133 Replies to “The Save Mickey Campaign”

  1. Thanks eeyore. Indeed, as I’ve said in forums like this one many times: I’ve met a number of Trinidadian and Bermudan born Canadians in my 43 years on the planet. And to a man (“And woman!” “Yes, yes, and woman…”) they have commented to me, completely unprompted but apropos of a conversation about this or that person’s behaviour:
    “Jamaicans give us a bad name wherever they go.”
    And note that they never bother saying “Some…” 🙂
    I’m more interested in the truth, and in my own personal experiences, than I am in this week’s PC rule about what one is or is not supposed to think or speak.
    And I feel sorry for people for whom the latter has become their cowardly default position. It is a meager, mendacious way to pass one’s precious, one-time-only existence.

  2. I judge a culture by the people I have actually met from that culture.
    So far the Jamaicans I know are good, honest, smart, funny, hard working, dependable people.
    Also, crack is pure evil. Anyone, no matter what culture they come from, if addicted to it is screwed. They are the walking dead.

  3. Kate: Research the murder rates in Kingston, A’dam and get back to us.
    Kate (and others) — if you want to discuss the higher murder rates in Kingston, or among Jamaican Canadians/Jamaicans living in Canada, their causes and consequences, etc., that’s one thing. But it doesn’t follow that those level of violence correlates with anything inherent to Jamaican     culture, and doesn’t permit making derogatory statements and insinuations about Jamaicans in general.

  4. “Do it for the children …” and “If we can save the life of just one child ..” are standard lefty mantras.
    Well, I say that if we can save the life of just one child by deporting the entire Jamaican community in Canada, then we should do it .. for the sake of the children.

  6. Blazingcatfur: If I said female circumcision was a disgusting cultural practice would that make me a racist? Muslims themselves protest this practice and describe it as a regional or ethnic practice as opposed to an Islamic practice.
    No, it wouldn’t make you a racist. But if you didn’t stop there, for example, if you then when on to say that Muslim is a disgusting culture, then yeah, you’ll have verged into bigotry.
    If I condemn the Jamaican community in Toronto for the well entrenched cultural practice of refusing to cooperate with Police and refusing to come forward to name the killers in their midst am I a bigot also?
    Again, no, but do you think “Just think of how much Jamaican immigrants contribute to our culture and economy: monotonous, illiterate music that all sounds the same, filthy hairstyles, those little tricoloured Rasta doohickies” is a justifiable statement to make in light of their reluctance to cooperate with police, or under any circumstances?
    And about my thought experiment, Blazing, do you really believe that if Mr. Beckford was in fact a white Englishman, that anyone here would spontaneously comment about his dental hygiene, or any other stereotype of English culture? I’m more inclined to think that the discussion would be limited to the particular person in question, and his ethnic or cultural background wouldn’t come up at all.

  7. @A’dam: Just a note – my earlier complaint was not indirectly aimed at you, so I’m glad you didn’t interpret it that way.
    You’re formally right, in that making the culture-of-crime claim from viewing those statistics affirms the consequent. The trouble is, though that all raw induction formally affirms the consequent…which goes a long way in explaining why inductive logic has been so damned hard to put together. It may even explain why scientists used to be roundly averse to Aristotle.
    We do know that subcultures have norms and mores. A “culture of crime” would have norms that enjoin breaking certain laws.

  8. It is outragiously funny that the stereotype police on this thread assume that “Mickie Roan Beckford” is black, because he happens to come from Jamaica.

  9. Georgia does it like this. . .
    Georgia’s illegal alien population reportedly doubled between 2000 and 2005. Overwhelmed by non-assimilating, non-English speaking foreigners, Georgians have chosen to deal with the glut themselves.
    The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports that drivers who can’t show proof of residency (with a valid Georgia driver’s license or state ID) cannot register cars. The new law went into effect on July 1.
    http://lashawnbarber.com/
    ========================== TG

  10. Eeyore: if they were born in Jamaica or were black and NOT prone to violence, she wouldn’t be criticizing them. Notice she’s not complaining about Zimbabweans or South Africans or Trinidadians or Bermudans or the like…just Jamaicans who can be shown to be involved in a statistically significant number of the cases of violence in Toronto.
    Yes, but behind her criticism is the insinuation that Mr. Beckford is prone to violence because he is born in Jamaica. When discussing Robert Pickton, does anyone make anything of the fact that he’s white? No, not even when one observes that, to paraphrase you, whites “can be shown to be involved in a statistically significant number of the cases of serial killing in Canada.” No, he’s just a regular violent psychopath — no causal links drawn to where he was born or the culture he grew up in. Similarly, is Maurice Boucher just a career criminal and convicted murderer, or is there something about motorcycle culture that compels him? Say, doesn’t Kate ride bikes too?
    I tend to agree with Canadian Observer, though I don’t call it racism…I think that Blazingcatfur’s xenophobic term is more accurate.
    Call it what you want. And I agree that, for an evolutionary perspective, xenophobia may be a hardwired survival adaptation. But so what? That helps to explain why nobody here — including myself — is perfect, and why we all continue to behave badly on occasion. But it doesn’t justify willful xenophobia. It’s not that the KKK, al Qaeda, etc. are just victims of evolutionary tendencies and just can’t help themselves — they indulge in their intolerance of others.
    It’s way too difficult to keep qualifying all your remarks with “Studies show that a statistically significant number of Jamaicans are…” when you can more easily say “Jamaicans are…”.
    Expediency is no excuse, though I suppose that if all you wish to do is criticize Toronto’s Jamaican community, then callous and lazy language may suffice (for you). But if you wish your comments to be viewed as constructive criticisms offered in the spirit of seeking truth and finding solutions (that fall short of forced mass deportations), then choice of words becomes of vital importance.

  11. Back on track here, I hope. Let me reinterate two points:
    1. Mickey is a career criminal, commiting crimes in Canada, against Canadian residents, and,
    2. Mickey is not in Canada legally so he shouldn’t really even be in Canada commiting crimes.
    So, in my humble opinion, if you solve the problem in point #2, then it follows that the victims of the criminal in point #1 would not become victims of said unsavoury charactor, Mickey. Even forgetting about the victims for a moment, what is this person costing the taxpayer in legal fees, court costs, incarceration expenses, probation officer’s wages, immigration lawyers, welfare and that top notch free medical care?
    End of sermon. Amen.

  12. Yes, there are many wonderful, dependable Jamaicans–I met one at church last night. However, there is a very distinct aspect to Jamaican culture, which, in general, works very poorly for those who perpetrate it, their children, and society as a whole. What is it? FATHERLESS households. I believe that this attribute is all too prevalent amongst Jamaicans, in contrast to, say, Africans: I know some professionals from Ghana, who also have a very low opinion of Jamaicans, who, they say, give all blacks a bad reputation.
    I’ve also taught Jamaican Canadian children from fatherless homes, whose mothers had multiple children by multiple fathers: in far too many instances, these mothers and their children, who live on social assistance, have no initiative at all: they cede responsibility to others, as in, “Isn’t there somebody [rather than me] to do . . .?” or “Nobody [+ verb for whatever needed doing] . . . ” This lack of initiative and responsibility–one mother I knew wouldn’t sign any forms sent home, even those for trips or pizza days and certainly never lifted a finger to see that even a minimal amount of homework was done–are a serious drag on society, including the huge cost of all the special education programs these kids need. Add their serious deficits in concept and language acquisition and language processing and the problem is gigantic. (What kind of job is one likely to hold down when one’s intelligence is marginal and one’s sense of responsibility is zilch?)
    Does the educational system attempt to hold these kids and their parents to account? Not on your life. (Note the murder of the far from angelic Justin Manners at C. W. Jefferys School and the administration’s culture of “ignore and appease”.) Black kids–and those of any other “sensitive” group–are let off the hook all the time in the public schools of this country. Irresponsibility and bad behaviour are overlooked over and over again. Teachers who are truly colour blind re discipline and behaviour codes are likely to be disciplined themselves for actually holding such kids–or their enabling parents–to account.
    Our judges, using the subversive Charter, are cut from the same mould as the lily-livered education bureaucrats, none of whom have to deal with the fallout in the trenches. What hypocritical cowards and toadies these people are! But, they fit like a hand in a glove the irresponsible, immature–and sometimes criminal–cretins who are far too numerous in the Jamaican community.
    Kyrie eleison.

  14. Kate: It is outragiously funny that the stereotype police on this thread assume that “Mickie Roan Beckford” is black, because he happens to come from Jamaica.
    Oh? I believe it was Kathy who heard “born in Jamaica” and immediately thought of “filthy hairstyles.” And I believe it was John who heard “born in Jamaica” and observed that “Toronto folk love their Islander, Negro Criminals…” And I believe it was Ralph who heard “born in Jamaica” and noted that “Jamaicans make up a relatively small percentage of the Negroes in Toronto.”
    And instead of the rhetorical one-liners, Kate, why not come out and defend your thread directly? Instead of vague insinuations about Jamaican culture and crime, why don’t you just state it plainly? Oh, but I suspect you’re too smart, and cautious, for that.

  15. lookout: Black kids–and those of any other “sensitive” group–are let off the hook all the time in the public schools of this country. Irresponsibility and bad behaviour are overlooked over and over again. Teachers who are truly colour blind re discipline and behaviour codes are likely to be disciplined themselves for actually holding such kids–or their enabling parents–to account.
    On the contrary, lookout, kids of minority backgrounds appear to be disproportionately and negatively impacted by the Ontario Safe Schools Act, which calls for zero-tolerance policies. Same results in the US and the UK, based on more comprehensive studies.

  16. Texas Canuck: So, in my humble opinion, if you solve the problem in point #2, then it follows that the victims of the criminal in point #1 would not become victims of said unsavoury charactor, Mickey.
    I never thought I’d say this, but exactly, TC. One would have thought that the comments here would’ve followed along the lines of our “67 strikes and you’re out” deportation policies, “revolving door” justice system, etc. Which makes the questions of why Kathy decided that “Jamaican” and not “career criminal” or “illegal immigrant” was Mr. Beckford’s most salient characteristic, and why Kate pointed to Kingston’s high murder rate as if this fact has some explanatory value for Mr. Beckford’s criminal record, all the more interesting.

  17. Kate: ” … assume that “Mickie Roan Beckford” is black, because he happens to come from Jamaica.”
    I just assumed he wasn’t white … the star would have pointed that out.

  18. Adam says: “No, Kathy, it’s still not ok. Both are racist. ”
    What’s wrong with being racy?
    Normally I’d jump in here with facts and figures and this thread would be over, except I’m a bit miffed at my fellow Canadians right now. You people don’t deserve the protection of my VAUNTED debate skills.
    I will say this: if, in the year 2007, the white race has not yet figured out how to effectively counter the race card, then it deserves extinction. Come on, folks. We’re smart people. We can put a man on the moon but can’t beat a 22 year old socialist kid from Amsterdam in debate?

  19. A’dam, you’re getting old, real old.
    Take a stab at this….“If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctonal culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too”….then again, don’t bother, you’ve glibbly glossed over that comment of mine because you know it’s hard to refute that one. It certainly meets your criterion as racist, but, you know better than to expose your little selective PC hustling for what it is.
    “Same results in the US and the UK, based on more comprehensive studies.”….reading through your link, it’s a meaningless nothing, crafted on empty speculation.

  20. Canada and Jamaica are culturally similar but racially distinct.
    Jamaica and Haiti are racially similar but culturally distinct.
    We rule. Jamaica sucks. Haiti totally blows.

  21. A’dam, are you from Jamaica? (Just joking . . .) If you believe what you’ve just written, we’ve got a problem. Zero tolerance is a no-go: not only does it not work, most school boards–in an uncharacteristically common sense move–have abandoned it. (I didn’t use it with even my most egregious students, who often needed some space to work things out.)
    You say, “kids of minority backgrounds appear to be disproportionately and negatively impacted by the Ontario Safe Schools Act”. Perhaps this statement is correct. Now, why do you think such children might be impacted in such ways?
    Might it have anything to do with their BEHAVIOUR?
    Due to very poor social and language/language processing skills, as well as a sense of entitlement minus responsibility, many of these children exhibit seriously anti-social behaviour. E.g., One of my Jamaican/Canadian students brought a lethal weapon to school and threatened another student. Zero/zilch sanctions were imposed by administration, who referenced the board’s “mitigating circumstances” rubrics, which, BTW, virtually cancel out any meaningful consequences for anti-social, disrespectful, and even dangerous behaviours. (The “mitigating circumstances” had nothing to do with the child and everything to do with administration saving face: “Problem? What problem?” Check out C.W. Jefferys again, A’dam.)
    Considering the DECADES I’ve spent in the trenches of the public school system, I honestly find your comments facile and uninformed. I have a question:
    Do you actually WANT irresponsible, unintelligent, and semi to full juvenile delinquents to be let off the hook? (The Safe Schools Act is a joke. We apparently both think so but from opposite ends of the spectrum.)
    Not all cultures are equal, A’dam. Some do reasonably well at turning out responsible, well-adjusted children. Others do not. That’s a FACT.

  22. “If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctonal culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too”.
    No, that in itself isn’t racist. Ignorant and closed-minded, yes, but not really racist. How you react in your day-to-day encounters with actual Arabs and Muslims, however, may or may not be a different story.
    Incidentally, how did you come to your opinion of Arabs/Islam? Through a thorough reading of the full spectrum of writings on those cultures and an unbiased engagement with actual Arabs and Muslims, I presume?

  23. I have a funny feeling the whole”welfare for life” model that exists in Ontario is going to come crashing down in the very near future. The economy is going to hell, trawna is flirting with insolvency, and I think the pendulum is going to swing hard to the right. Ontario may appear to be center-left, but that was when it was flush with cash. We shall see how generous the 905’ers are to career criminals and punks when they see their provincial taxes rise and rise. As Dylan so eloquently said, “the times they are a changing”

  24. A’dam, like your response to me, your response to penny also appears to be ill informed, arrogant, and juvenile.
    Do you not pay any attention to BEHAVIOURS? You should try: they provide a lot of interesting facts about people and cultures.

  27. If you argue that no human culture is superior to another….
    And believe evolution is the singular force in the creation and advancement of mankind …
    You might be a leftist.

  28. lookout: A’dam, are you from Jamaica? (Just joking . . .)
    As it happens, yes I am. My parents were born and raised in Kingston; I was born there, but raised and schooled (public system) in Toronto’s northwest end. We’re all Canadian citizens now, and while like many immigrants, we started behind the economic curve, we’ve done alright for ourselves. My folks are retired and still married, my dad eventually earned an MBA, my mum is a homemaker, my sister is a concert-level cellist, and I have an combined MBA/LLB. Not a single arrest between the four of us, not even detention after class. We were exposed to a strong Jamaican culture, both within our household and among our social networks, and still we turned out as responsible and well-adjusted.
    I mention all this not out of pride, but merely to illustrate that to speak in crass over-generalizations means you’re always at least a little bit wrong (and usually a lot more than that). Resorting to “conversational shorthand,” to use Kathy’s deceptively benign euphemism, is but an excuse to intentional indulge one’s xenophobic and prejudicial impulses. You will say that, “Well obviously, I didn’t mean that all Jamaican families turn out irresponsible, maladjusted kids,” as though this concession — that, essentially, we are an exception to a general rule — somehow proves your generosity and tolerance. Well, our family is not unique; the vast majority of the Jamaican community in Toronto, like every other cultural group, are hard-working and law-abiding folks. Once difference is that not all groups face the same sort of casual racism and discrimination, of which many comments on this thread are tragically typical examples.
    I don’t deny the importance of personal/familial responsibility for one’s actions, but structural discrimination and anti-social behaviour are part of the same vicious cycle.

  29. “If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctional culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too”.
    I was working at a factory in Toronto (electrical contractor), where the vast majority of the employees are immigrant muslims, on 9/11. If you had seen the people cheering and the jubilant celebrations of those people when the planes hit the towers you would hate Muslims. you would understand that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim and you would be scared for the future of your children and your country. If you didn’t feel like that you would be a deluded fool.

  30. Kate: If you argue that no human culture is superior to another….
    I’m not arguing that no human culture is superior to another, I’m rejecting your entire premise as specious. As with many aspects of humanity, cultures are too complex to be collapsed and rank-ordered along any single variable like “increasing superiority.”
    Again, Kate, why don’t you state your position more directly, rather than through oblique rhetoric? You seem to be inching towards something along the lines of “_________ culture is superior to _________ culture.” Care to fill in the blanks?

  31. @A’dam (7:48 PM):
    Stereotypes tend to emerge/strengthen in a multicultural society when members of each cultural group get rid of their troublemakers by sending them to another group. FYI.

  32. A’dam has a serious chip on his shoulder, I for one do not believe him, he has an agenda to push and this is his forum.

  33. Or put another way, quit worrying about what others are saying, and start taking responsibility for your own. What my children, brothers, or for that matter cousins do reflects directly on me, positive or negative. I will not hesitate to give a family member a slap in the head if they embarrass the family. It may be a little on the knuckledragging side of things, but it works for me. Maybe a few others should try it as well

  36. We’ve spent alot of time on little mikie who pretty much admits he’s a criminal and a wash out as a human being. The blight that’s within this society are the people that allow him to stay. The same people who are afraid to admit the propensity of Jamaicans or Canadians of Jamaican descent to commit crimes and are also afraid to confront it. David Miller is one not so extraordinary example of this type of person. There are unfortunately many more who blame Mike Harris’ policies a decade ago and simply won’t deal with the real problem. Deporation, shooting or locking them up is the only option to deal with these criminals. I think its about time for a prison colony on Hans’ Island.

  38. DDT:
    “prison colony on Hans’ Island”
    Them thar is fightin’ words!! Nobody messess with Hans’ Island. You may just get a Canadian Huns(TM) welcome, like a large lump of coal in your shoes.
    Christmas Operations will not be compromised under any circumstances.
    By order of
    Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP
    Commander in Chief
    Frankenstein Battalion
    2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden (Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
    Knecht Rupprecht Division
    Hans Corps
    1st Saint Nicolaas Army
    Army Group “True North”

  39. “structural discrimination and anti-social behaviour are part of the same vicious cycle.”
    A’dam
    So Scarborough/Jane Finch, must be 80% structurally discriminating against only Jamaicans, to earn the kind of gun play their Jamaican’s cycle through.
    Neat trick.
    Do you have one to write off Jamaican on Jamaican murder in Jamaica?

  40. A’dam from my perspective I am sorry to say that the Jamaican community has shown a profound lack of respect for Canadian institutions and values.
    The issue of Jamaican gang violence and the lack of cooperation with authorities by the Jamaican community at large to solve these matters is deeply disturbing.
    The root cause of this violence is the Family Dysfunction within the Jamaican community – single mothers raising multiple children by multiple fathers is an abysmal cultural practice.
    These issues did not arise as a result of some bogeyman called structural discrimination. They are the result of personal choices. Choices that have become acceptable standards of behavior within the Jamaican community. This behavior did not magically happen to Jamaicans on arrival in Canada, rather I suggest they were imported norms.
    From the Unicef report “Parenting in Jamaica”
    “According to UNICEF’s 2000 Situation Assessment and Analysis of Jamaican Children and their Families, most Jamaican children are born while their parents are in a common-law or “visiting” relationship, but nearly half of these relationships have ended by the time child is five or six years old.”
    Link: http://www.unicef.org/jamaica/parenting_corner.html

  41. I believe it was the “Year of the Gun” when one of the Toronto papers published the photos of all of those murdered by gunfire in Toronto (either that, or photos of those arrested, I can’t remember which). Here is a quick summary of what I saw:
    – black guy, black guy, black guy, white guy, black guy, black guy, black guy, asian guy, black guy, black guy, black guy, etc. and ad nauseum.
    The overwhelming majority of murders are black on black murder and, according to ex-police chiefs and law enforcement folks the problem is in the Jamaican community.
    If I recognize that and repeat the FACTS, I am not racist, I am simply observant. Are all Jamaicans bad…of course not. But when it comes to murder in Toronto, I suspect that they account for well over 50% of the murders. So, whether or not it is lazy or racist, I will say “Jamaicans are a problem”.
    Now, A’dam would prefer me to say “An overwhelming majority of Jamaicans in Toronto are not a problem” and he is, technically, correct. However, it would also be technically correct (though likely grammatically poor) to say that “An overwhelming, massive, gigantic majority of every other race and ethnic group in Toronto (except Jamaicans) are not a problem”.
    There…is that better now?

  42. Just curious, A’dam, let’s see if I’ve got your bio straight, you live in Amsterdam(from an earlier thread on the Netherland’s problems), you’re Jamaican from a distinguished family by your admission….any more stuff to add as the topics change here on Kate’s site?

  43. A’dam wrote, “I mention all this [his family’s and his own commendable achievements] not out of pride, but merely to illustrate . . . ”
    Be proud, A’dam, and well done! (And I was quite clear about acknowledging that there are responsible, fine people from Jamaica.)
    I think, though, we were talking about the ones who aren’t—who are responsible for serious mayhem and murder in Toronto—and the failure of the present authority structures in this country to deal effectively with them, starting with ineffective families and schools.
    Re the badly behaved to criminal elements in the Jamaican culture mentioned above, you’ve sidestepped both my questions:
    “Might it [your hypothesis that black miscreants are unfairly targeted in the schools] have anything to do with their BEHAVIOUR?” and
    “Do you actually WANT irresponsible, unintelligent, and semi to full juvenile delinquents to be let off the hook?”
    I’d be interested in your staying on topic here and actually answering these not unimportant questions.

  45. I propose that A’dam is a typical troll, one of those little games players that are whatever he wants to make of himself to fit the thread that he’s caught in at the moment.
    Sorry, but, being in Amsterdam for one thread, then, being Jamaican in this one is just too convenient.

  46. Interesting how even on what is supposedly a conservative site people tend to blame external factors for the high rate of Jamaican crime. From “IQ and the wealth of nations”:
    Average Canadian IQ – 97
    Average Jamaican IQ – 72
    Someone with an IQ of 72 is not going to get far in a modern society. Combine a low IQ with high self confidence (black males have been found to be much more self-confident than white males) and you end up with situations like you see in Toronto now.
    A simple IQ test for all prospective immigrants would be a great way to prevent the importation of third world lifestyles.

  47. Texas Canuck said …………. legal fees, court costs, incarceration expenses, probation officer’s wages, immigration lawyers, welfare and that top notch free medical care?
    Precisely, as the common and well known phrase goes ‘follow the money’. This is precisely why any foreign criminal will live long and prosper in Canada. The list notes every freeloading enabler that need this to happen, its in their interest.

  48. loki: A simple IQ test for all prospective immigrants would be a great way to prevent the importation of third world lifestyles.
    Wow. Just…wow. loki, I say this with absolute and utter sincerity: I really, really hope PM Harper adopts your policy proposal.
    Penny: Sorry, but, being in Amsterdam for one thread, then, being Jamaican in this one is just too convenient.
    Oh, Penny. Not that I feel any overwhelming need to prove anything to you, you might want to note that I first mentioned living in Amsterdam some time before that “thread on the Netherland’s problems.” So, either my, um, trolling skills are so finely honed that I can presage future thread topics and establish false “credentials” ahead of time, or you’re being paranoid. I’m OK with whichever you decide.

  49. Eeyore: So, whether or not it is lazy or racist…
    Why choose? You might not be your intention, but a careless statement may very well be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as racist.
    But you know that, don’t you? Which is why, when you’re out in public, say, on a bus at rush-hour, and you’re within earshot of twenty strangers — including, to give this hypothetical scenario extra vividness, a young black couple, minding their own business — you wouldn’t dare turn to your travel companion and, in the course of your casual conversation about crime in your city, state simply, in your normal speaking volume, that “Jamaicans are a problem.”

  50. Blazingcatfur: A’dam the civilized world has no place for moral relativism.
    It’s no place for “cultural absolutism” either, whether of the paternalistic or oppressive kind. Let’s not forget that while the “civilized world” ushered in many, many positive developments, it was responsible for perpetuating the African slave trade, the White Australia policy, Aboriginal residential school systems, the Chinese Immigration Acts, etc. All of these actions, now near-universally condemned as discriminatory and ill-conceived, were at their times seen as completely justified, since the notion that “our” culture was superior to “theirs” was considered self-evident.

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