Outraged Liberal MP accuses Conservatives of thinking like Liberals:
A Liberal MP is accusing the Harper government of withholding aid to flood-ravaged Pakistan because the community in Canada won’t help them win a future election.
(…)
“I don’t think that there’s enough votes in one particular constituency that (the Conservatives) can get,” (Jim Karygiannis) said, as a way of explaining why he believes the government is stalling.
For those interested, here’s a brief excerpt from Karygiannis’ biography at his website:
在他看来，加拿大要设立一种救援机制帮助加拿大居民在海外灾区的受灾亲属尽快办理来加团聚
Translation:
“In his view, Canada should establish a rescue mechanism to help Canadian residents’ affected relatives in the disaster areas overseas apply as soon as possible to increase reunion.”
Maybe the relatives here should be sent back home to help them out in situ.
I didn’t spend too much time on the CV but it appears that the honourable MP has spent a considerable amount of his time out of the country assisting in disaster relief at Canadian taxpayers exspense, perhaps his own constituents should ask why he’s so concerned with overseas aid?
Reunions.
Great, just what we need. More unskilled “Reunion Class” immigrants in this country. I have no ideological bias against families reuniting in a new host country, however the current system does nothing to ensure new arrivals (of Reunion Class immigrants) do not impose an undue burden on social services.
A sponsor is required to sign documentation to this effect, but as I have been led to understand, it is largely toothless, and rarely (if ever) enforced by federal officials.
Personally, a sponsor should be required to put up a cash bond for each ‘sponsoree’. I would envision the price of such a bond being variable, based on the particulars of each individual, for example, age, known pre-existing medical conditions, etc.
Only after set period of time, say 10 years, would the be bond be released, and only after confirming no undue amount of social services were consumed by the new arrival.
Heh, but this is Canada, and I’d be tarred a racist and bigot by “progressives” for even daring to suggest such a thing. Silly me.
There is a whole whack of stuff in various languages on his website. English and French only please. Plus, what constitutes a ‘successful visit’ as opposed to simply a visit? If successful means actually getting there, well done. If simply completing a visit, and well, you did not even leave Ottawa — good on you for the try. Put it on your CV because it looks good that you made the attempt.
Has this guy done any work in Canada?
Western democracies are slow learners, however maybe they learned a little from the Indonesia tidal wave a couple of years back where their swift and expensive assistance was accepted with little thanks or gratitude.
There are plenty of rich muslim nations (petro states) why are they not assisting their muslim “brothers”.
Charity is a personal choice, governments should stay out of it. People are free to donate as much of their own money as they want to.
Pakistan aids and abets those who kill Canadian troops. Not one cent of government aid to those Muslim terrorist sympathizers. Let the Muslims take care of their own.
We’re afraid of radiation leaks and unexpended munitions. Not to mention kidnapping so I think we stay home this time. We’ll send some money but when you live in a mud hut there is lots of building supplies available locally at the moment.
Colin,
When my fiancee emigrated from the Philippines, I had to sign a contract she would not require any social assistance for 10 years.
I think maybe this should be enforced a little more liberally. And any relative over 50 should never be allowed social assistance as there is little chance they would every pay enough into the system.
How many ways can one pronounce pandering?
well he certainly plays the game well.
the game of jamming one’s CV with every conceivable tidbit of minutiae. reads like a travel agent’s jaunts.
pander pander pander.
they ALL do it.
“There are plenty of rich muslim nations (petro states) why are they not assisting their muslim “brothers”.”
@cascadian
They are. They are building mosques.
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/08/11/caliph-obama-reminds-us-that-islam-has-always-been-part-of-america/
I have a serious question .
Along time ago in the calgary sun or herald there was an article about the cost of settling a new immigrant as apposed to just having more kids right here in canada and it was an overwhelming burdon finacially to bring in sttle train and “westernize” a new immigrant basically assimilate and i would really like to find that article if anyone has any link or idea as to where it is can i please have the information please and thank you.
Paul in calgary
Devil’s advocate here. Don’t bother with the insults and name-calling, and don’t bother presuming my ideological leaning. I stand for nothing. And I stand for everything.
“perhaps his own constituents should ask why he’s so concerned with overseas aid?”
Disaster relief is not the same thing as foreign aid. Foreign aid comes in the form of loans and credit lines. Disaster relief comes in the form of ready-to-use equipment that is designed to save lives.
Canada is a self-declared ‘middle’ power which has always entertained lofty foreign policy goals. Disaster reflief is, and always has been, a foreign policy instrument. It is typically used to garner goodwill and favor from recipients. Would Canada benefit from providing relief to Pakistan? Given the vested interests that several Pakistani groups have in Afghanistan, it would be a good way to sideline some of the extremist groups that have developed a knack for providing disaster relief. Its a simple equation. The Pakistani state is not equipped with the resources or infrastructure to deal with this. Either we help prop them up and deal with the situation. Or we let the extremists do it. With Canadian troops in Afghanistan, I’d want the Pakistani government to win this particular battle.
Furthermore, with Pakistan, there is a degree of resonance given that there is a significant population of Pakistani descent. They can hardly be held in contempt for asking why the government hasn’t broached this latest natural disaster the way it did for Haiti. That is a fair question to ask and I can’t understand why we would castigate a Member of Parliament – a representative of the people – for voicing the concerns of a community.
Just saying.
“Heh, but this is Canada, and I’d be tarred a racist and bigot by “progressives” for even daring to suggest such a thing.”
Only if you apply it to specific races/groups while waiving it for others. That said, this statement by you appears to reveal more than you intended.
“Western democracies are slow learners, however maybe they learned a little from the Indonesia tidal wave a couple of years back where their swift and expensive assistance was accepted with little thanks or gratitude.”
I was tempted to take your word for it. Then I googled it. Turns out the Indonesian government has thanked anyone and everyone for the aid. One of the first link that shows up is an article about thanks conveyed to Armenian doctors. If they have bothered to thank small groups and countries like Armenia, I am sure they showed their gratitude to larger contributors.
I must ask – did you bother doing any research before making that statement? And what kind of thanks were you expecting? Mass celebrations? For what its worth, the affected regions still haven’t recovered. Granted, you re sitting too far away from it all to know whats actually happening. But in that case, it may be wiser to not say anything.
“Pakistan aids and abets those who kill Canadian troops”
I can only assume that you mean the Pakistani state aids and abets those who kill Canadian troops? Intrigunigly, those same Canadian troop killers enjoy nothing more than blowing up their fellow citizens in Pakistan. As a general rule, its never a good idea to treat 150 million people in a fractured country as one ‘whole’. Lots ofpeople in there with different goals and aims. Should disaster relief be tied to politics? Thats a matter of opinion. I’m not sure if I would hold back drinking water from a region that contains, amongst others, children, just because I don’t agree with their politics.
“How many ways can one pronounce pandering?”
Canada has a significant population of Pakistan origin. They would like to see the government take a more active role. An MP – a representative of the people – brings it up in Parliament. Is it democracy, or is it pandering? Who knows? I don’t. That said, we have helped/pandered to other countries before.
“There are plenty of rich muslim nations (petro states) why are they not assisting their muslim “brothers”.”
What would SDA look like without conjecture?
I’m not going to do you research for you and find out who pledged what, but theres a newspaper article in front of me that says the Saudi’s have pledged USD 100m. And thats just the official aid – private donors are expected to send a lot more.Sadly, a part of that will eventually end up being used to propagate certain ideologies. But I digress. Apparently they are helping their muslim brothers. Which leaves us all wondering what the point of your statement was?
Just saying.
“Along time ago in the calgary sun or herald there was an article about the cost of settling a new immigrant as apposed to just having more kids right here in canada and it was an overwhelming burdon finacially to bring in sttle train and “westernize” a new immigrant basically assimilate and i would really like to find that article if anyone has any link or idea as to where it is can i please have the information please and thank you.”
Cost of ‘westernization’? I would like to read this article too. The only expenditure I can think of is ESL training. Beyond that, new immigrants are generally left to fend for themselves or re-educate at their own cost. The government doesn’t provide any aid or education to ‘westernize’ immigrants beyond language training. In fact, I don’t even know if the language training is free (other than for school-going children).
The cost is unlikely to be too high – certainly not high enough to be more than the cost of Canadians having more children. Having children is a costly exercise that can put a dent in productivity. A woman who has four children has a very different productivity rate to a woman who has only one. Four maternity leaves could put a real dent in their careers. Much easier to just import families at a stage where both parents are working.
Besides, how many Canadians actually want to have more children? Children are expensive and take up time. Most people are just too preoccupied with making money. So even if it is better for society as a whole, why would individuals want to do it?
No money for Pakistani flood relief? Works for me. We’ll have our taxpayers’ money spent on the floating Tamils off Canada’s west coast instead. Such great value for our dollar. I assume Karygiannis would see nothing objectionable in helping the Tamil terrorists either.
As suggested earlier…it’s time for the oil-rich Muslim countries to take care of their own.
“Is it democracy, or is it pandering? Who knows? I don’t. That said, we have helped/pandered to other countries before.”
Given Karygiannis’ penchant for dining with terrorist organizations,the Tamil Tigers,it’s very probable he’s doing the same thing here,unless,of course you want to believe a politician with his history has developed a conscience.
So, if we wrongly pander to one group or Country, we can’t correct the mistake by NOT pandering to the next one to come along with his hand out?
“Ambrose Bierce famously defined politics as a “strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. ”
Mr. Bierce said it better than I can.
The floods and landslides in Pakistan are the “will of Allah”, don’t ya know?? They must accept his judgment, clearly – they were offending Him in some way!!
“Heh, but this is Canada, and I’d be tarred a racist and bigot by “progressives” for even daring to suggest such a thing.”
Only if you apply it to specific races/groups while waiving it for others. That said, this statement by you appears to reveal more than you intended.
Posted by: devil’s advocate at August 12, 2010 7:39 AM
No, even if I applied my principle universally, which I would, I’d still be labeled racist and bigoted. Such is the way of Moral Relativism.
Regarding your second sentence, it’s more than a little cryptic. If you have something to say, spit it out. Don’t be so mamsy pamsy about making a point, especially if it’s a passive aggressive attempt at a condescending lecture.
Charity begins at home. If we have money to spare, how about creating jobs in Canada instead of sending it abroad, especially to countries from where islamists aim their hatred towards us.
I wonder how much devil’s advocate will give out of his/her/it’s own tightly stitched up pocket? Stingy people are always the loudest in their zeal for govts to spend money. Somehow they think that when the govt does the spending, in cases like this flooding, it means that they themselves can continue to be scrooges as usual.
We are on to you…. devil’s advocate!
Devil’s advocate
You are correct that disaster relief is not the same thing as foreign aid, however, as you mentioned disaster relief is used to “garner goodwill and favour from recipients”. Unfortunately sometimes favour and goodwill is lacking. I do remember the last disaster relief for Pakistan (Kashmir) where a lot of foreign help come from USA and western NGO’s. Do you see any “goodwill and favour from recipients” for these countries, now?
Should Canada expect goodwill and favour from the country whose prime minister instead of going to his constituents in flooded area went to Europe?
You are, of course, right, there is a degree of resonance from significant population of Pakistani descent. How significant it is? Definitely significant for some Canadian politicians courting votes but not for majority of people outside Ontario and Quebec. (~125,000 people of Pakistani descent with majority in GTA and Montreal).
There is also a question of Pakistani views on Canada and particularly question of Islamic fundamentalisms which is against Canadian values. Should we help people who introduced sharia (particularly hudud) in their own country,whose only uniting thing is the Islam, whose constitution prohibit non-muslim from holding the office of the head of state, and who want to introduce their own values to Canada irregardless of other people values? Should we help these people when many Canadians are out of job and economy is poor?
And you are wrong – KSA did not pledge 10 million dollars, Islamic Development Bank pledged a soft loan of 10 million dollars (IBTimes), Daily Times is only saying that “Relief goods from Egypt, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia was also received on Wednesday.” Europe is giving 10 mln euro, Turkey is giving 5 mln dollars, US give 71 mln USD. ……Of course you are right, somewhat. Taliban is giving 20mln USD if and only if Pakistani government rejects US aid. Pakistan and Pakistanis may even want to do that. .
Similar data is coming from Guardian UK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/09/pakistan-flood-aid)
Arab news said on 4 of August “We are coordinating with UN organizations to distribute humanitarian and emergency relief supplies worth $100 million, which the Kingdom had earlier allocated to support victims of natural calamities in Pakistan,” the statement said.” – somehow there is no confirmation of that anywhere else.
advocate: “The only expenditure I can think of is ESL training. Beyond that, new immigrants are generally left to fend for themselves or re-educate at their own cost.”
Maybe you should google that question. The CBC news this morning here in Sask is reporting that immigrants who don’t speak/read English are being discriminated against because tests for driver licences are only offered in English and French, and not Urdu or other Asian languages.
Heaven forbid they should have to learn to read traffic signs…
Hey, that 100$ million earmarked for the Cordoba 9/11 mosque would sure come in handy helping out these pakistani’s.
I mean, muslims helping muslims for a change.
And then I woke up and it was just a dream.
Only Liberals are allowed to do this kind of stuff, because only Liberals are all moral and that, y’know?
I’d personally tell him to Fork off and go ask Muslim nations and Muslims in Canada to pony up some cash for a change. They can spend billions on spreading the Wahhabi Jihad then they can help their fellow Muslims.
cascadian
There are plenty of rich muslim nations (petro states) why are they not assisting their muslim “brothers”.
To stretched funding A 15 Story triumphant in war Mosque. At the site of 9/11. Than there’s all those Islamic Jihadist madrases set up in every Country on the Planet from Saudi Arabia to expand the UMMA at ALL costs. Saudi Arabia, Our good friends you know?
JMO
“As suggested earlier…it’s time for the oil-rich Muslim countries to take care of their own.”
They are. Problem is our position on providing disaster relief does not discriminate on the basis of religion.
“So, if we wrongly pander to one group or Country, we can’t correct the mistake by NOT pandering to the next one to come along with his hand out?”
Badly worded on my part, so I can understand how that line would be misunderstood. What I was trying to say was that our policy on disaster aid is indiscriminate, so if we provide aid to one nation with a large diaspora in Canada (Haiti), it becomes difficult to deny another claim. Also, I should clarify that the aid is humanitarian, NOT hard cash.
It is up to you to contact your MP to inform him about how you feel on disaster relief and whether Canada should be contributing at all. However, for as long as it is a policy to do so (and it currently is), it is a topic that is eligible for discussion in parliament, regardless of who introduces it.
“Regarding your second sentence, it’s more than a little cryptic. If you have something to say, spit it out. Don’t be so mamsy pamsy about making a point, especially if it’s a passive aggressive attempt at a condescending lecture.”
Its a polite way of saying that your Freudian slip is indicative of the fact that you would like it applied to only some groups. Not passive agressive. Not condescending. Just fact.
“I wonder how much devil’s advocate will give out of his/her/it’s own tightly stitched up pocket? Stingy people are always the loudest in their zeal for govts to spend money. Somehow they think that when the govt does the spending, in cases like this flooding, it means that they themselves can continue to be scrooges as usual.
We are on to you…. devil’s advocate!”
Okay. But for what its worth, governments are generally more capable of mobilizing disaster relief than aids groups, mostly because they have the resources and space to stockpile large amounts of disaster relief goods – think blankets, tents, water purifiers etc. The Canadian government has them lying around in warehouses. The local charity, doesnt.
“Unfortunately sometimes favour and goodwill is lacking.”
This is a matter of opinion. The goodwill rarely alters the perception of the public at large- a blanket amidst a catastrophe is only a blanket, regardless of where it comes from. The real change comes in the governemnt-to-government contacts.Very few countries forget who has come to their aid, mostly because no country will ever forget to remind you that they helped you out in a tough time. It can come in a lot handier in diplomacy than one might imagine. There is a reason that countries fall over each other to provide diaster relief. India, hardly the richest country in the world, pumped millions into Haiti, a country with which it has no links of substance. No such thing as a free lunch and all that.
“Should Canada expect goodwill and favour from the country whose prime minister instead of going to his constituents in flooded area went to Europe?”
President, not Prime Minister. And no. He’s a lameduck President. Always has been. Also, a case against him in New York was dismissed because several NY psychiatrists diagnosed him as insane. He’s a non player in Pakistani politics. The army calls the shots. The army is providing the relief and they know where the aid is coming from.
“Definitely significant for some Canadian politicians courting votes but not for majority of people outside Ontario and Quebec. (~125,000 people of Pakistani descent with majority in GTA and Montreal).”
The fact that providing life-saving aid is now seen as a political gambit is, indeed, a sad reflection of our state of affairs. I like to think that there are non-Pakistanis out there who want Canada to play a more active role in saving lives. After all, this is the country that gave the world R2P, which has, apparently, become one of the justifications of the Iraq war (ironic,eh?). I don’t know what the pulse of hte nation is on this topic right now, but is it really so wrong for an MP to make noise about this issue?
“And you are wrong – KSA did not pledge 10 million dollars, Islamic Development Bank pledged a soft loan of 10 million dollars (IBTimes), Daily Times is only saying that “Relief goods from Egypt, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia was also received on Wednesday”
Yes, I read a news report on a German agency ( I think) quoting Arab times.
Granted, its not clear who has provided what. Guardian says the US has apparently given 22 million, not 71 million. Regardless, the latest I have read is that Canada has put up 2 million, which is decent, but well short of donors like Australia (9 million). Wonder what the Aussies are angling for, eh?
“is giving 20mln USD if and only if Pakistani government rejects US aid. ”
The actual cash value isn’t the problem here. The on-ground reality of its distribution is. The extremists are going to use this to win brownie points. If they get blankets to the affected faster than the Pakistani state, they will gain a lot of credibility. And no, they’re not going to wait and see if the Pakistani state rejects US aid. They would be one of the first to spring out of the blocks. Such is the propaganda value. If they win over the local population, it will be a lot more difficult ot hunt them down.
“The CBC news this morning here in Sask is reporting that immigrants who don’t speak/read English are being discriminated against because tests for driver licences are only offered in English and French”
Pardon me if I m wrong, but regardless of CBC’s verdict, I somehow doubt that any court in Canada will see this as a case of discrimination. Immigrants are vetted – and earn points – on the basis of their fluency in the language. The ones who come in without it have ESL training available. ESL training would, theoretically, solve the problem, no? Is it very expensive to provide?Immigrants pay fees to come here – add the cost of ESL training to it.
The nut jobs in Saudi Arabia are building a giant Islamic clock and other stupid stuff. No spare change though for their 3rd rate muslim brothers. Besides this is the Swat region, not exactly the most peaceful minded area of Pakistan. Allahs unfettered hand has delivered a massive blow. And Pakistan has a lot of cash – the Yanks have sent over a billion in the last year – just look at the size of their military. Surely this is the ideal time for some local wealth redistribution.
BTW: Qatar has some experience in island building, that might help…
BTW: Qatar has some experience in island building, that might help…