Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus’ health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled. – The Journal of Medical Ethics
Via The Blaze, h/t john g
Update: The Editor responds.
I guess the maxim of “Do no harm” has completely been thrown out the window.
Absolutely, ‘after-birth abortion’ should be permissible. As long as it’s done in a ‘humane’ manner. We are not monsters, after all.
Newborns and, in fact, children of all ages can present significant challenges to the well-being of their parents. I really can’t see any moral agrument against abortion right up to the time that the parasitic little clump of cells can wrestle the scissors from the doctor’s hand on its own and go get a job.
By showing that (1) philosophers do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that a philosopher is a potential person is morally irrelevant and (3) the rantings of philosophers are not always in the best interest of actual people, I argue that ‘after-birth abortion’ of philosophers should be permissible.
Philosophy: The derivation of convoluted and logically dubious excuses for really bad ideas.
I’m hearing “a progressive’s right to choose” in the background of this, sure to be upgraded to “a Canadian’s right to choose” as the culture war grows more strident. (Canadian as used in the LPC lexicon of Liberal voter)
Age is irrelevant not only should we kill the unborn and kill grandma, we should simply be allowed to kill anyone who pisses us off. Kill, kill, kill. We’ve come a long way baby.
One abortion is a tragedy. A million is a statistic.
Well I suppose we could start the post birth abortions by eliminating the dimwits that concocted this ‘philosophy’.
Once the moral gate of killing humans has been breached, why not extend it to the point where it will actually benefit mankind?
Post-natal abortion up until puberty would allow society to weed out its weakling boys, small-breasted girls, and those with a predisposed liberal tendency to save the vermin, but kill the people.
Absolutely amazing, and disgusting!
When I look at the the photos showing thetwo philosophers that came up with this concept, the first thought to cross my mind is “Ok they appear to be in their mid-30s, how would they feel if we decided termination of both of them about 1800 weeks post conception would be best for them and their parents.”
Maybe the authors should take their own advice…we can call it ‘self abortion’.
Because you know ‘self-abortion’ may improve their self esteem. After all, you can never have enough Nietzsche nihilism…
And now Monty Python’s Philosopher Song
“Immanuel Kant was a real pissant Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There’s nothing Nietzsche couldn’t teach ya'[ ]’Bout the raising of the wrist.SOCRATES, HIMSELF, WAS PERMANENTLY PISSED…”
Oh to Hell with it, say why dont’ we kill them ALL? Once they’ve piled them higher and deeper you get a PhD!!
Fascism…hey what a concept dudes…like its never been done before.
Because when Nietzsche raises his wrist its more than likely to carry a Luger…other than that guys great job.
On consideration, pun intended, PERISH THE THOUGHT.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
I dunno. There’s something faintly Swiftian about the whole thing to me.
If it’s satire, then the authors fooled a 38yr old medical journal that charges $212/yr for a paper subscription.
I’m bemused by those who vehemently oppose abortion and yet promote war(legalized mass murder)- IOW
sacrifice, slaying, smiting and smoting real or imagined enemies as quoted and glorified in the Buy-Bull.
From a Libertarian POV all humanity has the basic negative right to be left alone. That leaves us to ponder when the fetus becomes sentient. There’s no easy answer to this dichotomy – both have the same inherent unalienable right to life and liberty.
Evidently harp seal pups have a greater claim to life than your own baby.
Paul,
Do you ever expect to become sentient?
Some people are just beyond feeling sorry for…sorry God.
“the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.”
If we had been able to put a .30-30 round through Mengele’s skull back in 1936 or so…
“Licences to have babies incidentally is something that I got in trouble for some years ago for suggesting even in Canada that this might be necessary at some point, at least some restriction on the right to have a child.”
Maurice Strong.
THe good News:
The Canadian freak David Suzuki may qualify as an Odorous Pissant that may now be post birth aborted, using a rusty sardine can lid.
CBC coverage @11
A philosopher in his mid-thirties? He’s not old enough to think about ANYTHING other than Transformers, the newest ipod, and how to get laid this weekend when his parents leave the house.
Surprising the progressive elites remain so cautious.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to eliminate the non progressive non elite surplus and useless
of all ages under a five year rolling goal rather than just forbidden class infants and the aged?
When it comes to population control, shouldn’t everyone outside the elites also be kept on their toes and out
of mischief by random eliminations as well as the logical obvious ones for those who can no longer keep up?
Two things:
1) Scar nails it when he says age should not have anything to do with it. Technically, anytime “after-birth” is valid, be it thirty something or three.
2) These philosophers have never watched any sci-fi. Logan’s Run and the myriad of other movies and shows clearly indicate that, the prime directive not withstanding, scheduled termination of life is frowned upon.
First they bumped off the fetuses and I did nothing because I had already been born.
Then they bumped off the babies and I did nothing because I was grown up.
Then they bumped off the sick, the lame and the insane and I did nothing because I was healthy.
Then they bumped off the old folks and I did nothing because I was young…
While I am totally pro-life, I would ask those who are not, what the hell’s the difference anyway? Appearances?
Well I am appalled…..
Paul…the definition of murder…to kill with malice aforethought…..a crime…illegal.
War is not legalised mass murder…..It is a legal activity (defined by the Geneva Accords) hence not murder…It is inflicting casualties on the enemy….as defined by the Accords…including defining legal combatants.
I never took a Hypocratic oath….
However, Back in the day I had the duty of keeping some folks alive while they were in the serious business of inflicting casualties on the enemy. A definite conflict but somehow it was resolved…..
After a traffic incident, a few years past, where in the aftermath, I was the only one present, who had the sand to walk over an check a mangled auto for signs of life/death…..my reaction….”We’ve got a live one.”….would indicate I came through the process on the side of life.
I don’t think that’s philosophical….but a rather logical conclusion.
At this point…each morning I awaken…is a good morning….because it beats the alternative.
I have to defend Philosophy to a point.
(dropped out after 3 semesters in 1997)
((seriously SDA I’m not trolling or kidding when I say I’ve been around the block and through the grinder a few times.))
Only $50 000 of student loans to figure out what I didn’t want. Cheap. 10 years paying back every last cent? Not so much.
So dear friends that I’ve never met, dwight philosophy.
God might exist. Or God might not exist.
God is not a man or a womyn or a worm or a fish.
Men are stupid and fallible, women are just as stupid and fallible, they just refuse to admit it.
9.999 times out of 10 hippies manage to butcher a message from a smart guy like Bertrand Russell into-
NO NUKES NO NUKES NO NUKES NO NUKES
The guy had nothing against power plants, he just didn’t like having an ICBM pointed at his cottage.
The most intelligent Philosophers I personally studied under were John Woods and Ken Kubara.
One told me that Philosophers who obsess about God end up two ways – either bearded bitter douchebags or church leaders.
The other told me that Philosophers are not in demand because nobody just wants to sit down and think something through to a conclusion anymore.
dwright
Simple logic dictates that a fetus is a human being in the physical formation process. It begins when there is a heart beat. To kill that life is murder, but then doctors have been getting away with murder for a very long time.
Progressives do not employ logic in their philosophies because their ‘feelings’ are more important and get in the way of clear thinking.
That is the flaw or the mental disorder that we have heard about to often. Liberalism is a mental disorder that impedes the use of logic.
There is no answer to this dilemma, people will continue to abort if they want to … they will continue to take drugs if they want to etc. Logic dictates that we all back off and stop trying to force people to do or not do what others think they should or should not do. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF FREEDOM …. THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE … LIKE IT OR NOT.
Post held?
I used to be a Philosophy major before I dropped out. That took me 10 minutes to type!!!!!
WTF
Ed: Believe it or not dwright, I have work to do. Said work doesn’t include monitoring the junk comments. Usually I just select all, delete. Feel fortunate I actually bothered with yours. For future reference, maybe avoid words like ‘douch’ and ‘loans’ and maybe your valued comments will make it to the site.
On second thought typing out $50000 worth of so called higher education in 10 min.?
better just link to something useful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUgwM1Ky228&ob=av2e
This is sickening, but ultimately a good thing. It inadvertently reveals the mentality of abortion.
BTW, it was a the philosopher George Grant who provided one of the arguments that changed my mind regarding abortion. He said it wasn’t necessary to argue about what the fetus was at conception, but instead focus on what it would be if it wasn’t killed.
And besides, a lot of you SDA regulars are philosophers whether you like it or not. (That was a compliment…)
Not all libertarians are pro-abortion. Personally, I cannot understand how anyone can see a fetus in an ultrasound or a newborn baby and *not* recognize it as a person. So, by extension, how can it not be a person at conception.
Of course, the state being in control of reproduction is a greater evil than abortion, IMO. Today it may be pro-lifers making the rules for others but tomorrow it may be population control environmentalists imposing their will. Better birth control methods and education are still the safer (but imperfect) bet.
“but ultimately a good thing”
I meant publishing the article was a good thing, not the idea contained in it.
While I’m generally a big fan of austro-libertarian (anarcho-capitalist) Murray Rothbard, I had a lot of trouble with this!
The Ethics of Liberty
It’s not hard to see why some folks consider purist libertarians a bit nuts.
Blaming that on “philosophers” is as wise as blaming tax fraud on “accountants”.
You can equally find philosophers who will hold that not only is infanticide immoral, but so’s abortion. Hell, you can find ones who’ll go Full Catholic and say contraception is immoral. And every vaguely plausible position in between those extremes.
(Indeed, the only reason this got pointed out is that it’s “transgressive” to suggest that infanticide is not immoral, these days.
Historically, well, it’s not so controversial.)
The problem, if there is one, is taking something as true because “a philosopher said it”, not that philosophers are all fools*.
(*They pretty much are, but that’s irrelevant.
Full disclosure: My BA is in philosophy.)
Click the ‘Author Affiliations’ in the abstract link Sigivald.
Well it looks like this practitioner has taken the philosophers recommendations to heart…or should I say to the back of the neck.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/19/abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-charged-with-8-counts-of-murder/
DA: Pa. Abortion Doctor Killed 7 Babies With Scissors
PHILADELPHIA — A doctor whose abortion clinic was described as a filthy, foul-smelling “house of horrors” that was overlooked by regulators for years was charged Wednesday with murder, accused of delivering seven babies alive and then using scissors to kill them.
Dr. Kermit Gosnell was also charged with murder in the death of a woman who suffered an overdose of painkillers while awaiting an abortion.
In a nearly 300-page grand jury report filled with ghastly, stomach-turning detail, prosecutors said Pennsylvania regulators ignored complaints of barbaric conditions at Gosnell’s clinic, which catered to poor, immigrant and minority women in the city’s impoverished West Philadelphia section.
Prosecutors called the case a “complete regulatory collapse.”
“Pennsylvania is not a Third World country,” the district attorney’s office declared in the report. “There were several oversight agencies that stumbled upon and should have shut down Kermit Gosnell long ago.”
Gosnell, 69, was arrested and charged with eight counts of murder in all. Nine of Gosnell’s employees – including his wife, a cosmetologist who authorities say performed abortions – also were charged.
Prosecutors said Gosnell made millions of dollars over three decades performing thousands of dangerous abortions, many of them illegal late-term procedures. His clinic had no trained nurses or medical staff other than Gosnell, a family physician not certified in obstetrics or gynecology, prosecutors said.
Paul,
Your argument is seriously flawed.
Let us start with your premise that all humanity has the negative right to be left alone. I suspect that what you mean is that each individual human (or each member of humanity) has the negative right to be left alone (otherwise it reads like the human race should be free from the tyranny of aliens).
The question then becomes, at what point is the fetus (a) human and (b) individual. That question is remarkably and verifiably trivial to determine. It happens at the point of conception. At this moment the fetus is human, which can be verified by checking its DNA (or we can look at the parentage and make a reasonable guess). The fetus is also an individual. Its DNA is distinct from both its parents. It is, biologically a different organism than its mother.
Since in the libertarian world view, the government exists principally to ensure that individuals are protected from other individuals, then it is unjust for the government to authorize one individual to take the life of another whether by war (referring to your initial comment) or in any other way. I’m not a libertarian but Judge Napalitano is and he does a much better job than I (I’ve mostly cribbed him) — http://youtu.be/lA_Yl_JCdFg?t=9m20s
The issue of sentience, ultimately, is meaningless (yes I checked wikipedia to augment some of the details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience).
In the first place, its immeasurable. Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences. We don’t have any objective measure of subjective things. Some philosophers believe that we will never understand it, others that eventually it will be possible to investigate it scientifically. So as a matter of principle, we cannot TODAY measure sentience in any objective way (a typical requirement for just laws) so there is no one who is objectively sentient. Despite this fact no one will deny the sentience of an individual they meet in person and thanks to the Loebner Prize, no one can guarantee the sentience of anyone they meet online.
But lets look at a much LOWER bar for sentience than having subjective experiences. Animal Rights activists have achieved many protections for animals arguing animals are sentient (and thus deserve protection under law) because the are capable of feeling pleasure and pain. Unborn children do most certainly experience pleasure and pain, which is why if they have to go prenatal surgery, for example, they are anesthetized.
Philosophy is pointless, except that everyone has has a worldview and good philosophy allows us to evaluate our philosophy to ensure its not contradictory. Bad philosophy gives us contradictions like Paul wants us to believe. Good philosophy does not.
Sp while birth rates of all non whites sky rockets , due to there firtility rates and yes the values of life they put on having babies even if they grow up and are oppressed and there noses are cut off or there vaginas are sewn shut to prevent them from sinning,
the white western caucaisian cannot extinguish itself fast enough our birth rates are plumetting below even the basic replacement rate , we are also slaughtering more and more of our unborn in the name of you name it.
You knwo i am christian i have my values deeply seeded in the bible and all of its teachings so i oppose abortions and all the other terrible inventions of humans , but it really bothers me that even the lefties cannot see the perfect storm brewing, there are less than 300million white people left on earth there are over a billion blacks,there are over a billion aisians,chinease so on and so forth, there are over a billion indians as in east indians, not sure what to call them , and the number of whites includes even the middle eastern throwbacks , saudis,iranians kuwaitis so on and so forth.
In canada there was 110k abortions last year , alberta over then ext 5-10 years is projecting up to a 250k shortage of skilled workers , as posted earlier today on here saskatchewan is looking for about 100k of skilled workers….how can we continue this ? and who is going to take over for whitey after we self terminate ?
we talk about how little value is on life in places like africa ,middle east, china ….but look at us and i know there are many here who disagree with abortion but disagreeing with it does nothing to prevent it . so really how much better are we ?
I am very upset that all we can muster is the news articles of selective abortions , sex discrimination abortions,one night stand abortions ,i just didn’t want it abortions i mean really compare and contrast the amout of beheading’s in the middle east for such silliness as kissing in public or infidelity , compared with us here in canada ,russia, and many other places where the supposed whites have a moral supiriority over the rest of the races….and we really are not much better , again i realize that many here and abroad disagree with this like i do but it is painful and terrifying to think of what my daughter will be able to choose from as a possible mate in the future …lets see greenie weenies who think the world is over populated so they love slaughtering the unborn only if they are white,middle eastern dictators who think women are animals for their sexual gratification ,and to “spread there seed” , blacks who don’t know what monogomy means or abstenance for that matter in america or in africa or france or anywhere sorry it is a statistic not a racial slurr , left wing self loathing white liberals,communist’s,socialist’s, church pew athiest’s you know who you are you bring your kids to church cause it is a good way to teach them right from wrong but you really dont beleive in the triune god your probly the worst of all, radical man hating faminists, like what what is she going to be able to choose from ?
It is no wonder white people are dying in mass bcause they belive they have no power to control anything so they think they are doing what is right by not having kids comeinto this terrible world but in acuallity they are feeding the beast ..if they actually had say three or four kids they would in effec be starting the ball of change rolling ..in airdrie wherei live i see it all the time but this little city is not the entire western world but there are so many young three four and five kid parents who are young and married and loving life and it is reflected in the community everyone knows who is what and wherre is when and who has what and did what and i mean that is all of the good sences like the kids down the block play all over the nieghbourhood with all the other kids and everyone knows everyone and all watch out for each other ..but in big urban centers the whites are just discouraged…even on sun news network , karyn lieberman has 0 kids, the east indian lady has 0 kids, jackie delany has 0 kids, christa erikson may have one or 2 kids, and while they do a great job of reporting the birth rate chrisis in the west amongst white people they are DOING nothing about it themselves, my wife and i are having problems having kids we pray everyday for god to bless us with a child but no luck yet but we are trying and we will not give up we just beleive god has perfect timing but we wish he would hurry up …lol. anyway just my little rant on this
i am pro life always , no one ever said a woman did not have a choice as women never used to think of it as a bad thing …something happened along the way to corrupte women ..probly men mistreating them ..but what ever the case we need to encourage women to be proud to bare 5 or even 10 or 20 kids …why not it is a great thing the only down side is if the children are unloved…dont have kids just to have kids have kids cause you love kids and have lotso f them and if you dont want kids keep it in yourp ants and keep your friken legs closed , or use heavy contraceptive or remove your ovaries or cut your nuts off …but do not have an abortion!!! that little baby loves you already , you are its super hero and alway will be so long as you love him/her!!
Let me see if I have this right: the same group who support the murder of viable or healthy pre-born or newborn children, also oppose the execution of people convicted’of crimes so heinous that they should never be allowed freedom ever again.
I guess that if you support the first, you WOULD support the second.
Good Lord, our societies are going to hell in a hand-basket.
You can bet that forced abortion of the handicapped, retarded, blind, deaf, is not far from being made law. When man is the measure of himself. Murder becomes inevitable. Mass murder eventually the path that becomes logical.
As Ive said before whee far past the slippery slop. Humanity in the West is swimming in the latrines of self destruction . Chocking to the death on its own bile of moral relativism.
This is not about ethics or morals. Both have been thrown out the window. These are the thoughts of serial killers. The justification for mass murder.
Abortion is evil. This is the liberal future.
John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet
What LC Bennett said @ 3:02 and Revnant Dream @ 4:14.
What is next folks? Maybe farmers with four tractors and two combines, truckers with two trucks on the road or a house framer that has more than three nail pounding employees.
Communists and fascists are all the same, as according to them anyone that does fit their mold is an enemy of the people and needs to be snuffed.
I am too upset with the ideas of these monsters to type properly.
My post at 4:54 should have said “Who is next folks?” and the last line should have read “anyone that does NOT fit their mold”.
“Who never doubted, never half believed. Where doubt is, there truth is – it is her shadow.”
Ambrose Bierce
Life begins at the moment of fertilization.
“Thou shalt not kill.” (self defense and war against evil are exceptions).
If we had any doubt left that the polical left are devoid of morals or humanity them wanting to kill newborns and call it abortions.
There should be one test case. It should be retroactive and the author of this article used as the subject.
@Ken (Kulak) 4:54 pm
What is next folks? Maybe farmers with four tractors and two combines…
A glimpse of life in Pol Pol’s utopia:
‘The categories of offenses punishable by death were often capricious in the extreme. … Unauthorized possession of foraged food was another reason to die. People who were caught with a fish, a crab, a snail or a lizard were sometimes summarily executed for misappropriation of the “people’s” resources, as witnesses in Benteay Meanchey’s Thmar Puok District testified. This practice was equivalent to a charge of attempting to survive starvation without permission.‘
http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/toll.htm
emphasis added
Sasquatch: Seems I may have mis-spoken myself – war is such a yesterday term. The operative expression is now “pre-emptive kinetic military action” designed to frighten enemy combatants into submission with shock and awe. Any casualties are their fault for resisting.