A followup on the Kabul rioting;
The violence was not Taliban-inspired, but composed mainly of Hazaris. The Haziris are an ethnic group that fought the Taliban under the banner of the Northern Alliance and followers of Ahmad Shah Masood , who was killed by al-Qaeda two days prior to 9-11. Masood’s image is prevalent in Kabul. The Hazaris have recently been marginalized by the Karzai administration after they lost their last cabinet post. The rioters were largely young, unemployed males, and there was a significant criminal element involved.
I spoke to several aid workers, contractors and Afghanis about the violence, and their conclusion was the demonstrations were organized, and the traffic accident was merely a catalyst. While there is frustration with driving habits of Western contractors and the military (particularly with the aggressive driving of some security company employees), the subsequent violence was primarily directed at the Karzai administration The neighborhood was targeted because of its relatively light security and the high-profile institutions that are housed there. There is concern among the community about the current security situation in Afghanistan, particularly with the increase in violence in southeastern Iraq and the murder of eight aid workers.
The Karzai administration doesn’t even control Kabul anymore. Jeez. It’s coming apart faster than I thought. Dirt poor, tribal, fundamental Islamic. Add a history of rejecting foreign occupation, add about five nato countries occupying and guess what you get? I don’t know but it ain’t pretty. I vote Bill out now.
Steve D.
“Passion makes the best observations and the sorriest conclusions.”
Jean Paul Richter
A huge smoke raised from Darul Aman where the Ariana TV is located. I just decided to go there and snap. I amazed that most of the protesters were the student of Habibia High school. They had their schoolbag on their back a long stick in their hand, chanting slogan against U.S. They left the place on fire while they left i went to snap. I was taking picture while an angry police shouted over me: do you leave this place or I must shoot to you. I just had time to return my bike back. I start going to Ariana TV from streets to streets. While i reached a crowed place close to Ariana TV. The police opened fire over them just a few meters away from me there were two people fell down on the ground and never wake up. One was shot on his leg and the second was shot on his stomach. On the other side people were talking that there was more than five victims. This was the scene that i witnessed myself. I afraid of being killed by police I left the place soon.
posted by Sohrab Kabuli Afghan LORD, 11:10 PM
http://afghanlord.blogspot.com/
Here’s one of the afghan sites take on the battle.
“But at the same time the ignorance and aggressive behaviour US forces display on the streets increases anger,” he said, adding that memories were also fresh of a western strike in Kandahar province that killed 34 civilians.
Political analyst Waheed Mujda said the violence was a reflection of indignation about the arrogance of US forces.
“The American soldiers are behaving pretty much against the culture and the beliefs of the people… this will cost Mr Karzai,” he said. —AFP
http://www.dawn.com/2006/05/31/int9.htm
So the Taliban have people in the present government and if in the next election the people elect a more moderate form of the Taliban for the new government, what should our troops do then? How many hands and heads were cut off this month in Afghanistan?
Show me a Country that the US set up a Free government in? Chile?
Why can’t the aid, we are constantly asked for, get to the people we send it to?
Seems to me we fill the ships here and by the time they get over there they’re only tug boats.
Now that Canada is involved in a civil war in Asia, I feel much safer 😉 Yes, sending our troops to a land war in Asia without air support is sheer diplomatic.
But seriously, let me tell you what finally changed my mind on Afghanistan: there was a post here at SDA a few weeks ago where some Afghani elder threw rocks at a 12 year old boy:
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/003873.html
“A kid who was around 12 years old looked like he was back-talking one of the elders and before you could say anything the old guy had grabbed the kid and gave him a couple of smacks to the head. It looked like the kid was pretty used to it and broke away running and the old guy just grabbed a couple of rocks and chucked them at him as he was running away.”
Is it worth it? Is it worth sacrificing our brave men and women so Mr. Throws Rocks At Children can live in a – heh – liberal democracy? In a country where people who convert to Christianity can legally be put to death? Exactlty how messed up does a society have to be before we say “whoa, this is just like Somalia, no point in being here”? The true patriot asks these sorts of questions.
(Please note that according to recent polls nearly half of Conservative supporters oppose Canada’s mission in Afghanistan; thus, anyone who calls me a lefty/liberal/etc. demonstrates their gross stupidity. Morally obtuse foreign policy which makes Canada more vulnerable to terrorism is NOT a conservative value.)
So, according the the above posters, these people aren’t worth it? Nice attitude. If things get tough, suddenly the people we’re trying to help are barbarians? So much for the Canadian spirit of helping anyone who needs it, now apparently there’s some kind of qualifying test. Only the people groups that are “good enough” get our aid?
No, no, you’re right. We should just bail out on all the innocent in Afstan, leave them to their fate with the Taliban. I don’t know about you, but I can’t live with THAT much blood on my hands. You think their won’t be massive reprisals by the Taliban against anyone who went against their wishes during the last few years. We can just pull out for a bit and than wait for George Clooney to tell us about the genocide in Afstan, and then, maybe we’ll be allowed to go back, but with blue helmets this time. Then our guys can stand around and watch the slaughter, and politely ask them to stop.
As for the questions as to why the aid we are sending isn’t reaching the people who need it: We’re trying to get it to where it’s supposed to go, but people keep shooting at our guys. The aid workers who get killed, don’t get killed by the locals they are helping, but outsiders who want to kill any westerners they can find.
Who’s blowing up the schools? Not our guys. Not the locals going to the schools, but outsiders looking to control the population.
The current government is asking us to stay. When the gonverment asks us to leave, then we’ll go. Until then, support our efforts, support our stance, support the Canadian spirit, don’t just support the troops.
The Hazaras (the correct spelling) are ethnically (Mongol descendents) and reliously (Shia) distinct in Afstan. All other ethnic groups have always treated them as the lowest of the low–they have always been marginalized. In the 70s they were used as beasts of burden to pull heavy carts through the streets of Kabul. If they are still being treated that way no wonder they get angry.
Mark
Ottawa
Man, it is a wonder we ever won a war….
Actually, I thought the tale of the whacks upside the head to be somewhat refreshing. There is a society where children and adults still understand who is boss of whom, after all!
Johnlee
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” – Aldous Huxley
The ‘facts’ in this endeavour are not on our side.
Facts:
The Taliban live there, we do not.
America has been trying to defeat them for
five years, they have not succeeded.
After five years, Kabul and Kalandahar are
the only two places of relative safety.
After five years they are increasing the
occupation numbers to the highest since
the initial invasion.
Poppy growth is reaching record numbers.
American rebuilding is exceedingly slow.
Afgan expectations are nowhere near being
met.
After five years, the troops are seen by
many to have overstayed their welcome.
American and Canadian support for the
mission is diminishing.
There was little or no understanding of
the historical reasons to expect this
outcome, so history will repeat itself
in Afganistan yet again.
The Americans do not understand that
their money only buys them superficial
and temporary compliance. It also makes
it harder for troops from other countries.
We are applying our standards,expectations
moralities and understandings to a totally
different culture. We don’t understand them
We don’t treat them as equals. We have
contempt for their religion and culture.
Democracy is a joke in a country where
96% are illiterate. Democracy demands
an educated and enlightened populace.
Historically these people are tribal.
Loyalty to tribe and religion comes
far ahead of loyalty to country or flag.
Historically the Afghans resist
outside forces, all of them, benevolent
or otherwise. They are fiercely independent
and don’t like to be told what to do and
how to do it.
Karzai, while ‘elected’ was not elected
in the traditional informed democratic
sense. Rather in the American hyped
staged sense. They were bribed with
high expectations and promises.
Karzai’s government is a Kabul government.
Most of the country is controlled by the
tribal leaders. In the end, the tribes
will do what is best for them not
Afganistan.
Taking out a government by force, whether
a bad government or not is always dangerous.
It was short-sighted, brash and full of
juvenile belicosity. Now they need help.
That is where we come in. But the mess
is a quagmire. If the policy is no cutting
and running, then we are there for a lot
of casualties especially if the Russians
start feeding the isurgency more up to date
weaponry as the CIA did to the Afgans in the
1980’s against the Russians.
steved is losing it. He is hearing voices now. steved, the Lord will not be mocked.
“Jesus sent me okay? he spoke to me yesterday in that deep voice of his and said, Save the wingnuts from themselves, PLEASE! Save them for they no not that what they think is but mere shadows on the walls of caves…deep caves…shallow shadows.
So I said I would try but I don’t know if it is possible. He said, You must try, I don’t want them coming up here in that condition! OK LORD, whatever.”
Posted by: steve d. at June 1, 2006 12:02 AM
no bozos allowed
“the Lord will not be mocked.”
Are you talking to God too?? I am impressed. I didn’t know you spoke foreign languages.
steve d.: What about Herat (west), Mazar-e-Sharif (north), Jallalabad (east)?
“96% are illiterate.”
“A UNICEF survey in 2003 showed that the male literacy rate was 49 percent while female literacy was only 19.6 percent.”
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=43092&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=AFGHANISTAN“
Please, once again, do some real research. You keep telling us how much you read (except about the reporting last November on the change of the CF’s mission in Afstan); do it.
Mark
Ottawa
Mark
yeah 96% in rural areas and 79% in urban. They have been at war for 20 years when are they going to go to school? Reading is for people who have their basic needs met like food,water,security etc.
http://www.maec.gov.ma/future/documents/Initiatives-en/AfghanistanLiteracyDiscussionPaper.doc
“From their experience or from the recorded experience of others (history), men learn only what their passions and their metaphysical prejudices allow them to learn.”
Aldous Huxley