Moving on from the discussion HERE:
… The problem though, as I see it, is an enormous missunderstanding in the West as to what “moderate” means in the context of Islam. Hardly a commentator or pundit takes the time to determine the meaning of “moderate Islam”, yet casually tosses the term about willy-nilly.
Let me suggest therefore, a definition for moderate Muslim based in Western values … a definition that just may challenge our understanding. After all, we constantly read about and hear the term, “moderate Muslim majority” , as if it is a fact. I don’t at all intend to censure or judge the basic “goodness” of any man or woman, but do want to demonstrate that casual use of the term “moderate Muslim” may be ill-conceived.
keep reading …
An Interview to Think By:
RE: Palestine and Israel
1. An equal amount of Jews were expelled from Arab regions as Arabs from Israel.
This should take the wind out of the sails of the “but the Refugee Camps” arguement. Jews lived in concentration and death camps before fighting for their own country.
2. The Israelis keep winning the wars.
The only way to maintain sovereignty over an area is to defend it with the military. Israel has done this efficiently and effectively.
3. No one was anywhere first.
The first footprint argument is pointless. Things are as they are now. Expelling or killing the Jooz so that the Palestinians may return to ‘their’ land is retarded. I would argue that anyone who believes this is retarded.
4. Anti Israel and Antisemitism is the same thing.
Saying you hate a nation is saying you hate those who live in that nation. It’s easy for people to hate Israel because there has been a history of people hating the Jewish for millenia.
5. How will destroying (or censuring) Israel make the world a better place?
For real. I want to know.
Yeah good point John. Just a minute, my bomb vest is getting a bit tight. I notice you have something in common with Islamist killers – you’re both total idiots.
When I am referring to Israeli occupation, I refer to the lands of the West Bank and Gaza.
You do realize Gaza was given to the paleostinians. There were Jews in the west bank long before Arabs and the paleostinians have a home on the east bank- Jordan. When you refer to occupation you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Does that mean that if a group were in one area and moved away for whatever reasons, that their descendants, no matter whether ‘direct’ or vastly indirect – have the right to claim ownership of that land for all time? I absolutely don’t accept that.
First off Jews have always been within Israel including during all the occupations. Secondly, Jews bought the vast majority of the land which you are wholly ignorant of. You didn’t even realize the Turks owned much of the land nor were you even aware of the business relationship between the Jews and the effendi. I dare to say you hadn’t heard of the Grand Mufti until I mentioned it and Matt’s article mentioned him, although by his name al-Husseini. On what grounds do you claim that the land belongs to the Arabs?
Your arguments are rooted in emotion, no facts whatsoever.
Not that this is the greatest indicator of success, but in Mississauga there are numerous newly-built houses of worship (note to downtown Toronto metrosexuals: religion isn’t on the wane; come to the ‘burbs and see it in action). To my knowledge there is only one large mosque/Islamic compound, that being the ISNA site at the QEW and Erin Mills Parkway.
The ISNA of course have been identified as unidicted co-conspirators in the U.S. government’s investigation of the Holy Land Foundation, and allegedly receive funding from Saudi Arabia (the Catholics, God bless ’em, plunked a school down right next to them).
Aside from that I only know of one other purpose-built mosque, while the rest reside in out of the way industrial buildings.
Contrast that with the Copts, who after having suffered at the hands of Muslims, have come to Canada I would guess in roughly the same time-frame and have built a rather massive church and compound on Eglinton. They also have this rather curious new church on Dundas that is attached to a pharmacy (!).
Their numbers are significantly smaller but their output appears to be equal.
Even though there are a lot of Muslims in Mississauga, it’s hard to detect any external signs of success; there are a few grocery stores and shawarma shops. That’s about it. Same thing in Toronto – shawarma seems to be the extent of it.
ET says:
“I refer you to the 1949 Knesset act ‘Emergency Regulations relative to property of absentees’, the 1949, ‘law of acquisition of absentee property; the definition of refugees as ‘absent’; the impossibility of a refugee from returning to his land; the acts of the Custodian..etc, etc.”
Oh I see, after its war of Independence, Israel should have just let the people who were trying to destroy them back in to live among them – yup I’m sure that would work out splendidly.
“A parallel can be drawn to the time of the American Revolution, during which many colonists who were loyal to England fled to Canada. The British wanted the newly formed republic to allow the loyalists to return to claim their property. Benjamin Franklin rejected this suggestion in a letter to Richard Oswald, the British negotiator, dated November 26, 1782:
Your ministers require that we should receive again into our bosom those who have been our bitterest enemies and restore their properties who have destroyed ours: and this while the wounds they have given us are still bleeding!”
After the 1948 war, Israel did make a substantial repatriation offer during these negotiations. The government said it would accept 100,000 refugees in a general settlement of the problem. Israel hoped that each Arab state would make a similar commitment. This offer was rejected.
On April 1, 1950, the Arab League adopted a resolution forbidding its members from negotiating with Israel.
The Israeli government was not indifferent to the plight of the refugees; an ordinance was passed creating a Custodian of Abandoned Property “to prevent unlawful occupation of empty houses and business premises, to administer ownerless property, and also to secure tilling of deserted fields, and save the crops….”47
The implied danger of repatriation did not prevent Israel from allowing some refugees to return and offering to take back a substantial number as a condition for signing a peace treaty. In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees.48
The Arabs rejected all the Israeli compromises. They were unwilling to take any action that might be construed as recognition of Israel. They made repatriation a precondition for negotiations, something Israel rejected. The result was the confinement of the refugees in camps.
Despite the position taken by the Arab states, Israel did release the Arab refugees’ blocked bank accounts, which totaled more than $10 million, paid thousands of claimants cash compensation and granted thousands of acres as alternative holdings.
While Jewish refugees from Arab countries received no international assistance, Palestinians received millions of dollars through UNRWA. Initially, the United States contributed $25 million and Israel nearly $3 million. The total Arab pledges amounted to approximately $600,000. For the first 20 years, the United States provided more than two-thirds of the funds, while the Arab states continued to contribute a tiny fraction. Israel donated more funds to UNRWA than most Arab states. The Saudis did not match Israel’s contribution until 1973; Kuwait and Libya, not until 1980. As recently as 1994, Israel gave more to UNRWA than all Arab countries except Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Morocco.
Andrew,
The reason why Muslim Canadians are better educated than Roman Catholic Canadians is that Muslim Canadians had to prove their worth to our immigration board to be allowed in the country. The Catholics on the other hand are “modern indigenous”, meaning they are second, third, 4th and 5th generation Canadians, not required to prove their worth.
I think it’s telling that no one ever speaks of how great Palestinians are, only how terrible the Jews are.
You GO Apollyon. ET is mostly terrific but has the wrong narrative here. A testament to the virtuosity of Arab propaganda.
ET: There has never been any compensation for the 850,000 or so Jewish refugees from Arab lands — who lost everything. The number is greater than the “Palestinian” refugees.
You are technically incorrect in describing the WB and Gaza as occupied lands. More like No Mans Lands. Israel took it in defence against 5 Arab aggressor countries AND no peace was established. And also most curioulsy, perhaps for the first time in history, the victor sued for Peace — unsuccessfully.
As to your sentamentalism about “occupation” curious how the invented people, the “Palestinians” had no issue with Egypt’s occupation of Gaza and Jordan’s occupation of the West Bank post 1948.
I believe this is right:
In world history land taken in a defensive war is considered the property of the victor. If I’m not mistaken, only in the case of Israel has the UN made a resolution making possession of land taken in a defensive war illegal.
You know who worries me as much as crazy Muslims? You guys. You all have a lot in common. You should get together… you’d probably like each other.
Yeah, we both breathe air and drink water, we’re almost indistinguishable.
Ex-liberal, Mississauga Matt, Jon, Hans, Shamrock, Irwin, Me No Dhimmi, and others, as a Jew I thank you for fighting the propaganda. I will give ET the benefit of the doubt and say he/she is arguing in good faith, the problem is, he/she has no knowledge of the region or the chronology, just regurgitated arab propaganda.
The paleostinians have paved the path for the jihadists; lets not forget arafat is the godfather of airplane hijackings. The paleostinians have shown the world that terrorism pays; Al Qaeda has taken note. As the paleostinians say; “From the Jordan to the sea”, which translates as they want all of Israel with the Jews pushed into the sea. Then you have the muslim saying of “First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people”, which translates as first we’ll kill the Jews and then we’ll kill the Christians. ET, you seem to recognize muslim barbarity throughout the ME but in Israel you have this cognitive dissonance as to believe the paleostinians are somehow above this Islamic madness. Ironically the paleostinians are some of the more depraved jihadists.
John:
The thread topic, Dr. Wafa Sultan, practicing muslim.
Do you consider her remarks racist or “islamophobic”?
sda for linking to the interview?
Discuss. Here’s your chance.
apollyon – Judaism predated Christianity as well.
It matters because it shows you how long the Jews have been there; over 5,000 years. It matters because it seems your unsubstantiated claim that Jews “stole arab lands” is rooted in the fact that Arabs were, in your warantless opinion, there first. Who did the Arabs steal their land from? Would you care to prove that arabs somehow bought the land from the Jews who were there long before them?
There is no shame in being wrong, there is shame in choosing to be willfully ignorant because the reality doesn’t sit well with your preconceived notions.
“The reason why Muslim Canadians are better educated than Roman Catholic Canadians is that Muslim Canadians had to prove their worth to our immigration board to be allowed in the country.”
Thank you, Captain Axiomatic. Why do you hate science? Surely if you aren’t just wanking you have some data to actually disprove what I am saying rather than spewing the obvious, so let’s see it.
Better yet, why don’t you Islamophobitards pool your money together and hire a smart person to make an argument on your behalf, because you have been found wanting. Seriously, don’t just blurt out hatred, let’s see some freaking numbers for once.
And not emo-numbers like 911 and 2,997, I want to see applied science showing that AS COMPARED TO OTHER IMMIGRANT GROUPS AND ACTUAL CANADIANS it can reasonably be argued that Muslims should be banned from immigrating to Canada.
Personally I would like to see a 5 year immigration freeze. Hardcore enough for you? It’s just the stupidity of singling out Muslims that offends me.
Kind of trying to get back on topic. What no one has asked or answered here in the rush to embrace “moderate Islam” is “why should Islam moderate?”. The west represents everything Islam views as evil. We brag of sexual freedom the Muslim calls it sexual deviancy and a great evil. We boast of our wealth and the Muslim calls it crass commercialism where the only reason you didn’t sell your mother is because its against the law. We boast of our schools and universities and the muslim laughs at our naivity for not understanding the foolishness of what is being taught. We boast of the emancipation of women and the muslim laughs at our hypersexualized culture. Point of fact is that Islam will not moderate to meet our standards because our standards are evil in the mind of the Muslim. All our wishing and wanting isn’t going to moderate Islam. The best the west can hope for is every muslim who lives in the west fails to pracice the core beliefs of his religion and every muslim living in muslim lands fails to launch an attack on western lands.
Andrew,
Please show me where I was Islamophobic. Also, you asked the question about Catholics, muslims and education first. Show me how my axiom is wrong.
I don’t support any immigration ban. I do support selecting the best and brightest to replace our best and brightest (who all move to the States where taxes are lower).
I could make up imaginary numbers but I’d rather let you prove to everyone that you’re retarded. How many Muslims lived in Canada before we introduced qualification based immigration reform? Maybe we should play the game of “Why is my doctor a muslim?”
“Not a single data point to counter my claim that Muslims are more successful than white people in Canada?”
Andrew,
Please show me where I was Islamophobic. Also, you asked the question about Catholics, muslims and education first. Show me how my axiom is wrong.
I don’t support any immigration ban. I do support selecting the best and brightest to replace our best and brightest (who all move to the States where taxes are lower).
I could make up imaginary numbers but I’d rather let you prove to everyone that you’re retarded. How many Muslims lived in Canada before we introduced qualification based immigration reform? Maybe we should play the game of “Why is my doctor a muslim?”
“Not a single data point to counter my claim that Muslims are more successful than white people in Canada?”
That was a major ass-whupping you laid on ET there, ex-liberal. Good job.
It is imperative to reject the Arab narrative on the subject, for it is a lie.
That was a major ass-whupping you laid on ET there, ex-liberal. Good job.
It is imperative to reject the Arab narrative on the subject, for it is a lie.
Posted by: Mississauga Matt at October 5, 2007 6:42 PM
Thanks MM. I missed ex-Liberal’s ass-whupping at 5:40 pm. Splendid. In fact I’m copying this to my ammo file on the subject.
And yes, “for it is a lie”. Amen. BIG LIE.
apollyon – I’m standing by my claim that ‘First Footstep’ is an invalid claim for land ownership. The fact that Jews have ‘always lived there’ doesn’t mean that they have the right to take over the homes and farms of Palestinians who have legal title to those homes/farms.
After all, to use your argument, that would mean that natives in N. America, who have ‘always lived here’ would have legal right to this nation and all homes and farms.
ex-liberal; that’s ridiculous. An analysis based on economics is not a Marxist analysis! What nonsense. All people must live within an economy; does that mean that any and all analysis of their basic subsidence is Marxist? Don’t you know what a Marxist analysis implies??? [ a class conflict, a linear historical progression to utopian non-ownership..etc.etc.[
Islamic fascism is an ideology that has externalized the situation in Islam and the ME. Rather than facing the problem of political tribalism, Islamic fascism posits a utopian system…etc.etc I’ve defined political tribalism and Islamic fascism so mny times I won’t repeat it. Obviously – most of you have ignored the outlines.
To state that because Jews were expelled from Arab lands justifies expelling Palestinians, without compension – is ethically and morally untenable.
Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to anti-semitism.
No, the 1948- regulations about the property of ‘Absentees’ can’t be defined as ‘preventing them from attacking us’. After all, these Palestinians had fled Israel; they hadn’t attacked anyone, and there was no proof that they would if allowed to return. Of course, since a basic axiom of Israel is a Jewish majority population, then, it is obvious they wouldn’t be allowed to return.
But, ethically, morally – the right thing for Israel to do – would have been to have paid compensation!!!!
Heck – even the land grabs by the Europeans in N. America – the vast treaties over land and resources – were compensatory, no matter how trivial the amounts were to our modern eyes.
no, apollyon, your claim that the Jews bought all the land from the Turks and Grand Mufti (and of course I’ve heard the name; I’m not quite as ignorant as you think)…the homes and farms owned by the Palestinians were not bought.
Joe – why should Islam moderate? It has no choice. In the ME, it HAS to moderate. It has to enable its people to THINK, to do their own technological devts and not rely on foreigners; it has to enable its people to move into science. And, it has to move out of political tribalism, which empowers an elite tribe and reduces the rest of the population to ‘serfs’.
This mode of non-thought and uninvovlement in the economic, and political actions of the society may have been viable in smaller populations, but the ME populations have grown too large to disempower the vast majority of their citizens. And, these people have become urban rather than rural. They have to develop an ideology that permits the population to think, to question, to explore…rather than to sit passively and let a few authoritarian leaders make all the deicision.
Then, the ME must move into industrialism; It can’t rely on one resource, oil, extracted by the technology of foreigners – and simply subsidize its population from this revenue. It must enable its people to industrialize, develop industries, services, etc.
It must enable the devt of education, universities and science. That means that it must free its population from its old patriarchal lifestyle, it must consider the genders equal, educate women…on and on.
In the ME, they have no choice. They must move out of the 7th c. and into the modern industrial world. That also means that they must move into democracy – to empower the whole population rather than just one elite tribe. The ME must permit the devt of a middle class – who are free to think, work, innovate.
They will; they are fighting against it. Islamic fascism is an attempt to retain political tribalism. But – they have no choice. It will come.
The problem is, that the ‘old way’ is being exported as a cultural system, into the West. So, we have massive immigration into the West, where they live within an industrial economy, BUT, maintain their 7th c. mindset. And demand that we accomodate this mindset – of gender inequality, of sharia law, etc, etc. We must refuse.
no, apollyon, your claim that the Jews bought all the land from the Turks and Grand Mufti (and of course I’ve heard the name; I’m not quite as ignorant as you think)…the homes and farms owned by the Palestinians were not bought.
What farms did the Arabs have? They weren’t allowed to own land for the most part, it was owned by the Effendi/Turks.
ET, you simply do not know what you’re talking about. I just read a post of yours on another thread and it was excellent. I have no idea how you reconcile your views.
“Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in 1867, shortly before the commencement of modern Jewish resettlement, and described it as “a desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds—a silent, mournful expanse… A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.” According to the careful population figures of the Ottoman Empire, in 1882 (at the very beginning of the modern, organized Jewish immigration back to the ancestral home), the total population of land between the Jordan and the Sea was less than 250,000 – in an area that today supports ten million people, Israelis and Palestinians.
The resettlement of the sparsely populated Holy Land by the descendants of its ancient inhabitants, however, did not take place solely in the modern era. Throughout Jewish history, waves of returnees came back to the sacred soil of their ancestors. In the 8th and 9th centuries, A.D., Jewish immigrants re-established major communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias; by the 11th Century, they had built new communities in Jaffa, Ashkelon, Caesarea and Rafah. In the 16th Century, more Jewish immigrants developed the famous center of mysticism in Safed and beginning in the 1700’s religious scholars and pilgrims intensely repopulated Jerusalem.
The Jewish connection to Israel, in other words, remained impassioned and unbroken for some three thousand years, while the British connection with North American began only in 1607 (with Jamestown) and 1620 (with the Pilgrims at Plymouth). No European settlers to the New World claimed an ancient connection to the land they discovered, developed, and gradually populated. Moreover, the Native Americans who preceded them came to the Western Hemisphere across the land bridge from Asia at the very latest some 13,000 years before the White Men arrived, while the Arabs appeared in Israel for the first time in the 7th Century.”
ET: Did you read ex-Liberals post at 5:40pm. It demolishes your compensation argument.
But ET is correct that the Jews bought the land from private persons — often at highly inflated prices that the Arabs found amusing.
And it is true that the Zionists held the fallacious understanding that it was “a land without a people for a people without a land”.
BUT, they bought the land, didn’t steal it, or pilfer it as a friend tried to claim today.
AND they definitely did not harbour a plan to eject the Arabs.
Both of which are the principal lies that pro-Arab leftists have swallowed.
After all, these Palestinians had fled Israel; they hadn’t attacked anyone, and there was no proof that they would if allowed to return.
ET, let me tell you why they left. When the British made “palestine” a UN problem and the UN decided to partition Israel the Arabs vowed to kill all the Jews the day this went into effect. They told the paleostinians to leave for the borders while they kill all the Jews and then allow the Arabs to return to confiscate Jews homes and businesses. The Arab armies prepared to crush the Jews but surprise, surprise, the Jews, outnumbered and equipped, beat the crap out of the Arab armies. Again, you have said nothing about the approx 1 million Jews purged from their homes and lands throughout the ME.
From the Book From Time Immemorial:
Prior to the 1948 war Arab leaders invited Arabs in Israel to leave and come to the borders while the Arab armies destroy the Jews. The Arabs were convinced it would be a slaughter, and told the Arabs in Israel to flee at once; it was to be in their best interest. The Arabs obviously had it backwards on who would get slaughtered.
According to a report by the Arab sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut had these findings: “The majority of Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled, and 68% left without seeing an Israeli soldier”.
Estimates range from 430,000 to 650,000 of Arabs who fled Israel due to Arab propaganda.
In 1958, former director of UNRWA Ralph Galloway declared angrily while in Jordan: “The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations, and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die.”
Arab leader King Hussein 1960: “Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner….They have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even criminal”.
I don’t think ET actually reads my post so here is some more information (available at CAMERA and Myths and Facts).
• Arabs refused Israel’s 1949 offer to unconditionally admit 100,000 Palestinians
As a goodwill gesture during the Lausanne negotiations in 1949, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees prior to any discussion of the refugee question. The Arab states, who had refused even to negotiate face-to-face with the Israelis, turned down the offer because it implicitly recognized Israel’s existence.
Despite this, on humanitarian grounds Israel has since the 1950’s allowed more than 50,000 refugees to return to Israel under a family reunification program, and between 1967 and 1993 allowed a further 75,000 to return to the West Bank or Gaza. Since the beginning of the Oslo process Israel has allowed another 90,000 Palestinians to gain residence in PA-controlled territory.
• Israeli compensation to Arabs who lost property
Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel’s Custodian of Absentee Property. As of the end of 1993, a total of 14,692 claims had been filed, claims were settled with respect to more than 200,000 dunums of land, more than 10,000,000 NIS (New Israeli Sheckels) had been paid in compensation, and more than 54,000 dunums of replacement land had been given in compensation. Israel has followed this generous policy despite the fact that not a single penny of compensation has ever been paid to any of the more than 500,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who were forced by the Arab governments to abandon their homes, businesses and savings.
Thanks MM, me-no-dhimmi, Apollyon, Jon, Hans and everyone else who challenges ET on her position. She is well respected here and thus other readers who do not know so much on this subject may take up her erroneous view. I say that she is “Marxist” because she boils the whole thing down to materialism (their land was stolen, etc) – but I maintain that it is an ideological problem within Islam – Islam will never be moderate until it can accept Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
I too am Jewish and will not be silent while people tell lies about Jews and Israel. I have seen and heard ET’s perspectives from many relatives and friends who basically take the standard leftist position: “it’s our fault”
ET’s perspectives from many relatives and friends who basically take the standard leftist position: “it’s our fault”
Ex-liberal, many in the West particularly those on the left suffer from White Guilt, the American liberals have a chronic case of this pitiful mindset.
I too am Jewish…….ex-liberal
Shabbat Shalom.
ET: Read ex-liberal’s 5:40pm post. And the new one at 7:29pm.
Splendid work ex-liberal. I am not a Jew but feel the same way about Israel as I did at age 18 in the summer of 1967 and remain mystified as to how the world, which then cheered, turned.
I believe I now understand how that happened. Arab propaganda (Nazi- taught), the finest propaganda in world history. Bar none. And of course The Euro-Arab dialogue so exquisitely documented by the amazing Bat Ye’or.
ET, usually a logical and wise commentator, seems wilfully blind on this issue. It is somewhat disturbing to me.
Somewhere along the way I read that the Pals, on a per capita basis, have received more funds than did western Europeans under the Marshall Plan.
Given that, the compensation outlined above, the fuel, water, electricity, jobs, etc that Israel provides, the Pals have been amply compensated.
ET,
I have not added to this palestinian (BTW, I like paleostinian, very appropriate) argument on this thread, despite your earlier claim. Now I must. There is no such thing as the Palestinians as they define themselves now. It is an historical fraud. Do you really believe the ballooning population of those so-called arabs who claim to be Palestinians actually are? If so, you disapoint me.
Despite the fact we don’t agree on everything, you have always exhibited a great ability to reasor. However, on this point you are glaringly wrong. Todays so-called Palestinians are the modern day exemplars of terrorism, by the book, otherwise called the Quran. Compare them to others who have a legitimate claim to lands such as the Tibetans. There is no comparison. Oscar Wilde said, “The first sign of genius is contradiction.” Given the historical evidence against your claim, perhaps you should consider changing your wrong-headed POV.
“It matters because it shows you how long the Jews have been there; over 5,000 years. It matters because it seems your unsubstantiated claim that Jews “stole arab lands” is rooted in the fact that Arabs were, in your warantless opinion, there first. Who did the Arabs steal their land from? Would you care to prove that arabs somehow bought the land from the Jews who were there long before them?”
The ten tribes of Israel were established there around 2000 BC, no? The Jews represent two tribes – Judah and Benjamin, with a sprinkling of the priestly cast – the Levites thrown in.
The ‘Arabs’ were nothing more than tribal nomads up to the time of Mo. To call most of the people in the mideast Arab is a major historically lie. In fact, take a look at the statuary and mummies in Cairo and elsewhere from the earlier Egyptian kingdoms. Red and blonde hair, painted blue eyes. Hardly Arab, unless they were into hair dying and colored contact lenses. Medes, Hittites, Assyrians, Phonecians, etc. the fertile crescent was a mix of Semetic and Indo-European people. Even the original east Indians venture a claim on ‘Abrahm-Abraham’ as nomenclature of the title ‘Bramah.’
Apollyon,
While I am not Jewish, I sympathize with the J-Team. The reasons are pretty simple. I feel guilty for centuries of European antisemitism. I am afraid of a middle east without a democratic and pro American influence. I also think girls firing guns is pretty hot (Thanks IDF!).
From what I can tell, the only reasons for the support of Palestinians over Israelis in North America are antisemitism and the bleeding-heart knee jerk response to cheer for the underdog (I know that there are 250 Million Arabs to 10 Million Jews, but the Arabs are still underdogs in this one).
As we’ve all argued, “we were here first” isn’t a valid argument, it’s cyclical and impossible to prove without belief. Why do the Palestinians lack the solidarity of other Arab nations? If their neighbours do not appreciate them, why should I?
Posted by: Apollyon at October 5, 2007 7:15 PM
That article was written by [I believe] Michael Medved and can be found at Townhall; the url is too long to post.
I’d like to repeat Mar Twains comment from a trip to “palestine” in 1867…..
“a desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds—a silent, mournful expanse… A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.”
Actually, I’m not a leftist; I’m conservative, which means, in most semantic terminology, ‘right’. And I don’t suffer from ‘white guilt’.
I maintain my points. I’ve read all posts – and I disagree with the conclusion that no individual owned land in Palestine – that it was all state land; and that valid compensation was paid.
I also disagree with the definition of Marxism- I’m not sure what YOU mean by ‘materialism’, but, if one is talking about land and farms and homes, then, these are obviously ‘material’, but such a discussion doesn’t make that ‘materialism’ or Marxism! What an invalid definition!
The only thing we might agree on, is that the Arab States themselves had no interest in the Palestinians – considering them for the most part, illiterate peasants. I absolutely agree with your quotes, apollyon.
I don’t see why the Arab States should accept the Palestinians as citizens.
Why only 100,000 of the 700,000 refugees? How would they have been selected in this ‘goodwill gesture’?
50,000+ refugess have returned? From the original 700,000? About 2 and 1/2 million dollars settled? For about 15,000 claims? That’s about $166 per claim. That’s rather similar to the Canadian treaties we made with the natives, which bought huge tracts of land for a new suit for the chief every five years, and $5 per person. Was the replacement land similar in arable productivity, in location etc?
No, I’m not a leftist, not a marxist (again, how could you define ‘marxism’ in such a manner). Not an anti-semite. And I fully accept Israel’s ‘right to exist’. But – not for any First Footprint reason. Nor for the mythic argument (Mark Twain example) of ‘Incompetent use of the Land’. Nor because the Land was Empty. Nor for ‘Might Makes Right’. Nor for ‘God Gave Us the Land’. I accept it for pragmatic reasons. They are there.
Just as the English had to accept William The Conquerer. And the English had to accept the US Revolution. And the natives had to accept colonization. And Europe and its nations are..because they are. I acknowledge the reality of the events.
BUT – that doesn’t mean that the people who were living there for centuries, should be flung away without compensation. Should be treated in a ‘tu quoque fashion (You didn’t compensate the Jews you threw out, so we won’t compensate the Palestinians we threw out). The reality is that Israel doesn’t want them in Israel because that would negate the Jewish majority. Fine. Then compensate them. And at a decent evaluation.
Jon,
“Why do the Palestinians lack the solidarity of other Arab nations?”
The so-called Palestinians are doing a very nice job for the ummah as agitators. Support defeats the ‘victimization’ purpose.
As far as ‘belief’ is concerned, check the facts – archeology. In fact, the Jews never left.
The Arabs create deserts. The Jews cultivated and made rich a barren land. If it’s in the bitch it’s in the pups. An old Yiddish saying.
Jon, you nailed it. You’re an honorary member of the Evil Zionist Cabal as are the other good people here, even ET.
To deny the Jews their God given right to their inheritance from God, the land they inhabited for millennia, lacks any merit. There is no land on earth -in the history of mankind -inhabited by a people with greater ties to it than the Jews with their land of Eretz Israel. It was written millennia ago and so it has been. We have watched empires dominate and crumble while persecuting us all throughout, the Romans, Ottomans, Greeks are all but a footnote in history yet we live on and strive.
“When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: “Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory.”
“In the ME, it HAS to moderate”
Oh? Why? Because we think they need to modernize?
hahahahahaha
If your belief system has lasted for 1400 years and you are more than satisfied with it why change it?
The point is we think we see a reason for them to moderate they don’t.
I can tell a drunk all the advantages of being sober but he will still buy another beer. I can tell a swinger all the advantages of being chaste but he will still participate in the next orgy. I can show a Mormon that Joseph Smith didn’t accurately translate the papyri but he will still go to temple next time there is a gathering. You can argue with John Cross about CO2 driven AGW but he still won’t change his mind.
It is the same with Islam, you can cross your fingers, eyes, toes, legs and hope to die all you want but Islam is not going to moderate. There is a spiritual appeal, unknown to base beings aka atheists, that draws a certain type of person to Islam and that type of person seeks the rigours of the religion not the appearances of the religion. If they wanted superficiality they would have been educated atheists long time ago.
They are seeking something profound in their lives to which in fact they can dedicate their lives. That seeking the profound is what is driving what we refer to as the Islamofascits. We look on the outside and see a bunch of nutbars that seem to be lacking the brains God gave a goose but that is not the case. In fact many are highly educated highly skilled people who have discovered that there is more to life than getting up each morning and going to work. They know that there is more to life than the clothes on their back and the food in their belly. They know that there is more to life than their latest or next scronk . They are trying to develop their spirituality by following an ancient teaching that has stood them and their society in good stead. In fact they would say that if there is any ill in their society it is because that society is not following that ancient teaching close enough.
As a Christian I would say that their desire is right but the teaching they are following is wrong. However I will never say that they must modify their belief to suit my desires. I need to show them a better way to achieve the same spiritual end.
Well said Joe.
This topic has been hijacked by the “Israel thing”.
SDA is a great blog, but there are times a moderator would have been helpful.
Trying, again, to turn to the issue at hand… let’s deal with the “muslims more successful than Canadians” issue.
Define more successful. Yes, there are a lot of Muslim doctors. Where are they from?
1) Iran, which despite the problems with the Shah, was almost part of the Western world prior the the Islamic revolution. They are refugees who represented the best and brightest of that land, but have abandoned it. They are not a threat to our future.
2) The gulf states. They come here to learn medicine and are supposed to go back, but a number have stayed. They are the best and the brightest of those countries, sent here for that reason. They are usually the most worldly in their student group.
3) A significant number of physicians from India and Pakistan came a number of years ago who also were highly educated and have done well here.
If these were typical of the Muslims coming Canada routinely these days, there would be no concern. The problem is that they are not. A more typical entrant is from Somalia, relatively uneducated or not at all educated, entering as a refugee, barely english speaking, and incapable of integrating quickly or successfully. THey head straight for their local mosque/community, and have their head filled with contempt for Canada and Western ideas.
I think that’s the root of the problem.
Lori,
I think you killed the debate. You’re right, it is off topic.
Moderates are correctly called backsliders or apostates by devout muslims. The fact of the matter is that most who call themselves Christian are not devout either.
Oddly enough, I’ve met several people from Iran who call themselves Persian. A complete break from the conquering ideological virus? I’d like to think so.
“Show me a 15 year old white girl and a 15 year old Muslim girl and the Muslim girl will make more money, have more children, have a better marriage and a better family, have better manners and attitude, and overall live a better and more productive life than the typical 15 year old white Canadian girl. Same goes for boys too.” by Andrew
Bull Crap!!!
Many Irans harbor a deep resentment towards Islam, which they regard as a primitive ideology that conquered their more advanced society (Persia) by force over a thousand years ago.
Apollyon …. Great to meet you!
OMMAG, it is my pleasure. Also apologies for contributing to the threadjack. The blog I frequent we occasionally threadjack on the very first post, most of us are decent enough to wait till the second post.
Irwin daisy – the Jewish settlers brought European technology, agricultural and industrial tactics and political mode – to an area that was being economically and socially run within a non-industrial, peasant agriculture.
It has nothing to do with ‘hereditary’ intellect, but with the knowledge base of Europe that was brought to Israel, by the Jewish settlers. Kindly remember that the ME was NOT operating in a modern industrial mode – but in a mode that Europe, with its rich arable lands, had long moved out of.
No, joe, the reason that the Arab States need to modernize, is because their political structure, which is tribalism, is the root cause of Islamic fascism. Why is it the cause? Because political systems, economic systems, etc, are almost ‘organically tied’ to their demographics or population size. And that is tied to their economy.
When your population reaches a certain size – and it can only do that because of your economic capacity to support that size, your political system must ‘work with’ that population size.
So, after WWII, with the rise of the oil economy- and remember, this oil production was achieved by western science and technology, but, it enabled a certain ‘redistribution’ of income to the population. The ME populations rose exponentially afterwards – and became urban rather than rural. This requires, and I mean that word, a different mode of sociopolitical organization.
The Islamic belief system may have lasted for 1400 years – but its sociopolitical rules are no longer viable. They are dysfunctional in a modern urban and industrial society. Those rules reject reason, reject individualism, reject all the characteristics of a middle class.
And the industrial economy requires a middle class – a class of people who are flexible in their ability to relocate, who can move from job to job, who sell their labour and their thoughts. etc..
The old tribal islamic society had no middle class, but, an industrial economy requires one. So- the old ideology HAS to change.
I agree with you, joe, that the Islamic fascist is searching for a deep ‘connection’; that’s the basis for all utopian ideologies – and that includes fascism as well as communism. But, Islamic fascism has developed because the Islamic ME nations and their tribal political mode, rejected enabling the people to feel connected and empowered in the devt of their own country.
Lori – yes, Iranians do have a robust scientific community. They are, by the way, not Arabs but Persians. And that is making for an interesting scenario in the ME – because Iran has imperialist ambitions in the ME – and the Arab States most certainly don’t want a Persian state to take over that area.
One of the brightest minds in the area of complexity, who lives in the USA now, is a Persian, ie, from Iran – the originator of ‘fuzzy logic’ – which is now a famous concept in complexity theory. In contrast – the scientific work among the Arab nations is almost nil.
ET,
Against overwhelming facts and correct argument, you retain your certainty. I respect that. However, you’re starting to sound muslim.
“It has nothing to do with ‘hereditary’ intellect, but with the knowledge base of Europe that was brought to Israel, by the Jewish settlers. Kindly remember that the ME was NOT operating in a modern industrial mode – but in a mode that Europe, with its rich arable lands, had long moved out of.”
Agreed. It has nothing to do with intellect. It has everything to do with how intellect was intimidated by fear, while knowledge iwas pilfered and culture annihilated.
For the muslim mind, there is no truth or invention outside of the Quran. Either that or the knowledge was originally a muslim invention, or more likely a lie sent from satan. Check the presiding cleric’s statements regarding the destruction of the library at Alexandria.
Prior to the ME being conquered by a permanently frozen and patently conterfiet belief that became an ideology and holy writ, it was a veritable microwave for fully baked ideas. Many great cultures that we owe much of our knowledge to thrived there. Including the original 12 tribes of Israel.
The knowledge was brought back and the land functioned again, despite islam..
Rather than, “conterfiet belief”, I shoud say a murderously narcistic conterfiet belief. Mohammad = Allah.
A fanatical muslim spews hate,wants to take over the world and is ready and willing to kill for his beliefs. A moderate muslim sits back and says”that wasn’t me”. It is like living with Pickton,knowing something very wrong is going down,but because your hands are not bloody,it should not reflect on your character. That is bullshit.
Mississauga Matt said:
Somewhere along the way I read that the Pals, on a per capita basis, have received more funds than did western Europeans under the Marshall Plan.
Heh, I read that only recently myself. It makes further minced meat of ET’s “compensation” fantasy. In fact I’ve come to the conclusion that UN “terror welfare” and western guilt-tinged jizya has allowed this issue to fester decades past when it should have been resolved. Put another way: with all the jizya, the incentive structure favours the continuing jihad. And it IS jihad. JIHAD.
Shamrock: I completely agree with your comment on the usually most excellent ET being wilfully blind on this subject and I too find it disturbing. ET is a good measure of the sheer virtuosity of Arab-Nazi propaganda.
And I totally disagree that this conversation is “off topic”. It isn’t. Israel is not the cause of Muslim outrage: it is a symptom. A symptom of Islamic Jew-hatred that is foundational to Islam buttressed by massive failure in the Islamic world — failure the adolescent Arab populace can’t own.
Wafa Sultan says this without discussing Israel specifically. But it’s not off topic — at all.
Oh, and what exactly is Ahmadinejad’s issue with Israel anyway? They’re not even Arabs. What exactly is their grievance? Rhetorical question. Grievance schmievance!
ET: Despite the rhetoric, you do NOT in actuality support Israel’s right to exist. You seem to favour the “right of return” (even for following generations) which would destroy Israel, and you favour a two-state solution, which they pretend to want for Western ears, but don’t. They wan’t, as explained many times before, the annihilation of Israel and Jews. They want a judenrein Middle East. Period.
ET: How do I know this? THEY TELL US over and over and over again.
Off the off topic: one thing I find bewildering with the Muslims is how they have migrated to the West in the 10s of millions but can’t abide 5 million Jews living in the their midst.
Ah, yes: migration = welfare = jizya. Done.
me no dhimmi – I think you’ll have to accept what I say about my own beliefs, rather than you defining what you think my beliefs are.
I’ve always maintained that Israel has the right to exist. I don’t accept as valid reasons for this right any notion of ‘First Footprint’, or all of the other reasons I’ve outlined and rejected (Might, God, Name etc). After all, each of them invalidates the situation in other nations elsewhere in the world. Israel exists; it was set up as a political entity by the UN. Period.
I also maintain that one cannot even for a second pretend that the land was uninhabited, was uncultivated, was not legally owned by individuals – and that these people who lost their property, ought to be compensated, at a viable market value. No argument made here or elsewhere has shown me that this is an incorrect view. AND, that they ought to be able to develop their own state in the lands set aside by that same UN for them. And that doesn’t mean the Oslo Accord with its municipal governance.
The monies sent for the maintenance of the Palestinian refugees is not compensation for these lost lands but is maintenance of the by now millions of refugees; it doesn’t get to them as individuals, it doesn’t permit them to set up new homes and businesses elsewhere (and we all know that a great deal of it is taken within Arafat and Fatah’s corruption).
I also absolutely maintain that Islamic fascism would have emerged EVEN IF ISRAEL NEVER EXISTED. The existence of Israel is a current smokescreen for Islamic fascism. The real reason for that fascism – and I’ve written about it numerous times, is the dysfunctional sociopolitical structure of the ME arab states. You and others may incorrectly call this a marxist analysis (what nonsense); it has nothing to do with marxism.
It is an analysis that states that the political system of the ME after WWII became totally alienated from the requirements of the changing economic system and population base. You cannot have a tribal political system in a population in the multimillions and in an industrial economy. It won’t work; it’s disastrous. I’ve taught this theory for over 20 years – and I know the ‘synchronic structural fit’ of societies. You can’t mix up systems.
But the Islamic Arab world maintained this 7th tribal infrastructure after WWII moved their economy into industrialism; after the population base exploded; after the switch from rural to urban. It’s been a disaster – and that isolation of the massive population from political, economic and social power – led to the rise of a utopian ideology – Islamic fascism.
Israel’s existence had nothing to do with this fascism; it would have happened anyway – because of that dysfunctional structure. BUT – the tribal powers, who are trying to prevent the rise of a middle class (and resultant democracy) are using Israel as a ‘front’ to battle their own people, to keep their own people focused not on their own lack of power in their own country – but on the Evil West and Evil Israel. It is vital that Islamic fascism be reduced to a peripheral segment by enabling a robust and democratic middle class to develop in the ME. [Utopian ideologies always exist; the trick is to marginalize them].
Islamic fascism’s use of Israel as a cover is rather similar to the Liberal use of anti-Americanism in Canada. It diverts the issues from bad Liberal govt..Again, the Arab States consider the Palestinians the ‘lowest of the low’; they don’t give a damn about them; they are using them to enable the Is-Pal. situation as a front to maintain their own tribal dictatorships. That includes Iran’s pathological president.
My views have nothing to do with ‘arab-nazi’ propaganda, but with those basic issues I’ve outlined above. The land wasn’t empty; the homes and farms were legally owned; and – compensation ought to be paid. Period.
The fact that the Arab states are disinterested in Palestine, that Arafat most certainly didn’t want a Palestinian state (which would turf him from power) aren’t relevant to my simple base points.
The fact that Israel wants a majority Jewish population – it’s none of my business. However, I find the settlements an aberration and violation of any stated desire for peace. And I know perfectly well, that a lot of settlers treat the Palestinians as ‘animals’ and violate their lands and farms. I also know that a lot of Israeli would like the situation resolved – and a two-state solution developed.
Those are my points. They aren’t trivial, they aren’t anti-semitic; they aren’t uninformed. And I stand by them.
In response to an earlier posting by ET
“The ME populations rose exponentially afterwards -and became urban rather than rural. This requires, and I mean that word, a different mode of sociopolitical organization.”
So because a Muslim moves from the country to the city he will abandon his faith? Did anyone tell bin Laden that? How about those two doctors in Scotland? Were they urban or rural raised? How about the ones who flew the aircraft on 9/11.
“The old tribal Islamic society had no middle class, but, an industrial economy requires one. So- the old ideology HAS to change”.
Your thought is in error if in fact the ME doesn’t want an industrial society. After all an industrial society is NOT the be all end all just as a middle class is not something to be sought after for its own sake. What we see now as ‘middle class’ here in the west is simply a passing phase of a fast fading, baseless, narcissistic culture that we happen to live in and so we think it is best.
“But, Islamic fascism has developed because the Islamic ME nations and their tribal political mode, rejected enabling the people to feel connected and empowered in the devt of their own country.”
Wrong again. The Islamofascist is not some disempowered discarded buttwipe cast aside by an uncaring society. Most in fact are rich, well educated and have the ears of kings and presidents. You and I should be so connected.
What I see coming from you are the thoughts a urban, white middle class atheist academic who thinks that given the right set of circumstances everyone will think just as you do. Kind of reminds me of the old joke about the guy who spoke English loudly and slowly so the native American could understand him.
You see I was raised a non-Christian in an upper middle class home with both parents. I graduated top of my class and went on to university studying to be an engineer and was very proud of my atheism.
I married a wonderful woman and soon we began having children. One day I woke up and realized that if this was all there was to life I wasn’t interested. I didn’t know where to go but I knew I must go. I drove for a time and then even more distraught I began to walk across the bald prairie. Despairing even farther I found a small white rock protruding from the native grasses and kneeling beside it I encountered someone I didn’t know existed. I encountered Jesus Christ.
I found a Church that actually believed in Jesus and began a frantic study of all I could find about Christianity. One Sunday several years later as I sat in the pew listening to the old preacher’s sermon I heard my name being called. The old pastor was calling me to minister. I gave up my chosen profession and began to preach to the down and out in a small Canadian urban centre. Later I moved on and to this date have worked planting four Churches in Western Canada. I’m relating this to you not to puff myself up but rather to point out to you that like Christianity Islam is not some culturally dependant philosophy Like me who follows Christianity those who fervently follow Islam are not a bunch of rural rubes.
However one thing I have noticed in the life God has led me through is that society and societal norms are not defining in and of themselves. They are in constant flux My great grandparents homesteaded in Alberta before Alberta existed as a province and were deeply religious. They took their pacifist Christianity from Germany to Russia to Romania to Turkey to the US and finally to Canada planting churches as they went. Yet I, separated from them by culture, education, and even being an urbanite realize that abiding faith such as they had and now I have transcends circumstances and societies. The core beliefs of an abiding faith are not altered by economics or societal norms. I can read authors dead for nearly two millennia and can viscerally understand the faith they express in their writing. The writings of St Paul and St Augustine are not the mental meanderings of a demented man they are as real and as true today as they were when they were first quilled. Their thoughts and experiences are as fresh to me as if we were sitting down to lunch together discussing today’s weather. Their culture is far different from mine and their life experiences are so completely different yet we share a commonality that is nigh on impossible to explain.
I suspect the same is true for the Islamist that seeks the overthrow of our western culture. He has a connection to Islam that economics and culture can not shake. He knows that for 1400 years Islam has been trying to overtake the world and if he plays only a bit part in the advancement of that cause then he will be satisfied that indeed he has done the will of Allah. That, at the core is what this conflict is all about. Its not economics. Its not culture. Its not a lack of middle class or education or ….
It’s the fact that grown, intelligent, educated men have decided to shun the trappings of a materialistic world in order to gain in the spiritual realm. Most Muslims are not like these men. They go through life fully immersed in the local culture. They don’t read the Qur’an they don’t ever go to mosque on a regular basis. Their relationship to Islam is kind of like having a team to cheer for. They may not follow the tenets of the faith with great gusto but when a super Muslim like bin Laden strikes fear in the infidel’s heart they are the first in line to boast of the faith they do not follow.
Unfortunately for the secular west there is no real defence against militant Islam. Having relegated all religion to the scrap heap the western intellectuals have left themselves defenceless in the face of a virulent plague of death and destruction. The old rubes keep being trotted out, poverty, social injustice, economic disparity etc etc etc and the Islamist smiles to himself knowing that a culture that will not defend eternal norms in itself will never stand against a determined enemy. The wholesale adoption of sexual immorality(adultery, divorce, homosexuality), theft ( redistribution of wealth), murder (abortion) all trumpeted by our western elites as great breakthroughs in societal evolution are all the enticements an Islamist needs to realize the culture that espouses them will fall because it lacks the moral integrity to stand against a determined foe.
My apologies to all for taking so much space.
God Bless
wow, you guys are still at it – yay
Shabbat Shalom to you Apollyon
ET, what don’t you get about the Arabs refused to negotiate. They said NO to the UN partition plan of 1947. They gave the three famous NOs after the 6 day war. They could be celebrating the 60th anniversary of their statehood but they said NO.
This is not OT to this thread. If the discussion is how will Islam moderate or can Islam moderate, then I maintain that Islam must come to terms with the fact that it reworked the Bible and then said that the Jews lied in their book. Islam must recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel to become moderate – you can tell if a Muslim is moderate by what he/she thinks about Israel.
Now this is OT
Historical materialism as an explanatory system has been expanded and refined by thousands of academic studies since Marx’s death.The fundamental proposition of historical materialism can be summed up in a sentence: “it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence that determines their consciousness.”
It is not “having their land stolen”/ie. social existence that determines their consciousness, it is their consciensness/ie. Koran/Islam that determines their existence (the Joos are evil)