49 Replies to “Pension Plans For Koolaid Drinkers”

  2. Since government employees pretend to work the government should pretend to pay them. (a variation of an East Bloc cold war era joke)

  3. I wasn’t born a public servant. I applied for a job one day like millions of other people who needed work. I have paid 7.25% of my gross earnings into this plan for 34 years whether I wanted to or not. The government took 30 billion out of it ten years ago. Well, actually they never put their share in but took it out anyway. 61 and not retired yet and vote conservative despite my commie union. I should feel bad? It’s not like I’m going to get rich on it.
    And Rizwan … stick it. You couldn’t do my job without a minimum of ten years training. What do you do? Blow winos for beer money or just pretend to?

  4. I too worked fore the Feds and well remember Jean Cretin stealing billions out of the pension plan.
    There is a lot wrong with the Public Service ( I could write a book on how disfunctional it is) however I have to agree with Yeah…well’s comment.
    The retort to Rizwan was utterly uncalled for though.

  5. Yeah Well… I feel for your plight but have no pension myself. My family should begger itself so you won’t have to?
    You’ve been lied to, and I’ve been robbed by your employer my entire life.
    Things that can’t continue…won’t

  6. Actually, the problem is far worse. Nobody in the baby-boom generation will get a pension, anything close to what they’re counting on.
    None of the schemes in the video will pay out more than a fraction of what was promised, if that. Private pension savings will be confiscated, as in Argentina, if the banks charged with taking care of the money don’t fail in the meantime. The public pensions will be defaulted on (as in Greece) or hyperinflated away (as in Rhodesia).
    The debts and equities with which the private pension plans are backed are as much a claim on the productivity of future generations as the government debt that finances the taxpayer-subsidized plans. To put it another way, all of these schemes are a way of seeing that someone else’s child pays to take care of you in your old age. That way, you needn’t be stuffed to have any yourself, much less see that they ever learn an honest trade or marry a man who has one.
    If you are a fool who has said in his heart there is no God, and if you have more faith in the Government of Canada or the Toronto-Dominion Bank can be depended on to provide in your old age than your own flesh and blood (and why would you? you haven’t spoken to your own parents in years), why waste your youth changing diapers? Your wife wants a cute thing to play with? Buy her a cat!
    Even if the wife insists on having children, if only to shut her own mother up about it, why bother fighting with the little rotters over their pipe dreams of studying gay African literature when they ought to be looking for jobs or husbands? Yes! Please! Let them “follow their dreams!” No skin off your backside as long as it gets them out of your hair!
    Well, you know what? When push comes to shove the Government of Canada and the Toronto-Dominion Bank will tell you to drop dead. And if you don’t have children able (and willing!) to support you in times of trouble, that’s exactly what you’ll do, years before your time.
    Couldn’t be stuffed to have children? Great. I just hope you’re aware you’ve had your reward—and that you’ve thought through who’ll pay for your diapers, never mind change them.

  7. Retroactively, changing public service pension plans to eliminate the unfunded liability is necessary, and one of the measures required for Canada to avoid ending up like Greece.
    How pension plans end up with unfunded liability requires the actions of, at least, two irresponsible parties.
    A large percentage of pensioners will be working into their retirement years just to survive.
    However, this is if the government reduces the number of unskilled third world immigrants.
    If it doesn’t the pensioners will stand on street corners selling pencils and iPhones accessories or knocking on your door offering to shovel your sidewalk in exchange for food.

  8. On a huddle, cgh, Occam, LAS, The Phantom, Knight 99, ET and me could come up with a program in this regard in about five minutes, if that’d be allowed under the rules;
    Tim Hudak has a great plan: sell the commercializable assets of the Ontario government to the public sector pension funds, while maintaining the single-payer health care system.
    Sort of a Margaret Thatcher moment, if I’m not completely out of line…

  9. Since class warfare seems to be in vogue lately, I think it’s time for overtaxed private sector workers to rebel against the overpaid, underworked government class. Canadians will holler loudly at the slightest suggestion that something might be unfair, but somehow this issue is in that forbidden area where decent folks just don’t go. Those same Canadians will happily pay their exorbitant taxes and get crap in return, but let their bank put a two dollar surcharge on their monthly statement…

  10. Minimum of 10 years of training to “work” for the Ministry of Blog Posting, Tourette Division !?!?
    Tax cut please!

  11. rich, what do you do? You seem to be blog posting today.
    Rizwan, I apologize. I’m a little touchy about some of this crap.

  12. The video makes it look like government workers are leeches on the poor downtrodden of today’s society. A lot of folks seem to forget that our military and RCMP are part of that despicable bunch. The nerve of them risking their lives for crappy pay and the promise of a pension when they get too old to tote a rifle, dig a foxhole and no longer of use. Oh yeah, they also paid taxes like everyone else.
    It’s the same Aholes that figure that the rich folks who actually pay most of the taxes should pay even more because they were more successful than the unwashed masses.
    Don’t blame me because my career choice came with a pension plan. It ain’t much because I didn’t get paid that much but don’t try to change the rules after the fact.

  13. To my mind, the vast majority of problems in the public service can be placed squarely on PSAC and the wimps in government that are scared witless to confront them.
    Having said that, when I signed up to work for them I entered into a contract. Part of that contract included a pension plan. I didn’t create it and had no input into it’s operation. I didn’t count on it as the vagaries of governments is well known. I know I’m very fortunate to have a decent pension plan but make no apologies for it and will not be made to feel guilty for having it.

  14. I burst out laughing at the “ten years training” bit. Does that include grade school?
    It has been my personal experience that the employees of the federal government are either unable or unwilling to explain what exactly it is that they do. I have concluded that it is not very much, and they are afraid to confess that because their pension would be taken away. It’s always about the pensions.

  15. Yeah, I’m posting on this blog today during work hours, care to write me a cheque for it?

  16. Great video!
    According to Statscan we have “3.2 million people working in hundreds of public sector organizations at three levels of government”.
    The pension problem is real. The private sector has moved away from defined benefit plans for obvious reasons.
    Asking government to move in the same direction is reasonable & prudent.

  17. I get the same crap from my teacher relatives – “I put 10% of my salary blah blah blah”. Yes and I matched it so they got a 100% return. And they all retired before 55. I feel sorry for you guys above who planned on a certain pension, but if someone promises you a skittle crapping unicorn, you can’t expect unlimited candy for life. The public service and their pensions cannot be larger than the wealth creation sector. It is unsustainable. Period.

  18. I agree Ron.
    Kakola, I would be ready, willing and able to explain to you in detail what I did and was responsible for whilst a public servant. I would also disclose my salary and benefit package as well. I’m not a cheerleader for the public service by any means but I have a feeling some people have a skewed view of those employed there.

  19. On this from my experience I have to agree with Yeah.. and Original Rick. No matter how great the regular federal public service pensions may appear they pale in comparison with those of the politicians at all levels of government. I do agree that the way the federal public service pension is set up must change, just as those of teachers, nurses and everyone covered by a public service union. At the same time I suggest that the outrage be directed at our politicians with their gold plated pensions, as that is where the change needs to begin. Let us not reduce the need for sound economics to class warfare.

  20. I’m with Texas Canuck on this one. I was flying in a war zone (almost 200 missions) when I was older than any member of the RCAF who flew on operations in WWII. I did that with pay frozen for six years (thanks Libs) and Martin stealing $27billion from our pension fund. Also, my OAS and CPP are clawed back out of my military pension so, despite paying, I never get to collect more than the military pension. And yes, when I retired I was too old to wield a rifle and who would hire a superannuated “death technician” anyway?
    All that said, the civil service side get the benefits without sticking their necks into hostile airspace (or on land mines or in hostile waters) and can generally work until they are 65 pushing paper. The retirement age should definitely be reviewed for the civvies.

  21. I think the point of the clip is that public service pensions are richer than private ones and I would agree and this is partially reflected in earlier retirement ages. I would include the federal and provincial politicians in the category of too rich pensions.
    Current civil service pensions should not be reduced, although as we see in Europe it may happen due to national insolvency, but this should be fixed to be as actuarialy sound as possible and something the nation can afford. This would mean that the governments stop caving to everything the unions want.

  22. Pension plans should be banned. They are basically a way to get employees to stick around. Take some of their money off them now and promise to give it back to them thirty years in the future. What could possibly go wrong?
    I used to work as an electrician and was a member of the IBEW pension. I stopped working as an electrician about ten years ago I was offered the option of staying in the plan and getting an annuity at age 65m or taking the money out of the plan. I opted to get the annuity. About a year ago I got a letter saying the plan was underfunding and the union had decided to kick out all members who were not actively contributing, and they would only get 50 percent of their money back because the plan was only 50% funded. I was ripped off for about 50k. If we didn’t have a pension plan that money would have been in my pocket every Friday and I could have looked after my own old age.
    Ban pensions. Make employers pay their workers now, not promise to pay them thirty years in the future. How many workers stay in crappy jobs that they hate because they don’t want to take a hit on their pension by going looking for greener pastures?

  23. there mI wuz lookin for a good example of OXYMORON and I see this thread=====”work for the government???”…great example:-))))

  24. I agree with one of the biggest progressive’s of the 20th century, FDR.
    Under no circumstances should civil servants be allowed to unionize. All public sector unions should be decertified.
    The incestuous taxpayer funded pay/pensions in return for voting blocks is moral and financial suicide for private sector taxpayers and the economy in general. ANY public sector job that can’t be shown to be essential, should be privatized.
    That is all.

  25. Doesn’t matter how hard the parasites work, or don’t work, they should remember that they are wealth consumers, not wealth creators. They are a drag on the rest of us who are productive.
    Those in essential services, defense etc, exempted…for the most part.
    Nobody gives a damn about their little pension problems. The proof is in where people would choose to go for good service, a gov’t agency for whatever ‘service they provide, or a restaurant where there is actual ‘service’.

  26. Texas Canuck, government employees don’t pay taxes like everyone else. All their wages come from the public treasury and are an expense item. No actual income taxes are paid to the treasury.
    A private sector company must generate the full $100 of an employee’s pay with $25 going to the government as income taxes. The public sector employee receives a pay of $75 with no actual increase to the public treasury from the remaining $25. Plus the public treasury must pay all benefits and pension contributions.
    The absolute worst political decision opposed by even FDR was to unionize the public employees. As these unions purpose is to expand the bureaucracy, its wages and benefits without the controls of the capitalist system it has led to an economic disaster.

  28. Good video but not all civic employees get even the second option. No one should be getting the second option , but most clerical (the most useless) do. In my pension they do not, I repeat do not Match me dollar for dollar or even half. I think its 10% out of every dollar . Of course I really have to work as well for it which is only proper. Outside work mostly, also paying a Union that is worthless , as only a stepping stone for the NDP hogs. That money I could use to supplement my retirement that I wont see till 68. Mean while politicians not only get golden handshakes, bonuses, plus going away money. They are indexed as well.

  29. Shame when you made a contract with the govt, that you trusted their good faith, Eh.
    Income Tax temporary to pay for WW1. GST Temporary to pay off debt. Taxed between 30-50% all these years, but I get Healthcare and Govt services in trade. Honest for sure. Waiting endlessly for a service is different from denying the service, how?
    As I am taxed at increasing rates as my productivity/income increases, I have chosen to reduce my income.
    Why should I work harder to gain less?
    With govt running in excess of 25% its all down hill from here. The math is simple.
    The national debt does not represent an investment in our future, it is the overspending on an unaffordable lifestyle, that we are trying to pawn off on the next generation.

  30. Just for comparison, in the U.S., all federal government employees since 1986 are enrolled in a “defined contribution” plan which is really an investment plan for stocks and bonds. People hired by the federal government prior to 1984 had a choice to stay in a defined pension plan or enroll in the defined contribution plan, everyone else had to accept the change. Some stayed in the old plan, some didn’t. At this point there are only a few employees left contributing to the old plan as most have retired or moved on.
    In the U.S., the “defined pension” plans still exist for state and local government employees in most states. This is one big reason that California is such a mess. Michigan started copying the federal move in about 1999 or thereabouts but still has plenty of the same problems described in the clip.
    George Bush proposed changing U.S. Social Security to something like a defined contribution pension but it got no traction.

  32. “And Rizwan … stick it. You couldn’t do my job without a minimum of ten years training. What do you do? Blow winos for beer money or just pretend to?
    Posted by: Yeah Well … at December 4, 2012 2:29 PM ”
    If you work for the guberment,ten SECONDS has you qualified.Unless you are a Doctor,hard scientist,or a tradesperson,a flea could do your job.It took you ten years to figure out how to be a parasite? And just when did you stop blowing winos?

  33. Those that work in government service, at any level, need to recognize that both sides of their check are paid for by those outside of government. The side they get to keep, and the side they contribute to their pension, and the side they say they pay to taxes with…. it’s all from Private Individuals.
    My sister works for the federal government in Revenue Canada, and has quite angrily told me to “LOOK AT MY PAY STUB, I PAY TAXES TOO”. Completely blind, that the other side of her check is entirely paid for by private industry. My father worked for Sask-Tel for 34 years, and has been retired now, and in good health for another 28 years, all with an indexed pension paid by taxpayers. He said, “not everyone’s smart enough to work for the government”. and.. “Not everyone knows how to invest their money safely for their retirement”.
    Christmas is a real blast at their house. Actually, everyday is Christmas for those folks. National Green Hour?, on the date everyone is supposed to turn their lights out for an hour is special, they all gather at the front door and stare at the neighbors to see who’s in compliance.
    This idiocy of government employees having their pensions paid for by private individuals, and private health care being forbidden in Canada / single payer only, will lead to Canada becoming just like Greece is now. My government side family members all have said, “if those greeks would just pay their taxes they’d be fine”.
    They love California too.

  34. A pension is essentially a broad savings account shared by many people as long as they (or in some cases their spouses too) survive. All pensions should be contracted voluntarily, like the RRSPs.
    There is only one solution to the pension “underfunding” problem: increase economic productivity enough to cover pension liabilities. That means large-scale deregulation and the privatization of the vast majority of the economy.
    Have you ever noticed how everything government touches soon becomes “underfunded”? Health care, the justice system, housing, you name it. The proper function of government is to provide a justice system, but government improperly gets into too many activities that drain tax dollars away from its proper functions.
    Is it not rather odd that the biggest leeches off the productive have some of the biggest and best-guaranteed pensions, yet they (or their unions) oppose the only measures that can ensure that they will all actually receive their full pensions? That is, unless their real interest is not the members of their union or their pensions, but the destruction of capitalism, i.e., Marxism via Cloward-Piven, which is basically an attempt to load the last straw that finally breaks the camel’s back. If the economy goes down, the enablers of the collapse will go down with it.
    It is time to end public sector unions. Change the Charter of Rights if necessary. But it’s time to end most of the activities of the public sector anyway.
    Not all government workers are the same. There are the police, military and courts, who perform necessary services that cannot for the most part be privatized. There are infrastructure builders, who are productive but who mostly should be privatized (teachers broadly fall into this category). But then there are the regulators, who are paid not only for not producing anything but for actively hindering the production of goods and services. These positions should be abolished ASAP.
    The real cause of the decline of defined benefit (DB) plans in favour of defined contribution (DC) ones is the hindered productivity caused by left-wing politicians and their economic policies.
    Anyone who wants to expand the CPP while clamping down on private sector pensions plans (for example, opposing the new PRPPs) is forgetting a fundamental rule of investing: “don’t put all your eggs in one basket”.

  35. I am a Federal Civil Servant myself so let me weigh in. I have paid over 6% of my wages for 24 years into the Civil Service Super-Annuation Plan (CSSAP) in addition to CPP contributions.
    When the CSSAP plan was set up in the early Trudeau era, like every scheme of his, the money deducted from paycheques was directed into the general revenue coffers and immediately spent by the government. The government got money from UI, CPP and CSSAP so they could spend more and buy votes immediately; the can was kicked down the road for future generations of taxpayers to pay for. This is why the shortfall exists; the Liberal government spent the contributions rather than investing them. Paul Martin (who was a much better finance minister than a PM) addressed the CPP shortfall issue by drastically hiking the CCP rates and setting up an independent investment board to oversee the fund. Harper has started to address the CSSAP shortfall. Since he can’t rewrite contracts from the past, new hires will be in a defined contribution plan.
    As to the sniping back and forth, let me add that I did not look at the public service as a chance to gouge my fellow countrymen, I was just looking for a job, like everyone else I work with. There are very smart, very dedicated people in my division and our entire purpose is to make sure that Joe or Jane Canuck does not die in a plane crash along with the other passengers. I believe that we earn our pay from the taxpayers. Since there is no demand to shutdown Transport Canada I would guess that the taxpayers agree. To qualify for my position would take ten years of study and hard work, and by the way the pass-fail mark on aviation maintenance exams is 70%. With all due respect, most of the general populace could not do my job, there are only a few in the aviation community who can.
    By the way, this was typed during my 30 minute lunch break, during which I answered the phone and my emails.

  36. Good for you Al. I think the main beef people have with the civil service in general is their unions that would like to remake Canada into a socialist state. I have dealt with bureaucrats most of my life in one capacity or another and the civil service does have a propensity toward empire building and sometimes loose sight of the fact that they work for the people and not the other way around. Transport Canada people we worked with in the early 1980s were great, it was the politicians that were the slimy fish. However, Oceans and Fisheries had lately become an anchor around the roadway maintenance efforts of prairie municipal councils and hopefully the new Navigable Waters Act being put through parliament will take this anchor away.
    As far as the current topic is concerned, in my opinion, the civil service pensions should be sustainable and affordable as well as in line with the better private pension plans people can buy into. They should also be at third party arms length from the money grubbing politicians.

  38. Al_in_Ottawa @ 11:45 a.m.: “When the CSSAP plan was set up in the early Trudeau era, like every scheme of his, the money deducted from paycheques was directed into the general revenue coffers and immediately spent by the government. The government got money from UI, CPP and CSSAP so they could spend more and buy votes immediately; the can was kicked down the road for future generations of taxpayers to pay for. This is why the shortfall exists …”
    Maybe we could ask Kim Justin-il for his opinion on this before he becomes Liberal leader.
    and: “… our entire purpose is to make sure that Joe or Jane Canuck does not die in a plane crash along with the other passengers”
    Transport Canada investigates plane crashes. Very possibly this would fall under the “police” function of the state.

  39. Texas Canuck said: “The nerve of them risking their lives for crappy pay …..Oh yeah, they also paid taxes like everyone else.”
    Tex, I understand and appreciate the value that many civil servants bring to the job. But there’s no denying that while you felt you were paying taxes, you were merely ‘flowing through’ the taxes paid by folks like me that became your wages. Your job didn’t create new wealth. That’s not to diminsh the value of service, only that it doesn’t produce ‘value added’ that results in greater GDP.
    What I have a problem with is RCMP members and teachers already on fully indexed defined benefit pension plans who go back to work as either ‘auxillary’ members or ‘on call teachers’. I also resent the system that deliberately moves members into higher paying positions for their final working years in order to ensure that they max the amount of pension for the rest of their lives.
    Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen. I’ve got a number of friends who openly brag how everyone ‘inside’ learns to game the system and how they’ve benefited from doing so.
    I have a relative in his early 40’s who manages the parks and rec swimming programs for a medium size municipality – he makes over $120K a year with fabulous benefits and tons of time off and will likely retire at 55 with a defined benefit plan, set for life.
    Where’s the justice in that when the poor schlubs working in retail or running a small business have to hand over uncosncionable amounts of income tax to subsidize his lifestyle?
    When I took up public sector wages/benefits up with my local Council members I was accused of engaging in a ‘race to the bottom’ and wanting public sector workers to work for minimum wage. That’s how out of touch our elected betters really are.

  40. Pay their pensions or let the economy colapse. Working wages keep the country going and keep the top 1% where they are.

  41. If all you farmers went broke there would hardly be a ripple. We wage earners keep farmers going not the other way around. You need my taxes and pensions.

  43. Kate take a 50% cut in income. All you half wit bloggers on here take a 50% cut in pay. Would you still be so cocky? You talk like you’re making big bucks. I don’t think you are.

  44. You’re jealous because they have a pension and you don’t. Most civil servants make a living. Not a lot of 6 figure union jobs. You are full of baloney.

  45. How much do all the ministerial ass’t make here in Sask and in the federal gov’t make. That’s different they’re your buddies. What is your gross pay for a year Ms Kate. It must be pretty good if you have time to play around on this blog.

  46. Most of you on here don’y qualify for a decent job and the way you talk have poor paying jobs with no benifits. And whose fault is that? Blame your employer. The richest civil servants are farmers. 6 billion paid out by my taxes to them in a “free market” for their losses due to flooding. What is their income? Big secret.

  48. You support the rich and powerful and have nothing. Whose fault is that. Your tories are in power. You have low wages and no benifits and blame people who do. Get real.

  49. How much do you contribute to RSP’s? Not much me thinks. How about Kate? Like all farmers they’re maxed out. The Tories have been in 6 years how much have they done for you? Nothing for farmers. The Sask taxpayers have did it all for farmers. Because you have nothing you expect the rest of us to have nothing. How long can the system last with low wages and no benefits,

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