(moved back to top with updates)
Jeff Goldstein;
[S]uddenly, free speech is not a universal right worthy of the crafting of puppet heads and the defacing of Starbucks� windows, but instead is a culture-specific gift that needs to be filtered through the religious precepts of the culture of the Other. Unless, of course, that �Other� happens to be, say, Evangelical Christians. In which case, such extremists MUST BE SHOUTED DOWN with free speech.
Pretzel logic, clearly�and the dilemma that is at the root of an incoherent philosophical system that favors the sociology of group identity over the universality of individual rights. Ironically, George Bush, each time he argues that freedom is universal, is acting in a manner far more progressive than self-styled progressive activists.
Again: note the crux of the debate, as framed by the voices for Muslim protest, and take care to listen for the broad-stroked rhetoric�usually more carefully crafted by those who have perfected its vocabulary, cadence, emotional appeals, and key words�of the �tolerance� movement, the justificating force that cynically underpins all identity politics:“The 12 cartoons … have caused an uproar in the Muslim world and drawn a new cultural battle over freedom of speech and respect of religions.”
Translation: �Free speech is good so long as it tolerates our right, as an identity group, to dictate which free speech is authentic and allowable. Otherwise, y�know, we get to torch shit.�
You’ll see some (though not all are guilty) of that pretzel logic on display here, including an admonishment to those republishing cartoons that we are “not being helpful”. One suspects that, if sent back in time some 60ish years, such people would have been completely at home in “occupied” France.
Damian Penny has more on these voices of surrender. (At this rate, how long will it be before we begin to hear calls demanding Salman Rushdie apologize to his offended Islamist “critics” ?)
Sunday Morning Update
Another day, another embassy torched. “It was not immediate clear if the building was empty”.
MIchelle has a lot of new links, including this one to Steyn;
One day, years from now, as archaeologists sift through the ruins of an ancient civilization for clues to its downfall, they’ll marvel at how easy it all was. You don’t need to fly jets into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people. As a matter of fact, that’s a bad strategy, because even the wimpiest state will feel obliged to respond. But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural “sensitivity,” the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want — including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers.
Read this Opinion Journal piece, as well.
Jyllands-Posten decided to publish the cartoons after complaints from an author that he could not find an illustrator who dared to draw images of Muhammad for his book. It was this atmosphere of fear and intimidation that the newspaper wanted to highlight.
In the meanwhile, we line the streets to bear witness as tens of thousands of “moderate Muslims” begin counter-protests around the globe in support of cultural diversity and religious tolerance.
Oh? Was that a pin dropping?
Also – the so-called prohibition against depicting Mohammed – is a little consistency from our “Muslim brothers and sisters” too much to ask?
As citizens of a democracy it is our responsibility to drive our government into an appropriate response. All of us should take a few moments to write both the PMO and our MPs indicating how we feel about this issue. This is our government; we must make it speak for us.
I would suggest that we encourage them to send a letter of support to Denmark, make a statement affirming freedom of speech and the freedom of the press, and condemn Syria and Lebanon and the behavior of their citizens.
Furthermore, we should insist that our government cease sending any aid to these and other anti-democratic countries.
Our government speaks for us. We must make sure it knows what to say.
I was going to post “DEATH TO TANGOS” but decided to say something.
You will notice that in the United States we do not have tangos running around with their faces concealed, brandishing weapons.
And you will notice that we do not have tangos up and down the streets torching Renault-Dauphins. (OK, granted, we don’t have many Renault-Dauphins.)
And this might be a puzzle for some, because if militant Islam has any reason to hate anyone, it is America.
However for some reason they are leaving us alone.
Why do you suppose this is?
We have to plow right into this – and stop the crazy fanatics before they get a foot hold in our world. This stupidity has been going on for centuries in the east – mindless boiling pots of fanatical people ‘high as kites’ on blood thirst and hate. The rioting and thumping and screaming for blood is not univeral in the Moslem world but any Moslem who dares to protest against the jhadists will be killed. ‘Group think’ is a very strong force – look at Canada and note the number of people that tolerate ‘state smut’, robbery, murder, corruption, stupid laws, adherance to stupid laws, etc. etc. because they don’t want to make waves? If the free world MAKES a POINT and backs up the rightof all individuals to INDEPENDANT thought then the terrorists will head for the hills because they can’t fight the erge of all people to be their own person. The undermining of this ‘boiling pot’ mentality will be destruction from within; when the ‘silent majority’ see a way out by observing that SOME nations won’t allow intimidation to rule them, they will have the courage to fight for that right for themselves and their families.
I am Thanking God every day for the presence of Geoerge W Bush, in the Whitehouse; not that fool Jon Kerry and I thank God that Mr. Stephen Harper is now in charge of Canada; not the milque toast Martin. I am signing the petition right now and I will make certain that Danish products are purchased by this household.
Who could ever forget that the Danish King and his family wore the Star of David when the Nazi’s occupied the Danish Kingdom and the Queen of Denmark continues to smoke cigarettes – in public. In a Free country. I am not making this up. Canada (and ‘others’) have a lot to learn about courage and integrety from the Kingdom of Denmark.
Spot on Jema54, spot on.
Petition signed, Tuborg bought.
We shoud tell the Danes that it would be an honour to share Hans (Hans’?) Island with them!
I was just reading Steyn’s comments where he says,
“One day, years from now, as archaeologists sift through the ruins of an ancient civilization for clues to its downfall, they’ll marvel at how easy it all was. You don’t need to fly jets into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people. As a matter of fact, that’s a bad strategy, because even the wimpiest state will feel obliged to respond. But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural “sensitivity,” the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want — including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers.”
Funny, he just described Canada.
However for some reason they are leaving us alone.
Why do you suppose this is?
I would think the answer is obvious. The U.S. administration isn’t content, like leftists, to mindlessly hurl insults at the enemy.
Actions speak louder than words.
I just sent an e-mail to our new Prime Minister asking that he tighten up our immigration policy and end the monetary help we have been sending to those Muslim countries. Now, we will see if this new government has some guts. I am all for helping with disasters. Spent a pile of loot on winter clothing to help the children in Pakistan after the earthquake. This is my choice, but when it comes to sending money to these Democratic hating countries that’s where I draw the line. I hope others will send an e-mail supporting the Danes. Remember PM Stephen Harper has a minority government but other than T.O, Montreal and Van. most of the ROC think like us. Maybe we can turn things around.
Noticed Warren Kinsella has returned to normal. Scratch him.
See The Dissident Frogman for some great graphics in support of Denmark.
thedissidentfrogman.com/dacha/001580.html
Kinsella is nothing but a punk. He should be in a band called Barrabas.
Kinsella’s not on our side anymore?
Well, just let him try and do to us again what he did under Chretien.
I’ll be waiting.
This time I’ve got a blog. Think of it as my weapon of political combat.
BTW, I’m not alone, either.
We can beat WK and his army of brainless moonbats this time. The political tectonic plates have shifted.
Sorry if I was off topic. Brainfart.
The Danes Freedom of Speech petition:
Danish:http://www.petitiononline.com/danmark/petition.html
10 Comments for Denmark:
0803. Michel L’Islam est un cancer social / Islam is social cancer Qu�bec, Canada
10802. Naum I am Christian Assyrian originally from Iraq. Let me tell you about this muslims. They are very unkind towards difference of beliefs. They conquered the lands my people were on for millenia and killed many of us. They did the same to countless other people throughout asia. They are like forest fire, spreading fast and devouring whatever in its paths. Good luck to you on you fight against them. We lost and we payed dearly. You should not let this happen to you. USA
10754. peter hollings the indigenous peoples of the uk salute you uk
10753. Theo Van Gogh Do you all remember me? Don’t let my death be in vain. Don’t let more people die the way I did. Freedom of expression is vital to your way of life, give up that to those who murdered me and all is lost. Peace be with you, my European bretheren. Heaven
10796. Timothee The outrage, which I completly support, does not justify the threats against Jyllands Posten or the violence against western embassies and diplomats in the Middle East. By the way where is the outrage when some behead hostages and tape their murder in the name of Allah? Virginia, USA
10794. John All over a cartoon eh. What a bunch of stupid fools……. calling on people to be killed, killed for what? Yep, a cartoon……..STRANGE PEOPLE!! Gloucestershire, England.
0791. Filiep Geeraert Freedom of speech is our religion ! We won’t let some retarded religion that discriminates women and commits bomb attacks tell us what to do ! Freedom of speech by all means !
10745. Hans Christian Europe has suffered under Nazism, communism, fascism, and we know the signs of totalitarian regimes. May I express my deepest respect and thanks to Jyllandsposten and Denmark for raising this debate. Norway
0740. Mark Unsworth I am sick of Muslims dictating the way of our life in the Uk and in Europe. I support freedom of expression and speech and if that means upsetting the minority muslim immigrants into europe then so be it. As the Romans said “When in Rome do as the Romans do” England
0726. Richard Purdy We, the British people, will stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Denmark in the struggle against the hate mongers of Islam. We shall fight for freedom until freedom prevails. Manchester, England
0818. FoolishUse PressFreedom Not the time to feed Iran, Syria, Saudi frenzy. Canada..wait till democracy takes hold.
I thought one may have to scroll a long way to find profound comments. Not so. There are plenty of powerful comments right at the top section.
My comment in favour of temperance and patience is buried under the masses stampeding to declare for freedom of speech at any cost. I defer to the majority of course, yet my Scot heritage doesn�t like the at all costs part. I suggest that some measure of planning and stealth must be used to foil those who would clamp down on all our freedoms if they could.
We must realize that not all Muslems are bad people. It pays to keep the good Muslems as friends, since they are best equipped to take back their religion to the true peaceful values it originally held.
I prefer not to get mad just yet, but to ease up on the inflaming cartoons for now to save lives and the burning of embassies. What a silly waste of money that is. [ Scot heritage thing again].
We can then concentrate on helping to firm up their democratic framework in Afghanistan and Iraq. Keep our eye on the ball in other words. It is democracy that dictators are trying to kill here.
This whole outrage about cartoons is fueled by the people who fanned hate into Lebanon against the Jews for [32] thirty – two years and more. Do we want to give Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia more fuel with which to inflame the Jihadists?
Never mind the protests, as justified as they are. Flood Iraq and Afghanistan with more troops and give all the good Muslems the democracy they have shown they want by going to the polls in the face of death.
We can not afford to back out of this as we did in Viet Nam. Dictators in the Middle-East use any sign of backing-off as fuel to ramp up terrorist acts just as they have done with the cartoons fiasco.
We will not run screaming in the streets as fundamentalists do. We will apply more pressure and resolve to help Muslems resist the other *Saddams* operating with stealth against freedom and fairness. TG
The left (Kinsella and others) fall back on the old thinking that the rantings against Islam imply hate.
These expressions can also lead to potential harrassment from human rights tribunals who most vigorously and may I say even hatefully, prosecute alleged hate crime.
Know this … when people are threatened and made to live in fear a violent group living all around the world and right next door … who have MADE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that they plan to destroy the west, kill all Jews and take over the planet.
THAT GIVES US LICENSE TO STRIKE BACK AND MAKE OUR FEARS, CONTEMPT AND DISPLEASURES KNOWN.
We want to live our way of life, in our own culture with all it’s warts. THE WORLD OF ISLAM IS TAKING THAT AWAY FROM US AND MUST BE STOOD UP TO AS THEY DO IN THE USA.
Although, we in the west are also at war our apologist cowardly leftist factions. Given enough time and with ever more outrageous acts from the Muslim world, more and more of the left will wake up to the threat.
We are already at war and some of us dicidedly aren’t up to it. We won’t have that luxury much longer.
Islam has proven over and over that it is incompatible with our modern world … One of us has to go.
Does it make sense to have them evolve forward to our time slot in history or should we abandon our way of life to go back in history and live as they do? They won’t and we won’t. So we will fight this war … like it or not.
I will be interested to hear anyone’s answer to that question.
I also am curious to know how the overtly secular Liberalist leftist Democrats in the west, are so quick to take the side of the most radical hard core religious sect the world has ever known.
I am talking about people how cannot tolerate the sight of a Christmas tree. How do they resolve this in their own tiny brains?
If Islam had its roots in Scandanavia, and the rioters hiding their identities behind bandanas and shrouds were blonde and blue eyed, Kinsella and his ilk would be manning the baracades.
The left is so totally, utterly committed to seeing the world through a filter of benevolent racism, that they cannot see themselves for what they are.
I also am curious to know how the overtly secular Liberalist leftist Democrats in the west, are so quick to take the side of the most radical hard core religious sect the world has ever known.
Because as fascists in their own right they hate individual freedoms as much as Islamofascists.
Remember these are the idiots who still have admiration for the killing fields of Communism and admire freedom restricting socialism. They infect the media and college campuses. They are as dangerous as the Islamic fascists. They move from cult to cult in their admiration anything but democracy.
We need to take back the leftist media monopoly here and in Canada and restore colleges to places of free expression of inquiry instead of indoctrination camps.
Thanks Kate and Penny. This place is a comfort zone for me when my world is cloudy.
The mere fact that the Imams from Denmark went on a political “support” mission to their homeland implies:
1. Muslims do not consider Denmark their homeland.
2. Danish Muslims need to rally the troops for more $$ or infrastructure to fight the infidel.
3. European Muslims are less patient and have decided to drop the gauntlet earlier rather than wait for demographics to take their toll. Does this mean they think they are now battle ready on the European front?
This is all pushing the people of Denmark ever closer to the election of an extreme right wing Gov’t.If the moderate muslims of that nation have a voice,they had better find it and quick..When,not if the Danes regroup,it will be a sorry day for the militants.Bearing the “white mans burden” will no longer have the cache it once had. Denmark will never be a link pin for an Islamist caliphate,which most muslims will soon discover…..
Bought a case of 24 Tuborg Gold Premium Beer. Quite a pleasant beer, strong flavour but no after taste. Tomorrow I will be going to Home Depot to buy some Watco Danish Furniture Oil, plus Watco Danish Furniture Wax to refinish my oak desk.
Also for the .000001% of the population that needs vibration and noise measurement equipment, the Danish company Br�el & Kj�r make some very good equipment and have excellent customer service.
http://www.bksv.com/9.asp
B & O Danish Stereo equipment is very fine too. Can’t afford it myself, but I am sure some of you might.
As I implied in an earlier post, how do we reclaim the media and universities if our public school system’s a breeding ground for proles to serve the left-wing state? Our students are being force-fed a steady diet of homogenized pap. The default position is anti-Christianity–other religions are treated with great deference and as equal partners in the achievements of the West. (Despite all the facts to the contrary, the orthodoxy of the board I work for is that all religions are equal.) Students learn that bullying usually pays–victims are expected to buck up and employ “anti-bullying strategies”, while the bullies and other trouble makers are usually appeased. The students notice that bullies and other n’er do wells are almost never given anything but a limp, figurative slap on the wrist and are back in the class and on the yard almost immediately to continue the cycle of disrespect and disruption. This is demoralizing and, in the long run, dangerous for everyone in our society. But, as principals have about as much power as Paul Martin’s PMO and there is no process for redress, the dysfunction continues. Under the present circumstances, we won’t be seeing a change in the media or universities any time soon.
Christians must stand for the protection of the freedom of dissent because the essence of their religion involves a free choice.
There is a Carlsberg extra-strength beer called “Elephant”. Says it all.
Mark
Ottawa
Support Denmark and free speach. We cannot allow our freedoms to be impinged by fear.
Sign the petition if you haven’t.
http://www.petitiononline.com/danmark/petition.html
The silence from the domestic voice of islam is deafening….again…no denouncements forth coming until political expedience dictates. I concur with Kate on this …after a long assimilation of the available facts and actions I think Islam is an order of vary degrees of intolerance of diversity. When I see a Canadian Imam sit down with a prominent rabi and a bishop and they uniformly denounce the theocratic conflicts raging around the globe, only then will I be convinced the major religions are willing to tolerate each other’s presence.
I’m currently pondering Kinsella’s recent musings as to the cartoon controversy. His arguments are full of holes, I have found. I felt, as I read his post of Feb. 5th, that once again, he’s trying to have it every way he wants it, in typical leftofascist fashion.
Why is Kinsella condemning the cartoons which have supposedly angered Muslims while at the same time excusing and piss-poorly trying to explain away the “Bad Religion” band and the “Tit Fuck Me Jesus” band? I completely reject his illogic. Pure bullshit. Just ’cause he’s Christian, it’s okay that there are bands with names that blaspheme Christianity? He’s ok with that but not with the cartoons?
He tries to justify using a purple dinosaur to attack someone’s religion for political gain. But it’s only justified in his own warped leftist mind. He blasphemed Mr. Day’s religion. He says the cartoonists were wrong to do the same. He thinks there’s a difference? Here we go again with that horseshit leftist concept of “moral equivalence”. I wish he would just give up and shut up as he’s just making an ass of himself all over again. Hypocrite.
Doesn’t he understand that Christianity and Judaism and all non-Islamic religions as well as non-religious peoples are being threatened by Islamic leaders all over the world? Certainly there are good Muslims, but unfortunately, there are also a hell of a lot of bad ones who want to wipe the planet clean of all who aren’t purely Islamic and Arab. We cannot lay down our arms when threatened by the bad Islamofascists who plot as we speak to kill us all simply because of the fact that not all Muslims are bad. (Remember, during WWII, not all Germans and Japanese were bad, but we did have to beat them in a war, right?) We want the good Muslims as our friends, for sure, but as for the bad ones, well, I would hope the good ones would want to put a stop to the baddies amongst their people so there won’t be what is known in Islam as a “holy war”. Why won’t or can’t he understand?
Does he want us to sleepwalk towards annihilation? Maybe he welcomes it? Hmm… do leftists want to be killed in a slaughter, putting up no resistance? Is that what leftists want? Surely they realize that would be the end result if they had their way?
Don’t leftists realize the terrorists want to kill us, not because of “American foreign policy in the MidEast” or because of some cartoons, but simply because the terrorists hate us because we aren’t Muslims and therefore want to kill us in line with the dictates of their religion or what many of them believe to be such?
Leftists sure are scary.
Kate: Nice blog. I stumbled on it between curses at the libs during the election – and decided to stay.
Regarding the infamous cartoons, I will make a prediction. The chorus will rise until about mid-month, and then fall away rapidly. The reason? Simple; the foreign aid cheques go out in the third week of the month. Yes, there are many devout muslims who are probably very irate. There are however many “leaders” who will use this to “renogotiate” their handout. Look for the Danes and Norwegians to announce a couple of new aid projects.
BTW, when we go to Islamic countries, we have to obey each and every law and custom, else we’ll end up in really deep doody. Perhaps even horribly tortured or dead, according to Islamic penalty.
Now, Western society is much, much more benevolent and forgiving and tolerant and welcoming than Islamic society. Considering this, is it too much to ask that Muslims try harder to fit into Western society if they wish to live in it? They’d insist we fit in in their countries, if allowed to be there at all.
Don’t forget this. They demand a lot of us while we ask very little. We didn’t start the conflicts; they did.
They can stop the conflict simply by stopping it themselves. Once they’ve stopped, we’ll stop. We know this. So do they.
Dogs, dogs, dogs; mow them down like dogs. >>
via instapundit
I remeber maybe 6-8 years ago on 60 Minutes when they had the leader of the Bosnian Serbs as an interview guest. He claimed at the time he was defending the west against the muslim world, and he said that was Bosnia’s traditional role. At the time he was laughed at. Now it makes people think if maybe he was right.
Sentinel..you’re assuming that they WANT to stop…
I see no real difference between the so called moderates and the radicals of Islam.They are too sides of the same coin,and when the silence is deafening from the moderates it speaks volumes to me about the true intent of the muslim actions
Really,the Islamists actions differ only by degree,not intent…
With so much conversation seeming to end with a call to have all Moslems kicked out of their country of choice in Europe.
It may be something for the European Community to consider before allowing Turkey, any kind of membership… Once in Europe, they travel freely from state to state… without any checks…
so many problems, so few solutions.
I hesitate to say, “all the moslems out” like King Ferdinand did in the Spain of 1492. It simply cannot be done in a democracy. Really, it can only be done by a “strongman” and all the other things we hold as valued, are lost then.
Maybe in times of war, when the laws change… like here in Canada in 1970. but in our democracy, this cannot be done.
Would someone please define the meaning of the phrase “a good muslim”. With every attrocity committed by yet another mis-understood Islamic terrorist faction I wait to hear the moderate-good muslim condemn the acts. Their voices are few and far between. Why is it so hard to condemn the murder of children in a Beslan school or theatre goers in Moscow or the murder of Christians in a church, or the stoning of women in Iran? I could go on but I’m sure everyone gets the point. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Good Muslim indeed, where are they? I won’t be holding my breath. The Muslim intent is clear to all who have the wisdom to see. It is time to fight back!
I mentioned fear a couple of times on my blog and in other commentary. I think it’s reasonable to consider that there is a lot fear around the war with Islam. There is large evidence everywhere that these lunatics are out to kill us and take over as much of the world as they can.
They aren’t going away and the line they continue to draw in the sand is coming ever closer to our toes.
The question is … when do we draw our line and what do we back it up with?
The divide between left and right in the west presents as big a challenge as the Muslim hoards who now appear to be in control of Europe.
We can only face down the fear by ending our tolerance of what scares us.
Forget political correctness and mulitcultural niceties, we are at war and our enemy is ruthless.
Get some spine and fight back.
If we let it go too long, a strong man will arise and things will really change … some problems may get solved but many others will be created and we won’t like them much.
We still have an opportunity to unite against the forces of Islam, but I doubt we will. Moonbats are unbelievably as convinced that niceness can win over our enemies. We have all seen how well that works in our criminal justice system. NOT!
It is strange how humans can’t seem to even learn from our mistakes anymore.
Maybe our time has past and this is the natural course of things. We go away, a new society takes over. It wouldn’t be the first time this has happened.
I’d like a chance to save our more advanced society … at least until we develop warp drive so some of us can finally get away from these people.
I think Western democracies may have a lot to offer other planets. We have a lot to offer to this one, but there aren’t many takers.
Have laugh at Duke’s Place.
http://dukemcgoo.blogspot.com/
Where is Bono during all this.
CONTACT THE DANES! GIVE THEM THE SUPPORT THEY DESERVE!
IMO, this is a good time for all peoples of the Western Democracies to stand firm with Denmark.
Just to let everyone know: The URL for the Danish Embassy in Canada is http://www.ambottawa.um.dk/en
Their principal email contact address is ottamb@um.dk
I just sent them a supportive email, including at the bottom a small embedded Danish flag with supportive statement, available at the blog The Dissident Frogman, at http://thedissidentfrogman.com/dacha/001580.html
Steve in BC
I went out and bought some real Danish Blue Cheese today , and some Norwegean Crisp breads.
Calgary
From Samizdata.net (via http://www.nataliesolent.blogspot.net)
“” Even taking the period of the early 1600’s to the early 1800’s (and in this period Islam was much weaker than it had been) the Muslims took about one million Christian European as slaves (this, of course, excludes the Africans that the Muslims took as slaves).
The endless denoucing (and correct denoucing) of the European slave trade, rather leave out the attacks on Europe – attacks that went as far north as Iceland (and included direct attacks on Britain – for example on the coast of Devon)*. And made people on the high seas and in coastal communites live in fear for centuries.
Further back in time (during the early “middle ages”) Muslims sacked whole European cities in France and Italy (inculding Rome) – no city on the the coast of the Med was safe.
And of course there is the extermination of the Christian and Jewish communities of Arabia by the prohet of the Muslims.
And the conquest (and savage repression) of the Persion civilization and other civilizations futher east.
Also the conquest of the Middle East and North Africa (once Christian lands) by fire and sword. For all the talk of the “Pact of Omar” (itself life in exchange for a serious of humiliations) many people in the Middle East and North Africa (such as the Berbers) faced the choice of Islam or the sword.
The wars against the Christian lands of what is now southern Sudan were going on into the 16th century.
And Muslim attacks against Ethopia continued after that. The sack of Gondar and other cities occured after the death of General Gordon (that is correct the Muslims were not just interested in the Sudan).
Nor should one forget the various Islamic groups of Turks (the behaviour of the first wave of these invaders set off the Crusades as a response and the last wave, the Ottomans, finally destroyed [Constaninople in 1453 and a few holdouts over the next century] Byzantine civilization (a civilization they had been attacking since the mid 11th century – especially after the great defeat of 1071).
Praise of the enlightened Islamic civilization of in Spain does rather leave out the destruction (by the Muslims) of the Visigothic Kingdom (the land of such scholars as Isidora of Seville) and of the war to take over France and the rest of Europe (only defeated by Charles Martel). One must also remember the annual offensive conducted by even the most tolerant Muslim rulers in Spain (before they lost the military power to do so) against areas of Spain that never accepted their rule.
I am also getting a little tired of the Muslims getting the credit for Spanish irrigation systems (as if the Roman civilization had never existed), for “Arabic numerials” (Indian) certain types of steel (Central Asian and preIslamic) the lateen sail (also preIslamic and widespread – for example the Byzantines used it in the time of Justinian) and various other things.
Islam did indeed have a fairly tolerant view of preIslamic learning in some periods, however the great “closing” of the Islamic system of thought (the judgement that there was no new fundemental knowledge to be discovered) occured in the early middle ages in the main part of the Islamic world. There have always been Muslims who rejected this closing – but they became a small minority.
For all the vile behaviour of the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages (and after – and the vile behaviour of its Protestant enemies), it was never its main doctrine the no great new things remained undiscovered (for all its persecution of people who discovered things that it did not like).
A more tolerant view persisted in Spain (where the last of the old ruling family of the Muslims (the Umayyads) fled and founded a new Caliphate) – but this system of government in Spain (i.e. the famous civilization of Cordoba (from 929) this fell into Civil War in the 11th century – long before it was retaken (retaken for it had been a Christian city for more than 500 years before it became a Muslim city in 711 – and when the Muslims captured it they virutally destoyed it) by the Christians in 1236.
And one thinks of the evil intolerace of Ferdinand and Isobella in the late 15th century one must also think of the intolerance of the waves of Muslims from North Africa who came into Spain during the periods of civil strife after the fall of the Cordaba Caliphate.
For all the disgusting activities of Christians the majority Christian view is that most of the Bible (including most of the New Testiment) is NOT the direct word of God – it is the word of various men inspired by God.
This is not and has never been the majority view of Muslims of the Koran. This is held to be the literal and direct word of God (revealed to the Prophet and then written down by scribes under his direction)
Given some of the contents of the Koran this is unfortunate.
The “rationalism” of the Muslims that one writer above mentioned is actually this – a getting away from the messing business of various interpretations of an contradictory text (the Bible), this is not a rationalism that libertarians should welcome.
Nor is the Islamic doctrine of predestination – another thing various Western philosophers found “rational”.
Such determinism was always a powerful view in Christianity as well, but it has been (and still is) resisted.
Once there had been great resistance to predestination (i.e. really determinism) in Islamic thought – but such resistance (apart from a tiny minority) collapsed in the early middle ages.
Posted by Paul Marks at February 1, 2006 08:43 PM “”
To which I might add that although the early Arab Muslims may have been brave and adventurous, great traders and canny middlemen, superb calvary tacticians and sailors; the crediting of them with “creating” a great civilization in the early Caliphate is overstated. It seems more to me that it was the breaking of the military barriers between the Roman/Hellenist Mediteranian and Persia/Sassanid on the one hand and the opening of freer trade and contact with Hindu India/Buddist South East Asia on the other, all of whose technologies and peoples and philosophies met freely and openly for the first time ( and for only a few generations) in the Levant/Mesopotamia/Yemen. This flowering of creativity was credited to the Arabs because they held the sword hand and did not, at the beginning, cut off innovation or debate. This tolerance soon changed ( truth is in the Prophets’ Koran; if books/thoughts agree with the Koran then they are redundant and only second rate shadows of the Holy Writ/Mohammed’s teachings and hence unnecessary to persue/develop, if books/ideas contradict the Prophets’ Koran (in any way) they are then vile blasphemies to be expunged and destroyed) as Muslim clerics became more sophisticated, aware and comprehending of the subtleties and dangers of philosophy meeting theology and the Caliphs knowing full well where their power base rested. I am afraid that this cultural stasis lasts to today and I am reminded of the last time a profoundly conservative/religious even clannish society found itself wrenching itself apart modernizing and adapting to the West, Japan.
Sincerely,
Robert Albin
Calgary
But, I’m no expert
* the last slave raids on Nothern Atlantic Europe, by the Barbary Pirates, were as late as the 18th Century
Support Denmark Banners at the dissident frogman
http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/dacha/001580.html
Any depiction of Mohammed is against Islamic law. It outrages Muslims. An image of Mohammed is a personal insult to a Muslim. They protested, urged a boycott, waved signs, warned of revenge. Others are saying it is about free speech. This is important, there is a dialogue..good. I have no problem with that. I’d like a picture of Mohammed anyway, I am not worried about free speech. I felt insulted when I saw a protester’s sign “Europe. Take some lessons from 9/11” Maybe because I live in in Canada carrying the picture of Mohammed could be illegal. What if I made a sign that said “I have a picture of Mohammed in my head” ?
Judy said: “As I implied in an earlier post, how do we reclaim the media and universities if our public school system’s a breeding ground for proles to serve the left-wing state?”
I fully agree. Our thrice weekly newspaper just included a twelve (12!) page insert for the ‘Global Film Festival Nanaimo’, sponsored by Malaspina University College. The focus is “environmental issues,human rights, social issues,womens’ issues, native rights, north/south issues and international solidarity.”
The more than 40 films include ‘The Revolution Will Not be Televised’ (Hugo Chavez, “colourful folk hero, beloved by his nation’s working class…”) Hijacking Catastrophe: 9/11- Fear and the Selling of American Empire, Wal-Mart, the High Cost of Low Price etc. etc.
In an attempt to provide ‘balance’ they feature one ‘pro free enterprise’ film: Why Wal-Mart Works’, but they follow the introduction with an invitation: If you want to discuss OPPOSING points of view about Wal-Mart and it’s methods, come to the workshop, “Whats wrong with Wal-Mart…”
Funny, but it’s the only film with such an invitation to express a different perspective.
I think I’ll be visiting my local University to see if I can’t ‘follow the money’ for this expensive ‘Film Festival’
My support is the same as a couple on this post, I now look for Danish products to buy.
Robert
If you are in Calgary you are lucky. Down on 10 ave SW there is a Danish Deli (or that is where it was last time I was there) They have a large selection of all kinds of good things to eat imported from all the Scandinavian countries
Dawn
It is on 10th Ave SW (south side,lots parking) about 6th St and is the Danish/Canadian Cultural Centre. Lots of excellent imports.
Robert Albin
Calgary
It worries me that if violent Neo-Nazi extremists clash with these violent Muslim extremists, they might be perceived as defenders of Christianity.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…”
– Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:43-44)
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:43-44;&version=31;
Duke “I also am curious to know how the overtly secular Liberalist leftist Democrats in the west, are so quick to take the side of the most radical hard core religious sect the world has ever known.”
As an overtly Liberal lefty let me say I’m not on “their” side. Go ahead and protest the muslims all you want that’s your right. I’m just not going to join you in calls like this one….
“Islam has proven over and over that it is incompatible with our modern world … One of us has to go.”
This sounds like something out of Mein Kampf. Now that was a man who knew how to deal with a religon he didn’t like.
My response to this whole flap is to go onto english speaking Iranian blogs (of which there are several) and talk to progressive Iranians. You should give it a try, it just might give you a different perspective.
I pesonaly wouldn’t post the cartoons but hey its a free country so you guys can do what you like. Accompanying it with calls of “nuke Islam” or inferenes of getting rid of these people I don’t get behind.
And no I don’t approve of the actions of the embassy burners either. I’m just not whipping myself into a lather over it.
Jose said:
“This sounds like something out of Mein Kampf. Now that was a man who knew how to deal with a religon he didn’t like.”
Jose, that is NOT a parallel. You see, the Muslims have DEMONSTRATED OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN that they’re malevolent and hellbent on killing all who differ from them. How in the world isn’t that incompatible with the modern world?
As for “progressive” (whatever that means; it has never, ever been clearly defined by the left) Iranians, I’m afraid a few Iranians who may not agree with President Ahmadinejad will not make any difference whatsoever. Ahmadinejad has the power; he’s completely committed to jihad simply because he believes it’s Allah’s will and he must spread, according to his religious sect, “tyranny and oppression” so as to hasten the coming of the Messiah. He has explicitly declared his intent to not only “wipe Israel off the map” but to also wipe out all “Anglo-Saxons” everywhere.
Well? Are you unenlightened? Do you lack the truth? Do you only let the brainwashed so-called “progressive” folks tell you what to think? Do you not relentlessly seek the truth about the current state of the world for yourself?
I’m terribly afraid that you don’t understand.
And it is wrong to compare Hitler’s treatment of the Jewish people to the need to stand on guard and be ready to respond with force should Islam launch an all-out war on the non-Islamic world.
Chamberlain was wrong. Hitler promised he wouldn’t invade Britain, but he lied. Appeasement and dialogue are irrelevant in the face of such monsters.
Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Always remember, the Islamists are the ones who want to wipe out Jewish and other non-Islamic peoples in the world, exactly as Hitler aimed to wipe out all he deemed “non-Aryan”. Today, Bin Laden, Hamas and Mahmud Ahmadinejad are exactly the same kind of monsters! Don’t you see, Jose?
I hope, for your sake, you’ll open your mind and not simply think inside the tiny box given to you by so-called “progressives”.
Question the left. They are dangerous in their dogmas even though they believe they’re righteous.
Inform yourself.
Canadian Sentinel,
I do see radical Islam as a serious threat. I’m not on “their” side.
I also happen to have a lot of Muslim friends who I’m quite fond of. These are people whose values and behaviour is perfectly in synch with the west. So you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t want to see them nuked, interned or somehow gotten rid of. Mainstream muslims are the real victims of these radicals. Why don’t we get on their side and help them free themselves from these jokers? And don’t complain that you don’t hear from them. Its not that they aren’t blogging.
If the only Muslims you pay attention to are violent radicals and terrorists then what do you expect to hear? Why not look at the whole picture before you build the internment camps.
But go ahead and protest how you wish. I may be a lefty but I’m not so politicaly correct that I’d admonish someone for speaking their mind. But I’m not going to let inferences of nuking or getting rid of Muslims go unanswered either. If heckling calls for some kind of final solution for Islam makes me a colloborator then so be it.
There are plenty of Iranians out there right now trying to come to imagine a freer society where people aren’t persecuted for their race, religon, sexual orientation or point of veiw. The good news is that they’ve discovered the blogosphere now and for the first time they can converse with one another in a public forum without fear of reprisal. Time is on their side. I’m confident (not certain) that they will gain control of their country and put their current leaders on trial.
Why don’t you try talking to a few of them? You might be suprised by what they have to say
http://blogsbyiranians.com/ and I’m sure that a number of them would like to hear from a voice from the other side of the wall. That’s probably why they are blogging in English instead of Farsi.
Jose, I’m off to work right now, but I can say you do have some valid points with which I agree.
I also would assure you I wouldn’t recommend a “final solution” for Islam, so let’s not start using this inflammatory language. The people on this thread do realize that there are plenty of rational Muslims, but the bad guys like Hamas, Bin Laden and Ahmadinejad really must be dealt with. They cannot be reasoned with, as history has shown. And the good Muslims are powerless to stop them, unless they choose to actually excommunicate all Jihadists from their Mosques or something else really meaningful like that. You see, they live in fear for their lives. What can they do?
I’ll check out the blog you provided above.
Certainly we in the Western World can discuss it and come to agreements. I just wanted to make sure you understood the nature of the danger facing us all from the monsters like Ahmadinejad, who, btw, are allied with other brutal totalitarian states like China and North Korea, which are rapidly amassing their militaries and nuclear arsenals as we speak. This scares the crap out of me and I do fear they may have a hidden long-run agenda to take over the free world and spread “tyranny and oppression”. The governments of these nations are as ruthless and malevolent as those of Hitler and the Imperial Japanese in WWII.
Gotta go, but it’s good to discuss these very, very important matters whether one leans “left” or “right” (wish there were more sensible labels than those simplistic ones, eh?)…
In the meantime, I’ve posted on the subject on my own blog. I’ve put up many links to info, etc.
http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com