“This first approach was fairly tentative—largely nonviolent protesters dipping their toes into the water. Initially, the protesters were outnumbered by the cops, but then as more and more of them converged, they eventually outnumbered the police and started drawing closer and closer to the line: taking pictures, chanting, singing, screaming invective. “
More at The Torontoist (h/t subversible).
Not so related; “Sir, I’m going to ask you to move along. There’s really nothing to see here.” I’m staying off that particular bandwagon, but then again, I don’t pull over at the side of the road to rubberneck at accidents, either. In short, what appears to have started out as a police request to “move along” rapidly escalates into mockery and a overwhelming show of police non-violence.
“But civilian photographers will be rebuffed with a force in equal contradistinction to that not being applied to the rioters themselves.”
Except, you know, there was no force. They stuck around for 5 minutes and left under their own steam.
(By the way – who the hell picks a G20 weekend to hold their pro-Israel rally? I thought Jews were the smart ones?)
i’d say that the direction of most of the comments here are not exactly where i expected.
here is a link to the bravest, and most honest man in toronto. he speaks for those of us who actually are local.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NZBTn6pnGM&feature=player_embedded
Well Kate, the same question might be asked of you. People stand up for their rights and you have a hissy fit.
Sure Arnie and Kathy and Mike and thousands of other Torontonians could have sucked it up for the greater glory of PMSH’s billion dollar photo op. They could co-operate by pretending not to notice when some cops beat up a visiting British journalist.
They could forebear from wearing black.
They could have ID cards hanging from their necks to make the cops tough job easier.
They could leave their cameras, cell phones and backpacks at home.
In fact, if they wanted to really co-operate with the authorities, they could have just stayed inside their own homes. That way the police could easily tell who the criminals were.
There is a strong cleavage within the conservative interest between people who assert that individual rights and autonomy matters and those who believe in order and an authoritarian state.
It is pretty clear which side of that divide you come down on Kate.
Good thing BTJ didn’t join this thread – otherwise the thread could get long.
Jay,
False choice…..
Take a deep breath because its all over now.
The courts will rule on the cases that have started. We will see just what if anything gets trimmed back, my bet is very little if anything. I am not aware of any major changes to laws that came out of the Quebec City debacle, where the police response was much more robust, that should be your first hint.
This wasnt the erosion of rights you are calling it, and the court rulings should back that up. The city is up and functioning fine and it wont affect Pride week one bit, nor the 10,000 person Muslim convention that is happening soon.
no, Jay, it isn’t a ‘right’ to wear black or red or any colour; this situation has nothing to do with fundamental rights. It has to do with common sense and a respect for a volatile situation and time.
The weekend was a time of demonstrations and anarchy. The space was a large part of Toronto from the Bloor St U of T area down to the Lakeshore; that’s a large space.
The demonstrations had no opportunity and they must have known this, on being noticed by the G20 delegates; they were there primarily to be noticed by Canadian media. The thugs had little interest in the G20; they were using the event and space as a cover for their adrenalin fun of destruction.
Therefore, it is responsible of a citizen, exercising common sense, to make this weekend easier on the police and other citizens. Don’t go down to the area to rubber-neck; don’t wear black and have earphones and carry on conversations with a hidden other..and don’t get carried away with the notion of ‘rights’ to do any of this. It has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with responsibility and common sense and yes, respect for others.
And your either-or conservative image is false; both individuals and a common set of rules exist.
It is offensive of you to claim that the G20 was a photo-op for Harper; it’s held every year; it does have a vital role; are you claiming that each and every time all it is is a photo-op for the leader of whichever country hosts it?
skip – the reasonable grounds in Mike’s case were his visible similarities to the Black Bloc: in the demonstration zone area and time; wearing black; using an electronic communication device. The police had a duty to ask him for ID and ask a few questions about why he was there.
Sure, such attributes of similarity are on the surface, indeed only superficial, but in that time and space, they moved out of the superficial and into a primary set of attributes-of-Black Bloc activity. For Mike – as well as Kathy and Arnie in their actions – to take such offense was arrogant.
Sorry, but “order” comes at the expense of individual rights and autonomy? That’s a, er, kind of hysterical dichotomy.
But is the consensus here really that Kathy and Arnie’s run-in with the police is equivalent to Mike Brock’s?
You know, I just want to dispel this little myth that’s going around that downtown Toronto was “out of control”. The riot, as it were, was always contained to a very small area at any given time, no larger than a quarter city block.
When the small riot broke out, the police abandoned their police cars, and hundreds of police on bicycles simply retreated. Allowing the small merry band of hoodlums to practice their window smashing and conveniently-abandoned police car burning to go on unmolested for the next three hours.
There was 15,000 police in downtown Toronto at that time. And maybe about 25 engaged in vandalism. True, there was a crowd walking with the vandals, mostly of union activities who were egging them on. But they actual true size and disposition of the hoodlums was such that it would have taken all but 5 minutes for a group of 100 police to bring it to a quick end.
You know, I never thought I’d be saying this, but when I go back and recount what I saw unfold on Queen Street, with the police racing their two cruisers up the street, followed by hundreds of police on bikes, followed by the inexplicable abandonment of the cruisers and subsequent retreat of all the officers on the bicycles. And not just that, but the constant retreat for three hours.
The police were retreating and clearing the path in front of the rioters for three hours. They even left two abandoned police cars with their equipment on and engines running at Bay and King for the hoodlums to destroy.
There was no bloody police at that intersection, at all! The absolute heart of the financial district, and only two blocks north of the security fence, the police had just vacated and cleared it into a veritable ghost town.
Let’s put this “chaos” into perspective, here.
Kate said: “But in general, yes – one of our responsibilities as citizens in a free and democratic society is to recognize when co-operation is necessary for the safety and security of your community. When it’s time to set aside your precious dignity and help them get the bigger job done. Because your community, perhaps the lives of others, may depend upon it.”
Absolutely true. And that’s what Mike did, he’s providing an after-action report. That’s what I do too, when called upon.
But living next to Caledonia you watch a row of riot cops facing -away- from the screaming guys burning stuff and throwing rocks at the cops, facing -toward- the people who are standing there doing no one damn thing, you get a different feeling about the cops.
In fact the Hamilton police force showed up for that particular fracas , and refused to follow OPP orders to protect the car burning rioters from the evil townspeople. They said “What is wrong with this picture!” got back in their trucks and went back to Hamilton. Hamilton police have not been back to Caledonia since.
Hamilton police have successfully removed the same Mohawk demonstrators/land thieves from the Ancaster fair grounds that are still squatting on the DCE with OPP protection. There are no illegal smoke shacks along the border the Six Nations Reserve shares with Hamilton.
Illegal smoke shacks line Highway 6 in Caledonia, some on private land without the land-owner’s permission. Said landowners have been charged by the county, too.
Take a look at what Garry McHale has been getting from these guys. They tackled him and put him down like rugby stars a couple years ago, chucked him in jail for 48 hours and charged him with all kinds of crazy stuff. He beat it all in court and presently Julian Fantino, head of the OPP is the one in court. Garry McHale’s crimes to date consist of standing on public land holding a Canadian flag, taking video of OPP cops being hit in the backs of their heads by rocks and bottle as they protect the protesters from nothing, and having a web site.
Take a look at what’s going down with the windmills, that’s right here where I live too. People in my town of Cayuga are getting pre-crime calls from the OPP (of Caledonia fame) warning them not to cause any trouble for the windmill guys.
But the Indians can block the 403 in Ancaster all Saturday morning, and the OPP don’t just let them do it, they help them do it. The Tamils block the Gardiner, no problem. The Black Block burn cop cars and loot stores, no problem!
Are the OPP rank and file happy about this? No! Do they still take the money and follow the illegal orders? Hell yeah they do.
So I don’t know Kate. My alarm threshold got crossed a while ago with all this, the G20 is just more of it. I still don’t have my promised gun registry dismantlement, I still don’t have a right to own my own house, and I know for sure I don’t have any rights with the cops if they find it inconvenient.
Maybe my sojourn in America messed up my mind, but its hard for me to compare Arizona to Ontario and not conclude we have a serious problem with high level police corruption and loss of human rights here. If I have more freedom as a foreign visitor in Phoenix than I do at home as a citizen, and I do, that is double plus un-good.
Got interrupted three times while writing that last piece and it threw off my thought process a bit. What I was actually trying to say in, not so many words, is that I am starting to believe the police intentionally let the chaos ensue Saturday afternoon.
If you insert yourself into chaos, don’t be surprised if shi* happens…..it’s that simple.
If you’re smart, you’ll stay the hell home. The cops didn’t need rubberneckers adding to the frenzy.
And we saw today at the news conference, proof of how “peaceful” those protesters were….did you happen to see all the weapons confiscated?
So, what were the ‘legitimate’ protesters protesting against anyway?
Mike, you are probably right as what I am hearing is the cars were empty of gas and had flat tires. Some officers at the G20 said they were left there to delay and give something for the Black Block to destroy.
Phantom, I have been following and get regular updates from McHale. The OPP themselves are pissed off with McGuinty, who IMHO is a disgraceful coward. Fantino, who I used to respect here in Toronto, is a huge disappointment as the OPP Commissioner. He should have had the balls to resign rather than have his rep in tatters over Caledonia.
McGuinty has now let illegal cig sales reach 50% of all sales in Ontario according to the RCMP. The billions lost in taxes will be taken from you and I.
EMG – yes, order comes at the expense of individual actions; that’s the norm in every realm of life, whether it be chemical, biological or societal. There’s a fine balance between the requirements of all systems (chemical, biological, societal) for both modes: individual freedom and common order or normative habits.
phantom – the behaviour of the police at Caledonia was and is due to the political orders of McGuinty. Same thing with the vandalism on Queen St in Toronto – the political orders of Miller and Blair ‘not to confront’. This latter order changed the next day, after Miller saw the anger of Torontonians that the police had ‘allowed’ this to happen..and he OK’d police confrontation. There’s an article in the Toronto Sun
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/06/28/14549421.html
that outlines the anger of the regular police at being restrained and told to stand down by their bosses and not deal with the rioters.
phantom – ‘right to own your own house’? What does that mean? Owning a home isn’t a human right; it’s a financial ability. Sorry but I’m unclear about your comment.
Some officers at the G20 said they were left there to delay and give something for the Black Block to destroy.
To be honest, it was actually my first thought when I saw it. And I’m not prone to buying into conspiracy theories. The first time they abandoned the cars, I was like “ooooooookay”.
Then when I saw the police had just left two more for them upstream, I started thinking it had to be staged. And then I was like, “there’s no way”. But now I’m returning to my first impression.
“There is a strong cleavage within the conservative interest between people who assert that individual rights and autonomy matters and those who believe in order and an authoritarian state. It is pretty clear which side of that divide you come down on Kate.”
Jay, conservatives want smaller government. We want the end of the nanny state. We do believe that individual rights and autonomy matter.
But you cannot place “order” on the opposite side of that divide. Individual rights and autonomy cannot exist without order.
The more voluntary order that a community generates for itself, the less demand there is for state presence and services. Think volunteer fire departments.
Under a small government model, hundreds of young men would voluntarily hand over identification and backpacks to aid the efficiency of a police search.
In the big government model, they wait while scores of bureaucrats work to issue mandated warrants, while dozens of government lawyers argue ways to redraft them, as thousands of government employees maintain millions of names in the databases, and thousands of human resources people and management track seniority and vacation days and grievances and …
Which was it you wanted again?
I am with you on small government Kate. (And of course no real conservative government would have wasted a billion plus dollars on hosting the farce which is the G-20 in downtown Toronto or anywhere else.)
And I agree with you that rights require order; but not at any price. What we saw was first an abdication of the state’s responsibility to maintain order and then an absurd over reaction. In both cases individual rights suffered.
Critically, however, despite the temptation to “go along to get along”, Kathy, Arnie and Mike all stood up for their rights when the police went over the top. In doing that they were preserving our rights and posing no threat to order whatsoever.
What is unfortunate is that more people dd not stand up for their rights not to have thugs breaking windows on Saturday. A few determined individuals (and some fungo bats) would have put an end to the smashing glass antics of the Black bloc weanies.
You example of young men voluntarily handing over id and backpacks seems to me to smack of the “if you have nothing to hide” logic of authoritarian regimes. It is the same logic which suggests that the state place video monitoring cameras to search for crime and that all men over ten have their DNA on file so we can more effectively apprehend rapists and other criminals. It is the logic of a police state.
Jay, why don’t you simply address my statements on their base merits? This isn’t a philosophical debate, it’s a real event with real people and established facts. No DNA was taken, no need to introduce it now.
Handing over your backpack and ID on request does not smack of an authoritarian state.
It is saying “I am aware of what has transpired over the past couple of days, have considered the alternatives,the fact that there are unknown numbers of criminals still at large who have promised to do more damage, there is the possibility that police are acting on intelligence that I am not privy to, and it is the best interests of myself and my community to see that they are caught.”
Okay Kate, but how does cooperating help them in any way? It requires me abdicating my rights and wasting my time. Since there were no weapons in my bag, and I am not black bloc, what would my cooperation provide?
Really. That’s the crux of it. My cooperation will not contribute to the cooperation of the assailant. It offers nothing. It’s obedience for obedience sake.
Considering we do have the right to refuse warrantless, suspicionless searches, Kate — and you have not challenged that legal assertion — you are merely advocating a course of action that will cause the police to rely on illegal measures for investigation.
As such, evidence collected as part of an illegal search can and often is found to be inadmissible in court. Therefore, complying with these illegal searches does not contribute to upholding any tenet of justice in my estimation.
It is nothing more than an exercise is making the public obedient to authority.
For cons like Kate, “order” is code for obedience to whatever authority Kate happens to like today. The cop-fetish overriding any pro-freedom sensibilities is a hallmark of ‘conservatism’. Reason magazine does an excellent job of documenting the abuses by cops that many authoritarians like Kate turn a blind eye to, or in the case of Sheriff Arpaio, praise.
“Considering we do have the right to refuse warrantless, suspicionless searches, Kate — and you have not challenged that legal assertion — you are merely advocating a course of action that will cause the police to rely on illegal measures for investigation.”
I’m not the one who surrendered their bag.
You did.
“skip – the reasonable grounds in Mike’s case were his visible similarities to the Black Bloc: in the demonstration zone area and time; wearing black; using an electronic communication device. The police had a duty to ask him for ID and ask a few questions about why he was there.”
Nonsense. That’s profiling. Reasonable grounds requires more than a similarity to alleged perps, especially in the circumstance when there maybe 100 diverse perps. The police had no such duty, and nothing in Mike’s description provided any more than a perhaps he could be. That’s not enough for any of the scrutiny he went under. Laws were broken on both sides over the weekend – it was not a good couple of days. I’ll remind you that I make these decisions every day.
There a quite a number of better ways this weekend could have been handled. It was suggesated to the police that the idea of such a large fence was stupid to begin with – that they set themselves up for the very thing they experience – and indefensible perimeter.
Had they established mobile squads of equipped (but not riot gear equipped) officers (maybe 15 to 20) moving together through and with the protesters, more or less amiably, they could have kept a chill on a lot of the trouble. Left the riot guys to hold the line near the fences and redirect. The cars were burned because the officers driving them allowed themselves to get boxed in. They abandoned them when they became a target and the windows were smashed. Although a few other officers came to their aid, by then, all they could do was cut and run. They didn’t leave them for the black bloc to play with, they couldn’t rescue them. It wasn’t black bloc anywayu on the cars – just your typical TO street detritus.
Kate,
The point Kate, is that I was under threat of arrest. Given the fact they had demonstrated they were willing to arrest other people under the charge of “breach of peace” for any sort of intransigence, I as you accurately pointed out earlier, chose not to inconvenience my wife, daughter, co-workers and such as I sat in a detention centre for 23 hours.
At which point they would have just released me and dropped the charges to avoid actually arraigning me in front of judge, who would probably go apeshit on them.
Easier to bluff and hope that I don’t have tens of thousands of dollars to pursue a civil action. And you know what? They’re right.
So the point is they abused their power, and I don’t have the time or resources to call their bluff.
When you think about it Kate, that actually makes the situation worse. Not better.
What I find astonishing is the constant referral to ‘my rights’ of people such as Mike. They adamantly refuse to recognize that the security situation was fragile and the police had a duty to provide security. Remember, Mike, the police don’t have a thing to do with providing your ‘fundamental rights’; that’s the job of the legal system. The police provide security. So, when the police ask for ID, I’m stunned by the arrogance – and I mean the word – of those who claim that such a request is a violation of ‘their rights’, is an ‘intrusion of privacy’ and other nonsense.
The police didn’t know, Mike, that you carried no weapons; that you were not ‘black bloc’. Your Starbucks coffee couldn’t protect you. So, why are you so adversarial and foaming about ‘your rights’. Not one single right of yours was violated despite your constant claims of such.
You’ve brought up various Charter sections – which are clearly invalid in this instance. You’ve referred to court cases – equally not relevant in this instance. No, the search was not illegal and there’s nothing you can come up with to prove that it was. Repeating your claim that it was illegal ..argumentum ad nauseum is the term for that fallacy. I don’t see any depth to your claim that the police ‘abused their powers’ and equally, no validity to your suggestion that a judge would have agreed with you.
skip – what’s wrong with profiling? Is it racial or ethnic? No. So, your argument is empty.
Looking for similar patterns among a set of attributes is a basic SCIENTIFIC mode of data gathering and analysis. Mike’s attributes fit with a set of attributes that defined the Black Bloc activists. Therefore the police had every right to question him and he had no right, as a citizen, to refuse or take offense. Again, not one single right, fundamental or legal, was violated by the police.
Oh, and could you provide evidence that the people who smashed the cars were ‘typical TO street detritus’? What about those who smashed the windows on that same day?
Your Monday morning suggestion of ‘what they ought to have done’ is a suggestion without proof that it would have worked. The point is, the fence worked; the anarchist thugs who came to Toronto to smash and destroy weren’t interested in the fence. They were focused on ‘capitalist stores’ ..not the Metro Convention Centre.
Skip says “Nonsense. That’s profiling”.
Well, in case he hasn’t noticed, the unwillingness (actually prohibition) to employ this tactic is precisely why we in the free world are in this frigging mess, and digging ourselves deeper, and why it will assuredly lead us to our ultimate demise!
There are situations when preventative policing can be for the greater good, even though someone’s panties may become somewhat constrictive when being thusly inconvenienced.
Suck it up, Buttercup.
All that said, Blair and the rest of the brass have to wear this debacle, and have to be severely scrutinized for their ham-handidness. Some bold leadership would be a novel and welcome idea.
“…..I admit to being shocked by your attitude on this, Kate. It doesn’t make sense to me. On a personal level, even, given the fact I personally supported you, both morally and financially in your legal battles…..”
‘Posted by: Mike Brock at June 29, 2010 1:43 PM’
How very interesting. What exactly does the foregoing sentence convey other than since Mike Brock supported Kate financially and morally it is expected that Kate is now obligated to support Mike Brock whether or not Kate agrees with his complaint of being victimized by the police.
Not even subtle coercion.
Well, Mike Brock (and Jay Currie) during the Olympics in Vancouver if either of you (or Kathy) had given such lip to one or four or five of Vancouver’s finest you would have found yourself braced against a wall with a voice whispering in your ear about …”what did you say again ..Miss/Mr..?”
Right. It happened to so many of us in the first day or two that from then on we smiled at any of our guys in blue….. to their faces …
And, the first day when all of the eco twits, the Unionists, et al. joined up with the ‘black bloc’ who commenced wreaking havoc, breaking the huge windows of the Hudson’s Bay Company, etc. then attempted to change clothes and run off, ordinary people went after them and those Bloc thugs were treated to ‘civic action’ which Vancouver’s Finest would never have been allowed to slap upon them.
Yes. From then on there was not one protest that had enough steam in it to even close down half a block.
But. We were all still very respectful of that thin blue line of AUTHORITY and did naughty things behind their backs only.
And, Mike Brock, quite a few ‘innocent’ types ended up being frog marched off to the Van to spend the night in lock-up simply because they howled and whined that they had RIGHTS and did not have to submit to “police enquiries”.
To even suggest the Toronto police were acting on orders from PMHarper to allow the thugs to burn police cars, etc., etc. is pathetic really but not surprising since the owners of that website freedominion have been screeching about this Harper ‘conspiracy’ for days. It is to laugh that those people have the nerve to suggest they are the principled conservatives.
skip
“””Nonsense. That’s profiling.”””
and profiling is thee most valuable tool in the policing/security tool bag, and thusly should be liberally applied
and
Kathy Shaidle acting like the lefty she is, and some are surprized????
I think the spectacle of the so called security force watching countless crimes being commited was a disgrace to all Canadians. In regards to what happened to Mike, Kathy and Arnie, the behavior of police seems pretty typical of the pick low hanging fruit/respect my authority/don’t question me attitude of policing nowadays. But in this particular environment I don’t think it is unreasonable to allow a little bit of latitude to the officers to try and be somewhat productive (even if it is you who is being wrongly hassled). And it isn’t surprising that when someone hangs around an area (even if it wasn’t that close to rioting) that by the sounds of it was pretty much a police dragnet, that the police might encounter you. In Kathy and Arnie’s case the cop was a bit of a dick, they asserted their rights, the cop backed off, no big deal. In Mike’s case the cops were dicks, Mike relinquished his rights “under protest”, cops continue to be dicks but at least no arrest. So Mike who knows/believes in his rights needs to also stand up for his rights, even at the risk of inconvenience, otherwise who else should stand up for them?
Fascinating stuff all around. But I gotta say I’m with Kate on this one for the most part. I have spent some time in police detention (Drunk tank in Vancouver and various other cities in B.C.) I know what arseholes some cops can be when they have total power over you. I finally learned not to let myself end up in those situations. Always go the opposite way of the policeman/woman (moreso). Unless, of course, you need one.
At least the black bloc understand the cops want to get them. Something that is flying over the heads of the “victims” here.
Some of you think that the safest place for thief should be a bench in front of a a 7-11 he just knocked off … because nobody should be questioned there, human rights and all.
My policy with temporary police states like the one currently in TO and the Vancouver olympics is to stay as far away from them as possible. However, there are times when you are living in the middle of a police state as was the case when johnny cretin hosted his fellow dictators in Vancouver for APEC. I lived on the other side of Burrard street from my office and there were large blocks of time when Burrard street was closed. Fortunatly I didn’t have to drive anywhere as I lived a few blocks away but a lot of patients couldn’t get in to see me if they had to drive to access my office. Also, they couldn’t simply cross Burrard street and one had the ludicrous sight of a huge crowd of people held up at a crosswalk for 30 minutes or more before the police would let them cross a totally deserted street — very important to show crowds of gutless sheeple being controlled as the dictators sped by.
The St. Pauls Hospital doctors would have none of this BS and we’d cross away from the crosswalks going from our offices to the hospital and back. With TV cameras around the cops were disinclined to bust us for jaywalking; the whole point of having an office a 2 minute walk from the hospital is so you can get in to see a patient in distress promptly.
One night I was working in my office late and when I thought the coast was clear decided to walk home with a pack full of charts to work on later than night. I had one of cretins goons stop me and ask me to open my pack and I let him know that this was unlawful detention and he was proposing an illegal search. In any case, he had absolutely no right to see the patient charts I was carrying without a court order. We stared each other down until I told him to either arrest me, or get the f*** out of my way. I refused to provide him with any identification and only indicated that I had come from my medical office across the street and, as far as where I was going he could watch which way I walked. There was a large group of witnesses from SPH ER close by and I waved to the people I knew and the scowling gestapo member got out of my way. I suspect that my being a doctor may have had something to do with my getting away with this but I’ve found that standing up to cops has been the best policy in the past especially when they have no grounds to detain you. He could have given me a ticket for jaywalking but none of the other doctors doing what I did got one during this police state period and I think I would have been able to fight it on those grounds
Turns out that slick willies plane was late that night and hopefully he saw me give him an upraised middle finger when the motorcade drove by.
If I’d known how much this abuse of Vancouver to host dictators would have had in decreasing the number of patients I saw during that time I would have just closed my office and headed to the BC interior for the duration of the Vancouver police state.
It wouldn’t take many people standing up for their rights to change the behavior of the police and what really struck me during the time of APEC was how many docile sheeple there were in Vancouver.
AFAIK, police have no right to detain you when you’re just peaceably walking down the street especially when there’s no crime that has been committed in the area you’re walking (well APEC was the city wide crime but I don’t look at all like the Shawinigan strangler).
“It wouldn’t take many people standing up for their rights to change the behavior of the police”
Yes, but maybe not in the way you intended.
Society can handle a few self-centered prima donnas. But if everyone acts that way you get either Gaza, where the truly bad actors operate with impunity or totalitarianism where the people get sufficiently angry at the bad guys and tired of the prima donnas.