Former gang member turned Marine and recipient of the Navy Cross expresses his thoughts after after returning from Iraq:
Liberals often like to say that “violence is senseless.”
That’s wrong.
Violence isn’t senseless. Senseless violence is senseless. And I should know. Before being awarded the Navy Cross and having the privilege of becoming a Marine, I was a gang member. Sometimes it takes having used violence for both evil as well as good to know that there’s a profound moral difference between the two.
Read the whole thing, but especially note this:
But if there was one lesson I learned from my past it is that there is a profound moral difference between using violence to destroy lives and using violence to save lives. Terrorists do the former; soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines do the latter.
Indeed they do. At least those on our side do.
Well Said.
The Marine is wrong about the left. They do support the people who do violence for thier own cause, http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=003262
what would Jack Layton say?
Ive noticed sir talksalot has been rather silent since the dippers have been asked to apologize. the silence is deafening . he hasnt been that quiet since he had to give up the subsidized housing. or has the MSM given up on Taliban Jack as well as Borat Dion?
with Stephen boycotting the press, looks like the talking heads will only be talking with each other
Bravo Marine.
Si vis pacem, para bellum………If you want peace prepare for war.
“War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ”
– John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
What the left say about violence depends very much on whether that violence is perpetrated by their heroes or those that they despise.
The violence that many of them advocate is the kind that can be performed by someone else on their behalf or some fantasy retribution they wishfully daydream about having the guts to administer.
That was intense and right to the point.
Leftists also forget about Saddam’s multi-day “food taster” expense…
That Marine, and John Stuart Mill – both have it exactly right. We owe a profound debt to all who think and act like them.
Exactly ET
Apollyon…
Perfect. Thank you.
Joe B, its my absolute pleasure. I recently found this blog and have really enjoyed reading all the comments, except those of Johnny Miller whose posts I would equate with the scribblings of a chimp that just polished off a bottle of Jack Daniels. In other words he sounds like a liberal arts professor.
If I may leave you with a few more fine quotes……..
“I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson
“A nation can survive its fools and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly against the city. But the traitor moves among those within the gates freely, his sly whispers rustling through all alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears no traitor; he speaks in the accents familiar to his victim, and he wears their face and their garments and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation; he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared. The traitor is the plague.”
– Marcus Tullius Cicero
Bravo, Apollyon!
Not to throw cold water on this party, but I’d take his claims with a grain of salt. It’s certainly possible for a single marine to have witnessed all those atrocities, and more. It would be, however, be quite unusual, and something about his narrative just doesn’t ring true. I’m not saying he’s a liar….I’m just paranoid about accepting such claims at face value, ESPECIALLY after seeing so many clowns (such as Jesse MacBeth) who like to massively embellish their stories.
Hey Alex, you need to watch that kind of loose talk. Saying stuff like that about Jesse MacBeth could get you censured by the US Senate!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298999,00.html
But if there was one lesson I learned from my past it is that there is a profound moral difference between using violence to destroy lives and using violence to save lives. Terrorists do the former; soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines do the latter.
==
guess he forgot “military contractor” in that list.
He also forgot police officers, bodyguards, and security personnel of all sorts. So what? He was talking specifically about the military so there was no reason for him to list all the different occupations where force is used to save lives.
Right on the money. The thing to remember is that the people who are at fault are those who continue to fight against the now legal governments of Afghanistan and Iraq. They care much less for the wellbeing of people than their own twisted ideology.The same goes for those who would leave before the job is done. The peacniks and their friends would trade the lives of Afghani and Iraqi citizens for their own narrow world view. It would be great if we could all just join hands and sing a campfire song and hug but it just isn’t realistic.
The worst offenders to me are those who only oppose the war for political gain. The Liberals and NDP in Canada and the Democrats in the US would willingly trade the lives of Iraqis and Afghanis for their own gain. Since this is the case, do you think they would hesitate before trading your life?
Yes, bravo Apollyon, and I second lookout’s welcome aboard! Good stuff indeed!
And bravo to the gangster turned Marine … BUT … I’m vaguely with Alex here: something doesn’t ring true with me too. But if untrue, it’s true untruth. Propaganda is an essential tool in war but let’s face it the US has been abysmal at it probably because it relies too much on the conviction that it is doing the right thing and that that right thing is manifest. Israel too! Abysmal. Just look at how slack they were in running down the Al-Durah propaganda coup which has done such enormous damage to Israel’s just cause and turned so many in the West against it.
The left has become quite fond of using the statement “support the troops” but include a caveat that you don’t have to support the mission to do so.
That so?
Well lets apply some logic shall we.
There’s a certain plant in London Ontario that manufactures a product used exclusively for military use. This product is presently on deployment not only in Afghanistan but also most notibly in Iraq. How about that a CAW unionized workforce in Canada, supporting not only the troops but also the mission in Iraq.
Of course if any of those employees (or the people that claim to represent them) want to contend that they still don’t support the mission, may I ask then wouldn’t that make them war profiteers?
Me No Dhimmi, thank you for the welcome. I will say that I do not see anything in the article that is farfetched nor uncommon. The mass graves needed to be protected, a man with his tongue cut out is unfortunately hardly shocking in Iraq where islamists decapitate and maim their victims. Pictures of human experiments is par for the course for butchers like Saddamy and his two dogs for sons, Uday and Qusay. I have heard far more remarkable stories, validated by a credible journalists, that Al Qaeda was intimidating residents of a particular “tribe” to cooperate and in one of their barbaric acts they roasted a child like a pig. It is almost hard for the mind to comprehend such inhumanity but such is the state of affairs with these filthy primitive7th century Mohammedan throat cutters. They must be destroyed.
alex, is the moral standard of “saving lives” best evaluated on the basis of the role someone plays in this conflict or the actions that person performs? the first sentence quoted suggests that actions are the key criteria whereas the second suggests that roles are. the two are not necessarily identical.
War is like surgery,never pleasant,but quite often necessary.
Reading the piece by M. Martinez, the image that kept flashing through my mind was that of dear old Farley Mowat with his bullshit opus, “And No Birds Sang”. There are ex-military men who don’t like to talk about their experiences, and there are those who,like Mowat, and (I fear), Martinez who appropriate every story they ever heard and rewrite it with themselves as central to the tale.
Moreover, the story of the photo album of deformed children smokes a little too much like the tale of the preemies dumped out of their incubators in the first Gulf War. Mengeles in Saddam’s regime? Why? Never heard of such a thing prior to reading Marinez’s piece.
Zog, Saddam was the guy with the death-by-industrial-shredder thing and the history of starring in gay porn. Oh, and the jail for children.
You think his henchmen would be better behaved than he was? I’m thinking not, myself.
Moreover, the story of the photo album of deformed children smokes a little too much like the tale of the preemies dumped out of their incubators in the first Gulf War.
Zog, the stories about the incubators are true. Were you aware that when American troops eneterd Iraq they found a prison [probably several cells] filled with children of dissidents? Martinez may have embelished some of his claims, I don’t know, but what I do know is that his stories are consistant with known atrocities in Iraq.
Phantom, I just noticed you pointed out the prison with children as well. There was a segment here in the US about how the Iraqi Olympic team under Saddamy would be brutally tortured if they didn’t perform well. After the overthrow members of Iraq’s Olympic team took US soldiers to the torture chamber and it was littered with medieval devices for inflicting pain. Truly barbaric; I bet albatross would look good in the Iron Maiden.
We don’t properly go to war for any of the 5 reasons cited by the brave gangster turned marine. We properly go to war out of self interest and unapologetically so. We cannot attend to all the cruelty in the world (Darfur, Zimbabwe).
Well, with respect Apollyon, we really really don’t know what’s true in those stories. Much of it could just be folklore. “I have a friend who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew another guy and this is what he saw!”
The story of the child roasted like a pig and delivered to the parents by Al Queda, never rang true either.
Remember that old urban legend about the baby sitter who got drunk and mistakenly cooked the baby in the microwave. I gather that never happened.
Infortunately this is tin-eared propaganda. It won’t turn the left.
In the 30’s the Left dropped what they were doing and went to fight for their beliefs (Spanish civil war) I suspect most of those people will despise the “new left” as parasites.
Apollyon, I doubt anything could make Alby look good. Or think, either.
MND, nothing will turn the Left. That’s the thing that we as conservatives need to get down to our bones. We are swayed by facts and logical argument. They are not. They seek power for its own sake and nothing will deter them. If they get power they will use it to get more.
Look at the freak show the Democrats are making of the US government this week, trying to smear Rush Limbaugh, of all people, for not “supporting the troops”, the phony soldiers uproar. There’s not a shred of truth in any of it, and anyone can discover this for themselves since Limbaugh posted ALL of it on his web site.
Since when does the Left care a damn if somebody slags the Army? Doesn’t matter! They are going for it, sans truth, purely to throw some red meat to morons like Joebaloni and Alby39.
The joke is it will work. Alby and Joey will eat it up and love it to death, every illogical, untrue, contradictory little bit of it. They are SUCKERS. Useful IDIOTS who can be bought with a little pandering to their bigotry. Just give ’em someone to hate and turn ’em loose, baby. Mind your fingers on the cage door, eh?
You can’t work with people like that. You have to DEFEAT them in elections, every single friggin’ time.
Me No Dhimmi, your point is well taken. As a Jew born in Russia I can tell you countless stories of nazi barbarism [both my grandfathers were in the Red Army and survived to tell their stories- I also had family in Germany] and the utter inhumanity that went on in concentration camps. What happened in Iraq is mild in comparison. I must admit I’m not familiar with the microwave story.
Not long ago two of our soldiers in Iraq were taken hostage and brutally tortured and killed. They were unrecognizable; eyes were gouged out, organs were cut out, genitals were cut off, etc. Lets not forget that Uday had a lion’s den for his victims and the Saddamy’s industrial plastic shredder is well known. These are the Islamic animals we’re up against; I would put nothing past them.
If I could leave you with an article about Eisenhower after he entered a concentration camp…….
“When General Eisenhower learned about [Buchenwald], he immediately arranged to meet Generals Bradley and Patton at Ohrdruf on the morning of April 12th. By that time, Buchenwald itself had been captured. Consequently, Ike decided to extend the group’s visit to include a tour of the Buchenwald extermination camp the next day. Eisenhower also ordered every American soldier in the area who was not on the front lines to visit Ohrdruf and Buchenwald.
He wanted them to see for themselves what they were fighting against.
During the camp inspections with his top commanders Eisenhower said that the atrocities were “beyond the American mind to comprehend.”
He ordered that every citizen of the town of Gotha personally tour the camp and, after having done so, the mayor and his wife went home and hanged themselves. Later on Ike wrote to Mamie, “I never dreamed that such cruelty, bestiality, and savagery could really exist in this world.” He cabled General Marshall to suggest that he come to Germany and see these camps for himself. He encouraged Marshall to bring Congressmen and journalists with him. It would be many months before the world would know the full scope of the Holocaust — many months before they knew that the Nazi murder apparatus that was being discovered at Buchenwald and dozens of other death camps had slaughtered millions of innocent people.
General Eisenhower understood that many people would be unable to comprehend the full scope of this horror. He also understood that any human deeds that were so utterly evil might eventually be challenged or even denied as being literally unbelievable. For these reasons he ordered that all the civilian news media and military combat camera units be required to visit the camps and record their observations in print, pictures and film. As he explained to General Marshall, “I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to ‘propaganda.’”
His prediction proved correct. When some groups, even today, attempt to deny that the Holocaust ever happened they are must confront the massive official record, including both written evidence and thousands of pictures, that Eisenhower ordered to be assembled when he saw what the Nazis had done.”
The Phantom:
Well, there’s nothing phantasmagorical in that post, as in, I agree 100%. Co-incindentally, I have an unanswered e-mail out there now to an old friend who despises Limbaugh — asking him in a kinda Socratic way if he has formed an opinion yet on the Rush controversy. I was curious to know if it was negative, and if so, how he got there. This smear is one of the very best examples I’ve encountered yet of THE BIG LIE. And yes, I heard and read the interview in which it is crystal clear he was talking about a single phony soldier — Macbeth — who has proven to be so. It is especially galling considering Limbaugh’s nearly rabid support of the US military over this whole career.
AND, I no longer subscribe to the notion that the NEXT BIG ONE (not lie but hit) will wake the left. In fact I believe it will intensify their insanity; the meme will be, “ya see, blow-back for our hitting back.”
Media Matters / Clintons, bubba and the cackle/ Soros. Very disturbing.
You’re absolutely right. They have to beaten over and over again.
The first truth of American foreign policy is that it is formulated to maximise corporate profits and state power. The second truth is that it is perennially sold to the public as a mission to spread freedom, democracy and human rights. The third truth is that the first two truths apply regardless of whether the Republicans or Democrats hold power.
Would anyone like to disagree with this? Keeping ad hominem arguments to a mimnimum?
Apollyn, I have a couple more Jefferson quotes for you…
“When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.”
“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
ps. in the previous thread I was disgussing on. It has ceased to accept further comments.
“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
The irony of a letist putting up an anti-socialist quote is just too rich.
The first truth of American foreign policy is that it is formulated to maximise corporate profits and state power. The second truth is that it is perennially sold to the public as a mission to spread freedom, democracy and human rights. The third truth is that the first two truths apply regardless of whether the Republicans or Democrats hold power.
Johnny, this may come as a surprise to you but all nations do what’s in their best interest.
As far as Americans fighting for freedom, the Germans and Japanese can attest to it. Americans and the allies destroyed the Third Reich and imperialist Japanese, rebuilt their nations into prospering democracies and all we asked for in return was a lot of land to bury our dead soldiers. Of course you probably feeeeel Americans were guilty of grotesque human rights violations while the nazis were just misunderstood.
Apollyn
The quote you mention has nothing to do with anti-socialist propaganda. It is to do with government and elite greed contrasted with the needs of the majority and the lies governments propagate to execute their policies uncontested.
I agree with your statement that all nations practice self interest which is certainly why my criticism is not just directed at the US gov.
I applaud US actions in WWII. A great victory for democracy. Our western views of our own goverments good will are indeed based on our actions in WWII. However US policy has not been so honourable since then. To anybody reading history since, it is clear that the US and EU govs care not for democracy around the world but instead pliant states willing to add to western wealth with complete disregard for the people they govern. This is self evident.
The choice we must make as individuals is do we hold our own wealth to be more important than the wealth of others. Is increasing our wealth (or atleast the wealth of the riches amongst us)more important to us than the lives of the impoverished and disinherited in the world.
I believe that the lives of an American or a Brit is no more precious than that of an Iraqi or Kenyan. I believe in equality not just between western nations but all nations no matter what religion or colour it is made up of. These opinions are what the American consitution is based on except with an international twist.
If you disagree with this statement we will never agree. Do you agree?
johnny miller, the problem with your position is that you have taken a personal stance that sees the causality of, eg, the Iraq War, as based on ‘corporate greed’. That’s your basic axiom and I believe that it’s completely invalid and without any evidence. It’s simply based in your personal bias.
My view of the Iraq War, is that it is justified and necessary, to move the ME out of a dysfunctional tribalism – which is the root cause of Islamic fascism. Islamic fascism is most certainly a threat to all democracies all over the world.
I’ve outlined the nature of both political tribalism and Islamic fascism many times on this blog and won’t repeat their description.
Your comments about ‘do we care more for our own wealth..etc.. are specious and empty platitudes. We’d better care for our own wealth, to ensure that we don’t put the responsibility for our well-being on to some other person or state.
As for the non-wealth of other peoples, a lot of that has to do with their own govts; eg, Saddam Hussein’s tribal control of oil; eg, Zimbabwe; eg, the corruption of political leaders and businesses in most of the African and Latin American states. Do you suggest that we in the west should send money to these states, money that disappears into palaces of their corrupt leaders? Do you think that money will solve the problems of their corrupt governments? Get real.
“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
Johnny, that quote is indeed anti-socialist and couldn’t be more clear. The quote warns Americans from allowing the Federal Govt to usurp power under the guise of “taking care of them [citizenry]” aka socialized healthcare, unfettered welfare, expansion of the Fed govt, etc.
I applaud US actions in WWII. A great victory for democracy. Our western views of our own goverments good will are indeed based on our actions in WWII. However US policy has not been so honourable since then. To anybody reading history since, it is clear that the US and EU govs care not for democracy around the world but instead pliant states willing to add to western wealth with complete disregard for the people they govern. This is self evident.
I don’t see this as self evident at all. Give me something more specific to back up your assertion.
The choice we must make as individuals is do we hold our own wealth to be more important than the wealth of others. Is increasing our wealth (or atleast the wealth of the riches amongst us)more important to us than the lives of the impoverished and disinherited in the world.
I’m not a Marxist, I don’t believe in stealing from the rich and giving the poor a blank check. “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.”
I believe that the lives of an American or a Brit is no more precious than that of an Iraqi or Kenyan. I believe in equality not just between western nations but all nations no matter what religion or colour it is made up of. These opinions are what the American consitution is based on except with an international twist.
In principle of course I agree. But make no mistake, western civilization and culture is far superior than many others that litter the globe.
It’s interesting how your disgust of socialism and my disgust of government tyranny make us see the quote in very different ways. Regardless…
Guatemala, Nicuagura, Iran, Congo, Chile. Off top of my head these are just the proven coups led by the US to overthrow democratically elected govs. They’ve also tried to overthrow Chavez. What did all these countries have in common? They were planning to implement nationalisation projects which would cut off US access to wealth. The US prop up plenty of dictatorships, provided they play by US neoliberal economic policy, Saudi, Egypt, a number of Istans.
These economics are crucial. No country can develop fairly for all without nationalising industries to begin with or heavy subsidising. Indeed the US and UK subsidise their industries the most (agriculture etc). Except we force other govs to open their markets for us to exploit all in the name of ‘free trade.’ This stifles new industry within the country and skims the greatest profit away, stopping development.
Therefore any nation which decides to close it’s borders in order use it’s own wealth for the benefit of it’s own people becomes an enemy of the US. See Cuba, Venezuala, Iran… What do these countries have in common… nationalised industry, esp oil.
You often use quotes to make your arguments seem more valid but the quote you use is completely irrelevent. We are not giving them fish or teaching them to fish, even in a metaphorical sense. We are simply stealing their fish, occasionally we drop one when we leave
Business is solely about profit. Profit has no consciounce. Economics is central to gov policy
I don’t believe in Marxism either, but it’s not about giving a blank cheques. Exageration is as bad as lieing. I believe in responsible capitalsim and that means stronger, more democratic (not ruled by US like World Bank and IMF) international institutions and the right of all nations to hold their own economic policies un threatened by US/EU greed.
“western civilization and culture is far superior than many others that litter the globe”
Do you know who you sound like?
ET: Islamic fascism? What’s your definition of Islamic fascism.
p.s. I hope you know that the the US does not want democracy in Iraq but instead a pliant gov. What would happen if Iraq truly was democractic? And I mean truly democractic as in a popular gov voted in by the majority. For a start it would use it’s own oil money for the benefit of it’s own people and second it would sidle up to it’s neighbours, not the US. What would be the point of invasion?
Regardless of Islamic fascism, whatever that is, this is unjustice and I will look to what we are doing wrong before I point the finger at someone else.
johnny miller – My definition of Islamic fascism is – the basic definition of fascism, run within an Islamic essentialism. As I’m sure you know, fascism is a utopian ideology that defines a state as having an ‘essentialist’ or inherent Form.
Fascism posits this utopian form, which describes the identity of the Pure Society as ‘real’ and declares that the population must abide by its formal properties. In some cases the nature of the form is ethnic identity, ‘race’; in the Islamic case, it is religious. The point is, the fascist declares that ‘at some time in the past’, this pure identity was realized on earth, and we must now ‘move back’ to this pure identity. Or else.
Communism is also utopian, but its Pure Form is arrived at in an historic or linear sense; you move towards it, sloughing off the evil of your nature in the previous eras.
Both utopian ideologies are homogeneous, enforced by authority, reject reason and democracy, reject dissent, reject diversity – and are functionally maintainable only by extreme totalitarian authority.
I know that the US DOES want democracy in Iraq. It isn’t interested in a ‘pliant government’ but in a govt that can empower all the Iraqi people to feel functional in their own economic, social and political governance – powers that were denied to them before under Hussein – and it is the lack of these powers that moves the ME population to Islamic fascism.
Iraq is already using its oil money to benefit its own people. I hope you are aware how the Iranian govt and the SA are assisting the insurgents to prevent a robust economy and democracy in Iraq.
Why should Iraq ‘sidle up to its neighbours’, ie, Iran – when Iran is funding and manning the insurgents? Hmmm?
I’m stunned that you don’t know what Islamic fascism is. Where have you been? It’s a basic term used by many researchers in defining what is going on in the ME. Yikes – unreal that you don’t know this..and yet…you do the usual leftist bash the USA – and haven’t a clue about the political and economic situation of the ME. Heh.
Actually, johnny miller, I’d appreciate your informing us what you mean by ‘the right of all nations to hold their own economic policies’. What on earth do you mean by that?
Since we live in a global economy, with the most massive populations in the least developed nations, what are you suggesting? That these people have a ‘right’ to, as in Zimbabwe, reject industrial agriculture and revert to peasant agriculture – which destroyed their capacity to feed themselves. AND – do they still have the right to expect the rest of the world (eg, the US) to feed them? Hmmm?
Does a nation have a right to reject supporting their own population, by, eg, funding their military rather than their people – and still expect the rest of the world to feed them? eg N. Korea.
Does Mexico have a right to reject developing an economic AND SOCIAL (schools, housing, medical care) infrastructure for its lowest class – and expect that the US taxpayer must provide all of this? Hmmm? And don’t go with the ignorant argument that the Mexicans are ‘taking jobs Americans won’t hold because the pay is low’.
Rubbish. They are taking jobs with low pay but as noncitizens, without paying any taxes. Therefore, their NET pay is higher because there are NO taxes. They send BILLIONS back to Mexico to support their relatives – who are not supported by the MExican taxpayer, but by the American taxpayer. Of course I know you will approve of this unfairness because your mode of thought is simple: Bash America.
The US has nothing to do with the World Bank. How about some criticism of the UN? Well? Why don’t you say a word against this monstrosity that supports totalitarianism, genocide and dictators? Well?
Naturally business is about profit. What else should it be about? And in order to make a profit, business has to provide functional and good services and goods. Or, the customers won’t buy. You seem to have missed this requirement on the part of business, johnny miller.
And economics is not only central to govt policy; it’s central to the well-being of a nation. Just think about Zimbabwe for a second if you don’t believe that.
It’s interesting how your disgust of socialism and my disgust of government tyranny make us see the quote in very different ways.
johnny miller: Listen carefully: socialism IS government tyranny and cannot be otherwise.
You remind me of Naomi Klein’s latest revelation: communism is fine — the only problem has been that it’s been “authoritarian communism”. As if there could be any other form. The old excuse, of course, used to be, “communism is fine, it’s just that we had the wrong people running it”. Except, there will always be the wrong people running it.
me no dhimmi – exactly. Communism, or ‘let’s all share everything equally’ is only operable in the most ‘primitive’ economies of hunting and gathering, maximum population about 30, with NO domestication of plants and animals, NO ownership of future-oriented food production (plants, animals, seeds, water, tools, technology) and no capacity to produce more than can be consumed in about 48 hours by that group.
Any population of larger size requires ownership and responsibilities of maintenance of the plants, land, animals, produce. Ownership and responsibilities requires hierarchical sets. Or, does everyone own one cow and who owns the three heifers it produces? The first population differentiations will be by gender and age. Then, by family – where the family or clan will own the animals and lands and look after and maintain them.
But never, ever, can there be a communist system for any society that domesticates and takes charge of its food production. Impossible.
Also, Ms Klein ignores basic human psychology. Ownership inserts an emotional bond of responsibility and care. Just consider how people fling their trash around on city streets, how renters treat their accomodation, how people destroy what isn’t theirs. That’s communist psychology.
ET: Indeed. A most cogent analysis. I sometimes opine to folks that collectivism is fine as long as it’s voluntary (Co-ops, say) and remind them of the natural fate of communes (remember those from the 60s). They don’t last, can’t last because we are wired for self-interest and cannot abide equal reward to people putting in less effort. Immutable human nature. But the left doesn’t get the immutability of human nature or get how every leftist acts solely out of self interest notwithstanding the accompanying rhetoric.
Your point about the trash: I presume you’re familiar with the term “tragedy of the commons”. Off the top of my head, I believe it originated in 18th century England when it was discovered that common areas for the public to graze their animals were inevitably denuded of all vegetation.
Guys, I really don’t know why you’re talking about communism. I certainly didn’t mention communism. I didn’t even mention socialism.
ET
I do know what Islamic fascism is just like i know what a fairy is. What states are you calling Islamic fascist states? If I was pushed to answer I would have to say Saudi. A friend of the US. And don’t even think about saying Iran. As I’ve already stipulated Iran is an enemy because it doesn’t do what the US tells it to so then you are told to call it fascist and hate it too.
Who do you think the insurgents are? The vast majority of Iraqis opinion that US troops are legitamate targets. It is fact that only around 6% of ‘insurgents’ are foreigners. That means that most insurgents are Iraqis who are attacking US/UK troops with the tacit support of the majority of the Iraqi people.
If Iraq invaded the US I would hope that you would defend your homeland against the invading forces and become an insurgent, I mean a freedom fighter yourself.
Also, only around 5% of Iraqis believe that the US are there to give them democracy. Iraqi’s are obviously just as intelligent as us. Look at US history, just think that, anything could happen in a democratic Iraq… why would the US risk that. more so, 65% of Iraqis and 90% of Iranians are Shities. Al sistani, the most powerful cleric in Iraq is shiite and was born in Iran. You can bet good relations with them.
You blame Iran and Saudi for getting involved in Iraq. Who has the most troops in Iraq? – America. And you blame them for being there?
You say the US does not run the world bank. The US pres nominates the head. Paul Wolfowitz, one of the leading constructors of present US policy just finished his turn. It’s basically a state department mascarading as independant.
Why don’t i criticise the UN? Because the UN is a democratic institution made up of all the nations in the world. You keep talking about fascism. No one breaks more UN rules than the US and Israel (and EU cowardly abstaining) This is undemocractic. This is fascism. This is imperialism. Why can’t you see this? Insulting the rest of the world as cowards, and despots and thugs is not only rascist in the extreme but blind. You are blinded by your own patriotism and your faith in the good will of your own government.
I’m sorry if I haven’t dealth with all your points.
I am British. My government is just as callous and self interested. It’s not about bashing America. It is about legitimate criticism of the US and UK goverments.It is our duty as citizens to do this.
Hitler was able to invade much of Europe because he told his people that they had to because they were surrounded by enemies who planned to destroy them. It always amazed me how the German people no more unintelligent, ill-educated or cruel as any other people in the world could believe him and march across Europe killing millions.
Don’t you see that you are being fed the same lies. Being told that all these enemies are out there just so you won’t complain when your government attacks another defenceless country in the name of freedom when all it wants is more wealth and power.
ET, it sounds like I will never change your mind and MND, maybe you to. But anybody else reading this has a choice to blindly march behind it’s goverment which hold the strings above the media. (If you think that the media is bias towards the left, you truly are beyond redemption, firstly the gov would never allow it) or to forget that you are a westerner, just for a second and look at the truth unclouded by allegiance.
You’re obsessesd with left and right in America. Facts are the same whether you’re on the left or the right. Please don’t let these pure value terms blind you from finding the truth.
As fun as this posting has been this really must be my last post. I will read how you respond. But good luck.
More than 150,000,000 dead in the 20th century because of communism. Lets give it a second chance, says the liberal idiot proudly standing on the bones of millions.
johnny miller – don’t tell me what to say or not say.
No, you obviously don’t understand Islamic fascism. Everything you say reveals that you don’t understand it.
It isn’t a state government; it’s a mode of thought and behaviour. It is the basis of Islamic terrorism. Read again my outline of Islamic fascism; it’s a mode of belief and behaviour that is focused on achieving a ‘pure’ Islamic state governance. There are no Islamic fascist state governments; Islamic fascism is the ‘modus operandus’ of the terrorists.
Rubbish- the insurgents are heavily funded, supplied and manned by Iran. I’m not and never was, talking about the numbers of foreign insurgents; I’m talking about the source of the funding, supply of arms and ideology; that comes from Iran.
The downthrow of Hussein has opened up the ‘rot’ of dysfunctional tribalism in Iraq (and I’ll bet that you don’t know a thing about political tribalism either)- That tribalism is what has led to Islamic fascism. Iran is pitting these tribes against each other, rather than enabling them to collaborate together into a democratic govt.
The insurgents are attacking IRAQI citizens! They are blowing up each other’s mosques, markets, homes. Get our of your ignorant hatred of the US and focus on REALITY. The fighting in Iraq is Muslim vs Muslim – tribe vs tribe. The insurgents are absolutely NOT freedom fighters! Where do you come up with such nonsense? Don’t you know what is going on there?
The fighting is between tribes, kept isolate and adversarial by Hussein, and kept adversarial now, by Iran and themselves. Shi’ites are not all identical, and your point is incomprehensible.
You must be joking – the UN is a democratic institution? Heh. No it isn’t. A democratic institution answers to an electorate. No-one elects the UN representatives. The UN is totally unaccountable. It isn’t democratic. Democracy doesn’t mean ‘voting’; it requires an elected legislature (the UN isn’t), operating according to a rule of law that is accountable to the electorate (not so in the UN).
It is made up of appointees of ‘all the states in the world’ – with the majority of them non-democracies. So, we get states that are dictatorships with enormous violations of human rights, chairing human rights committees!
Again, the UN is NOT a democracy. My god, you don’t understand Islamic fascism, you don’t understand democracy – and I’ll bet you don’t understand political tribalism either.
I certainly do blame Iran and SA for their involvement in Iraq, because their involvement is acting as hostile to the Iraqi people, is trying to prevent the Iraqi democracy and economy from working. The US involvement is attempting to enable the Iraqi people to develop a democracy and for the whole people to take control of their political structure and economy. Under Hussein, only he and his tribe controlled both.
I don’t think that your criticism is legitimate because it is, frankly, so ignorant of basic political ideology, ignorant of the history of the ME, ignorant of what is going on there now.
Yes, it is astonishing that the German people, a highly educated, cultured and scientific people, could fall for Hitler. But – remember, many of them didn’t; they were cowed into silence.
No, I am not being fed lies; the terrorist attacks in New York, in London, in Madrid, in Bali, in the Netherlands, in France, in Iraq – are all real. They are promoted by Islamic fascists who very clearly outline their agendas. So, no – my govt is not lying to me; I have the capacity to observe what is going on myself.
Yes, the media is biased towards the left. And more nonsense from you – when you say that ‘the govt would never allow it’. Please inform me, exactly how would the govt stop a leftist media from publishing and speaking, in our democracies? Please tell me; I’m fascinated.
What is this truth to which you refer? I’m quite capable of observing and analyzing facts, but so far, your ignorance of both facts and theory don’t convince me that I’m wrong.
You state that ‘we/I’ are obsessed with right and left in America. Frankly, the situation with Islamic fascism and the ME has nothing to do with left and right – but with political and economic structures – particularly – the dysfunctional nature of political tribalism that is the root cause of Islamic fascism.
The reason why this is your last posting is because you can’t answer my criticism of your posts.
Excellent ET.
I knew this would happen
This really is my last post. I am a busy man.
The media is the key.
1. Who owns the news comps?
The media is run by big corporations. Western gov policy is aligned to helping big corporations prosper. Therefore it is in their interest to protect such policies.
2. Advertisers
The news is also paid for by advertisers. These advertisers are big companies trying to sell their products. Why would they pay money to news shows and papers which were trying to subvert the conditions in which they prosper? ie. the laisse faire capitalism which you advocate
2. What dominates the news?
Take a look at any paper or news report on any given day. They are all dominated by government, or affiliated sources. Hence the views of academics etc are not given space as since when does an academics view merit news?
Therefore most of what we read in the media are what politicians say and their isn’t much of a difference between the Dems and Reublicans for example. You will note that my views which are the views of millions are far more radical than that of the Dems.
4. Government pressure
In the UK I could give you many high profile examples of the gov cracking down on the BBC when it tried to bring the truth of the lack of WMDs in Iraq. As a consequence, journalists know if they go to far in speaking the some of the facts that i have used today the gov will crack down on them. Our systems are almost identical
Classic tactics used by the media:
Divert the obvious by accusing the media of being bias towards the left.
Give a pretence of objectivity but all the while keeping criticism within strict bounds.
ETC ETC
NOTE: All Brits and Europeans regardless of political leanings, right or left, really do and I’ve seen it often, laugh at FOX news. We on this side of the atlantic see it as the most extreme propaganda ever devised. Judging by your views, you are an avid fan.
Once again, good luck ET. I’ve spent too much time on this thing.
ps Apollyn. Why are you so obsessed with communists? Ciao as well
i just checked the definition of democracy because i thought you may have a point with what you said about the UN. But no…
Oxford def…
democracy
/dimokrsi/
• noun (pl. democracies) 1 a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives. 2 a state governed in such a way. 3 control of a group by the majority of its members.
3 = the UN (or atleast it would if the great powers, US, UK, France, Russia etc, weren’t more equal than others.)
Long live democracy.
Johnny, I was born in a former communist country and revile communism. Many leftists need to be reminded of the absolute inhumanity that is communism. Stalin murdered far more than Hitler.
johnny miller – that ‘mode’ of democracy is NOT democratic, because the members are UNELECTED! You simply don’t get it. The members of the UN are NOT ELECTED! They are appointed. Therefore, the fact that they vote, is utterly irrelevant.
Do you seriously think that a communist or fascist caucus, because each of these appointed men, vote – is a democratic system? THINK!
Now, your ‘syllogism’ on the media is logically false. Why? Well, I won’t go into the logical structure of your argument (you are committing the error of undistributed middle term) – but, if we just consider the facts and not the logical fallacy –
you assert that the media are controlled by big corporations, and that ‘western govt policy is geared to help big corporations. Both these premises are opinions; but, they cannot logically be connected.
The fact that the media are controlled by big corporations is an economic fact – who else can afford to pay the infrastructure and employment and taxes etc? Your statement that western govt policy is geared to help big corporations is false; a great deal of a western nation’s economy is medium size corporations.
But – logically, you can’t connect these two statements.
Furthermore, you are stating that a big corporation (media) is necessarily supportive of the govt. But, the facts are that the MSM is strongly hostile to govt, in both the US and Canada. Explain that.
Your ‘advertisers’ comment is lost on me. I don’t get your point.
Since what many academics, particularly in the humanities and social sciences say is a lot of empty vapid postmodern smug irrelevance (and I’m an academic) – then, why on earth should their endless pontificating be in a newspaper?
But, there were WMD in Iraq; how do you think Hussein gassed the Kurds? Furthermore, your statement that the govt stopped the BBC from commenting on this is without evidence; it’s just your opinion. Could you provide evidence of ‘the many high profile examples’? I’d appreciate it; I’m sorry, but your word isn’t enough.
Equally, I’d like some statistical evidence for your claim that “All Brits and Europeans…laugh at Fox News’. I’m sure you know what ‘all’ means and I’d like to see the statistical evidence for your claim.
And – you haven’t answered any, not even a single thing, of my criticisms of your comments on Islamic fascism, the role of Iran, the nature of the insurgency in Iraq, the tribalism in the ME, and so on. Why not?
And again – the UN is NOT a democratic institution! Yikes – because a band of self-appointed men vote within that group doesn’t make that group DEMOCRATIC! It’s the accountability of the membership to an electorate! If there isn’t any electorate, then, the system can’t be democratic! Sheesh. Talk about ignorance. The definition of democracy is ancient.
Here’s Aristotle:
‘the election of officers by all out of all’. He outlines four kinds of democracy – all of which require that the MEMBERS ARE ELECTED. Got that? The members are ELECTED. The UN members are NOT elected. Just because these unelected members vote, doesn’t make the UN a democracy! Sheesh.