Long time commentator, ET, used to wax eloquently on the necessity of developing the middle class as a solution to problems within the Islamic sphere. I tended to agree with her premises.
It would seem there is another prominent Conservative who used a different soap-box to espouse similar ideals.
You guys are so lucky to have him.
I miss ET’s insightful Posts on SDA
Developing the middle class will do nothing, the problem is not an issue of wealth it’s an issue of religion. Remember the London bombers? All university educated, not poor by any means.
Anyone who thinks the middle class is a pervasive economic force hasn’t been out in the sunlight for a while. All the stats I have seen show a shrinking private sector middle class where those who are lucky enough to be employed have wages and pensions which do not keep pace with inflation and degenerated buying power. Many were near the end of their careers when unemployment hit wiping out savings and pensions. Many now work 2 or more entry level service sector jobs to simply pay bill and the thought of retirement is remote – that is what Obama kleptonomics has done to the greatest economic force since the Roman patrician class.
There IS an ascending economic class attempting to replace the shrinking private sector middle class, – this is the growing number of public sector workers who have indexed top tier wages and pensions in excess of their economic contribution – but of course this rising economic class is unsustainable as the private sector working class declines in real income and slip to lower tax brackets,the revenues taken from them to pay the public sector also declines .
It is an era of uncertain economic futures for middle class workers the best pension is tangible assets.
ET was wrong. Churchill had Islam pegged for what it truly is over a century ago. Jefferson had to send the newly-created US Marines to fight Muslims over two centuries ago. They have not changed. They are what they say they are. We should stop being so bloody stupid and take them at their word.
Islam is a cult of death and most likely will have to be wiped out, but Penn and Teller agree with PM Harper that more economic trade brings about a better world.
Mind you, this is just a crotchety old opinion, but I don’t think even a robust middle class would do moslims any good. A useful middle class must be large enough, educated enough, and robust enough that a few Bible or Koran thumpers can’t overturn it or make it ineffective. The middle class must be able to defend themselves and their way of life against all comers. Ain’t gonna happen in Muslim areas and ain’t gonna happen in deeply religious areas of this country. Those religious areas also include those dedicated to the religion of marx and socialism.
Otherwise, a dedicated few can come into town, take over, and kill all the infidels. That dedicated few has nothing to lose and everything to gain, The middle class, at that point nas everything to lose and nothing to gain.
Hey I have an idea! Why don’t we all eat oranges so apples won’t grow. IOW Wealth and Religion are mutually exclusive of each other. The Canadian ISIS recruits were all middle class. The British ISIS recruits are middle class. The leadership of ISIS and its ilk are very well off.
this is the only site that I found to see and hear PM Harper speak at UN
http://www.cpac.ca/en/digital-archives/?search=pm+harper+speech+un+2014+september+25
I like the majority of Canadians missed the live speech
I am so proud of the best Prime Minister of Canada
ET was eloquent … but dead wrong on just about everything in the ME.
That said, I too miss her intelligence, eloquence and erudition.
I miss Vitruvius too, and lookout and BATB.
BUT unlike Kate I don’t miss W. :-).
When I buy dates I always have a choice between U.S. California grown and Islamic country’s dates to choose from.
Then I choose the ones from the country that uses toilet paper and DOESN’T hate my guts.
Currently the Middle East is pretty much Feudalism with some “democratic” trappings. The guys in charge, I won’t dignify them with the term “leaders”, are making huge bank by concentrating wealth in the hands of a few cronies, by stirring up religious unrest, and most of all be keeping the mass of people hungry, ignorant and poor.
One of the major consequences of long-term poverty is stupidity, incidentally. It literally kills brain cells by means of poor nutrition, disease and general hardship.
The greater Cairo area in Egypt has more people in it than there are in Canada. How does a kleptocratic government keep that many people in line? Hate, fear and hunger is how.
How does a country like Canada intervene to break that? One word, WEALTH.
ET and Harper are not wrong. If those third world rat holes are allowed to prosper, the rising tide of money will destroy the ruling elite. Koran thumpers will be relegated to crappy back-street mosques and one cow towns out in Sticksville. Just like here.
Example, China vs. USA. China is slowly becoming more free, while the USA is becoming more totalitarian. The reason, flow of trade shifting concentration of wealth. Spreading in China, shrinking in the USA.
Nice to see Mr. Harper out there talking common sense and building up, unlike Barry who just talks a bunch of sh1t and bombs stuff. Difference between a democratic leader of a free country and a would-be totalitarian.
Really I only ever disagreed with ET about Israel, and even then only in the short term. Israel is going to get bombs rained on them until they clean up Gaza and the West Bank.
I miss them also.
Joe @ 9:05, exactly. The 1917 Bolshevik leadership was almost all middle or upper class in origin and turned on their own class exercising murder using the lies of supporting the lower class.
I also miss ET’s insight and agree with those who advocate that the ME needs a strong middle class, as does every region on earth, but that will not deter the fanatical Islamist terrorists whose aim is domination of the world. Churchill was right.
Old Country Boy, are you equating Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, and sundry other benign Christian groups with Islamist terrorists? Tut, tut. Moral equivalency is out to lunch on this.
Heh, another version of ‘can’t we all just get along?’…the mooslims
just aren’t interested in playing the part you want them to play.
Not going to happen.
To clarify, I didn’t mean wrong about the need for a middle class.
That’s obvious. America needs one too!
I also don’t disagree with beauty pageant contestants who earnestly advocate for “world peace”.
Nor do I disagree with libertarians who advocate for small nightwatchman style government.
While I hate to wax biblical, none of these things will come to pass.
The Phantom: you’ve gone wobbly.
When you opine that Israel needs to “clean up the West Bank and Gaza” you seem to be echoing Obama’s moronic musings about Israel needing to “do the hard work” of peace making.
Unless you mean destroy Hamas and the PLO.
ET never suggested that.
She really thought that the PLO were valid peace partners and that they had eschewed their desire to destroy Israel and visit a genocide upon the a Jews.
ET is the living embodiment of over intellectualization.
Example, China vs. USA. China is slowly becoming more free, while the USA is becoming more totalitarian. The reason, flow of trade shifting concentration of wealth. Spreading in China, shrinking in the USA.
The leftist wet dream, wealth redistribution…won’t happen with the mooslims, though.
Good thing the US and Canada are blessed with enough natural richness to weather all these leftist social experiments.
The Middle East *had* a growing, robust, Westernized middle class in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Mark Steyn has been pointing this out for a while. It lost that middle class because radical Islam took root and destroyed it. Steyn is fond of saying that culture trumps politics. I’d say it also trumps economics. ET had the cart before the horse – a rising middle class won’t destroy radical, fundamentalist Islam; radical fundamentalist Islam has to be destroyed so there can *be* a middle class. Again.
Smart folks who want to know nothing about Islam, always look like fools at the end of the day. Hubris, the bigotry of lesser expectations and oil tick money going to influential addresses, assure our losing for the foreseeable future.
Utter BS. The solution is to bomb them.
Bombing might be a bit severe. Though it will never happen, containment and repatriation would probably be best for all concerned. I know, a pipe dream.
Many greens fear prosperity, for this means a greater strain on the planet’s resources.
But the greatest long-term threat to the planet’s resources is an ever-growing population, and the first thing that people do when they rise out of poverty is stop having seven children. Prosperity is good for the planet.
I would also add that middle class Iranians, and they do exist, absolutely hate Israel.
No quite sure how the PM will explain that contradiction.
Have posted my comments to the article below; Cheers;
MikeSr • 4 minutes ago
Reading the article about P.M. Harper I experienced the usual thought, how ling before the trained harper-haters commenters voice their vitriol? The answer is exemplified by Mr.Greene below this comment.
The purposefully ignorant rant ignoring the support for Ukraine and the “boots on the ground” in the Middle-East. The deliberate drive-past the thanks from Israel for Canada now being among if not the best friend of this most beleaguered of M.E. countries. The only M.E. country still able to protect and support it’s minorities.
Yes! Mr.Greene there were few people in the U.N. Assembly Hall. This is the legacy of the several Majority Liberal Governments who only played lip-service to the U.N., thinking because Canada always ponied up their fees, Canada never stood for anything except a few stints as peace keepers over the decades from the mid-fifties.
Liberal Government Foreign Minister Mann finally told the truth when he said, and I paraphrase, “Canada cannot get up from the Table every time the bill to support military action arrives and leave if there is to be any respect”. This type of failure last a long time in the reputation of a Nation and State.
Recognizing Canada is a large geographical country with a middling size population the NEW and Now present policy of providing specific situational support means not only greater control of Canadian Tax-Payer funds being spent in the many corrupt nations, but also better control of the misadventure and corruption endemic in the United Nations.
Do you Mr. Greene, unless it is necessary to receive further direction from your Librano handlers, not agree a funding approach which focuses on children and mothers in distress is a good use of Canadian Tax-Payer funds. Further do you not think Canada, with the largest number of Canadian Citizens who have a Ukraine ancestry and family connection outside of the Ukraine should have a Canadian focus.
Please remember the last time there were wars in the Balkans and the European Steppes large numbers of people were killed than through ethnic cleansing. Will that experience be greater than the present conflagration now occurring in the M.E. only time will tell. By the way the invasion of Ukraine during WW II forced a second class colonial society on The Ukraine lasting more than five decades.
No Mr. Greene the words spoken by P.M. Harper are not the deceitful words. It is your words, presumably at the direction of someone else, which are the deceitful words. Sincerely;
G. Greene • 11 hours ago
What a deceitful speech from Harper. Pushing forward his free market ideals to a group of national representatives trying to struggle with what are almost insurmountable issues of terrorism, starvation, plague, religious rebellions . . . . . .
It is no wonder that the room was fairly lean with representatives during his speech. They ‘have’ heard it all before from the likes of Harper.
One final point. ET was a firm believer that there was such a thing as a “moderate Muslim”. Ha ha.
This isn’t about the middle class or anything of the sort. Like the above have said, most of those who wish to go die in a barren sandy wasteland are pretty much all at least middle class in their countries. You think the Hamilton loser or the Calgary inbred ones don’t have families well over the poverty line? That just means they can afford more than one item off of the Air Canada inflight menu on their flight to Damascus.
Islam isn’t like Western Churchianity: these people Believe in their book. Not like the Churchians (I’m looking at you, United Church…) who pick and choose the parts they think fit them the most (how many quote Ephesians 5:23-29 and mean it?) they Believe in the entirety of the Koran. I’ve read it and can quote it. There’s no God there but they think there is.
No, I was thinking “clean up” in the “use a bulldozer” sense, not the “meals on wheels” sense.
Some people you reason with, some you skip the talking part.
This is why neocons are NOT conservative. All the socialist neocons are interested in is to funnel my taxpayer dollars to help the poor little Muslims “develop the middle class” or “bring them democracy” and other goodies courtesy of my taxpayer dollars.
In that respect, the socialist neocon is even worse than the regular socialist, because the regular socialist at least wants to spend my taxpayer dollars in the citizens of my country. The socialist neocon wants to funnel and divert taxpayer dollars to foreign countries which is not only theft but also treason.
I AM NOT INTERESTED in helping the poor little Muslims “develop their middle class” or “bring them democracy” and I certainly do not pay taxes for that purpose. I hate Islam and I hate so-called Islamic culture and I couldn’ t care less about their problems. The only thing I would be interested in bringing them is a couple of nuclear mushroom clouds. But this is NOT what the retarded neocons propose.
If Harper keeps in this path, I will be casting my vote for Shiny Pony. At least he will spend my money in Canada and not abroad.
Um, dimwit, yes ET was rite, and you and many others in here display a complete lack of understanding of basic human nature. Just because developing the middle class is not 100% effective does not mean that it is not the best solution. U are a classic example of the fact that you do not understand that you do not understand. ET was miles ahead of you and many others in here on the intellectual scale
There is a great deal of confusion in this thread. Part of the problem is the Yanks who post here who bring their ignorance here and it starts spreading like a fungus.
Most Republican voters in Yankeeland have been duped into thinking that “neocon” means “ultra-conservative” or “hard-core conservative” when nothing could be further from the truth. This confusion arises from the poor level of education in Yankeeland.
The term “neocon” was coined to describe former liberals and socialists who gradually infiltrated the Republican Party. Hence the term neo-conservative or new conservative implies that they were not conservative before. Read the biography of Billy Kristol’s daddy or Podhoretz, all noted neocons and former Trotskyite communists. They had apparently “seen the light” and realized the benefits of a “tougher foreign policy”. However this is all lies and deception, because these communists just found a way to recycle their Trotskyite ideology and repackage and rebrand it. Instead of exporting a “communist revolution” they started talking about exporting a “democracy revolution”. Sounds more palatable, doesn’t it?
The way they operate is by duping the average Republican voter into thinking that by military intervention they mean “kicking some arab ass” when in fact what they mean is improving the lives of the arabs and bringing them “democracy” and other goodies all courtesy of the American taxpayer.
For a small token of this, read any screed by neocon poster ET or the garbage spouted by Harper in the article above that reads exactly like a liberal screed asking you to improve the lives of the poor Arabs with “democracy” and “free trade” meaning of course money and whatnot. Read neocon rhetoric and ask yourselves, what does it actually resemble?
Realist conservative foreign policy acknowledges the fact that Islam and democracy are not compatible. Same for Islam and free trade. You cannot have democracy and Islam. You cannot have free trade and Islam.The utopic Trotskyite neocons told everyone they were going to export their “democracy revolution” all over the Arab world and they failed miserably because they denied reality.
Harper, just like neocon poster ET, is an imbecile.
Would someone tell Stevie that Islam requires that all infidels pay the Muslims a tax called the “jizya”. They are supposed to pay this tax with humiliation and servility to their Muslim masters. How can you have “free trade” with the Muslims, then Stevie?
As usual the retarded neocons bring nothing to the table except ignorance, utopic denial of reality and socialist theft of my taxpayer money for their utopic crusades abroad.
Harper – and I like our PM – should drop by some of the graduate engineering schools in our Canadian universities and speak to some of the many Muzzie graduate students from places like Iran and Egypt. They are almost all middle class Muzzies who have come here to suck on our education system.
He should ask them “Hey Muzzie, what do you think of democracy?”, “Hey Muzzie, what do you think of Sharia Law?”, “Hey Muzzie, what is your view on Israel?” He would be surprised by the answer these middle-class Muzzies give him.
And while he is walking about he will see Muzzies praying in the middle of hallways, he will see Muzzies using sinks in public washrooms on campus to wash their smelly disgusting feet, and all sorts of wonderful things like that. He will also find Muzzie professors who have turned their offices into mini-Mosques. And while he’s at it, he should ask those Muzzie professors, in their mini-Mosques, “Why is every single one of your graduate students a Muzzie?”
Our dear PM is dreaming if he thinks capitalism will save us from Muzzies and other assorted scum. What will save us from them are bombs.
Exactly.
NME666, I clarified myself in a second post in which I agreed that a middle class would be desirable.
I also agreed with beauty contestants who think “world peace” would be nice.
Do you get my drift?
ET was unable to see what a total joke the so-called Arab Spring was. Unable to see that Obama was a hard core ideologue. Unable to see that Fatah was not moderate and was no peace partner EVER.
Again, I liked and respected ET, but unlike you I’m not a sycophant. I’m a free thinker.
And I do not feel a need to bask in ET’s superior intelligence and erudition by engaging in rote agreement with everything she said. I certainly agreed with much of what she said and even agreed with a lot of what you’ve said here too. And when I didn’t I didn’t engage in ad hominem attacks.
ET was also unable to ever admit she was wrong about anything.
“ET was also unable to ever admit she was wrong about anything.”
That’s how I remember ET. And the fact that she framed arguments at high levels of generality, in terms of broad theories. Great if you like that sort of thing.
There is something fundamentally wrong about thinking that economic demographics can, do or ever will trump religious cultural ideology.
It’s the same thing as believing that our North American economic success somehow sprung forth due to a sudden flurry of trade and capitalist growth. Or just because there were resources here to exploit. It DID NOT!
The fundamental thing that enabled the development of our nation and created the possibility of a successful form of democratic governance along with respect for individual freedom is the Judeo-Christian tradition and morality.
These are things that Asia, The Middle East (aside from Israel) along with every other will never have and the reason they are all doomed to fail as they regress to totalitarianism.
Wow all over the place with comments. Appreciate the fact no one bothered with the asshat trolls.
the bear >
I agree 100%.
Although ET wrote some good comments on a variety of issues, she was dead wrong about the “Arab Spring” and wrote naïvely if not completely ignorantly about Islamic/ Arabic culture in general.
Her views of the MENA were almost entirely based on theoretical modeling admittedly based on her “vast readings” and subject to her own feelings or someone else’s model based on Western European culture.
Unfortunately she and a society of likeminded Liberal intelligentsia have decided for the rest of us that their visualized concepts of a global utopia are the reality whether we like it or not.
“ET” is not presenting any new information here and all of this is mere idle speculation as to what you think “ET” might think based on your interpretation.
Just state your own views instead of what you think someone else who isn’t in the discussion thinks.
Kill all Muslims carrying arms, preferably by air, don’t ask questions, just eliminate them ceaselessly and ruthlessly.
I would largely agree with your comment, though I would suggest that economic advances for the middle class will lessen the drift of, or attraction to, radical extremist solutions.
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2014/09/20140926-140414.html
So now the Harper govt. will have an EU/Canada free trade agreement framework. While economic well being won’t sway the hardliners, it will make others less susceptible to an ideological cancer.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
#2 >
There may not be a middle class in Libya or Egypt today after the “Arab Spring” but there was one prior to Obamba raising Islam against them.
There was “free trade” and “capitalism” in both countries’ prior to their dictators overthrows and they paid some of the lowest personal income taxes in the world 10% to 15%.
Prior to the overthrow Libya’s foreign corporate tax rate was 40% (The same as in the US) to foreign companies operating within Libya, today it is now 20%. Funny that.
Here’s a fine article explaining what was, and what is now.
It describes ET’s comments of the time perfectly:
“According to sectors of the “Progressive Left” which have endorsed NATO’s R2P mandate: “The mood across Libya, particularly in Tripoli, is absolutely —like there’s just a feeling of euphoria everywhere.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/destroying-a-country-s-standard-of-living-what-libya-had-achieved-what-has-been-destroyed/26686
ET was a sharp broad.
Her analysiseses were straightforward and mostly accurate. a lack of undesireable elements which she ignored(religious, criminal) is/was/means…
Yeah, where did these commenters go, did they just get tired of the blogosphere? I really miss batb.
I suspect Batb left because a certain regular here continually viciously bashes people of faith and continues to get away with it.
Agreed, and it was because of ad hominem attacks that ET and Batb left.
“If Harper keeps in this path, I will be casting my vote for Shiny Pony. At least he will spend my money in Canada and not abroad.”
Then you’re a bigger fool than you claim Harper is and ET was.
Bonehead, drippy liberals like Shiny Pony always give money away to useless foreign causes. And if you are a supporter of Shiny Pony, what are you doing here?
Anyone who cares about Canada would not vote for such an obviously unfit, unprepared,outright stupid person Justin Trudeau presents to be up to this point.
Perhaps if one cares to consider the cases of Saudi Arabia and China. There is no freedom of religion in Saudia Arabia nor is there such a freedom in China. Economics don’t always equal democracy. Ideology knows no class.
John Galt >
“…….all of this is mere idle speculation as to what you think “ET” might think based on your interpretation.”
mmm, not really, you can go back to SDA 2010 & 2011 archives and read through months of debate between ET and others.
ET’s views are well documented.
The reality of the middle east today proves who was on the right side of the “Arab Spring”.
The other vocal proponent was resident SDA troll LAS who cheered on Libya’s armouries going to the “rebels” who would then in turn use them to “liberate” the remainder of the MENA.
Not quite.
ET was an enabler of the “Palestinians”. She once drew a moral equivalence between the well known Palestinian desire to “Drive the Israelis into the Sea” and Israel’s need to build the separation wall(while it was Still in the process of being built), which wall has since proven to have been the solution to the explosively bloody 2nd Intifada.
“ET, used to wax eloquently on the necessity of developing the middle class as a solution to problems within the Islamic sphere.”
I disagree. Far from being eloquent, she simply parroted the general idea of the need for one, over and over, accompanied by zero practical methods by which any of it could be brought about.
Oz >
100%