78 Replies to “Oh?”

    1. A heat pump, whether air to air or ground source, is an electrically driven device. Electricity is three to four times the cost of natural gas. The “claimed” COP`s ( coefficient of performance) of heat pumps can range from 3.5 to 4.0 and even 4.5 which must be true because it says so in the catalogue. But the COP figures are as reliable as the EPA gas mileage they quote for new cars, good for comparison but not real world. There is a lot of confusion in people`s mind about the difference between “energy’ efficiency and “money” efficiency. A heat pump may be energy efficient but is sure as hell is not money efficient.

      1. Spending $9000 on a heat pump on the mainland is a deal, she should appreciate the market competiton. Especially compared to Newfoundland where the con-tractors regularly charge unknowing people into buying systems three or five times their worth, yes mini splits $7000 to $9000, full residential systems $30,000 to $40,000… Isnt it funny how the price goes up every time the government issues a grant to homeowners.

  2. “Project managing the house development myself, as a single female, was difficult at the best of times but this man turned out to be rude, arrogant and unnecessarily obstructive.”

    does she have experience with “project managing” contractors? I suspect the surely plumber didn’t need constant supervision

    1. I saw a great sign in a shop a couple of years ago, JD.

      Rates:
      $25/hr
      $40/hr if you insist on watching and talking
      $100/hr if you insist on helping and giving advice.

      My wild-@$$ guess is that she is well-educated and “he’s only a tradesman” so she must be smarter and know more than he does. “Why don’t you do this?’ Or, “Why aren’t you doing that?” Perhaps he forgot to doff his cap.

      Or, he could have been a real jerk. We only know her side of the story.

      1. There are a lot of jerks out there.
        People who will bill you for plywood sub-flooring and install chipboard, bill you for 5/8″ fire-board and install regular 1/2″ drywall, etc. They tend to get rude when called out on their shenanigans.

      2. There would be two more rate levels.
        Above with argument $125/hr
        Argument with fisticuffs $200/hr

        1. Extra for “box jobs”
          “It used to be a chain saw!”

          Also: $100 surcharge if you worked on it first.

  3. Everybody I know who has installed one has seen significant savings. A good one on a big house can pay for itself in less than 5 years.
    It bugs me that they don’t make real window-mount heat pumps.

      1. A good one on a big house can pay for itself in less than 5 years.
        Hmmm,
        Assuming
        – its Canada, and the heat pump goes right above the furnace (and the outside part is … outside.)
        – min 100,000 BTU for a “big” house
        I’m gonna say the heat pump, installed, is $7500
        Pays for itself in 48 months? That means I would be saving $156.25 on energy costs, per month, every month… for four years.

        I’m no HVAC guy, but that sounds a bit optimistic to me. And by a “bit”, I mean a lot.

        1. Yeah, $150.00 a month savings sounds about right, to maintain an even 22C in the house over 4-5 years.

          1. My gas bill to heat, cook and provide hot water is only 175 a month…

            Mind I only live in a medium to small house, I don’t know what it would cost of I had a big house.

          2. My friend in eastern Ontario gets $800/month electricity bills in the summer.
            He does run a pump for his pool 24/7 from mind May to late Sept. though. I’ve been trying to talk him into a timer for it, to run it at mostly “off-peak” hours, but no luck so far.

        2. HP installs are hitting 15K less gubmint subsidy, for 3T pumps, adequate for large homes, 3,000sf.

          Paid off in 4 years? No, 8-10 more realistic. Still worth it for the Heat/Cool in one very capable and efficient unit. Still need backup heat (gas furnace) for extreme cold conditions

          1. My buddy in eastern Ontario pays more for AC in the summer than he does for heating in the winter. At -15C or warmer, his whole house is heated on the 5000W of his heat pump, running intermittently, basement, main floor and 2nd story, I’d say around 3000 sq. ft.
            Propane kicks in when it drops below -15C.

          2. BC vs Ontariowe. Your rates there are hideous, thanks WYNNEing!
            My AC cost here is CHEAP, pretty much runs non-stop June to Sept, cheapest bills of the year.

      1. That’s why God invented fans.
        Heat sink != heat pump.
        Any air-conditioner is a heat pump, just not properly tuned to pump heat from a -15C heat source to a 20C heat sink. They are specifically tuned to pump heat from a 20C heat source to a 30C heat sink, approximately.
        There is no real reason why a window-mounted heat-pump could not be engineered.

        1. HiHo,
          You can google units that go through the wall. For single room usage, I assume. Surely that could go through a window?

          Also, I am starting to wonder if your friend ever turns off the lights. $800 a month for elec? And I thought i was paying a lot….

          1. My experience of shopping for thru-wall PTHP units is that they’ve not achieved the cold-weather performance of “mini-split” units. For the well-reviewed (e.g.: operate with reasonable noise level and don’t break down prematurely) established brands, the switchover to electrical-resistance-heat is above-freezing; vs –25° for the better mini-split units.

            In the right circumstances, they might save enough in shoulder spring-fall heating for those who need to truck-in oil or propane — or those who currently use electric resistance heating, to make them worthwhile even if not desired for summer cooling. The “sleeve” requires opening of about 42″ x 16″ for a standard hotel style unit and 26″ x 16″ for the mini-PTHP

    3. What’s the time to positive ROI if you remove all the government subsidies at every step in the supply chain?

      What’s the time to positive ROI if you remove all the pointless taxes on fossil fuels that drive the price of heating through the roof?

      The market is surprisingly good at finding solutions to things when it’s not being kneecapped by government buying people’s votes with their own money.

      1. Agreed. This is in Ontario, where electricity cost is through the roof, and propane ain’t cheap, and heating oil, fuggetaboutit, the greenies have almost made it illegal.
        Still, heat pumps are very, very efficient when they are built and installed correctly.

        1. Oil or propane may be pricey but my neighbor told me his new cold weather compliant heat pump cost him $24K. And that’s a replacement for the old one that died. We’re on Hydro One medium density rates, so there’s that too.

      2. Just like rooftop solar and wind eyesores … heat pumps are 1970’s (actually quite older) technology. As for the savings ? Call me skeptical … unless all other fuels are spiked in price to dissuade use, and electric is subsidized to make it look cheaper. But heat pumps aren’t magic. It’s physics, and in physics … there is no free lunch. You’re just trading one fuel for another … one means of heat exchange for another.

        Heat pumps were all the rage in the 1970’s … but as with all things that have functional deficiencies … they faded away, and no one installed them anymore. Kinda like that solar array that Jimmy Carter put on the White House that probably powered a few light bulbs … and when it degraded with time … poof! It got hauled off the roof. So enjoy your heat pumps when they fail due to their complexities and cheap Chinese parts. Enjoy.

        Oh, and incompetent, ignorant, construction managers with front holes? I can only imagine what the tradesmen think of she/her …

    4. BS, they work like crap. I had a modern house in the south of france, FRANCE – not canada. There were 4, get it 4, pumps units each trying to heat a different part of the house. As soon as the temp dipped below 5C, not minus 5C, just 5 C the pumps turned into ice blocks. Installer told me that wasn’t possible, they had heaters to prevent that. I made him come and see his heated ice blocks, the pump and radiator were literal ice blocks. The house was freezing. I had to go an buy electric (resistive) heaters to actually keep pipes from freezing. Got some local guys to ignore all planning rules (cash helps) and install a very quick fireplace so the kids wouldn’t freeze.

      So it was good ole firewood and nuclear (it was france) power than kept the house going. The fu&*ing heat pumps were total crap. I swore I’d never ever rely on one again.

      If this has been in canada, it wouldn’t have been just the pumps that were ice blocks.

      1. If you buy a heat pump that needs heaters, you’re what we call “a sucker.”
        All the window-mounted setups I’ve looked into need heaters, which says to me that they ain’t freakin’ heat pumps.
        My buddies heat pump works great until about -15C, and it never gets ice buildup on it.
        I’d say you bought the wrong system, not designed for where you live.
        A system that works in dry -10C air may not work so well in humid 0C air.
        Of course “Caveat Emptor” is racist now.

        1. Well, my natural gas furnace that I now have doesn’t care about being in the ‘right zone’, it just does its job at 5, -5, -10, -20, -30, -40 and worse (obviusly not in france anymore)

          One system does it all, with a heat pump system it barely does anything. Might as well get a car that only works on asphalt and never on concrete or gravel.

          So stick to your HP, I’ll stick to my burning system.

        2. -15C hey? Wow.. I can’t wait until it warms up to -15C here. Imagine being stupid enough to install a heating system that doesn’t work for 80% of winter. My mother in law lives in PEI where they use SK tax dollars to hand out free heat pumps. She’s on her 4th unit. These things cost about $8k each and they are room heaters. As in you need one for each room. Complete garbage. No matter how many times HiHo repeats that they are “very very efficient.”

          Forced air furnace that runs on natural gas combined with an AC unit. That’s what you need to get to.

    5. For many years I had a Philco “Florida” heat pump built around 1965. It was great to about 40 degrees. Below that it was hardly more efficient than a resistance heater. Still, l loved it as I do all vintage Philco items. Ironically, I left the “Florida ” heat pump in Pennsylvania when I moved to… Florida.

    6. This is certainly false. Heat pumps are garbage. They are efficient from about 5 degC to 10 degC. Below that they are inefficient wastes of time. Above that and they are not needed.

      It’s the classic government swindle: Poor people in SK are paying for rich people in PEI to install heat pumps right now.

      People need to just stop with this nonsense. Grin and bear the expense of heating with fossil fuels until a group of adults form government and scrap the entire scheme.

  4. She’s clueless.

    The 24/7 temp control year round, at reduced cost, is more than worth it. Maybe they don’t need AC in Old Blighty, which would tilt the scales a little. Still, we would never go back to a different primary source of home heating and cooling, with baseboard electric as the absolute worst, least efficient and most expensive home heating in BC. Builders love them, they are the cheapest heat system to install.

    1. I live in an 800 sq ft one bedroom, baseboard heated. In the winter, I keep my place at 15C, and even then it can cost me north of $200/month, as a matter of fact, it went up to $400/month a few years ago, when we had 2 weeks of -30C highs in the day for a couple of weeks, but I guess that was before the fire-hazard Chinese heater+conductive wire on my pipes failed.
      Just recently, it went down to -35 for a couple of days, and my pipes froze, and I wound up heating my pipes with a hair dryer, which is when I noticed the mickey-mouse heater/wire outfit, buried in all the ratshit in my crawlspace. I cleaned it all up myself, even though I’m a parasite renter.
      My neighbor upstairs hot water now smell like sulfur, because the sacrificial anode in his water heater is done. Great landlord says “smelly water is normal”, then tells him he can’t replace it because the heater is a rental.
      This place was great until the effin Toronto people took over, lookin’ to make a quick buck.
      My building was a train station, then a sawmill, then rental units, with only one entrance/apt.
      We had a fire here a couple years ago, I ran up one set of stairs and kicked in a door, no-one home…went to go into the unit with the fire, got about 5 stairs up, and whoa! To hot to breath. The fire dept showed up, but a broad forgot her equipment, so it burned for another 15 minutes, and they wouldn’t lend me their stuff to get in there and deal with it, just made us all wait while the place burned.
      Illegal to be a hero and risk your life to save 20 people (including myself) from homelessness.
      Screw this country of little pussywillows.

      1. 2800sf, my worst power bills are $160/mo, w/heat pump, lights and all appliances. Gas HW. This is Victoria area. House built in 1997. Yes, we do get cold spells here.

        You’re getting raped in Ontariowe.

        1. Sorry, meant to say $160 FOR TWO MONTHS, during the summer with AC.

          Can’t beat $80 a month in a big home.

          1. Gotta love hydroelectricity. When SK goes nuke we’ll be in the same boat.

      2. “I cleaned it all up myself, even though I’m a parasite renter.”
        Every colonial in Canada is a tenant, and good tenants take pride in their lot.

      3. Hi, I now live in a two bedroom condo, slightly under 1000sq ft. Baseboard electric. We keep it at 70 to 72 F. Hydro was $145.00 for Jan, $142.00 for Feb. When running a/c in the summer it is about the same for a couple of months. the rest of the time about $80.00 or $90.00 per month. All electric.

  5. If you read through it, the problem was the lack of qualified installers, not with having a heat pump. And government “helping” out. After watching Clarkson’s farm, I understand just how much the government helps out over there.
    Now that the whole brouhaha is done, the heat pump’s working well. And now that more installers are being trained… I’ve considered getting one myself, but I don’t want to run any new electric lines.

    Similar issue with electric cars…lots of cars, not enough infrastructure. That being said, I still wouldn’t want to sit at a charger every 200 miles for an hour.

  6. So now the Canadian right is saying that heat pumps are not a useful thing. Un-effin-real.

    1. No one said that.
      Stop projecting.
      It is unbecoming.

      The discussion is over cost/subsidies.

      1. Either they are cost-effective, in which case they are good, or they are not, in which case they ain’t.
        Now let us look at the title of this post:
        ” ‘Fitting a heat pump has been an expensive waste of time’”
        Tell us, does this sound like an argument from the position that heat pumps are useful?
        The first user post called them an “eco-scam” FFS!
        And a significant portion of the rest seem to argue that they are not cost efficient.

  7. I worked for a couple years in HVAC, and you know what’s neater than heat-pumps? Heat exchangers for big buildings. The ones I saw were big wheels, 1-15′ in diameter, of this weird ceramic-like stuff wound in a spiral with air gaps between each layer. They would spin at something around .5-1 rpm or so, run the exhaust air from the building to harvest the heat, and the fresh intake air would be heated: I’ve seen 100s of CFM of -25C outside air heated to 8C by these things, at the cost of around 100 watts to spin the wheel. That is gonna save many thousands of dollars a year in heating.
    Some other buildings use a glycol fluid heat exchanger system, but I never saw that kinda delta T with them.

  8. How efficient are air source heat pumps at -15C ?
    I will stick with my HE natural gas as long as I can.

    1. Not only are they not efficient at -15C, they won’t heat. So they run electricity through a resistor to heat. Unless you get a $50k unit. Forced air furnace combined with an AC unit. Don’t let anyone convince you to move away from that. Don’t listen to HVAC installers like HiHo who get rich off selling and installing these boat anchors.

      1. Just like WA state saying to install solar? When the winter months you’ll be lucky to see sun about every 3 weeks, and that’s for maybe a few hours.

  9. Tru dat, HiHo, but I wasn’t commenting in tradesmen or plumbers in general.

    Her system was installed correctly, and best I can tell from the article, works well. The plumber did a good job.

    From the article:

    Project managing the house development myself, as a single female, was difficult at the best of times but this man turned out to be rude, arrogant and unnecessarily obstructive.

    Arrogant? Was she trying to tell him he was doing it all wrong and he was dismissing her professional plumbing advice? For example… [nothing]. Obstructive? Was she insisting, as Project Manager, that he do things a certain way and he refused, knowing it would in in tears if done her way? For example… [nothing]. Rude? For example… [nothing].

    As I wrote, we only have her side of the story and with precious little detail. So, he may have been all she said and more. Or perhaps she could be an arrogant jerk. I made my WAG, based on my experience with educated, green, woke, eco-Church Ladies and the fact that the job was done correctly, but conceded that I could be wrong. We don’t know in this case because we only have one side of the story.

    1. Agreed. They don’t even need to be woke greentards. Housewives are the bane of tradesmen, they’ll nag you to take yer effin workboots off.
      Her highlighting that she’s “a single female” is a huge red flag, given today’s media, IMHO.

  10. No regrets about the poor screwed taxpayers who got hosed for her grant money.

    Well, on second thought that’s not quite right: she’s disappointed she missed out on another chance to screw them even more.

    1. Gee, I wonder what her tax payed/grants received ratio is.
      Maybe 5 or so? Myself, I’m workin’ on making it 1, because I’m now a parasite on the system that has punished me for making a buck since the word Galt.

        1. You either pay the enemy, or you realize that you are behind enemy lines, and govern yourself accordingly.

  11. Living on the prairies using a heat pump to heat your home in the winter is practically useless, there’s literally no heat to be sucked out of -30 temperature. I’ll stick with my forced air furnace thanks. But as air conditioning a heat pump works good. If you install a smallish one on each end of your house you can keep your main floor cool (I’m assuming around 12 – 1400 square feet) and it’s cheaper than refitting your furnace and installing central air.

      1. Here -15 starts ~early November and doesn’t end until late March with some warmer breaks thrown in. Last week I woke up to -20 to -30 just about every morning.

    2. Precisely….thats why the air to air are next to useless in Canada.

      However, if your using a liquid ground loop I’ve heard and seen nothing but good things about them. Its all about efficiency.

      https://youtu.be/7J52mDjZzto

      This guy, while a bit goofy does a good job explaining them and the different types of systems available.

    1. Indeed. People are heat pumps.
      We are all just expressions of the flame, burning carbon and hydrogen with oxygen, whooda thunk it could give rise to things like us?

      1. Mechanical engineers design building cooling systems primarily to overcome the radiant heat of humans … esp. in tight, enclosed spaces. People generate a shitload of heat.

  13. I’ve used a heat pump and oil furnace forced-air combo for as long as we’ve owned this house, over 30 years. 1K sq ft and full basement.
    The first heat pump was in place when we bought the place from my wife’s family (grandparents home). We replaced everything in 2009. Cost about $8k for heat pump and efficiency oil furnace. 1 K L dual wall oil tank.
    Ottawa is pretty fickle when it comes to temperature, cold spells in the winter and hot/humid spells in summer. The heat pump is great to about -15C, we use 200 to 250 L oil per season (about 15-20 days per season). The few days that the oil furnace works and how much oil it uses, this heat pump has definitely lowered costs. While I don’t think that it paid for itself in 5 years, I know it’s past paid for itself now.
    Summer the heat pump works great as an AC.
    I like them and will recommend them every time.

  14. “On top of that, because the heating had to be installed from scratch — there was no pre-existing system —at least half of my overall plumbing bill of £13,000 went on installation, pipework, radiators and underfloor heating.”

    I see.

  15. I have a geothermal system – two exchangers (4 T and 2.5 T) – to heat a big place (8,000 sq ft). It’s an open loop system (pulls water from a well, puts water back into another well). I’ve owned it for 8 or 9 years now. Works great to about -15 C then starts to suck. I have wood stoves to cover the difference (about 4-10 days in winter here in southern Ontario). I keep the house at 22 C. It drops to 17 C on a really cold day.

    I used to own a house in Sudbury, Ontario with an outdoor heat pump. Much below -15 C it did nothing and I had electric heat to cover the difference. Switched to natural gas. $80/month in a toasty house.

    There is a big difference between heating and cooling, the former generally eating up more electricity (at least in Canada). Electricity use is about 20% higher than with double propane furnaces. Heating with forced air propane is very expensive these days.

    I expect heat pumps would work well in Britain. The lady expressed frustration with the installation and not the use of the product. I can tell by the way she holds a coffee cup that she looks over the worker’s shoulder to offer advice.

    I put in two out-buildings, about 1,000 sq ft each. They are both heated by in-floor propane-warmed coolant. This is proving to be a very efficient method of heating as the concrete floor doesn’t lose its heat like the air does. I filled my propane tank ($2,400) and I’ve gone through about 30% of the propane. But it’s been a mild winter. When I had the propane furnaces I had to fill the tanks 4 times in the winter.

    I also owned a condo with geothermal heating. It was a state-of-art building in 2010 in Toronto. Cost me $42/month to heat and cool 2,200 sq ft. By the time I sold in 2017 (who wants to live in Toronto) it was up to $80/mn. Geothermal is a great way to go. High up front installation cost and a 6-8 year payback. No subsidies. I don’t need the government to make an economic decision. So far the geothermal units (Tetco) have been very reliable. But they have to be serviced at 3 month intervals – clean the air and water filters.

    The article isn’t really about heat pumps. It’s about the frustration of not being able to get good trades people. We had a large window installed last year. The installers were great but the manufacturer had a defect. We are still waiting for a replacement window, 8 months later. I’ve learned to be polite, patient and persistent.

  16. I guess because this is British the terms are somewhat confusing. To me “off grid” means there is no “mains” electricity. Secondly, plumbers in the new world install plumbing, not HVAC equipment. And what happens to your energy savings if your complex heat pump setup goes south vs. a simple medium efficiency gas or propane furnace? I used the same rational in putting in an 80% – 85% medium efficiency gas boiler vs. a 95% efficient high efficiency condensing boiler. So if we are talking British here, sometimes we can be “penny wise and pound foolish”.

  17. Just built a 1600 square ft bungalow in SW Ontario, moved in mid January. Installed Mitsubishi HP Zuba system, 3 ton heating, with a 10Kw heat strip for backup when below -20C. No natural gas available so propane only option. Did the math and HP was cheaper to run. Using propane for water, stove, BBQ and fireplace. Just got my first electric bill post construction and it was $200 for 34 days taxes in. My last house I would spend that much or more on NG in winter. So I think the HP was the right choice. I checked the heat on the coldest night around -15C and almost burnt my fingers on the refrigerant pipe coming from the HP. The heat strip has not been used this winter. Will have to wait for next winter. Initial install cost was more expensive than traditional high efficiency gas furnace but hope to recover costs over life of HP. You have to have a proper load calculation and duct venting or efficiency drops. COP of my system maxed out at around 3.5. HPSF is over 10. These new cold climate HPs definitely work in Southern Ontario. House is more comfortable as well with even heat and no cold spots.

  18. As soon as the government gets involved, everything starts to smell.
    You want a heat pump or a propane furnace or radiant floor heating, that’s your business.
    You want Whirlygig or Sunspot energy, good on you, brag about it, nobody smart cares.
    People who want the government in their house, be it to give them grants or tell them how to bottle their farts, can eat fresh shit.
    The government needs to fckoff and die.

    1. Yes.
      Its all very good until…it’s a good time to die.
      Then its all about the children.

    3. Well said, Buddy. When the government starts steering me in a certain direction, I’m heading the other way.

  19. Ya know, there are only two bands that I really like.:
    Grand Funk Railroad and Blue Oyster Cult.

  20. Slightly off topic, but this story is a good one.
    Just last Thursday my cottage neighbour texted me to enquire what type of hydro bills we were getting at the cottage. Well, it just so happened that morning I paid one. $98. to keep the cottage at 15 degrees celcius and keep the water line heat on thru February. We go up now and again through the winter and don’t shut it down.
    Neighbour closes up her cottage and had it all shut off. She was distressed that her quarterly bill was $1700. Hmmm, I looked back and told her that our usage in December, when we were all here for Christmas was 1000 kWh, what was her bill saying? Hers was 11,000 kWh!! It made no sense. She said her total for the off season hydro bills had almost hit $6000. for her modest modern new build.
    I thought for a bit and then asked her if she had in-floor heating. She said yes, but it was all switched off. I replied…I don’t think so. We were heading up to our cottage on the Friday for March break, she told me where she hid her key and I promised to check it out.

    Hubby and I opened the door to her cottage and a wall of heat equal to a sauna hit us. Her TWO in floor heating controls were both set at 28 degrees!!! Those things would have run 24/7 through the winter.

    Sad lessons about the pitfalls of cottage ownership for sure!

  21. “I missed the first round of grants, to the tune of £10,000, in 2021 thanks to my council obstructing planning and initially refusing to allow me to site the pump beside the house (a fight I eventually won).”

    Men pump iron.
    Women pump air.

  22. I have gas furnace. My 1978 1592 square foot house, stays toasty only costs me a combined electric and gas $208 a month with all the crappy rate riders, taxes and carbon taxes. Without any government gobbledygook I might be using a whole $30 in actual energy or so a month. No heat pumps or other gimmicks.

  23. I designed a house for a friend who was hell bent on geothermal. (15 years ago). System cost him $65K and the first winter, half of his wells went dead. No water. Boy did he have to scramble to set up a propane fired boiler to keep the house from freezing up solid. (-40° northern Alberta). It was a lot of work and cash just to say he wouldn’t have a gas bill. He neglected, however to say how much his power bill was to drive the big pumps for the wells! In the end, he will never see a break even point. He’d have been far further ahead to install a basic natural gas furnace and regular gas fired hot water tank and only for about $10K (at the time). I replaced the old Flame Master furnace about the same time (15 yrs ago) Paid the HVAC dude $1,400 cash and the furnace is still chugging along today. it’s a mid-high (88-ish % efficient Carrier) with a regular chimney, single stage unit with no fancy electronics or condensing system to foul up. Had the local HVAC guy come and give it an inspection last fall and he said it’s as good as new, heat exchanger looks new and best of all, every single part in it is available and if anything inside it does go, it will be a cheap fix. Considered installing central AC, but the 15,000 BTU window shaker we have in the kitchen, with some strategically placed fans, keeps the entire place relatively cool (1,155 sq. ft.) even when we had the 43° C heatwave two years ago. The actual gas consumption of my monthly gas bill is typically only about 40% of the total. The rest is bullcrap service charges, “rate riders” (whatever the F that means), delivery charges and Blackie’s forced carbon tithe.

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