The Boston Globe offers a shocking statistic;
Although Gaza daily requires 680,000 tons of flour to feed its population, Israel had cut this to 90 tons per day by November 2007, a reduction of 99 percent.
You don’t need to be a math genius to figure out that if Gaza has a population of 1.5 million, as the authors also note, then 680,000 tons of flour a day come out to almost half a ton of flour per Gazan, per day.
It could be worse! “It’s a good thing the eeevil Zionists didn’t cut off the essential Stay Puft marshmallow supply.”
Johnny,
The issue was the unbelievable number that got printed in a “legit” newspaper. The kind of newspaper that is one of record and lands on peoples doorsteps everyday. Its brand is supposed to mean the facts are checked.
That was the point of the post IMHO. A grossly inaccurate story that some easy math should have shown is inccorrect and caused people to ask questions.
The theory is that stuff like this gets printed as gospel because there is a pre conceived notion, Israeli’s bad Gazans good…..the only other alternative is that newspapers should be treated with lots of skepticism and therefore arent really deserving of their reputations and journals of record.
“So, with that in mind, is it still a laughing matter, Kate?”
Set aside for the moment that the item is about misreporting, not food shortages – but yes, it is. They were given $300 to cross to Egypt and buy all the flour they wanted.
They brought home street bikes, cigarettes, and flooring.
Before everyonr here gets bent out of shape perhaps you should Google the Berlin Airlift. I know most of you were born well after the event but just maybe when you educate yourself you’ll find that the U.S. of A. has been shipping aid all over the world for the better part of the last century and continues in this century. It’s a little point that the leftards seem to miss as they try and skewer the “Great Satan”. If the media are supposedly to blame and the media are supposedly run by Jewish interests it seems a bit of a conundrum, that the Palistinians are getting all the ‘positive press’.
A little historical fact from Churchill about Palestine is in order:
“The Desert Bloom – An insult to human dignity?”
From Churchill’s Parrot blog (Excerpts)
In 1939, before the British House of Commons Sir Winston related:
“Yesterday the Minister responsible descanted eloquently in glowing passages upon the magnificent work which the Jewish colonists have done. They have made the desert bloom. They have started a score of thriving industries, he said. They have founded a great city on the barren shore. They have harnessed the Jordan and spread its electricity throughout the land.”
But surely, all this Zionist prosperity came at the expense of the Arab Palestinians? In fact, quite the opposite is true, as Sir Winston pointed out:
“So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population.”
This fact is confirmed by many sources, including the Zionism and Israel Encyclopedic Dictionary whose excellent analysis of the Arab Revolt in Palestine states that by 1937:
“Palestine contained more Arabs than ever before in its history, and they enjoyed a higher standard of living than ever before…”
BUT (here’s where things start getting ugly)…
“…but they could only be supported as long as they were dependent on the economic activity of the Jewish minority and the investments of the Zionist movement. At the same time, the Arabs of Palestine insisted that this Jewish minority was dispossessing them and tried to rid themselves of the Jews and the Zionist enterprise. The Arabs would say that they had been impoverished by Zionist “dispossession,” but in fact they enjoyed a higher standard of living and faster economic growth than their neighbors in Syria, Jordan or Egypt.”
So what was the cause of increasing Arab Palestinian dependence upon the Zionist economy? As detailed in the 2005 essay Zionism and Its Impact, Ami Isseroff explains that Arab Palestinian infighting, disorganization, and obsession with blaming the Jews resulted in “the almost total lack of constructive effort in building up their own institutions, investing in the Arab sector of the Palestinian economy and creating their own ‘state in the making’ as the Zionists did.” Envy instead of industry possessed the Arab Palestinian population, and – as is usually the case in such instances – violence erupted.
“…an insult to human dignity.”
Thus spake Ahmadinejad: The Zionist venture and support of such a thing is “an insult to human dignity.” In other words, to employ ingenuity, commitment, hard work, dedication, industry, wisdom, loyalty, and good will to create one of the world’s most prosperous societies is “an insult to human dignity.” To share one’s wealth and make peace with one’s enemies – Israel established diplomatic relations with West Germany on May 12, 1965 (causing several Arab nations to break ties with West Germany on May 13) and Egypt in 1979 (causing Egyptian President Anwar Sadat to be shot to death by Islamic fundamentalists) – is an “insult to human dignity.” To ask nothing more than the right to tend one’s own people and business on a parcel of land slightly smaller than New Jersey amidst a vast Middle East landscape is “an insult to human dignity.” Fascinating.
One is compelled to ask then, how exactly do you define “human dignity” Mr. Ahmadinejad? Does it consist of the chaos, violence, poverty, and misery that has characterized much of the Islamic world throughout its history? Murder-suicide on an international scale? Repression of women, people of non-Muslim faith, and homosexuals? Being only a parrot, perhaps it’s all beyond me but as best I can tell, there is little of humanity or dignity in any of that.
Our Conclusion
Now let us re-examine Mr. Ahmadinejad’s original statement via Aristotelian syllogism:
Major premise: The creation of the Zionist Regime is an insult to human dignity
Minor Premise: The continuation of the existence of the Zionist Regime is an insult to human dignity
Conclusion: The Zionist Regime is itself antithetical to human dignity
Very well then. Let us for a moment remove the element of “Jew” from the concept of Zionism. The above syllogism then would mean that a society that employs behaviors, attitudes, beliefs, philosophies, and actions which result in the well-being and prosperity of those employing them are an insult to human dignity. Is this what Mr. Ahmadinejad intends to say? Likely not. For even he would have to acknowledge – at least publicly – that societies such as these comprise mankind’s only hope for survival. Adding the element of “Jew” back into the equation, however, renders in Mr. Ahmadinejad’s mind – and the minds of those who agree with him – such societies antithetical to human dignity and justifies their destruction.
Here we see plainly the effects – like rabies – of Racism Gone Wild. This is what we call, “Islamania.” This is what we are fighting. And this, if we fail to succeed in that fight, will quite likely be the end of human civilization.
——————–
Quite right. racism and hatred, especially institutionalized, sanctified, hatred by holy writ means maximum destruction. This is what Palestinian children are breast fed on. And until it is agreed throughout the world that this behaviour and the ideology that spawns it are absolutely unacceptable, there can be no ME peace.
They are making paste, to glue down all those carpets.
The latest ‘peace’ initiative offered by Fatah:
(IsraelNN.com) Fatah chief and PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas’s PA television has been repeatedly broadcasting a hate-filled music video calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from Israel.
“My enemy, oh snake! Around the land, you are coiled. You have no choice, oh enemy, but to leave my country,” is the refrain in the video, which has been broadcast on a daily basis for the past several months, according to Palestinian Media Watch (PMW).
“The song’s refrain, ‘My enemy, oh enemy,’ is repeated over and over throughout the song. Israel is not even given the courtesy of a name, but is tagged with such labels as ‘treacherous,’ ‘imperialism’ and a ‘coiled snake,'” PMW Director Itamar Marcus points out. “The Palestinian is portrayed as a heroic victim who courageously confronts the evil ‘enemy’ Israel.”
The song incites Arabs living under Fatah’s rule in Judea and Samaria to fight to the death to rid the land of Jews, assuring them that, through this, they will ultimately prevail: “You have no choice, oh enemy, but to leave my country,” it says.
For you willful revisionists out there.
The Gaza strip was captured by Israel and held as a buffer zone against Egypt who had attacked Israel in the 6days war. After decades of successive agreements and concessions by Israel the strip was abandoned by Israel under pressure by the international community to concede the real estate to the Arabs. The Only reason they did this was under the false promise of peaceful behaviour by the arabs under the supposed control of the PA but actually under the thumb of the HAMAS terrorist group and other assorted thugs.
The Israeli government went so far as to forcefully remove ANY Jews who tried to hold their property in Gaza.
Since the Arabs have proven that they have no intention of respecting ANY agreement …. why should Israel do anything whatsoever to sustain them?
The Israeli settlements in the west bank are not built by the Israeli government they are established by private citizens who have every right to do so.
There is NO Palestinian state and the Arabs who have been complaining so fervently about Jews stealing their land have neither taken the opportunity or initiative to develop that land for themselves.
The ONLY reason for partitions is the violent and illegal behaviour of the Arabs.
The only thing the Arabs have done is destroy what the Jews have built and then turn around and whine about not having any means of prosperity.
As for that article the 0.012lbs of flour would make about 1 lb of noodles and more flatbread than you’d care to eat. That also does not take into account other things like cereals and rice… not to mention meat,fish and dairy that goes into the Arab controlled area. The article is just another in the LONG list of uncritical and factually empty publishing of propaganda from so called progressives and social activists who are only too willing to take the side of real villains in this slice of history.
One could believe that wherever this story originated, someone took a number, twisted it this way and that, made a mistake, and ended up with something ludictous.
But.. it’s clear that the target audience- pro Palestinian westerners- wasn’t interested in reasonable sounding numbers, or they would have picked up on this themselves.
Are there any “real” figures at all? Does anyone really believe that a political entity that can’t even control it’s own territory or provide basic services, divided amongst mutually hostile armed gangs, rife with violence and corruption and never known for honesty, is going to be able to develop accurate figures on food consumption?
Or anything else?
I am convinced that numbers cooked up by Palestinians are simply BS and nothing more, figures tossed out to appease an audience that seems to believe them.
Ben
It’s more likely that Palestinians simply
Re “Here we see plainly the effects – like rabies – of Racism Gone Wild … until it is agreed throughout the world that this behaviour and the ideology that spawns it [Islamania] are absolutely unacceptable, there can be no ME peace” by Irwin Daisy
Good post, well said. I can’t believe it, but I actually agree 100% with Irwin.
It’s seems most plausible that the metric tonnes of flour (340 MT) was converted to pounds and just reported incorrectly (quite likely intentionally…given the track record). Then with Israel reducing the supply to 90 MT, we see that they’ve reduced the supply by 75%.
That works out to the 0.12 pounds per person per day…mighty scarce. What would that be…two slices of bread?
The point is…99% of the people reading this bit of news (680,000 MT reduced to 90 MT) wouldn’t have picked up on the error and would have damned the Israelis. The Globe will just say “oops, sorry, honest mistake” but in very fine print somewhere where no one will notice…but the damage has been done.
Another instance in the long and lamentable catalogue of media innumeracy. If writers don’t bother to check their facts, and editors don’t bother to edit them, then why should we bother to read it?
As for the trivia of this particular story … it has been suggested that pounds got changed to tons somewhere along the line. Since the UN and other “aid” agencies operate in metric, it’s more likely that kilograms got changed to metric tonnes, which American journalists changed to tons. Once again, of course nobody bothered to actually run the numbers against reality, or even to consider that flour has water added to it before it’s cooked and eaten.
Kudos Irwin … It was in fact the embarrassment of the neighboring Arab states over the success of the Israeli development that helped motivate them to try to bring it down in 1967.
Furthering their own embarrassment by getting their asses handed to them by the tiny nation.
And that’s why they continue to support the anti-Israeli insurgents …. easier and less ambarrassing when they can blame it all on the Jews for making victims of the resident Arabs! eh?
irwin daisy – for heaven’s sake, it may be a minor point, but if you want to use the Aristotelian syllogism as a supporting framework for an argument, at least do it correctly. What you provided isn’t a syllogism. Just because you make three assertions (which are essentially mimetic of each other) doesn’t mean that it’s a logical argument. It isn’t. It remains three similar assertions.
Equally. your assertion that Zionism, in itself, promotes well-being, etc, etc.. is logically invalid. Zionism is not about behaviour or about the structure of a political system; it’s about a ‘homeland’. Now, if you discussed the term ‘civic’ structure…that’s different.
Back to the statistics. Thanks johnny ringo for the suggestion that it’s a conversion from tonnes to pounds to tonnes…
ET,
You should take the time to read before radical criticism. I posted excerpts from an essay at ‘churchill’s parrot blog’ as noted. I then commented on it. Whatever ‘assertions’ you site, I suppose you should take it up with the writer. However, I understand your irritation. It seems Churchill’s eyewitness account of the Palestinian situation reveals how wrongheaded your hypothesis is?
Jimbo, I try to find root cause. I believe it is in the written texts and teaching of the Islamic trilogy, to an audience that is mostly kept in the dark to further a malevolent purpose. I admit, I sometimes come across as harsh, for that I apologise.
Thanks for your post.
ET @ @ 2:17
Sigh…I am beginning to understand that some people on some subjects have a point of view and do not want to actually think about what is suggested.
I did NOT suggest int.aid shoud cease. I gave one idea as to how the Palestinians and int.community can help even more. You are looking at 1.6 million (aaah – oh my gosh,there’s too many!)people and not breaking it down into what can be done. If you stop and think ET, yes every home in Toronto and Palistine could supply their veggies “for a season” if they grew their own in some kind of container or garden. What the heck do you think the town dwellers or 1st year pioneers in the 1800’s did to get through their first winter?! I’ll answer that so that I’m not misunderstood again: they put in small gardens. Some of them even had chickens or rabbits. And the Palestinians would still have int.aid. It was a suggestion on how they could begin to help themselves(not suggesting that not a single soul in Palestine does nothing). And it does have to do with victimhood. If you do nothing but put your hand out when aid comes your way you are a victim.
A pertinent aside: Maybe a discussion with Nepali mountain people would broaden your perspcetive a bit. These are millions (about 22 million) who live in much worse conditions than Palestinians. They do not receive food aid, very little health aid and not likely to in the near future.
Int.aid is little more than a stop gap measure. You cannot improve life for people by handouts. You have to teach the man (woman or child) to fish to feed him(them) for a lifetime.
That was my point based on experience and the experiences of others both in other countries working and living under abject poverty and those whose families were pioneers.
ET
you do wade in were you are not expert, don’t you
so let me keep it simple for you
1.6 million arabs/pals could never grow enough food to sustain them selves in such a small area
now try 1.6 million Jews in the same area, they would be exporting food after they had a very full belly
or try 1.6 million dutchmen, and you would believe the possibilities!!!!!!
Andrea. Thanks for your suggestions. However..
The Gaza people DO have gardens; indeed, they even grow citrus crops for export. However, the border closures have prevented exports. Water, which is required for irrigation, is limited to household use.
They do, as well, keep chickens, sheep and goats. And cows.
However, with a land base of that size, they can’t supply most of their food (eg, grain crops): or other requirements.
Indeed, the emergence of market and trade in the world enabled an explosive increase in population everywhere it has emerged on this planet. Do you know how much of our fruits and vegetables are imported in Canada? (Sorry, I can’t abide the term ‘veggies’).
And – people don’t live on peas and cucumbers. Your stories of early life aren’t relevant; the population base is different.
I don’t need patronizing lectures on the welfare dependency results of aid, international or not. And, since I’m an anthropologist, I suspect that I have a fair bit of knowledge of the economy and ecology of just about every people on this planet. So, your Nepalese example…
Irwin daisy – Whether you or someone else made up that ‘syllogism’, you’re still responsible for posting it as such a form of Argument. You used it to ‘prove a point’. My point was that it isn’t a syllogism, Aristotelian or not. And it proves nothing.
I equally disagree with the great Churchill’s stated political agenda about the Utopia of the result of Zionism, and opt instead for his unspoken agenda, which was to get the British the heck out of having to stay in the ME. I’m sure you recall the explosive activities of the Zionists against the British.
As for your reliance on the text, we’ve been through this before – and I strongly disagree with analyzing a society and population via their artifacts; that’s superficial ‘cultural or symbolic anthropology/sociology’. Nope.
gym – could you provide some proof of your assertions? Thanks.
GYM – if I were you, I would not provide ET with any “proof of your assertions” until she provides some “proof of [her own] assertions”. She is very good at not backing up her own assertions but insisting that anyone who disagrees with her assertions provide “proof”. For a recent example, see ET’s assertions in reaction to Andrea’s comments.
Da proof is da proof….
Do proof is in da bag! In da bag a flour!
Here is a little exercise for all of you debating here. Go to google earth and download the program, fire it up and then go to the Gaza strip. It is really funny(tragic) that there is so much agriculture being carried on in Israel and yet just across the border in Egypt it is sparce by comparison. It could be that the Holocaust taught the Jews to rely on themselves and not on the ‘goodwill’ of others. Perhaps the Palistinians will have to endure a Holocaust of their own before they can understand the meaning of self-reliance. Then again maybe they are already experiencing their own Holocaust courtesy of the other Arab states. After all is said and done it was the Arab states that ensured they would be no two state solution in the Mid-east fifty years ago.
Do none of you realize how much flour it takes to make a single carpet? I realize weaving spaghetti is a lost art, but obviously the Palestinians are trying to revive it. Give credit where credit is due…
There are few things that annoy me more than innumeracy. The mistake made in the newspaper article was so egregious that one has to suspect every other statement in the same article. The authors are obviously incapable of logical thought as the necessary wetware routines to perform such simple arithmetic should have been laid down around the 2nd or 3rd grade in elementary school.
It doesn’t help that in a discussion on innumeracy that one finds the assertion by ET that the average flour consumption by the average Pakistani is 7.8 tons/year (or 42.7 lb/day). This number should be .127 tons/person/year which works out to a more reasonable 0.7 lb/person/day.
Lets assume that the average resident of Gaza consumes the same amount of flour as a Pakistani which would give 190500 tons/year for a population of 1.5 million or 522 tons/day. One wonders if the authors of the article had the same neurologic disorder that afflicted those responsible for the Canadian firearms registry but instead of being off by a mere 500X on costs, the Boston Globe article was off by 1303X.
I suspect that many of the problems which afflict democracies could be solved by the simple expedient of requiring every voter to answer a simple skill testing mathematical question before they were allowed to vote.
ET,
There is no Islam, Islamofascism, Islamic theocracy, Islamic terrorism, Shia, Sunni, Mullahs, Imams, Shieks, 911, or daily newspaper headlines without the Quran, Hadith and Sira.
“As for your reliance on the text, we’ve been through this
before – and I strongly disagree with analyzing a society and population via their artifacts”
That statement should be taken out back and shot.
Furthermore ET,
“I’m sure you recall the explosive activities of the Zionists against the British.”
What does that have to do with Churchill’s observations in 1939?
You are irrational on this topic.
It could be that the Holocaust taught the Jews to rely on themselves and not on the ‘goodwill’ of others.
Well, not quite, Israel has received $14,346 each for each man, woman and child in Israel in US aid for the period 1949 – 1996. That’s not including loan guarantees.
ET,
Regardless of whether ‘Churchill’s Parrot’s’ deductive reasoning is flawed or not, the fact remains that the Islamic ideology, based on the writing and teaching from the Islamic trilogy is violently anti-Semetic. And this gives holy justification to Islamic racism, hatred, violence and murder.
This is a fact that is supported by their own texts, shariah law and in most cases, government policy:
For example, the apocalyptic canonical hadith is repeated in the 1988 Hamas Charter (in article 7). It states that if a Jew seeks refuge under a tree or a stone, these objects will be able to speak to tell a Muslim: “There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him!”
As a central anti-Jewish motif, the Koran decrees an eternal curse upon the Jews (Koran 2:61/ 3:112) for slaying the prophets and transgressing against the will of Allah. This motif is coupled to Koranic verses 5:60 and 5:78 which describe the Jews transformation into apes and swine (5:60), having been “…cursed by the tongue of David, and Jesus, Mary’s son” (5:78). The Koranic curse (verses 2:61/3:112) upon the Jews for (primarily) rejecting, even slaying Allah’s prophets, is updated with perfect archetypal logic in the canonical hadith: following the Muslims’ initial conquest of the Jewish farming oasis of Khaybar, one of the vanquished Jewesses reportedly served Muhammad poisoned mutton (or goat), which resulted, ultimately, in his protracted, agonizing death. The Jews’ ultimate sins and punishments are made clear in the Koran: they are the devil’s minions (4:60) cursed by Allah, their faces will be obliterated (4:47), and if they do not accept the true faith of Islam—the Jews who understand their faith become Muslims (3:113)—they will be made into apes (2:65/ 7:166), or apes and swine (5:60), and burn in the Hellfires (4:55, 5:29, 98:6, and 58:14-19).
These are only a fraction of the racist verses and commands found in the Islamic trilogy that have been used throughout history to justify Islamic pograms against the Jews.
I think this Jefferson quote applies to you ET:
“He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science. For one man of science, there are thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined for society. His morality, therefore, was to be formed to this object. He was endowed with a sense of right and wrong merely relative to this. This sense is as much a part of his nature, as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is the true foundation of morality… The moral sense, or conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted indeed in some degree to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required for this: even a less one than what we call Common sense. State a moral case to a ploughman and a professor. The former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules.” –Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787. ME 6:257, Papers 12:15
But as we all know by now, it’s those evil Agrarianists that have caused the whole mess.
Respectfully Irwin, I don’t agree entirely with your root causes. I think they are significant contributing factors, used by others to manipulate people, and achieve their ends.
For root causes, I prefer to go back to the time honoured favourite – greed. It seems anytime and anywhere there’s a lot of international aid flowing, there’s corruption and greed.
It’s an interesting debate, but I’d like to posit that there are some for whom instability in the region mean enormous profits, and they will do whatever it takes to sabotage prospects for peace, including using the Koran (or whatever) to justify actions and manipulate zealots.
irwin daisy – I guess we’ll have to ‘agree to disagree’.
I don’t think that my statement about the analytic mode that I use requires the violent response you advocate (should be taken out and shot). You seem to be ‘imbibing’ the mentality of those Islamic texts. Might I suggest a tad more tolerance for other’s strategies of analysis?
You can quote all the texts you want. That doesn’t change my analytic tactic, which is to explore the economic and political infrastructure in which those texts emerged. And then, to explore the economic and political infrastructure of their extrapolation within the current era, Islamic fascism.
You aren’t interested in such a strategy. You focus solely on the texts – a strategy which I consider woefully inadequate both in understanding causality and in recommending tactics of dealing with Islamism.
When you are confronted with someone else’s analytic tactic, you have one response. Anger. Rather than disagreement and discussion on the issues and the strategies of understanding those issues, you immediately take personal offense at being challenged; [you don’t like being challenged; it’s your way or no way’.
You then move into personal insults and derision.
By the way, why do you consider ‘agrarians’ evil? Agriculture, in its many forms, is basic.
At any rate, I stand by my analytic method. I disagree with yours, because I consider it superficial in that it doesn’t examine causality and therefore, is unable to propose solutions.
Jimbo,
I agree. Mohammad was the first to manipulate the many for his own self-aggrandisement, greed, sex and blood lust. It’s decreed in the Quran, I believe, that 20% of all plunder was to go to Allah and his prophet. As well, Mohammad was allowed as many wives as he wanted (he ended up with around 20), while the average Muslim was permitted up to four.
The fascist Imams, Mullah’s, Sheiks continue this manipulation, with the ever present, uncreated word of Allah to support what they do.
ET,
Give it a break, “taken out and shot” was an expression that a famous lawyer used in court against a dumb question being asked by the opposition. An expression, get it? Otherwise, what, I’m actually advocating capping your typed statements? I’m sorry if I hurt your sensibilities.
As for the rest of your charges, you might check the anger in your own posts.
Furthermore, as others have stated, you make claims and state your opinion without ever offering any facts or proof to back it up. So why should anybody agree with you?
And geez, “Agrarianists” was a joke based on your perpetual ME/Islam claim. Islam is a result of…yada yada yada…and until it moves into a civic mode…yada yada…
The cause is the ideology, supported by the texts and preached by greed head power mongers to people mainly deprived of education and individual freedom. It is not agrarianism.
Based on this there are a variety of solutions, ie reformislam.org, etc. There’s another growing group, the Quranists, I think they’re called, that reject all texts except the Quran. That’s at least hopeful.
irwin daisy – No, I’m not the one who gets emotional and uptight; you are – whenever anyone critiques you.
I provide plenty of evidence for my conclusions. The few who disagree, don’t offer any counter evidence; they just come up with spurious allegations that are without foundation.
You may consider that my focus on ecology is ‘yada yada yada’; that’s your mode of reaction, ie, personal insults. Instead, why don’t you simply say that you disagree with such an analytic strategy? Why make fun of and insult people who don’t agree with you? Why do you make it personal?
I don’t happen to agree with your ‘causality’. I note that you don’t even bother to assume any modesty or lack of arrogance in your assertion. You don’t state that I (Irwin Daisy) THINK, or CONSIDER, or SUGGEST… that ‘the cause is the ideology’. No. For you, the ’cause is the ideology’ is a Universal Truth, which no-one dares to critique.
There are other people, Irwin Daisy, besides you in the world, who think about the situation in the ME. We are as intelligent and learned as you, and we have different analyses of the ME.
You don’t undertand social structures; they don’t emerge and operate within an ideology. The ideology is always the last phase to emerge.
My focus on the economy is an examination of WHY Islam emerged in the 7th century. I happen to think it is an important aspect to consider. I also think that Islamic fascism emerged in the 19th c, due, not to ‘agrarianism’ but to tribalism. Your reaction to me analysis, is to mock it as ‘yada yada yada’. That’s not a very mature or intelligent response.
This means, that in my view, Islamic fascism can be dissipated with the introduction of a civic mode of governance and an industrial economy. The reform of the texts and ideology will then follow. And that is exactly what is happening.
Another area, however, to watch, is the isolation of the ideology from its political and economic base. That is what is happening when Islamism is set up in the West, isolate from its communities by multiculturalism, where it breeds almost as a ‘fungus’. It is very dangerous then, for political, economic and intellectual changes don’t affect it. The only thing one can use is to reject multicultural isolation, and, the use of strong force against the followers of this ‘fungus style Islamism’.
Now, you can go back to your sneers of contempt for my particular analysis.
ET,
“the last phase to emerge” has been going strong for 1400 years.
I didn’t mean to mock your theory with the yada bit. I did that rather than attempting to repeat it verbatim. Ok, maybe I did, a bit.
Regardless of the 7th century economy and whatever factor it had on the invention of the Islamic ideology – it’s hardly relevant now.
Furthermore, the Wahhabiism that emerged in the 19th century wasn’t anything other than the strict observance, preaching and return to fundamental Islam based entirely on the texts. The same Quran, Hadith and Sira that had been around since the Caliph Usman and prior. In other words, fundamentalism wasn’t anything new, even in the 19th century. Mohammad was the fundamentalist author. His companions were fundamentalists. You’ll find the results of fundamentalist Islam throughout history.
I also don’t believe in ‘magic’ theories that all of the sudden due to industrialism and theocracies somehow adopting a civic mode of governance that the Islamic troubles will all of the sudden disappear. The opposite is happening in Malaysia, Pakistan and to a degree, Turkey, as we speak. These countries are becoming more Islamified. Check the number of students in fundamentalist madrassas in Pakistan.
Finally, check your posts, I’m not the only one to notice that you do come off as emotional and uptight on this subject.
Irwin daisy – what’s emotional and uptight about my posts? Nothing. I don’t mock you or insist that you accept my views and belittle you for not doing so. I argue on the issues. Period.
Now, there is nothing ‘magical’ about Islamic fascism dissipating with the development of an industrial economy operating within a civic political mode. It’s natural, because, as I’ve suggested many times, the fascism arose in the first place in the 19thc with the conflict between a tribal political system and an industrial economy and rising population that requires a middle class governance.
I’m not aware that Malaysia is a problem, and Turkey is fighting back against Islamism. The problem is the ME states which are the home of Islamic fascism; that’s where Islamism originates and spreads, if allowed to. As for Pakistan, it’s hardly an example of an industrialized and civic nation. I suggest you take a look at the UAE and Dubai. And Singapore.
If your theory were correct, then, this fascist fundamentalism would have been existent in the 17th c, 18th c, 19th c. It wasn’t. It emerged in the late 19th and particularly in the 20th c. And, it emerged only in the ME.
Therefore, I disagree with you that ‘it’s in the texts’.
I also disagree that Wahhabism is a return to the original texts. In fact, at one time, Abdul Wahhab was considered a heretic.
We will have to continue to ‘agree to disagree’.
Maybe if they didn’t destroy that donated greenhouse…
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2005/09/gaza-greenhouse-looting-continues.html
ET,
Check the Ottomans throughout the Balkans, with special regards to the Janissaries – as well as their defeated effort at Vienna. Also check the Indian subcontinent for Islamic fascism and resulting genocide against the Hindus during your believed (17th – 18th c) quiet, non-fascist years.
Like any form of government, fascism requires resources. The Mamalukes were stone-cold surprised at Napolean’s quick defeat of their forces in Egypt. Their arrogance didn’t allow them to comprehend that Allah’s fascist mission was bankrupt.
And that’s what it is – The Quran. – Allah’s fascist, world conquering mission – © 674 Mahomet bin Abdullah.
Also check the Barbary Coast Muslim’s from the 17th through the 19th century and their piracy and slavery of not only black Africans, but 1.5 million white Europeans. They had slavery invading parties attacking and harvesting as far north as Iceland.
Pay special attention to what Washington, Jefferson and Adams had to say in this regard.
In retrospect, I don’t think my POV cancels out yours, or, likewise, yours mine. They can both be correct. All I’m asking you to do is look at the historical facts and read the credible eyewitness accounts. That’s all.
I respect your opinion, despite the fact I don’t agree with you on certain subjects. I’ll also attempt not to be so disagreeable in my approach.
Also, Singapore is 15% Muslim.