one of WK’s kids is up to:
“Anti-Racist” Defends Pro-Terror Anti-Semite
MSM does not mention/use: AGW, global warming, climate change in this piece.
The culprits are the socialist controllers/ academics/boffins/technoc-rats from the south, aka the crushing bureaucracy of Big Government.
“Paulusi Novalinga said the frigid waters of the Hudson Strait, off the northern coast of Quebec, are teeming with beluga.”
“”We’re suffering here and people from universities, who think they know everything because they come two weeks out of every year, make our quotas,” he said.””
“”Every man is his own king when he’s out on his own land,” said Novalinga, whose association, Anguvigaq, represents 5,000 hunters.
“When you live there your whole life, nobody can tell you what to do.””
…-
Inuit beluga hunters say food source, culture threatened by shrinking quotas
By Andy Blatchford, THE CANADIAN PRESS
http://tinyurl.com/33dh6d
Kate ..I hope by now you are feeling better…and WOW!…You could right a book about all these interesting remedies…almost makes me want to get sick so I can try them!!…lol
no…not really.
Just curious…did you get the flu shot?
(Hope not!…that’s stuff for another post)