In the Feb. 6 decision, they ruled that it was discrimination to hold foreign-born “engineers” to Canada’s professional standards.
They ordered APEGA to pay Mihaly $10,000 in cash. And they ordered APEGA to contact Mihaly’s schools back in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, to find out if in fact Mihaly was a good engineer. Not by testing him. But by talking to the schools over there, decades after Mihaly left.
They had to do more, too. They had to convene a panel of foreign-born Alberta engineers to help Mihaly. They had to find him a mentor. They had to help him find networking parties to go to.
Yeah, I heard about this last night on Ezera Levant’s The Source. Somewhere there has to be some common sense appeal system to this kangaroo court (no offense to kangaroos btw). Would the Canadian Medical Assn stand for this type of Bull Hoakey? And just how does one become one of these “judges” anyhow? Someone should present a case to the Human Rights Commission for not hiring them to be a judge and see how it turns out.
If they make the Alberta Human Rights Commission move to the top floor of a building he has certified, it could be a winning condition situation.
Achieving the APEGGA designation isn’t that onerous. One needs to have graduated from an accredited institution, worked for about 5 years in the engineering profession, write some ethics exams and (correct me if I’m wrong) a basic skills tests.
You have to be either a complete moron or completely lacking in professional ethics or morality to be denied engineering status. I’m sure that if he was denied this designation, it has a lot more to do with his incompetence than anything else.
Rob
bang on, I’v worked with a lot of engineers here in Canada and the USA, and there a lot who can think in a comprehensive way, they disgrace the profession for those who are good and who are ethical. So passing the “exam” can’t be that hard. I f can’t pass it is probably a sign he shouldn’t be certified.
It should be possible to hold the moronic bastards personally liable for negative outcomes to their decisions.
It is indeed discrimination. The engineering societies in Canada ALL discriminate against anyone who cannot prove their professional competency. We don’t care if you are white, brown, black or green, straight, gay, man, woman or indeterminate. Just competent. This is a good thing. It should be encouraged. Ask the people of Elliot Lake. This falls under the category of the world being run by crazy people.
The first reason this annoys me is the very existence of a “Human Rights” tribunal in the first place. There is no “right” to employ the state to coerce gain from human interaction. This is more evidence for the theorem of: How do we cede liberty? Answer, Conservatively, Liberally, or full-on fascism/socialism (NDP).
The second is that there should be no government involvement in professional associations, IOW, no ‘right to practice’ (guild-socialism) legislation. Voluntary self-policing professional associations regulated by the market via liability is functional and, lacking in rent seeking and politics, moral.
The actual decision:
http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abhrc/doc/2014/2014ahrc1/2014ahrc1.html
Ezra was not exaggerating.
Next time one of these “Human Rights” commissars gets ill and needs an operation, send them to me. I’ll set them up with a couple of foreign medical grad anesthesiologists and surgeons as well as a couple of GPs and nurses who were rejected by our system but who I’m sure would be more than happy to look after the commissars for a fee. Hell, I’ll even give up my OR time for them. Assuming they even survive the experience it’ll be ages before they’ll be able to get out of bed to inflict their insanity on any more victims.
Actually, it’s worse than incompetence – it’s flat out arrogance.
There IS discrimination here, of course, based upon the educational institution that Mihaly got his accreditation from, but the Human Rights Act doesn’t protect people based upon the school they go to. The Act does protect people based upon their place of origin, however, and this adjudicator says that’s the same thing.
What turns a foolish decision into an incredibly arrogant one is the fact that this question has already been answered by a Judge of the Alberta Queen’s Bench. What this guy says, in almost these words, is that he knows the Court says place of education isn’t the same as place of origin, but other human rights adjudicators in Ontario and BC say it is, and he likes that answer better.
Incredible.
Yep … the HRCs all need to be cut off at the knees. PM Harper … are you listening?
Professional certifications are NONE of their business.
So, any protests? Any meaningful action? Alberta’s engineers shouting outside the HRC?
Nothing, eh? Take lots of it.
This HRC case demonstrates some people are too stupid and it is dangerous to allow them to practice their profession.
And I am not talking about Mihaly here.
I wish the APEGA would simply say: “No thanks, just let him pass the exam like everyone else.”
What are standards for anyway? I would say to protect the public. This is none of any HRC’s business.
Well Duh.
Competency is a violation of human rights.
How dare you judge one person to be more competent than another?
Obviously the trades are next, how dare the closed shop apprenticeship system decide who is competent to wire your house or install that boiler.
Qualifications are so hurtful.
Any person who accepts the pay of a Human Rights Tribunal is a vandal, deliberately trying to destroy society.
These parasites do intend to kill their host.
HRC= No rule of law.
Civilization does not exist in the presence of these kangaroo courts.
Thanks for that, John. So the guy didn’t show up for his exams, flunked the one he did show up for, never followed up on the required paper work, but knew how to show up in one of these kangaroo courts with a sob story, a pathetic look on his face, and told a load of BS which he got caught out on. Hey, judgement for the plaintiff! Reason be damned. I hope he’s involved in designing and building the new houses for these “judges”.
It’s BOTH!This is from the article in the Edmonton Journal:
“They told Mihaly he had to write three technical equivalency exams before he could be licensed here. He was also required to take the National Professional Practice Exam, a test on Canadian law and professional ethics, which all new engineers, including Canadian grads, must take.
Mihaly took the latter exam three times — and failed each time. He refused to take any of the technical tests. Since engineers from other European Union countries, such as France or Ireland aren’t require to write them, he argued he, a former resident of a EU member state, shouldn’t have to either.”
I have been a P.Eng. in Alberta since 1978. The National Practice exam is the easiest exam any engineer will ever face. I’m not saying that it’s a total piece of cake, but if that bozo couldn’t even pass THAT, he`s pretty pathetic. He refused to take the real technical competency exams.
This HRC interference has potential negative consequences for ANY profession, trade or job of any kind that requires any demonstrable competence. Don`t just worry about trusting the unidentified doctor in the emergency ward, or the pharmacist who fills your prescription; think about the electrician wiring your home, the mechanic fixing the brakes in your car, the list is practically endless.
This could also have negative effects on Canada`s credibility in the world market as a producer of any kind of manufactured product.
Red Allie is one of these guys. She has really put the Progressive back in the PC party of Alberta. This guy is her kind of people. So worldly. So enlightened. CINO (Canadian in Name (and paycheck) Only). We’re so lucky to be ruled by the Other!
He’s a Red Allie CINO.
I question whether the HRC’s actually do any investigations of the claims that are presented, or if they just have a group discussion and make their decision based on “feelings”.
A quick call to the alleged engineer’s home Country and university should clear up questions about his ability or lack of it. This should have been part of the HRC’s investigation, if they actually lower themselves to do that.
The incredible arrogance of the HRC in ordering the APEGA to investigate the man’s background is truly astounding,even for this outfit.
The man may very well be a engineering school dropout or failure over there,trying to bullshit his way into a good position over here.
I believe you are right. If someone dies due to Mihaly’s incompetence it would also put the HRC in a position of being sued in a real court. That would break new ground, but they are responsible for forcing a issue that’s none of their business.
You are spot on, and it is amazing that the majority of people still find acceptable the very existence of these kangaroo commissions and tribunals. Their very existence flies in the face of due process, actual laws and courts and the most basic freedoms.
I hope that the engineer association has the good sense to appeal this decision to a real court where it is sure to be thrown out. Allowing it to stand creates an extremely dangerous precedent. After all every single association representing professionals (doctors, lawyers, teachers etc.) is guilty of the same kind of discrimination: you must qualify in order to practise. Imagine that.
I find it hard to believe that Mr Mihaly is a good engineer. Engineering is mostly math; the formula for the load-bearing capability of an I-beam is the same in every country and every language. Perhaps he was shoved out the door at a communist university where it was more important to know Marxist diaclectics than the elasticity of metals?
Mihaly is an expert in “fuels and thermal energy”. I, for one, would prefer an engineer working in this area to be competent. That way the news headlines can be saved for things like “Canada Wins Hockey Gold!” and not “Town Rocked By Explosion!”
And APEGA is indeed appealing the decision.
Some of the best doctors in the world come from South Africa. Why should a South African doctor be compelled to pass Canadian exams before he can be licensed to practice medicine in Canada? Given the waiting lines at doctors offices they should be fast tracked into the practice since they are ready to hit the ground running.
Rizwan. You are kinda missing the point of Canada having its own professional bodies, self regulation and all that kind of stuff. If APEGA had any b*lls at all, they would tell Redford that the decision is being set aside for reasons of insanity.
I wonder if those people on the ‘human rights commission’ realize that they may have to drive under the overpass he designs, or work in the building on the foundation he spec’d out, or any other countless ways this guy could impact their lives?
Yeah, well in this case the South African doctor failed an engineering competency exam, if you think he should be allowed to practice then let him go at it on an design for you. You can do something similar with any medical practioners who fail a competency exam.
What occurred is not a debate about recognizing accreditation from various institutions outside the country (I think one would want to be selective in that).
Maybe the guy can design a new CBC highrise, or a new human rights office.
I think the way Canadians view accreditation needs revision. How can a Canadian-born and trained pharmacist working in BC not be fit to work in Ontario doing the exact same things? It makes no sense. My father (who had nearly forty years teaching experience by the time he retired) had to re-write teachers’ exams when he changed jobs in different provinces. Apparently teaching math in one province is completely different in another. Sometimes a person qualified to test him could not be found. My mother was a Commonwealth-educated, English-speaking nurse whose qualifications weren’t even looked at. I’m not saying that accreditation doesn’t matter at all (and in Mr. Mihaly’s case, HE is the one who is lacking and no human rights tribunal can say otherwise) but I think a lot of what goes on smacks of protectionism and money-grabbing (all those precious fees).
Social Engineering @ its Worst. The legislative responsibility is mute to Tribunal power. Why have elections for Government of the people for the people.
I read the complete case and found the last paragraph sort of valid (mentoring & training programs) The role of Professional Organizations MUST also involve mentoring policies.
The APEGA provided no evidence that they had policies to help current members meet or maintain proficiency. Why?
You know if the guy was becoming say a Lawyer then who cares if he can pass a test or not and let the Human Rights Tribunale have at her. But the guy building a bridge or building and deciding the tensile strength of the cement or steel to go in it well……
OMMAG: “Yep … the HRCs all need to be cut off at the knees. PM Harper … are you listening?”
I’m not a fan of either the Liberals or the NDP, but the Tories need a shake-up. They had fire when they scrapped the LGR, but since then they’ve been timid, terrified of doing anything that might offend someone. And pursuing that course just means you offend everyone.
The Senate scandal is a prime example. They should have seized upon the public outrage, said “Mistakes were made, we’re sorry, and you’re right to be infuriated. So, pass me one of your pitchforks and let’s talk Senate reform…” Instead, they dodge spared and obfuscated, pi$$ing off their base along with their opponents.
If the Tories had any stones left, they’d have gone after the HRCs long before now.
I’m with the HRC. They are missing the boat on a big one though.
Why should anyone with a foreign drivers license be forced to pass (or even take) a drivers test here? It’s racist!!!!
when I took the professional practice exam in a room of approximately 400 people – I’d guess 90 percent of them could barley comprehend basic english. When told sign in was at 1:15 dozens of people rushed to the front at 1:00 to ask if they could sign in. Next when told to line up at the desk with the letter starting their last name people were wandering around aimlessly trying to figure out where they should be. From there it got worse – when told they had to enter the room immediately after signing in dozens went to the bathroom and were told they had to sign in again. Finally when in the exam room when told they couldn’t leave until after the exam started people flooded to the door to take bathroom break. One guy even asked me if I could point him to his seat – since your seat number is the same as your ticket number this should have been easy – especially since his was the last empty seat in the room. I told him at the very least he should be able to find his own seat. He looked like he wanted to cry. These are the present and future engineers, geologists and geophysicists that will be working on wells and pipelines and bridges and your safety is in their hands.
A USA practicing Engineer MUST pass the FE exam. Period
The U of A provides Canadian graduating Engineers, wishing to practice in the USA, the FE Exam. What? They don’t require all Canadian graduating Engineers to pass the FE exam or equivalent
The Canadian APEGA can waive any or ALL exams, depending on your school tie, including FE. I not saying they discriminate, but something smells of the British Class System and its not competence.
Nice if they just treated everybody the same!
Phillip, this guy is coming out of the old komunist system, he needs to be tested.
The old Komunist was “who you know” more so that what you know.
Since Rizwan’s question wasn’t directly answered, I’ll do so. Many jurisdictions will recognize each others credentials. This is the case with the doctor coming from South Africa – there has been enough mutual experience and checks of requirements between the nations that we know that if someone comes from South Africa and was licenced as a doctor in South Africa, then they practice at a high enough level to practice in Canada. The case under discussion is not like this. It’s closer to someone coming over from the Sudan who says they attended medical school ten or more years ago who’s demanding the “right” to operate in the ER. When they asked him to prove his abilities and training with a test, he first failed, and then refused to write again.
I would not visit that doctor, I would not trust that engineer. Sorry, but your example doesn’t apply in this case.
I am another of Kate’s regular visiting engineers, and I didn’t have to write a competency test. I graduated out of a Canadian university and so the fact of my graduation meant I had had exposure to all of the items they’re concerned about, and enough of a knowledge base to pass my exams. The results of my ethics test showed that I knew enough about the law and obligations that come with the job that I could be trusted to know what the right thing and the wrong thing to do would be. If I do the wrong thing, the disciplinary board can take away my licence to practice.
I guess this is another example of the truth being no defense when it comes to putting ideology above everything. In the case of an engineer, one can’t think of a more objective examination as it involves principles which are universal. One either has the necessary knowledge to pass or one doesn’t. In a profession where a minimum level of competency is an absolute requirement discrimination against the stupid is essential. Only a moronic HRC would argue that this constitutes violation of the stupids human rights.
Someone who is foreign trained should have no difficulty, assuming they’re competent, in going back to the basics and refreshing their memory enough to pass an exam. I’ve never called myself an electrical engineer despite spending decades doing digital circuit design. That’s an area where I was self-taught and my only formal engineering education was a single course in circuit theory. Learned enough about Laplace transforms to help me out with analog circuit design and pass the exam, but I have nowhere near the theoretical education that the average electrical engineer has. I’ve worked with EE’s and had more practical experience than they did but back in the 1980’s there were no formal qualifications required to be both a hardware and software hacker.
Medicine is a different area as in Canada the fellowship exams are horrendous compared to the US which has far more objective exams. Canadian fellowship exams are based on the opinions of examiners as to whether the individual wanting to be a licensed specialist is, in their view, capable. It’s a far more subjective decision than in the US where it’s pass a standardized exam and do so every 10 years to prove your competency. There are a lot of S. African doctors in the interior of BC and the interior health region loves them as it can force them to stay as they’re only allowed to practice in one part of BC for the duration of their contract. US trained specialists where I work have flunked their fellowship exams in Canada despite being very skilled physicians and, if one were to launch a complaint about the system, it would be in the area of fellowship exams in Canada. The nice thing about being in a “remote” part of the province is that one is allowed a lot more latitude than if one were in Vancouver.
At least, in engineering, it’s far easier to determine an individuals competency than it is in medicine. Where I work we’ve had some very competent internists burn out because they’re just not used to dealing with the caseload in a very underdoctored area. Here the measure of competency is not their knowledge, but their ability to triage patients and perform 3-4x the number of consults that they’re used to seeing in a day.
While I despise credentialism as it discriminates against the self-taught, for a scientific discipline it’s quite simple to construct an objective examination to test an individuals knowledge. As long as the exam has some relevance to the field in which the individual purports to be competent in, this is a very reasonable way of assessing whether a person is qualified to call themselves an expert in a particular field. If one doesn’t like the system, then one is free to start ones own company and I can’t think of anyone less formally qualified than Steve Jobs who ended up running Apple. Wozniak was an EE, but primarily a hacker and Apple is an example of how the creative can bypass credentialism.
Mihaly is an example of the destructive effects of socialism where individuals feel entitled because they have managed to bribe the right people in their country of origin and believe that the credentials they thus obtained should be recognized in a country that requires objective assessment of a person’s knowledge. Curious that HRC’s haven’t taken on any cases involving “discrimination” against foreign trained physicians and it might have something to do with the individuals in the HRC’s not wanting to see an incompetent physician. Perhaps the best thing doctors could do would be to refuse to accept any member of an HRC as a patient and that might lead to a rapid atrophy of HRC’s.