In a display of selfless solidarity and courage that will bring the Establishment to its arthritic knees and inspire oppressed people everywhere centuries hence, The Churches That Nobody Goes To Anymore (and their interfaith dupes) is organizing a one day fast to end the Iraq War.
Wow, will La-Z-Boys chairs be provided (like the ones at Gitmo…?)
As Simone Weil observed, there is nothing inherently holy about “waiting and fasting” — after all, any desperate gambler does as much.
Such self-aggrandizing, no-risk stunts, mounted by aging hippie leftists, make a mockery of the real discipline, courage and suffering displayed by 21-year-old grunts in the field, not to mention their Iraqi compatriots.
You folks can slam Harper(even though mr dithers sent them) and Bush all you want. Slam the UN, slam NATO, slam Layton, slam bombardion, but leave the troops out of it!. Sending baby(ass)wipes to the troops is noble, but is that not the job of those librano promoted armchair generals in Ottawa? Am I not the only one to notice that the troops only get what they need once 5, 10 or 20 die needlessly because of pathetic logistics and support? The real problem for our troops in Afghanistan are the idiots in NDHQ, and their liberal appointed civilian hack equivalents. GO ARMY!
I’m p*ssing in the wind here, but I seem to recall explicit instructions on how to “heap burning coals” on someone’s head.
You make a habit of following them, Kathy?
“We are now years into the occupation following the resounding support by the Iraqis in an open election of the present government.”
Over 50% of Iraqis think that attacks on American forces are justified. That’s the kind of resounding support you can do without.
Perry at October 1, 2007 1:13 PM
I’m sorry you’re bewildered. If you would learn to read, you might be a little less bewildered.
I didn’t say I’m not second guessing the politicians, I said I won’t second guess soldiers who support their own missions. They know far more about what they’re doing than I do. Believe it or not, they even know far more about it than you.
Phantom said: “Hans, you’re late to the Burma party today.”
Given the ‘results’ of that party, I can’t say I’m disappointed in being ‘fashionably late’. If this is the new ‘Burma shave’ I want a new razor!
Having 3 cents of lead in the brain, interferes with one’s thinking.
I believe the Teutonic knights understood very well the notion of the castle keep and its purpose; to keep the relentless marauders at bay.
Rape, pillage and plunder appear to be alive and well. However distasteful, there is sometimes a time for war.
The Zen Master warns: “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!” This admonition points up the fact that no meaning that comes from outside of ourselves is real!
Except when it is lead travelling at high speed!
Evidently the military in Burma have been taking that statement literally.
Cheers
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP
Commander in Chief
Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden (Rheinisches) Nr.7
(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Over 50% of Iraqis think that attacks on American forces are justified.
Got a link to that, Jose?
It’s ignorable as is most of your drivel unless you do.
Something really strange that a call to fast and pray for an end to the Iraqi war should warrant some of these comments. Christians being called to fast and pray is scary, weird, hypocritical, narcissistic, and God knows what else, when what it is is simply an act of faith and of obedience. Someone must have a different Guide Book than the one I use. Do they not have the same freedom of speech and the same freedom to practice their faith as you? Or your freedom to not practice it?
You made the article an issue – not they.
Along my Christian walk I fell in with the Mennonites where I spent some time learning their teachings and history. Through them I came to appreaciate the difficulty of leading a truly pacifist life. I spent a few years trying to follow their lead and I fully accept their position on the sanctity of life. However as I learned their history in Russia and spoke to a few of the more candid I came to discover that when the Mennonites (very few did) took up arms to defend themselves the slaughter stopped. It was through that experience that I came to understand when Jesus said “Blessed are the peacemakers” He wasn’t talking about pacifists. I believe in peace too much to be a pacifist.
Amen, Joe.
So tell us, The Guy: did it hurt when your balls fell off?
Wow, you do have the ability to construct a nuanced argument, don’t you?
Seriously, men who talk like you are the reason we call them The Churches Nobody Goes to Anymore. The feminization of Christianity, reflected in your smug faux-compassionate pretentious cliched “dialogue” talk circa 1987, is what’s really counterproductive to the Kingdom.
I believe the word “dialogue” existed prior to 1987. Your assumption that any compassion I have is fake is pretty bizarre. Personally I have no compassion towards the behaviors of Taliban extremists who blow up both civilians and soldiers, execute people for having US money etc. I don’t have compassion for evil and think in fact that Karzai’s offer to include the the Taliban in government was unwise. You are making a lot of assumptions about my worldview which are incorrect, based on the fact that I called you on your over-the-top aggressive response to the demo in the UK
Also, when you defend the Kingdom, I’d suggest you do it in a way that fits with its principles…
First of all: as we’ve established through Scripture, Christian fasting is supposed to be completely private. Will any of these people be smiling on Oct 8, as Jesus ordered? No, having been in the peace movement myself years ago, I can assure you that they will be affecting looks of stern moral seriousness and “holiness.”
I agree that fasting should be private and that many abuse all sorts of religious practices, gentle or otherwise, to create an impression for others. So what? When they do that we should lose our own dignity by behaving like morons? I don’t think so.
Secondly: we cannot do penance for the sins of others.
No, we cannot. If anything there is a trend towards accusatory diatribes from the religious left, not “penance”. Unlike Jesus’ “forgive them, Father, they know not what they do” which seeks mercy for people who in the wrong, too much of protest in the name of faith, coming from both the left and right, is driving towards a condemnation and destruction of persons with a different point of view. Which is sort of the attitude the Taliban take.
My suggestion is that you not take this attitude.
Obviously these leftist dupes don’t feel they are personally responsible for the allegedly awful Iraq War. Quite the opposite. So they are twisting the very idea of prayer and fasting to make Pharisiacal spectacles of themselves in the public square (“thank you, God, for not making me like that sinner [soldier/politician] over there”, remember?).
Yeah, okay, so what? Each of us is responsible for our own behavior.
And by the way, no matter who you are, if you are sane you know that every war is “awful”. What on earth is an “allegedly awful” war? A happy one? Even if a war “goes well” it involves the kind of destruction that no sane person looks forward to. The Christian dilemma is whether there is moral justification to take that action.
And when something seems sorta kinda Christian, has the trappings, but is _the exact opposite_ of the true Christian message, turning it upside down (see the Devil’s offers to Jesus in the desert — they’re all for “good” causes, after all), then the word we have for such actions is… Satanic.
An interesting development. They are praying for “peace” which is the opposite of the “true Christian message” which is, um… “Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
And who is your neighbour, Kathy?
Maybe a better point of inflection into the dialogue is to say to the people on the left “Yes, of course, peace is the goal. And what does that look like? When comparing western democratic values and fanatic Islamofascism, which point of view leaves room for peace?”
The goal of peace is a worthy one – mocking that shows that the heat of the argument has more appeal to you than getting past it.
Old Screwtape is thrilled by this fast and prayer day, with pompous church leaders fasting in public not private, and doing penance for other people’s “sins.”
I’m sure Screwtape is thrilled with a lot of things… And I can hardly imagine CS Lewis writing with the kind of ad hominem venom you are slipping into….
And since we’re dropping literary names, let’s remember what an old combatant of Christianity, JP Sartre, once wisely noted: “Every man justifies himself by the sins of the other.” That’s what those lefties are doing!!! Wow, good thing we don’t do that!
These dupes are giving aid and comfort to the enemy (not to mention The Enemy). Free speech rights, the right of assembly etc do not extend to treason.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Nor is the Canadian Constitution particularly Christian, but I guess appeals to authority can wander here and there when the main thing is to fling poo…
As I clearly said above, I believe that the Canadian troops are doing a worthy thing in providing security and stability for people who are being attacked by fanatics.
Your hyper-aggressive so-called “masculine” Christianity definitely has appeal to some people.
I’m not sure that Jesus is one of them.
I’d just like to concur that fasting as a public spectacle is definitely not a Christian understanding.
But then, what can you expect from a group which supposedly calls itself Bible-believing yet rejects the early Church councils which authorized the contents of the Bible?
To me, the entire ecumenical movement is inventing a Religion of the Future while rejecting, or at best misunderstanding, the true thrust of the Christian message.
Jose may be accurate with the 50% figure (or not) but it sounds possible. One thing I have learned about Muslim Arabs is that they are very good at holding contradictory opinions. Many of those 50% would probably also say that they want the Americans OUT, but not yet. Michael Totten has written about this many times.
An interesting development. They are praying for “peace” which is the opposite of the “true Christian message” which is, um… “Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
Well no, they’re praying for peace at any price. Read the article.
As an aside, love includes correction. Do you love your children? Do you correct them when they do wrong?
An interesting development. They are praying for “peace” which is the opposite of the “true Christian message” which is, um… “Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
Well no, they’re praying for peace at any price. Read the article.
As an aside, love includes correction. Do you love your children? Do you correct them when they do wrong?
Jose is quoting a very old survey as if it was conducted yesterday. In fact, the survey was done over a year ago at a time when expressing opinions contrary to that would have been very risky for the average Iraqi.
The efforts of the religious leaders to promote a day of “fasting and prayer” to end the War in Iraq may not do much good, but to criticize this type of well-intentioned effort to promote peace is petty and arrogant. Anyone NOT want to see an end to the violence and strife in Iraq? Anyone have any better ideas? Kathy Shaidle who are you to make pronouncements about how and when and for what purpose other people should choose to fast?
If they are chowing down with their muslim brothers to end ramadan then they will only fast for a portion of a day and then relish the exotic musk of throat slit goat delicasies until allah permits the sun to rise next day.
Ouuuuuuuuuu!…how inclusive will that be? What a lesson for the world.I wonder how muslims say “kumbaya” in wahhabi?
Jose, we are not occupying Afghanistan, we were invited and the invite is still open. An occupation is what the Iragis did to Quwait, Crashing the party so to speak. Learn the subtle difference. Oh yeah, it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt
Well no, they’re praying for peace at any price. Read the article.
As an aside, love includes correction. Do you love your children? Do you correct them when they do wrong?
Your points are valid. I don’t think peace at “any price” is peace at all. That said, when we see people invoking their faith in God as an aspect of seeking a peaceful world, to me that is at least a starting point for conversation.
You also make a good point that part of love is “correcting” one another. However this is not a simple task – even with children (maybe especially with children!)
The essence of my points above is that convincing others of the “correct” way of thinking must include behaving “correctly” ourselves. Showing contempt for anyone who comes at things at a different angle is not helpful at all.
“That said, when we see people invoking their faith in God as an aspect of seeking a peaceful world, to me that is at least a starting point for conversation.”
Well said. The problem I have is I didn’t hear any expression of faith in God to bring about this peace. What I heard was an experiment in “the old ways” to bring about a political objective that being the withdrawl of American troops from Iraq using religious affectation that the followers don’t seem to understand.
There are people who have been fasting and praying since the beginning of this conflict that are seeking Divine intervention in the conflict. They are seeking to bring peace on both sides and not unilateral withdrawl. To those prayers I add my Amen.
However when the withdrawl of troops is likely to set off an even bigger bloodbath with an escalation of sectarian violence usurped only by racial and ethnic killing, trying to force through religious affectations, unilateral withdrawl doesn’t seem all that Christian in the end.
Hi Kathy
What churches do you think that people do go to anymore? How come you don’t have comments on your blog?
Regardless of the views of a couple of the people quoted, the day of fasting and prayer for the end of the war in Iraq cannot be a bad thing. An end of the war does not mean a withdrawal that will result in an even bigger bloodbath with an escalation of sectarian violence. If this war is brought to an end within the will of God, it will result in peace.
Would you deny, with absolutely no evidence, that God has heard the cries of the oppressed people in Iraq and Afghanistan? Then why don’t we join in and support them with our prayers also? Only God knows the answer to the problems in those countries since they are mainly tribal, but He works through people. Since you are not in a position of leadership making the decisions, nor on the ground with the troops, how do you know that your contribution is not to be intercessory prayer? You don’t, nor do you know that the group calling the day of fasting and prayer is insincere.
Your arguments are completely empty, but it certainly hasn’t stopped any of you.
penny “Got a link to that, Jose?”
You don’t need to take my word for it. Google “iraqis support attacks US troops” and take your pick. There’s plenty of polling data on what the Iraqis think of the occupation, not that anyone cares what they or their government thinks.
Given the choice between using sucky, liberal “ecumenical dialogue” talk that’s a flaccid, useless turnoff, and so-called “ad hominem” attacks (“ad hominem” being Latin for “funny insults aimed at people who richly deserve ’em”), I’ll take the ad hom any day.
Now go re-tie your white ribbon or whatever colour it is this week.
Oh and I’m not sure why you’re confused (well, I am pretty sure, but…). We’re talking about the Iraq War. Which is being fought by the US. And the group in question is American. Hence “the Constitution is not a suicide pact.” I’m not just tossing around references for nothing. Please improve your reading comprehension skills.
Showing contempt for anyone who comes at things at a different angle is not helpful at all.
Heh, worked pretty well for Elijah.
1 Kings 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
1 Kings 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
Just wondering if the pacifists that are fasting as ‘Christians’ in protest of the war in another land,
have been bold enough to speak about the Jesus of the Bible to their Muslim neighbours on their home turf?
Guess that might not be included in an ‘all inclusive’ church.
Bluetech, y’mean like bringing The Word to the heathens?
I’m pretty sure that’s a capital offense in NYC. They hang you from a lamp post. Amazingly un-PC and all, y’know, to assume your Word is better than the other guy’s Word.
Christian fasting pacifists. Wow. That’s quite a take. But, if you haven’t got a real argument, take a giant leap and make it an even more foolish by quoting the OT.
In fact, I’d say there’s a bit of fear going on here – like, you really think this fasting and prayer is going to work??? Scares you silly, doesn’t it.
Gellen said: “You don’t, nor do you know that the group calling the day of fasting and prayer is insincere.”
Yeah we do. Its a publicity stunt. Ever see a sincere publicity stunt? Or a sincere socialist politician where religion is involved?
God is not a handyman. Nor a janitor. Calling on God publicly to fix stuff we (as in Humans generally, not us personally) broke is unseemly. Not to mention utterly futile. We fix it ourselves, or live with the consequences of leaving it broken.
The people of Iraq are presently living with the consequences of not fixing Saddam’s wagon for him when he was just a teeny tiny gang leader and wannabe dictator. Good men did nothing and Evil flourished.
God did not do that, and God ain’t going to fix it no matter how many New Yawk liberal faux Christians parade their piety in front of the TV cameras. In other news, water is wet and only runs down hill.
By the way Kathy, nice use of the word “sucky” in a sentence. You really are from Hamilton! ~:D
KS – You don’t engage much with content so there isn’t much point in “dialogue” is there… I’m sure it is a point of pride for you, but your language and posturing may be fitting for bar fights and drive-by slapdowns, yet no thinking person would have a higher view of your “Kingdom” if you act as its ambassador with that behavior.
Also I’m not sure where you got your education but your knowledge of Latin definitions is more than a little elastic…
And Hoss your point about Elijah is worthwhile. Looking for a NT parallel, Jesus was just as hostile and mocking to the Pharisees (white-washed tombs), though interestingly enough we don’t have a lot of texts of him mocking the Sadduccees, who had an enervated theology that deviated further from his own (they were the liberals of the day who rejected the concept of resurrection). Obviously he doesn’t accept their nihilistic view that there is no afterlife (his messages are very clear about this) yet he spends more energy focusing on demythologizing the notion that having an orthodox theology means there ain’t no fleas on me…
…if you haven’t got a real argument, take a giant leap and make it an even more foolish by quoting the OT.
Jesus quoted from the OT extensively. Did that make Him foolish?
Obviously he doesn’t accept their nihilistic view that there is no afterlife (his messages are very clear about this) yet he spends more energy focusing on demythologizing the notion that having an orthodox theology means there ain’t no fleas on me…
Actually His main point was in calling the Pharisees “hypocrites”. The definition of the Greek word is “play actor”. They played the part knowing they were playing a part.
Gellen said: “You don’t, nor do you know that the group calling the day of fasting and prayer is insincere.”
Uh I thought we had been through this already. Jesus said when you fast let it be done in secret and not make a public display of it like the Pharasees. These people are making their ‘fast’ a public display therefore they are being “insincere”.
As I said before there are thousands if not millions sincere Christians who in secret are fasting and praying for an end to hostilities and to their prayers I add my own Amen.
Actually His main point was in calling the Pharisees “hypocrites”. The definition of the Greek word is “play actor”. They played the part knowing they were playing a part.
Well at least your Greek is better than someone else’s latin. 🙂 Yes, “hypocrite” means literally “under the mask” and refers to the Greek theatre tradition. They were “playing a part” all right, and condemning everyone else who didn’t have on the same mask.
What I’ve been emphasizing all along is that our own attitudes and behaviors should have integrity with our high-minded theology.
As our wise friend said, it isn’t what goes into a person’s mouth that makes them unclean, it is what comes out….
What I’ve been emphasizing all along is that our own attitudes and behaviors should have integrity with our high-minded theology.
Yes, they should. Not making public displays of ourselves covered in ashes. That kind of thing…
Besides, burning things to makes ashes contributes to GW. Or so I’m told.
kingstonlad you wrote –
“The real problem for our troops in Afghanistan are the idiots in NDHQ”.
Does that include General Hillier?
“These dupes are giving aid and comfort to the enemy (not to mention The Enemy). Free speech rights, the right of assembly etc do not extend to treason.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.”
Wait a minute; was this hyperbole or an actual suggestion that these people should be put in prison? The U.S. Constitution defines treason very narrowly for a reason, to prevent political prosecutions such as you appear to be suggesting. The full clause, by the way, is “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.” – language clearly designed to minimize, not maximize, the frequency of treason prosecutions. In fact, this is the only time the word “only” appears in the Constitution. During the War of 1812, when many of the Founders were still alive, opponents of the war (often including clergymen) said things against the war at least as strongly worded as any of these people have said, and there were no treason prosecutions. Nor were there any during the Mexican War (1846-1848), when an anti-war movement was also very strong. Lincoln did restrict civil liberties during the Civil War, and while I myself am not an anti-Lincoln man by any means, I will note that it used to be on the Right, not the Left, that one was most likely to find criticisms of these actions (and even hyperbole of the “Lincoln was a tyrant” variety, still popular at Chronicles Magazine and Lew Rockwell).
“It’s a low, nasty thing to attack a church for engaging in the right to protest peacefully. If you can’t see that for the partisan blinders in your eye, then that’s your problem”
Er, no. It’s one thing to value and uphold the right to non-violent protest, but another to expect agreement with or acceptance of said protest.
One fellow’s “display of selfless solidarity and courage” is another’s “self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one’s fellow creatures” (well said, GDW).
mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm