91 Replies to “The Decline And Fall Of The American Empire”
Obama received 12 stitches on the mouth just before the leak – a failed attempt at damage control.
“Assange does not have to be a USA citizen to be charged with:
The Espionage Act of 1917;
Sedition Act of 1918.”
Er, however, he does have to actually be in the US for the charges to have any legal force.
“In the New world order, coming sooner….”
Coo coo for Coco puffs. You’re in good company here son.
May the flying spaghetti monster bless wikileaks they’re doing good work.
The leaks are uncovering some curious things but that doesn’t excuse this guy. Either governments don’t realsie what these leaks could mean or don’t care.
“Why should Australia charge him with treason?”
Well, if somewhere in all these leaks he released anything classified that could be clearly identified as Australian-originated material (i.e., Australian military or diplomatic documents) then Australia could charge him.
Even so, as long as he stays of Australian territory, there’s no way to enforce any charges.
“Coo coo for Coco puffs.”
I agree. Without dismissing the serious nature of these leaks for the US – and allies – and other nations – all this sort of diplomatic stuff reveals is that there is no “New World Order” and that governments tend to fly by the seat of their pants like the rest of us.
@JM
Er- Assange was egotistical enough to go to the USA after his video release and appear on the Colbert Report, and if he lands in any country with an extradition treaty with the USA, he could then be held.
@ johan i kanada. I do believe that some here do not know the difference between today’s liberalism and classical liberalism. These two forms of liberalism are diametrically opposed. Classical liberalism is for a considerable amount of personal freedom. Today’s liberalism is for socialism and the collective.
Why are you all so afraid of the truth? Sometimes it hurts…I’m sure it especially hurts some of you who believe that the US does no wrong. Why should he be killed? For revealing the truth? Really? Like MLK Jr should have been killed for the same thing?
Just watching Beck. I hate like he?l to appear sexist, but what sex is Pvt Manning? Or is it what mental, emotional age I should be asking? He’s a 22-yr old something, but what?
And how was he missed? I know the Cdn Army missed Williams, but how did the American Army miss Manning?
Was it there about anarchy that girly men like?
Mr. Assange has been charged with a sex crime in Sweden, that comes first. Somehow I don’t think he’s going to be needing to make many decisions regarding his future for the next few years. Maybe only “guilty” or “not guilty”.
and,
By the time he can return to Oz, there’ll be a new administration in the USA. So Obama’s or Ms Clinton’s opinion won’t matter very much.
I think the major damage to the US intelligence community is that there was a leak at all. (I agree with much of what Larry@2.26pm said) Even if it was simply gossip regarding heads of states lack of fashion sense, the larger question is, “who leaked this”? and “never speak to these people again”. The loss of trusted relationships can be devastating, and as any whore in high school knows, it can take years to gain that trust back.
and the US already has an army private to shoot regarding the, who leaked it…
I think anyone who likens Julian Assange to MLK Jr. should give their head a shake, but not at the end of a noose.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies” – Ron Paul
“Does this dress make me look fat?” Mrs. Ron Paul to Mr. Ron Paul.
Julian Assange (a.k.a. Bill Maher) with a bad rug.
“I think anyone who likens Julian Assange to MLK Jr. should give their head a shake, but not at the end of a noose.”
Please, go on…explain why you feel that they are completely unalike in the sense that they are both being attacked for bringing the truth to light. This place is classic for empty statements and unexplained disagreements
At some point, one of America’s allies just may deal with Julian unilaterally. Saudi Arabia, for example, is not too pleased.
Now this would only be interesting if the leaks were about Obama. That would be entertaining.
But the rest of this schlock is about as surprising as the revelation that the sun rises in the east.
Obama doesn’t care, he would be Assange if he wasn’t accidentally POTUS.
Begs the question, does Obama want these leaks?
Is it just his strategy to go after the Web?
He always uses a cover story for an end run catch.
Feints & double blinds. Never let people know what your really doing while stealing them blind.
JMO
BTJ, you asked for it, here it comes.
MLK Jr. was acting on behalf, firstly, for a whole group of Americans, whom historically were deprived of many of the benefits of the American way of life the majority of other Americans enjoyed. However, as he did not seek to swing the pendulum to the other extreme, where the deprived would become the ruling group, he sought equality for all. Such that we judge “Not by the color of their skin, but the content of their heart”, MLK Jr. was seeking to benefit all of America, to have a country of racial peace and harmony. And to do so he did have to speak the truth to show the disparity that needed correction.
Julian Assange, who is he acting for? Himself? The World? A vested interest? We do not know the content of his heart, as he perpetuates his own image as this seemingly virtuous enigma. We therefore can only judge the results of his actions.
In the case of the diplomatic service documents leaked, he is revealing truths, but to what ends? Diplomacy is a game. There are few written rules and information is currency in the game. Gathering information is therefore part of the game. How and where you gather that information is kept secret, for once a source is known, and the information is divulged, its value is diminished. So basically it is spy, till you get caught. And until someone can come up with the ultimate bullshit/lie detector, there will always be the cat and mouse game of he who has the best information, stays on top.
So in his actions, Julian Assange is an interloper in the game. He is upsetting the board, potentially wiping out game pieces on the board (endangering lives of participants in the diplomatic game.) Is he trying to redefine the game to his liking? Or is he trying to control the game?
Imagine BTJ, that you and myself are playing a chess game. Julian Assange walks in and tells me that he has seen your prep notes, and tells me that with the given game position, what your next move will be. Is this fair? Is it proper? It benefits me, it’s a detriment to you, and if Mr. Assange has a bet on the side, he may profit too. So in this case the telling of the truth is not anywhere as noble as the actions of MLK Jr.
The speaking of “truths” is not always as noble as you make it out to be BTJ.
AtlanticJim at November 29, 2010 1:03 PM knows whereof he speaks.
There are references to this kind of activity in many books and articles. It is, so to say, normal course of events. It is one of the activities of diplomatic mission of any country to send home what others are like, how they behave are they liked, disliked at home and abroad. This is nothing unusual. The reports must by frank with sometime colorful language to underline points.
If that shows up on internet, well it can be embarrassing though everybody will live through it. Unfortunately, so far even the idiot that made it public.
It is interesting to note the remarks of the current president of the US on the subject, kind of like and of the same intensity as, “what the hell are you doing?”.
In another time, the guy would have been dusted off in no time flat.
I would expect Julian Assange to have his “Bucket” list in order for he’s running plum out of time IMO.
MLK Jr. is so grossly overrated that using him as a reference measure is pointless.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/11/027788.php
“The New York Times is participating in the dissemination of the stolen State Department cables that have been made available to it in one way or another via WikiLeaks. My friend Steve Hayward recalls that only last year the New York Times ostentatiously declined to publish or post any of the Climategate emails because they had been illegally obtained.”
IMO, Assange should be congratulated for what he did. The fact that all these governments were/are scared of this leak shows that they don’t want the public to know of their backdoor activities, which may involve some damning info. Assange isn’t a traitor, he is a champion of Freedom of Information.
Mr Wiki leaki pants will feel enboldened the longer he is still free…I mean breathing.
Once he outs Israel,however,my money says he’s got about a week to live. Two tops.
Mossad probably has him under scrutiny, and when the time is right, click….. WHHHOOOFFF! Rat removed.
How bizzare.
Here I thought we were against those opaque bureaucrats and intellectual-driven government.
The Tea Party should be cheering this on. Most of the stuff being revealed was written by unaccountable bureaucrats and intellectuals. Now they have been exposed.
A few points:
Prince Andrew of course was entirely correct. Bishkek is a sewer of corruption. There are really insufficient polite terms to describe the reeking pile of corruption that passes for government in Kyrgyzstan, or indeed any of the ‘Stans. All you need to look at is what happened to a certain Canadian company there last year.
Cameron and Osborne are indeed lightweights, and that’s probably putting it lightly for anyone who remembers Cameron’s iceberg follies and playing footsie with Goldsmith over AGW.
Marc is entirely correct. The damaging part in this is not so much the actual content. It’s the notion that the US cannot be trusted to keep diplomatic correspondence confidential. The most enraged parties in all this will be those who say the least in public.
Revnant Dream: The leaks will certainly assist O in taking down the USA. Indeed, it is odd that Julian is still around given that the CIA is usually pretty good at getting rid of these types as are O’s chicago thug friends.
Marc
Mr Assange has not been charged with a sex crime in Sweden, as far as I know that charge has been withdrawn.
re: rags (i.e. MSM newspapers)
The Guardian’s Nick Davies brokered an agreement with Assange to hand over in advance two further sets of military field reports on Iraq and Afghanistan so professional journalists could analyse them.
@ Glacierman’ “Truth is treason in the empire of lies”
You should read Suvorov’s “Aquarium.” – it may teach you something.
I’m impressed with the people who think that these leaks are a good thing.
In case they have not noticed, and their statements indicate they haven’t, there are a number of rogue countries led by mentally unstable leaders at the moment around the world.
If you think that possibly giving these madmen another reason to start shooting at innocent people, or start firing nukes off randomly, then you better start reassessing mankind’s future on this planet.
The last thing we need at this moment in history is another destabilizing force to agitate or anger the wackos.
Assange is a fool to think this is a good or clever idea.
“[If Assange] lands in any country with an extradition treaty with the USA, he could then be held.”
Nonsense.
No country would ever enforce another country’s espionage laws.
Think about it.
Check…Testing.
Posted by: JJM at November 30, 2010 8:17 AM:
“”[If Assange] lands in any country with an extradition treaty with the USA, he could then be held.”
Nonsense.
No country would ever enforce another country’s espionage laws.
Think about it.”
Yeah, I’ve thought about it JJM, as long as you have an extradition treaty, and expect to someday need something from that other country, you’ll hand over the accused to that country. Otherwise your country will be the next country bitch slapped in the diplomatic exchanges, and fall to the bottom of the pecking order. That’s what international diplomacy is all about, until you come up with a viable alternative.
If you think that a foreign country would hand over a resident foreign national purely on the basis of US domestic espionage laws, dream on.
@JJM I might not have to sleep long for my dream to come through. BWA-HA-HA!!!!
The latest on Ass-hat: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/interpol-issues-arrest-warrant-for-julian-assange-20101201-18fw7.html?from=smh_sb
Coles notes of the link:
1)Interpol issues world wide arrest warrent for him based on the alleged sexual assault in Sweden.
2)Ecuador has retracted the safe haven offer to him. (IMHO- someone put the screws to them to withdraw-diplomacy in action.)
And if he is caught somewhere, I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a Jack Ruby welcome.
“Interpol issues world wide arrest warrent [sic] for him based on the alleged sexual assault in Sweden.”
A sexual offence you’ll note.
Not espionage.
@JJM- And while he is being held and interviewed in Sweden, that would give the USA time to apply for extradition. This story will play out over time. I still think I will get the last laugh.
Obama received 12 stitches on the mouth just before the leak – a failed attempt at damage control.
“Assange does not have to be a USA citizen to be charged with:
The Espionage Act of 1917;
Sedition Act of 1918.”
Er, however, he does have to actually be in the US for the charges to have any legal force.
“In the New world order, coming sooner….”
Coo coo for Coco puffs. You’re in good company here son.
May the flying spaghetti monster bless wikileaks they’re doing good work.
The leaks are uncovering some curious things but that doesn’t excuse this guy. Either governments don’t realsie what these leaks could mean or don’t care.
“Why should Australia charge him with treason?”
Well, if somewhere in all these leaks he released anything classified that could be clearly identified as Australian-originated material (i.e., Australian military or diplomatic documents) then Australia could charge him.
Even so, as long as he stays of Australian territory, there’s no way to enforce any charges.
“Coo coo for Coco puffs.”
I agree. Without dismissing the serious nature of these leaks for the US – and allies – and other nations – all this sort of diplomatic stuff reveals is that there is no “New World Order” and that governments tend to fly by the seat of their pants like the rest of us.
Readers, here is a really good post by Prof. Jacobson at Cornell regarding the leaks:
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/11/wikileaks-completes-obamas.html
@JM
Er- Assange was egotistical enough to go to the USA after his video release and appear on the Colbert Report, and if he lands in any country with an extradition treaty with the USA, he could then be held.
@ johan i kanada. I do believe that some here do not know the difference between today’s liberalism and classical liberalism. These two forms of liberalism are diametrically opposed. Classical liberalism is for a considerable amount of personal freedom. Today’s liberalism is for socialism and the collective.
Why are you all so afraid of the truth? Sometimes it hurts…I’m sure it especially hurts some of you who believe that the US does no wrong. Why should he be killed? For revealing the truth? Really? Like MLK Jr should have been killed for the same thing?
Just watching Beck. I hate like he?l to appear sexist, but what sex is Pvt Manning? Or is it what mental, emotional age I should be asking? He’s a 22-yr old something, but what?
And how was he missed? I know the Cdn Army missed Williams, but how did the American Army miss Manning?
Was it there about anarchy that girly men like?
Mr. Assange has been charged with a sex crime in Sweden, that comes first. Somehow I don’t think he’s going to be needing to make many decisions regarding his future for the next few years. Maybe only “guilty” or “not guilty”.
and,
By the time he can return to Oz, there’ll be a new administration in the USA. So Obama’s or Ms Clinton’s opinion won’t matter very much.
I think the major damage to the US intelligence community is that there was a leak at all. (I agree with much of what Larry@2.26pm said) Even if it was simply gossip regarding heads of states lack of fashion sense, the larger question is, “who leaked this”? and “never speak to these people again”. The loss of trusted relationships can be devastating, and as any whore in high school knows, it can take years to gain that trust back.
and the US already has an army private to shoot regarding the, who leaked it…
I think anyone who likens Julian Assange to MLK Jr. should give their head a shake, but not at the end of a noose.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies” – Ron Paul
“Does this dress make me look fat?” Mrs. Ron Paul to Mr. Ron Paul.
Julian Assange (a.k.a. Bill Maher) with a bad rug.
“I think anyone who likens Julian Assange to MLK Jr. should give their head a shake, but not at the end of a noose.”
Please, go on…explain why you feel that they are completely unalike in the sense that they are both being attacked for bringing the truth to light. This place is classic for empty statements and unexplained disagreements
At some point, one of America’s allies just may deal with Julian unilaterally. Saudi Arabia, for example, is not too pleased.
Now this would only be interesting if the leaks were about Obama. That would be entertaining.
But the rest of this schlock is about as surprising as the revelation that the sun rises in the east.
Obama doesn’t care, he would be Assange if he wasn’t accidentally POTUS.
Begs the question, does Obama want these leaks?
Is it just his strategy to go after the Web?
He always uses a cover story for an end run catch.
Feints & double blinds. Never let people know what your really doing while stealing them blind.
JMO
Some Kadr and CSIS stuff being released on NP. http://www.nationalpost.com/news/CSIS+head+slams+courts+memo+WikiLeaks/3902166/story.html
BTJ, you asked for it, here it comes.
MLK Jr. was acting on behalf, firstly, for a whole group of Americans, whom historically were deprived of many of the benefits of the American way of life the majority of other Americans enjoyed. However, as he did not seek to swing the pendulum to the other extreme, where the deprived would become the ruling group, he sought equality for all. Such that we judge “Not by the color of their skin, but the content of their heart”, MLK Jr. was seeking to benefit all of America, to have a country of racial peace and harmony. And to do so he did have to speak the truth to show the disparity that needed correction.
Julian Assange, who is he acting for? Himself? The World? A vested interest? We do not know the content of his heart, as he perpetuates his own image as this seemingly virtuous enigma. We therefore can only judge the results of his actions.
In the case of the diplomatic service documents leaked, he is revealing truths, but to what ends? Diplomacy is a game. There are few written rules and information is currency in the game. Gathering information is therefore part of the game. How and where you gather that information is kept secret, for once a source is known, and the information is divulged, its value is diminished. So basically it is spy, till you get caught. And until someone can come up with the ultimate bullshit/lie detector, there will always be the cat and mouse game of he who has the best information, stays on top.
So in his actions, Julian Assange is an interloper in the game. He is upsetting the board, potentially wiping out game pieces on the board (endangering lives of participants in the diplomatic game.) Is he trying to redefine the game to his liking? Or is he trying to control the game?
Imagine BTJ, that you and myself are playing a chess game. Julian Assange walks in and tells me that he has seen your prep notes, and tells me that with the given game position, what your next move will be. Is this fair? Is it proper? It benefits me, it’s a detriment to you, and if Mr. Assange has a bet on the side, he may profit too. So in this case the telling of the truth is not anywhere as noble as the actions of MLK Jr.
The speaking of “truths” is not always as noble as you make it out to be BTJ.
Jeffrey Goldberg points out that the most “strident lobbyists” for war with Iran were other Arab leaders:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/11/andrew-sullivan-on-what-i-apparently-believe/67165/
AtlanticJim at November 29, 2010 1:03 PM knows whereof he speaks.
There are references to this kind of activity in many books and articles. It is, so to say, normal course of events. It is one of the activities of diplomatic mission of any country to send home what others are like, how they behave are they liked, disliked at home and abroad. This is nothing unusual. The reports must by frank with sometime colorful language to underline points.
If that shows up on internet, well it can be embarrassing though everybody will live through it. Unfortunately, so far even the idiot that made it public.
It is interesting to note the remarks of the current president of the US on the subject, kind of like and of the same intensity as, “what the hell are you doing?”.
In another time, the guy would have been dusted off in no time flat.
I would expect Julian Assange to have his “Bucket” list in order for he’s running plum out of time IMO.
MLK Jr. is so grossly overrated that using him as a reference measure is pointless.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/11/027788.php
“The New York Times is participating in the dissemination of the stolen State Department cables that have been made available to it in one way or another via WikiLeaks. My friend Steve Hayward recalls that only last year the New York Times ostentatiously declined to publish or post any of the Climategate emails because they had been illegally obtained.”
IMO, Assange should be congratulated for what he did. The fact that all these governments were/are scared of this leak shows that they don’t want the public to know of their backdoor activities, which may involve some damning info. Assange isn’t a traitor, he is a champion of Freedom of Information.
Mr Wiki leaki pants will feel enboldened the longer he is still free…I mean breathing.
Once he outs Israel,however,my money says he’s got about a week to live. Two tops.
Mossad probably has him under scrutiny, and when the time is right, click….. WHHHOOOFFF! Rat removed.
How bizzare.
Here I thought we were against those opaque bureaucrats and intellectual-driven government.
The Tea Party should be cheering this on. Most of the stuff being revealed was written by unaccountable bureaucrats and intellectuals. Now they have been exposed.
A few points:
Prince Andrew of course was entirely correct. Bishkek is a sewer of corruption. There are really insufficient polite terms to describe the reeking pile of corruption that passes for government in Kyrgyzstan, or indeed any of the ‘Stans. All you need to look at is what happened to a certain Canadian company there last year.
Cameron and Osborne are indeed lightweights, and that’s probably putting it lightly for anyone who remembers Cameron’s iceberg follies and playing footsie with Goldsmith over AGW.
Marc is entirely correct. The damaging part in this is not so much the actual content. It’s the notion that the US cannot be trusted to keep diplomatic correspondence confidential. The most enraged parties in all this will be those who say the least in public.
Revnant Dream: The leaks will certainly assist O in taking down the USA. Indeed, it is odd that Julian is still around given that the CIA is usually pretty good at getting rid of these types as are O’s chicago thug friends.
Marc
Mr Assange has not been charged with a sex crime in Sweden, as far as I know that charge has been withdrawn.
re: rags (i.e. MSM newspapers)
The Guardian’s Nick Davies brokered an agreement with Assange to hand over in advance two further sets of military field reports on Iraq and Afghanistan so professional journalists could analyse them.
@ Glacierman’ “Truth is treason in the empire of lies”
You should read Suvorov’s “Aquarium.” – it may teach you something.
I’m impressed with the people who think that these leaks are a good thing.
In case they have not noticed, and their statements indicate they haven’t, there are a number of rogue countries led by mentally unstable leaders at the moment around the world.
If you think that possibly giving these madmen another reason to start shooting at innocent people, or start firing nukes off randomly, then you better start reassessing mankind’s future on this planet.
The last thing we need at this moment in history is another destabilizing force to agitate or anger the wackos.
Assange is a fool to think this is a good or clever idea.
“[If Assange] lands in any country with an extradition treaty with the USA, he could then be held.”
Nonsense.
No country would ever enforce another country’s espionage laws.
Think about it.
Check…Testing.
Posted by: JJM at November 30, 2010 8:17 AM:
“”[If Assange] lands in any country with an extradition treaty with the USA, he could then be held.”
Nonsense.
No country would ever enforce another country’s espionage laws.
Think about it.”
Yeah, I’ve thought about it JJM, as long as you have an extradition treaty, and expect to someday need something from that other country, you’ll hand over the accused to that country. Otherwise your country will be the next country bitch slapped in the diplomatic exchanges, and fall to the bottom of the pecking order. That’s what international diplomacy is all about, until you come up with a viable alternative.
If you think that a foreign country would hand over a resident foreign national purely on the basis of US domestic espionage laws, dream on.
@JJM I might not have to sleep long for my dream to come through. BWA-HA-HA!!!!
The latest on Ass-hat:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/interpol-issues-arrest-warrant-for-julian-assange-20101201-18fw7.html?from=smh_sb
Coles notes of the link:
1)Interpol issues world wide arrest warrent for him based on the alleged sexual assault in Sweden.
2)Ecuador has retracted the safe haven offer to him. (IMHO- someone put the screws to them to withdraw-diplomacy in action.)
And if he is caught somewhere, I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a Jack Ruby welcome.
“Interpol issues world wide arrest warrent [sic] for him based on the alleged sexual assault in Sweden.”
A sexual offence you’ll note.
Not espionage.
@JJM- And while he is being held and interviewed in Sweden, that would give the USA time to apply for extradition. This story will play out over time. I still think I will get the last laugh.