36% of Western Canadians consider separation an option – including 43% of Albertans.
Updated: Full poll breakdown here.
105 Replies to “No Longer The Fringe”
All right, that’s it, I’ve had it with this crap. Once again, Mark Collins and Maz2 have managed to hijack an otherwise perfectly reasonable discussion with something completely off topic. Call for the sheriff, red courtesy telephone please, there are louts in your anteroom.
Maple stump. you wrote “Jeanne Sauv� was not exactly a household name outside of Quebec as Ray Hnatyshyn didn’t exactly roll off the tongues of Quebeckers, both turned out to be decent GG’s”.
Jeanne Sauve a decent GG? Isn’t she the haughty, arrogant twit who kicked our unwashed asses out of the grounds of Rideau Hall and the average Canadian slob wasn’t allowed back onto the grounds until we got a new GG? I agree Ray Hnatyshyn was a decent man but when it comes to GGs ………. I don’t give a continental damn.
New G-G is going there to present the order of the canada to the bikini-proud Simpson, Homer’s adopted daughter. Marje stayed at home.
>>>>G-G is a trivial pursuit of AdScam Martin and the Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The Governor-General has been made irrelevant; down with the G-G.
CTV
Bikini-proud Simpson makes Toronto visit
Globe and Mail – 1 Aug 2005
Toronto — Jessica Simpson was in the limelight again yesterday, this time in Toronto, where she was on hand with co-stars to promote the upcoming Dukes of Hazzard movie. Simpson teetered into the lounge of …
I’ve yet to hear a convincing argument why we need a GG. Appointing a penguin would have the same relevance to me.
Maple stump: I suppose my outrage (rare but present now) stems from the fact that the person nominated to be Governor General is a minor television personality.
Who just happens to fit a certain liberal profile.
If Michaelle Jean is to be the next Governor General, logic suggests that Don Newman should be the next Prime Minister.
I’d prefer the ghost of Normie Kwong.
To be brutal, but I am mad at this mockery of the office for clearly political ends: Queen (‘s representative) Creole.
And I do mean it about the ghost of Normie Kwong. http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=14249
Mark
Ottawa
Mark, would you agree then that portly white men fit a certain conservative profile? 😉
The Queen and Her Representative were both present during the Librano$ Party of Canada crisis, not to mention the constitutional crisis. Did either of them do anything at all?
Zanada: Presented by AdScam Martin, host; with co-hostess, G-G, somebody from Quebec. Live on CBC: and now, Don Cherry. Don, whaddya think of the new Gov-Gen.? Zinc she can skate real good on the Canal? Gees, donknow; hope she wears a (bleep).
O, Zanada… [blah, blah, blah,…]
Quebec television host to represent Queen in Canada: sources
OTTAWA (CP) – Michaelle Jean, a Haitian-born television journalist based in Quebec, will be Canada’s next governor general, senior sources said Wednesday. Full Story
Canada’s Prince of Pot still in jail while supporters scramble to post bail
VANCOUVER (CP) – The leader of the B.C. Marijuana Party was still behind bars Wednesday, despite being granted bail a day earlier.
chip,
Never would have seen it. Have CBC and CTV locked out. Don’t want to risk the chance of any child mind that might visit being infected by that crap.
So based on the comments the GG is just going to be another Librano dirtbag. Figures, that should help to advance the the big collapse.
Greg (outside Dallas):
If you really believe that your political system makes Vermont the equal of Texas, you must be pretty naive.
In fact, the Canadian federal system, for all its faults, provides far more political equality: look at Prince Edward Island, which has barely the population of Hamilton, Ontario (if that) yet the constitutional clout of the province of Ontario.
As for Alberta, its population is now hovering around three million with apparently nowhere to go but up. If this continues, I believe we are not far away from the day when two provinces will be calling the shots politically in Canada – and, with just about the lowest birthrate in the country, Quebec isn’t going to be one of them!
Alberta is inching closer to the time when its demographics will match its economic power. Canadian elections are probably going to be won in Ontario and Alberta, folks.
Getting grizzly about being a net contributor is an old gripe in every country. In the US, there are certainly have and have-not states. England foots the bill for Scotland and Wales. In Italy, there’s a clear divide between the north and south.
No doubt even within Alberta, there are areas and districts that get more from the provincial treasury than they put in.
In the years preceding Confederation, the Maritime colonies were really wary of signing up to nationhood with “loser” colonies like Upper and Lower Canada.
It was ever thus.
JJM, surely you jest. You appear to be recommending remaining in Canada, when Canada has shown repeatedly that Alberta isn’t even considered as contemptible as a “country cousin.”
I have no issues whatsoever in helping out neighbours, brothers or sisters. I DO, however, have issue with repeatedly (I believe 94 out of 100 years) handing over cash yet being called a whiner, a knuckledragger, a redneck (and not the Merle Haggerdy kind), etc.
As far as I’m concerned, Ottawa and environs can go try to reproduce with themselves. (this is, after all, a family friendly site).
Either you live outside of AB or you’re delusional.
JJM, at 5:13 said, *Would you prefer to be 10% of Canada or 1% of the USA?*
Also JJM said, *I am a Canadian, period.*
I will add; China is trying to buy Canada’s building blocks from us.
Devided we fall, united we stand and even if we remain united, the road ahead is going to get very bumpy.
The Americans understand economy of scale. They never even kid about splitting off a state here or there.
At one tenth the population of the U.S., we can not even afford to split off P.E.I.
This poll can not be taken seriously. The pollster is a Professor Faron Ellis. A community college teacher and we all know teachers in Canada have a pronounced left leaning bias and are loyal to their union.
Polling methods were explained by words like, * Using random selection methods.* What kind of cream-puff specifics are those?
Aw, come on. This is a long way from *Decima*, and I do not trust them either.
The good professor states all four Western provinces feel * they are willing to consider the idea of forming a new nation, independent of Ottawa.*
Well, of course, most open minded people are willing to consider the idea.
The question should have been; *In a referendum, would you vote to seperate from Canada?*. Never mind this, *are you willing to consider blah – blah stuff.*
Polls are for dogs and power lines.
The professor claims Saskatchewan returned 31.9% in favour of separation results. How can that be when grants for saving farmers are so essential. Are Sask. farmers naturally self-destructive?
I to am a Canadian, period.
I will add *proud* to that statement when libscammers are turfed and Conservatives are passing bills like C-11 to safeguard all our revenues from laundering and pilferage. 73s TG
TonyGuitar,
The people who today are saying they are “willing to consider separation”, are the people who 10-20 years from now, will be the ones voting yes in the referendum to actually do it if something isn’t done to fix this screwed-up country of ours. The Liberals (read: ONTARIO) are pathologically incapable of even admitting there’s a problem, let alone having the will to fix it (they may, somewhere in those intellectually bankrupt consciousnesses, recognize there is a problem, but since the problem doesn’t affect them, they don’t care about it). How to put this to Ontarians in a way they might actually take notice of it? “40% of Western Canadians say a Liberal reelection would increase their willingness to explore separation.” (I want to know the similar figure in Quebec.)
If that doesn’t get Ontario’s attention, nothing will, which would mean the country’s not worth saving anyway.
Separate from this murderous place? Brought to Canada by the Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
TO TO TO TO TO TO TO TO TO TO………
Boy shot in night of drive-bys
Man killed, five others mowed down in shootings
By BRETT CLARKSON AND BRODIE FENLON, TORONTO SUN
Family Members of shooting victims speak to police at the Finch Humber hospital last night. Six people were shot in two incidents. (Stan Behal, SUN)
A FOUR-YEAR-OLD boy was among four victims gunned down outside a townhouse near Jane St. and Finch Ave. W. during a bloody drive-by shooting at 9:50 p.m. last night.
The shocking shooting followed an earlier drive-by murder in a crime-ridden area of Rexdale just before 8:30 p.m. that claimed the life of a man and sent another to hospital with a gunshot to the leg.
No one was injured in a third shooting after midnight at Jane St. and Stanley Rd., where four rounds were fired, including two slugs that hit a convenience store.
A veteran officer said he was disgusted by the violence, which he said should “wake up” people to the problem
The whiners in TO are whining, as usual: Let ’em sweat in the dark????? Liberal whiners, of course. Turn up the coolers; that will turn up the heat on the Liberals.
Ontario on brink of blackout
PONTYPOOL, Ont. (CP) – People in Ontario will have to curb their consumption of electricity for at least two more summers before new generating capacity finally comes on line, Premier Dalton McGuinty warned Wednesday>>>>>>>
Separate from the Liberal whiners?
“”Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US? “”
I just want to own 100% of my own property…in Canada I can’t do this…..so I have a 100% stake in a free Alberta.
Candace:
“Canada has shown repeatedly that Alberta isn’t even considered as contemptible as a “country cousin.”
Do not conflate partisan politics with patriotism. You are only playing into the hands of the Liberals and their ilk. Most folks I know (including myself!) definitely DO NOT have any contempt for Alberta. If anything, we are often rather envious of you. I think it’s fantastic your province is doing so well.
“I DO, however, have issue with repeatedly (I believe 94 out of 100 years) handing over cash yet being called a whiner, a knuckledragger, a redneck (and not the Merle Haggerdy kind), etc.”
Er, actually, check your history.
I think you’ll find that until the oil boom set off by Leduc Number One in 1947, Alberta’s economy was essentially agricultural and no great blockbuster.
The economic centre of Canada was still very much in Ontario and Quebec. In fact, Montreal rather than Toronto was the financial centre of the country.
So Alberta might well have been on the receiving end of Federal largesse in those days.
There is no doubt that a number of factors – not least that oil boom and Quebec separatism – have been pushing the economic centre of Canada steadily westward.
My guess is that it’s now somewhere around Waterloo, Ontario but still moving west at a rapid rate of knots (ha ha!). My personal sense is, given the way Alberta and Ontario are going, it will eventually lodge itself at some mythical spot near Flin Flon (ha ha!).
So in fact, the cash handovers to Ottawa from Alberta seem to have really started in earnest some time AFTER 1947.
We’re seeing much the same thing happen now out in Newfoundland where federal money was always welcome but now, faced with a flow of oil revenue, the province doesn’t want to pay anything back into the national pot.
“Either you live outside of AB or you’re delusional.”
All right then, either you live inside Alberta or you’re delusional. It works both ways.
John Crittenden:
“If Quebec separates how will they replace the money Ottawa gives them each year? If Alberta separates they will simply keep the billions they give Ottawa each year.”
In both cases, the separatist logic is faulty. It presumes a Canadian economy without a Canada. Both Alberta and Quebec run the very real risk of ruining their own economies by precipitating the collapse of Canada’s.
“Speaking as a former and future Albertan, why should Albertans go down with the sinking ship? Sometimes it’s just a good idea to get off. As soon as enough Albertans come to their senses, and when a politician with guts steps up and tells it like it is, we’re gone.”
The thing is, if you do “get off,” Canada WILL probably sink. And who the hell knows the consequences of that action: you don’t, I don’t. Prepared to risk your pension on it?
SDC:
“50 equal partners in the US?”
Are you so credulous as to believe that Idaho is an equal partner with Texas in the US?
JJM
“The thing is, if you do “get off,” Canada WILL probably sink. And who the hell knows the consequences of that action: you don’t, I don’t. Prepared to risk your pension on it?”
You struck the nail on the head there – but out here we are willing to take that risk – why – because no one in Ontario is listening. The country is broken and there is no political will to fix it. As long as that situation remains – and based on the current state of affairs this situation is only going to get worse – we’re done.
Please, please save me a spot. Somewhere nice, in the foothills preferably. Do I need to sign something?
SDC:
“50 equal partners in the US?”
Are you so credulous as to believe that Idaho is an equal partner with Texas in the US?
Politically, at least; the political system in Canada has never been anything but a tyranny of the majority, and the politicians use that to full advantage. Sure, they’ll make noises occasionally about “alleviating alienation”, but when it comes down to walking the walk, it’s “back of the bus, redneck, Ontario and Quebec will decide what’s best for you, and you’ll like it”. The US recognized the danger in this from the outset, and incorporated both rep by pop and an equal number of senators in each state to offset this. The current situation in Canada is analogous to having California and New York ruling the US, with no-one else being able to even have any input on decisions that affect them.
There are models for separating a country without significant disruption to both parties in the split. Czechoslovakia split up into Slovakia and the Czech Republic with barely a problem. It will only be a economic disaster if either Canada or Alberta is unreasonable in the negotiations. Alberta, like Quebec has done, would require a fund to stabilize currencies in such an event. As for the talk of statehood, there has been no interest in this matter from the United States since they do not want to induce instability in Canada. Alberta would need to be willing to go it alone for several decades at least.
I a bit on the fence but wouldn’t vote for separation since, as some have indicated, perhaps the population dynamics within Canada will help out the Western cause in a few decades. After all, some have predicted the oil sands to be about 10X their current size by 2040. Alberta WILL be a factor within Canada whether Ottawa wants it or not.
The new Queens rep wasn’t born in Canada, rather she was born in that great British colony of Haiti. Wait a second.
With all the petro dollars Alberta has and will be getting, it only makes good economic sense to separate. But before separating, wouldn’t it be fun to see Alberta economically bring the bastards to their knees and crush them under heel first?
“The current situation in Canada is analogous to having California and New York ruling the US, with no-one else being able to even have any input on decisions that affect them.”
Your analogy doesn’t hold any water.
California and New York are the first and third biggest states respectively by population. But together they only account for 19% of the US population. Even if you add in the second biggest state by population (Texas), you still only end up with 26% of the whole American population.
Those demographics are the reason New York and California couldn’t stop George Bush if they tried (and apparently they did try).
In Canada, Ontario and Quebec represent 62% of the Canadian population so it’s only logical they would have considerable electoral power. But there’s a demographic dynamic at play here: Ontario’s population continues to grow but Quebec’s is flattening out at just over seven million.
Meanwhile, the West as a block (BC-Alberta-Saskatchewan-Manitoba) has 29% of the Canadian population and (thanks to Alberta but no thanks to the dopey policies in the other three provinces) that figure continues to grow.*
The time is fast approaching when Quebec will no longer be a factor (and don’t the Quebec separatists damn well know it!) in Federal elections.
It’ll all be down to Ontario and the West.
Canada’s provinces would actually seem to have MORE constitutional powers than the average state. The Civil War sorted out the question of federal powers versus state powers pretty definitively for the US. I go back to the example of PEI, which has 0.45% of Canada’s population but pretty well all the constitutional powers of – Alberta! And I seem to recall that Manitoba was able to sink the Meech Lake Accord quite handily…
* A hypothetical “State of Alberta” would represent LESS than 1% of the US population.
“Getting grizzly about being a net contributor is an old gripe in every country. In the US, there are certainly have and have-not states. England foots the bill for Scotland and Wales. In Italy, there’s a clear divide between the north and south.”
And in how many of those countries are the net contributors denied any real say in how the country is run? That’s the real issue here.
I don’t know about you guys, but it makes me very sad that a good chuck of the population feels as if they are better off without Canada.
Librano$$$$$ suck!
~B
And are you credulous enough to believe that the West will be granted the powers that are due to it by the federal government? On a strictly rep by pop basis, Quebec is already over-represented by approximately 6 MPS, with the same situation present in the Maritime provinces (eg. why does PEI have 2 MPS, when they should have only 1 under a rep by pop system?) The benevolent dictators who run this country won’t change the system as long as it’s to their benefit to have it the way it is; if it was rep by pop now, Martin’s minority would have fallen a long time ago.
I live in Alberta. There is no way that close to half of the people I know are in favour of separation. In fact, the only peple I hear talking separtion are 3 or 4 people who are staunch Conservatives who are frustrated with the federal system. They felt screwed by Trudeau, Clark, Mulroney and Chretien and feel that Ralph Klein is the greatest leader ever. But when asked they realize that the �Republic of Alberta� would be costly (ie set up a foreign affairs office, customs, armed forces etc) and ineffectual within North America.
This poll is pure crap.
Actually, SDC, you’re mistaken: PEI has 4 MPs. All Liberal, of course. Take away those three undeserved seats and the government would’ve fallen in May.
Mixing and matching rep-by-pop with rep-by-region in the same government house is stupid, stupid, stupid. Why should 75,000 Islanders get twice the say in the Commons as 200,000 Albertans?
I’M not sure where JJM gets his #’s. I’m sure he is a passionate Canadian. P.E.I with about 110K pop. is guaranteed 4 house seats. Que. with a declining pop.(about 7 million) is guaranteed 75 seats, as well as 3SSC judges and more Senators than 7 million Westerners. Alberta has 30 seats, Man. & Sask 14 each. As to equal political weight with Ontario is to laugh! Ont. has 108 seats with a growing pop. Alberta will never catch up. Finally as a former resident of Man. please get the facts of Meech right. with a minority Gov’t. Premier Filmon appointed an all party group to ask Manitobans what they thought of Meech – they covered every turkey trail and whistle stop in the Prov. In addition it was agreed that only a unanimous vote in the leg. would provide agreement. Harper, a native N.D.P member refused unanimous consent waving his eagle feather.
What was the name of the “Queen” when the “Alberta Act” and the “Saskatchewan Act” were drafted in 1905?
Section 9 of Canada’s Constitution Act, 1867 states: “The Executive Government and Authority of and over Canada is hereby declared to continue and be vested in the Queen”.
How does “Rupert’s Land and the North-western Territory” sound?
aaa and JJM;
This poll was a wake up call for people like you! If you live in the west you should be considering looking for a ‘posting’ in the east!! Western Independance is a vision for people who want to live in a country that speaks for them and their values.
Western values are scorned in eastern Canada. Western people are only ‘invited out’ if they are paying the bill. They are sneered at by the ‘sophisticated parasites’ ordering the best wine.
There are a few people in the west who bought into the ‘seedy, Bolshevick poor people first ‘ concept of the late Tom Douglas – esp. in Sask – but the ‘pickings’ are getting pretty thin in that province as most of their productive young people have moved to Alta. Sask. has a lame duck premier that even the welfarocrates have difficulty respecting. The province is at the brink of developing the oil sands so the elitist welfarocrates can eat cake! The end of the NDP gulag in that province is written on these oil sands. Develop them – the NDP losses power- leave the status quo – the welfarocrates run out of free enterprisers to fleece. If Alta declared Independance all the productive areas and people would leave the gulag – same goes for B.C. The Republic of Alberta would end up being much bigger and much more Conservative than it is in this poll. There are a lot of transplanted Liberanos living in the cities – these people would return to their ‘roots’ if Alberta became an independant nation. Conservative people would replace them in a heartbeat.
The Independant states of Estonia, Lituania, Latvia and Finland are viable countries and they were once ‘colonies’ of the Soviet Union. Self Determination is the right of every free nation. Since Canada is not a country that respects the values of the Western end of the nation then the nation of Canada will better reflect it’s people without the anti communist mind-set of the west. As for pensions, health care etc. – do you people really believe that myth? Yes, well you need to get your own act together ‘down east’ so your dps from the west can find what they won’t have in an Independant Alta -cradle to grave welfare and grannies to change their diapers.
It’s funny how only Liberals can be engaged in a conflict of interest or be held responsible for misrepresentation, something that the Western Standard is doing with this poll.
They hired Faron Ellis, chief pollster for JMCK Communications, which is a company owned by the founding managers of the Western Standard itself.
Have a read: http://www.jmck.ca/about/team.cfm http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=help
If PMPM had a polling company and cited results from this as evidence of some subject, I’m sure most conservatives would be keen enough to point this out.
The methodology of the poll is quite flawed because it does not cite the number of respondents who declined to comment. This means the “37%, plus or minus 2.6%” statement means nothing.
Don’t leave your brains at the door just because you want to uphold a politically biased and methodologically flawed poll. If anything, this study will do more damage to future polls on the subject of Western Alienation, if and when they are ever carried out by EKOS or Ipsos-Reid.
I live in Ontario. Is it too late to move to Alberta? Whether it’s the summer smog around here or what, I don’t know, but the level of basic common sense around here has NOSE-DIVED in the last 3 or 4 years …
JJM, if I am politically naive, it’s about Canada, not America.
You keep referring to one state being “unequal” to another. This is simply a foreign concept in the minds of most Americans. I do not think Texas is more “important” than Vermont. The whole idea is a strange one to the US.
One does occasionally run into some star-struck adolescent who would like to blow their hick town and go to New York City, or something… the Broadway shows! the restaurants! the museums! or maybe Hollywood! where every man can go to bed with Pamela Anderson! (well, Pamela is Canadian, but you will have to be an American rock star to go to bed with her.)
Seriously though, we just don’t think in terms of one state being unequal to another. In fact a couple of years ago Senator Jim Jeffords from Vermont jumped out of the Republican Party and joined the Democrats. (Jumping Jim, as we called him.) This caused the entire voting power of the Senate to shift simply because a Vermont senator has a co-equal vote with any other senator. In the Jeffords instance, for example, Vermont had more power than Texas because of the move. Tom Daschle (may he live in infamy) was briefly Majority Leader of the Senate, then became Minority Leader despite the fact he is from South Dakota, a very low population state.
There may be some good reason that Alberta shouldn’t become a state (I can’t think of any), but inequality based on population simply isn’t one of them.
Again
Alberta is not interested in becoming a state. we can go alone!!!
AAA said;
I live in Alberta. There is no way that close to half of the people I know are in favour of separation. In fact, the only people I hear talking separtion are 3 or 4 people who are staunch Conservatives who are frustrated with the federal system. They felt screwed by Trudeau, Clark, Mulroney and Chretien and feel that Ralph Klein is the greatest leader ever. But when asked they realize that the �Republic of Alberta� would be costly (ie set up a foreign affairs office, customs, armed forces etc) and ineffectual within North America.
This poll is pure crap.* aaa
===================================
Talking informally with people around you is far more likely to reveal the truth than any *professorial Poll*.
The good fortunes of Albertans comes from a windfall of Nature.
Albertans did not manufacture the oil in the ground. Albertans were able to develope and profit by this rich natural windfall because Canada provided the safe living conditions to do so.
Our stable way of living was bought with the lives of Canadians who fought for it from all parts of Canada, not just Alberta.
Albertans are enjoying the world’s richest lifestyle of any country in the world.
If Albertans bring the rest of Canada to it’s knees by not sharing windfall oil profits, then Alberta expects no future.
Shared oil revenues contribute to a healthy Canada, ready to come to Alberta’s defense and ready to buy Albert’s products.
Oil and gas are a rich resource, but once installed they employ few workers. A rich province with high unemployment is a recipe for disaster.
There is no chance that I would call someone names who fails to agree here. I will only ask that we look carefully at the overall picture please.
Borders within Canada will only cripple our ability to defend a take-over by China from within, for example.
OK, this may seem a surprise, but I listened to a brilliant speaker who was Chinese. He spoke english very effectively and it made me uneasy.
He was addressing various company board members and Canadian government industry department heads.
He strongly suggested mega joint ventures, and I thought, yeah, where Canadian expertise and industrial secrets would be provided for free.
Just in case you are not up to date. Canada has a goldmine of technological, chemical, medical and industrial, not to mention software secrets and processes that other countries could profit by.
This is no time to be fighting amongst ourselves when September is fast approaching and we have some heavy house-cleaning to do.
We have been sidetracked with Parrish, Hans Island, SSM bill-38 and other non-events. Time to ask ourselves, why?
73s TG
Well aaa lives under a rock, so what do you expect. I can say that everyone I talk to wants out, oh and you want more numbers: http://www.am770chqr.com/station/corus_qod_poll.cfm?PollID=9873
Why can’t you nay sayers just admit that there’s an issue?… or is it a deeply embedded liberal trait that won’t allow you to accept the truth.
What is remarkable is just how tone-deaf Canadians are to all the problems right under our own noses. We live in perpetual denial. It’s practically a national passtime. Right after Bush was re-elected, the CBC ran one brain-dead story after another about how “divided” the US is. With childlike glee they told us how hundreds of thousands of Americans were getting ready to pack their bags and move to Canada – “Oh look how wonderful we are! Everyone wants to be like us! They love us!”, and on, and on …
Well, those Americans never came. California is still very much a part of the US, and so too the rest of the “blue” states.
Meanwhile, Quebec and Western Canada is heading towards separation quite nicely. Whoo hoo! But hey, forget all that and let’s talk about the supposedly “divided” Americans instead. Why wake the fuck up, when we can stroke our egos instead? Right?
I have never posted here before, but decided to add my weight to the chorus crying for a long overdue divorce from this troublesome overspending and abusive partner. I have always favored leaving this oligarchic, neo-feudalist and socialist one party state. Politically it is on the level of the Phillipines or Thailand. I was going to throw in Mexico, but Mexico is now actually utilitarian i.e. governed in the interests of the ruled, not the rulers. Ontario and its fiefdom is governed in the interests of the rulers. It is surprising that Ontarians themselves do not have a problem with this, but from their voting record they clearly do not. It could even be jested that the paying of taxes is the national pastime. As there is no credible cause for the heavy expense of this nation state, it is not at war, it is not a ministate endangered by ongoing and severe natural disasters. The only reason for it is the excess power given to absolutist and kleptomaniac gang of feudalist cronies by the obslolete constitutional arrangment of Ottawa. That arrangement provides Ontario with its power and livelihood. They thus have no motivation to ever change it. Humans will only change when the cost of not changing has grown greater than the cost of changing. I frankly couldn’t care less what Ontario thinks or does. I have no intention of ever even visiting the place, never mind living there or sending all my income there. I see no need for a partnership with Ontario or its satellites. Politics works best on the smallest possible scale, economics works best on the largest possible scale. It is almost always better to be a self Governing durisdiction trading as freely as possible with the rest of the world. I have always been in favor of any alternative option to the current situation. I would favor joining the US OR total independence. I have always expected that the latter is the more likely to actually happen. I am a little more optimistic about this life after seeing this poll but it still seems a little too good to actually happen. One thing I can say for certain, I would only consider living in Canada, read Alberta or BC, if it DOES separate. But much more probably, I expect to be moving out at the earliest possible opportunity. My personal decisions are my personal decisions, they will not be made by a distant and arbritrary power.
Narrmer – well said…. your definitely not alone…
Aaron,
I’ve worked for polling companies, and they don’t count or keep track of those who don’t wish to participate in the study. If, for example, you go to the Compas website you’ll see that in their studies, they don’t mention those who don’t participate.
As for your allegations about the connections between WS managers and JMCK polling — your link to the WS is blank. Given your error in the above point, one can only assume that you are also in error with respect to this claim as well.
Finally, given that every major polling company in Canada has close ties to the Liberals, and often receives specific phone lists from the Party when conducting their polls (I’ve seen them!), it seems there is little choice out there for conducting a controversial poll that could disagree with the Librano line.
The WS polling results are roughly the same as the ratio of pro-anti separation calls to _Saskatchewan_ talk radio.
I can’t believe that the same Liberals who went sleep-walking into the last Quebec referendum are dismissing the growing support for western separatism. These are the same people who came within a percentage point of losing Quebec.
It’s deja vu, all over again – except that the West has the resources to actually follow through on the threat.
As a history fan, I’ve occasionally pondered (in a purely “thinking outside the box” context) what Canada’s society and economy would be like if some provinces chose to change their status within Confederation.
Canada’s political Achilles’ Heel is the lack of an active, elected second legislative body (equivalent to the U.S. Senate). In the U.S., each of the 50 states receives exactly the same number of Senators, who are elected to six-year terms of office. A similar arrangement for Canada could help offset the heavy-handed abuse of power by Ontario-centric, Quebec-appeasing politicians.
It is unclear whether Canada’s political establishment will actually address the democratic deficit in the foreseeable future. “Trust me” and “beware of the angry right-wing maniacs” seem to be the primary principles of the Martin government.
As for Alberta’s future, they are the hardest-working people in the Dominion, yet it seems they are treated by the Ontario-centric political establishment with disdain and disrespect. It is oddly reminiscent of the occasional blue-blood old-school New Yorker or New Englander who looks down their nose at people from Mississippi.
It is up to the citizens of Alberta to determine their future status with Ottawa and Confederation.
I can’t believe that the same Liberals who went sleep-walking into the last Quebec referendum are dismissing the growing support for western separatism.
It’s because Liberals think if they don’t talk about a problem, it doesn’t exist. Who will blow the whistle? It certainly won’t be the Liberal ra-ra band at the CBC. To many, separation is the only way out of this ideological prison. They may be right.
Well, this has been fascinating, Kate.
I must say I’m amazed at the lack of perspective a lot of people seem to have. I mean, I’m no fan of the Libs but some of the postings here would make you believe that we are all starving serfs in a totalitarian dictatorship.
Come off it.
It’s one thing to have a gripe about the sleazy politics of the central government, it’s another to make out as if Albertans are peons crushed under foot by a Stalinesque tyrant in Ottawa.
Are mass arrests of Albertans taking place?
Are women and children in Red Deer starving because a federal pogrom?
Are secret police killing hundreds every day in Edmonton?
I’ll buy resentment at Ontario and Quebec, that’s understandable. But it’s pretty rich for someone in a province as prosperous as Alberta to complain me that they are poor and downtrodden.
Some remarks bordered on rants; I was quite surprised “Narmer” and “jema54” didn’t type their outlandish offerings in ALL CAPS.
Some remarks seemed outright racist in nature – as if somehow Albertans were superior people to those mugs in the rest of Canada (the idea that Albertans “work harder” than the rest of us, for instance).
And I noticed some people weren’t actually paying attention to what I wrote.
Separation is a dodgy, risky business. There is no guarantee of success and the consequences are never as sure as people would like to believe. You can’t control all the loose ends and outcomes and you don’t know where they’ll take you. Alberta is knitted into the Canadian economy; you cannot extract simply yourself from that economy and expect all will be sweetness and light. If that economy collapses, yours takes a drubbing too.
I love the US. I believe that we are very fortunate as a country to have them as a neighbour (beats the hell out having of China or Russia next to us!). But I’m not convinced the American constitutional framework is any better than our own; it too is a work in progress. The grass isn’t necessarily greener on the other side. And Albertans shouldn’t fool themselves that Americans would be happy to see Canada implode. The LAST thing I would want as President is to have to deal with a big mess right on my doorstep.
I’ve lived in the West (in Alberta no less!), in Ontario, in Quebec and “down east.” Some of the posters here would appear to have never lived or rarely visited anywhere else in the country. Some actually ranted about never setting foot in Ontario. Interestingly, I’ve heard “pure laine” Qu�b�cois say that about “le Canada anglais.” I thought they were small-minded, parochial bigots – and I feel the same about anyone else in Canada who says such a thing. And just to reassure you, I believe there are more than a few Torontonians who seem to think the world drops off into space just north of the 401.
Oh, and Mike W:
The facts of Meech are that a single native Canadian in Manitoba was able to deep-six the machinations of an “evil clique of Ontario-Quebec political schemers.”
THAT hardly lends much support to the notion that Westerners have no voice in the country.
It is one thing to carry out a rational conversation in a blog such as this. Just this last week, I joined a discussion of ‘what would Canada do if Alberta separated’ on a Liberal blog. Several people responded that they would dance, party, or otherwise celebrate. When I challenged one guy on his intolerant stance, he stated ‘Nope. I would dance only if Alberta decided to separate. We need Quebec’s progressive voters and MPs. We could do without Alberta’s reactionary troglodytes.’ Canada is polarizing…I’m just not convinced it’s a terminal situation yet.
JJM:
So, do we, westerners, need:
“Are mass arrests of Albertans taking place?
Are women and children in Red Deer starving because a federal pogrom?
Are secret police killing hundreds every day in Edmonton?”
Before we are ‘entitled’ to our own destiny?
Cheers,
lance
Lance:
When I read about threats of separation, it always sounds too much like spoiled kids who want to take their toys and run away.
I just have to believe there is more to the character of Albertans than hissy-fits and petulance.
Brian C:
Truth is, Canada has always been “polarizing.” It’s called “regionalism” and it’s by no means unique to our dear Dominion. It’s an age-old human disease in which everyone in the country but ourselves is a no-good bum.
I’ve no doubt people in northern Luxemburg think the folks in the south are a bunch of lay-abouts.
“Nope. I would dance only if Alberta decided to separate. We need Quebec’s progressive voters and MPs. We could do without Alberta’s reactionary troglodytes”
Yes, I’ve run into a few clowns like this in my time. Anyone who would say or think something like this is no better than the “Albertan separatists” they choose to excoriate.
JJM,
Despite your sanctimonious attitude, let me try to respond to some of your narrow views.
1. The current form of Canadian government — politicians, officals, and the bureaucracy — is incredibly corrupt, and at this point is almost impossible to alter without a massive restructuring — a restructuring that simply cannot happen in its current state no matter which party comes into power.
2. It’s a red herring to be comparing the Canadian situation to a Stalinesque or Hitlerian totalitarian regime. There are more subtle forms of oppression and exclusion, and one could argue that is indeed what is happening to the west and Alberta today.
3. Albertans and westerners are left out of the federal power structure — if one were to do a breakdown of the civil service in Ottawa, what percentage would be from the west or Alberta? Given the new prerequisite that one can only be employed at a higher level if one is already fully bilingual, the numbers of westerners is the lowest it’s ever been. Not to mention that civil service jobs site that only hires people from specific postal codes.
4. Alberta’s complaints about the system are not purely about economics, though that plays a role in the discontent. You’re probably one of those people who sniffs in derision when Albertans or westerners say that they have a unique social and cultural perspective. We do, and it seems to conflict with what Ontario and Quebec believe. And, even though Canada often pats itself on the back for being inclusive and compromising, when it comes to certain Albertan or western social and cultural values there is no compromise.
5. People in Alberta and the west KNOW that separation is a risky enterprise, but if you have lived in the west, then you know that Albertans and westerners are not risk averse. It becomes a matter of time for people in calculating when the potential advantages of separation outweighs the potential disadvantages of the risk of leaving. The threshold is near.
Frankly, I hope the ROC (and Ottawa in particular) continue to keep their heads in the sand and demonize Alberta and the west again in the next election, as seems likely. There is little hope of changing the system for the better, the corruption is too entrenched. Thus, the only way to implement a better system is to start again — the rest of the country is unwilling, so Alberta must do it alone. Perhaps once Alberta shows how it can be done, the ROC will follow and it can rejoin Canada at a later date.
Vive la beau risque!
So it’s “sanctimonious” to want to keep the country in one piece, eh?
Interesting.
By the way, “risque” is masculine, mon ami, so it has to be “le risque.”
All right, that’s it, I’ve had it with this crap. Once again, Mark Collins and Maz2 have managed to hijack an otherwise perfectly reasonable discussion with something completely off topic. Call for the sheriff, red courtesy telephone please, there are louts in your anteroom.
Maple stump. you wrote “Jeanne Sauv� was not exactly a household name outside of Quebec as Ray Hnatyshyn didn’t exactly roll off the tongues of Quebeckers, both turned out to be decent GG’s”.
Jeanne Sauve a decent GG? Isn’t she the haughty, arrogant twit who kicked our unwashed asses out of the grounds of Rideau Hall and the average Canadian slob wasn’t allowed back onto the grounds until we got a new GG? I agree Ray Hnatyshyn was a decent man but when it comes to GGs ………. I don’t give a continental damn.
New G-G is going there to present the order of the canada to the bikini-proud Simpson, Homer’s adopted daughter. Marje stayed at home.
>>>>G-G is a trivial pursuit of AdScam Martin and the Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The Governor-General has been made irrelevant; down with the G-G.
CTV
Bikini-proud Simpson makes Toronto visit
Globe and Mail – 1 Aug 2005
Toronto — Jessica Simpson was in the limelight again yesterday, this time in Toronto, where she was on hand with co-stars to promote the upcoming Dukes of Hazzard movie. Simpson teetered into the lounge of …
I’ve yet to hear a convincing argument why we need a GG. Appointing a penguin would have the same relevance to me.
Maple stump: I suppose my outrage (rare but present now) stems from the fact that the person nominated to be Governor General is a minor television personality.
Who just happens to fit a certain liberal profile.
If Michaelle Jean is to be the next Governor General, logic suggests that Don Newman should be the next Prime Minister.
I’d prefer the ghost of Normie Kwong.
To be brutal, but I am mad at this mockery of the office for clearly political ends: Queen (‘s representative) Creole.
And I do mean it about the ghost of Normie Kwong.
http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=14249
Mark
Ottawa
Mark, would you agree then that portly white men fit a certain conservative profile? 😉
The Queen and Her Representative were both present during the Librano$ Party of Canada crisis, not to mention the constitutional crisis. Did either of them do anything at all?
Zanada: Presented by AdScam Martin, host; with co-hostess, G-G, somebody from Quebec. Live on CBC: and now, Don Cherry. Don, whaddya think of the new Gov-Gen.? Zinc she can skate real good on the Canal? Gees, donknow; hope she wears a (bleep).
O, Zanada… [blah, blah, blah,…]
Quebec television host to represent Queen in Canada: sources
OTTAWA (CP) – Michaelle Jean, a Haitian-born television journalist based in Quebec, will be Canada’s next governor general, senior sources said Wednesday. Full Story
Canada’s Prince of Pot still in jail while supporters scramble to post bail
VANCOUVER (CP) – The leader of the B.C. Marijuana Party was still behind bars Wednesday, despite being granted bail a day earlier.
chip,
Never would have seen it. Have CBC and CTV locked out. Don’t want to risk the chance of any child mind that might visit being infected by that crap.
So based on the comments the GG is just going to be another Librano dirtbag. Figures, that should help to advance the the big collapse.
Greg (outside Dallas):
If you really believe that your political system makes Vermont the equal of Texas, you must be pretty naive.
In fact, the Canadian federal system, for all its faults, provides far more political equality: look at Prince Edward Island, which has barely the population of Hamilton, Ontario (if that) yet the constitutional clout of the province of Ontario.
As for Alberta, its population is now hovering around three million with apparently nowhere to go but up. If this continues, I believe we are not far away from the day when two provinces will be calling the shots politically in Canada – and, with just about the lowest birthrate in the country, Quebec isn’t going to be one of them!
Alberta is inching closer to the time when its demographics will match its economic power. Canadian elections are probably going to be won in Ontario and Alberta, folks.
Getting grizzly about being a net contributor is an old gripe in every country. In the US, there are certainly have and have-not states. England foots the bill for Scotland and Wales. In Italy, there’s a clear divide between the north and south.
No doubt even within Alberta, there are areas and districts that get more from the provincial treasury than they put in.
In the years preceding Confederation, the Maritime colonies were really wary of signing up to nationhood with “loser” colonies like Upper and Lower Canada.
It was ever thus.
JJM, surely you jest. You appear to be recommending remaining in Canada, when Canada has shown repeatedly that Alberta isn’t even considered as contemptible as a “country cousin.”
I have no issues whatsoever in helping out neighbours, brothers or sisters. I DO, however, have issue with repeatedly (I believe 94 out of 100 years) handing over cash yet being called a whiner, a knuckledragger, a redneck (and not the Merle Haggerdy kind), etc.
As far as I’m concerned, Ottawa and environs can go try to reproduce with themselves. (this is, after all, a family friendly site).
Either you live outside of AB or you’re delusional.
JJM, at 5:13 said, *Would you prefer to be 10% of Canada or 1% of the USA?*
Also JJM said, *I am a Canadian, period.*
I will add; China is trying to buy Canada’s building blocks from us.
Devided we fall, united we stand and even if we remain united, the road ahead is going to get very bumpy.
The Americans understand economy of scale. They never even kid about splitting off a state here or there.
At one tenth the population of the U.S., we can not even afford to split off P.E.I.
This poll can not be taken seriously. The pollster is a Professor Faron Ellis. A community college teacher and we all know teachers in Canada have a pronounced left leaning bias and are loyal to their union.
Polling methods were explained by words like, * Using random selection methods.* What kind of cream-puff specifics are those?
Aw, come on. This is a long way from *Decima*, and I do not trust them either.
The good professor states all four Western provinces feel * they are willing to consider the idea of forming a new nation, independent of Ottawa.*
Well, of course, most open minded people are willing to consider the idea.
The question should have been; *In a referendum, would you vote to seperate from Canada?*. Never mind this, *are you willing to consider blah – blah stuff.*
Polls are for dogs and power lines.
The professor claims Saskatchewan returned 31.9% in favour of separation results. How can that be when grants for saving farmers are so essential. Are Sask. farmers naturally self-destructive?
I to am a Canadian, period.
I will add *proud* to that statement when libscammers are turfed and Conservatives are passing bills like C-11 to safeguard all our revenues from laundering and pilferage. 73s TG
TonyGuitar,
The people who today are saying they are “willing to consider separation”, are the people who 10-20 years from now, will be the ones voting yes in the referendum to actually do it if something isn’t done to fix this screwed-up country of ours. The Liberals (read: ONTARIO) are pathologically incapable of even admitting there’s a problem, let alone having the will to fix it (they may, somewhere in those intellectually bankrupt consciousnesses, recognize there is a problem, but since the problem doesn’t affect them, they don’t care about it). How to put this to Ontarians in a way they might actually take notice of it? “40% of Western Canadians say a Liberal reelection would increase their willingness to explore separation.” (I want to know the similar figure in Quebec.)
If that doesn’t get Ontario’s attention, nothing will, which would mean the country’s not worth saving anyway.
Separate from this murderous place? Brought to Canada by the Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
TO TO TO TO TO TO TO TO TO TO………
Boy shot in night of drive-bys
Man killed, five others mowed down in shootings
By BRETT CLARKSON AND BRODIE FENLON, TORONTO SUN
Family Members of shooting victims speak to police at the Finch Humber hospital last night. Six people were shot in two incidents. (Stan Behal, SUN)
A FOUR-YEAR-OLD boy was among four victims gunned down outside a townhouse near Jane St. and Finch Ave. W. during a bloody drive-by shooting at 9:50 p.m. last night.
The shocking shooting followed an earlier drive-by murder in a crime-ridden area of Rexdale just before 8:30 p.m. that claimed the life of a man and sent another to hospital with a gunshot to the leg.
No one was injured in a third shooting after midnight at Jane St. and Stanley Rd., where four rounds were fired, including two slugs that hit a convenience store.
A veteran officer said he was disgusted by the violence, which he said should “wake up” people to the problem
The whiners in TO are whining, as usual: Let ’em sweat in the dark????? Liberal whiners, of course. Turn up the coolers; that will turn up the heat on the Liberals.
Ontario on brink of blackout
PONTYPOOL, Ont. (CP) – People in Ontario will have to curb their consumption of electricity for at least two more summers before new generating capacity finally comes on line, Premier Dalton McGuinty warned Wednesday>>>>>>>
Separate from the Liberal whiners?
“”Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US? “”
I just want to own 100% of my own property…in Canada I can’t do this…..so I have a 100% stake in a free Alberta.
Candace:
“Canada has shown repeatedly that Alberta isn’t even considered as contemptible as a “country cousin.”
Do not conflate partisan politics with patriotism. You are only playing into the hands of the Liberals and their ilk. Most folks I know (including myself!) definitely DO NOT have any contempt for Alberta. If anything, we are often rather envious of you. I think it’s fantastic your province is doing so well.
“I DO, however, have issue with repeatedly (I believe 94 out of 100 years) handing over cash yet being called a whiner, a knuckledragger, a redneck (and not the Merle Haggerdy kind), etc.”
Er, actually, check your history.
I think you’ll find that until the oil boom set off by Leduc Number One in 1947, Alberta’s economy was essentially agricultural and no great blockbuster.
The economic centre of Canada was still very much in Ontario and Quebec. In fact, Montreal rather than Toronto was the financial centre of the country.
So Alberta might well have been on the receiving end of Federal largesse in those days.
There is no doubt that a number of factors – not least that oil boom and Quebec separatism – have been pushing the economic centre of Canada steadily westward.
My guess is that it’s now somewhere around Waterloo, Ontario but still moving west at a rapid rate of knots (ha ha!). My personal sense is, given the way Alberta and Ontario are going, it will eventually lodge itself at some mythical spot near Flin Flon (ha ha!).
So in fact, the cash handovers to Ottawa from Alberta seem to have really started in earnest some time AFTER 1947.
We’re seeing much the same thing happen now out in Newfoundland where federal money was always welcome but now, faced with a flow of oil revenue, the province doesn’t want to pay anything back into the national pot.
“Either you live outside of AB or you’re delusional.”
All right then, either you live inside Alberta or you’re delusional. It works both ways.
John Crittenden:
“If Quebec separates how will they replace the money Ottawa gives them each year? If Alberta separates they will simply keep the billions they give Ottawa each year.”
In both cases, the separatist logic is faulty. It presumes a Canadian economy without a Canada. Both Alberta and Quebec run the very real risk of ruining their own economies by precipitating the collapse of Canada’s.
“Speaking as a former and future Albertan, why should Albertans go down with the sinking ship? Sometimes it’s just a good idea to get off. As soon as enough Albertans come to their senses, and when a politician with guts steps up and tells it like it is, we’re gone.”
The thing is, if you do “get off,” Canada WILL probably sink. And who the hell knows the consequences of that action: you don’t, I don’t. Prepared to risk your pension on it?
SDC:
“50 equal partners in the US?”
Are you so credulous as to believe that Idaho is an equal partner with Texas in the US?
JJM
“The thing is, if you do “get off,” Canada WILL probably sink. And who the hell knows the consequences of that action: you don’t, I don’t. Prepared to risk your pension on it?”
You struck the nail on the head there – but out here we are willing to take that risk – why – because no one in Ontario is listening. The country is broken and there is no political will to fix it. As long as that situation remains – and based on the current state of affairs this situation is only going to get worse – we’re done.
Please, please save me a spot. Somewhere nice, in the foothills preferably. Do I need to sign something?
SDC:
“50 equal partners in the US?”
Are you so credulous as to believe that Idaho is an equal partner with Texas in the US?
Politically, at least; the political system in Canada has never been anything but a tyranny of the majority, and the politicians use that to full advantage. Sure, they’ll make noises occasionally about “alleviating alienation”, but when it comes down to walking the walk, it’s “back of the bus, redneck, Ontario and Quebec will decide what’s best for you, and you’ll like it”. The US recognized the danger in this from the outset, and incorporated both rep by pop and an equal number of senators in each state to offset this. The current situation in Canada is analogous to having California and New York ruling the US, with no-one else being able to even have any input on decisions that affect them.
There are models for separating a country without significant disruption to both parties in the split. Czechoslovakia split up into Slovakia and the Czech Republic with barely a problem. It will only be a economic disaster if either Canada or Alberta is unreasonable in the negotiations. Alberta, like Quebec has done, would require a fund to stabilize currencies in such an event. As for the talk of statehood, there has been no interest in this matter from the United States since they do not want to induce instability in Canada. Alberta would need to be willing to go it alone for several decades at least.
I a bit on the fence but wouldn’t vote for separation since, as some have indicated, perhaps the population dynamics within Canada will help out the Western cause in a few decades. After all, some have predicted the oil sands to be about 10X their current size by 2040. Alberta WILL be a factor within Canada whether Ottawa wants it or not.
The new Queens rep wasn’t born in Canada, rather she was born in that great British colony of Haiti. Wait a second.
With all the petro dollars Alberta has and will be getting, it only makes good economic sense to separate. But before separating, wouldn’t it be fun to see Alberta economically bring the bastards to their knees and crush them under heel first?
“The current situation in Canada is analogous to having California and New York ruling the US, with no-one else being able to even have any input on decisions that affect them.”
Your analogy doesn’t hold any water.
California and New York are the first and third biggest states respectively by population. But together they only account for 19% of the US population. Even if you add in the second biggest state by population (Texas), you still only end up with 26% of the whole American population.
Those demographics are the reason New York and California couldn’t stop George Bush if they tried (and apparently they did try).
In Canada, Ontario and Quebec represent 62% of the Canadian population so it’s only logical they would have considerable electoral power. But there’s a demographic dynamic at play here: Ontario’s population continues to grow but Quebec’s is flattening out at just over seven million.
Meanwhile, the West as a block (BC-Alberta-Saskatchewan-Manitoba) has 29% of the Canadian population and (thanks to Alberta but no thanks to the dopey policies in the other three provinces) that figure continues to grow.*
The time is fast approaching when Quebec will no longer be a factor (and don’t the Quebec separatists damn well know it!) in Federal elections.
It’ll all be down to Ontario and the West.
Canada’s provinces would actually seem to have MORE constitutional powers than the average state. The Civil War sorted out the question of federal powers versus state powers pretty definitively for the US. I go back to the example of PEI, which has 0.45% of Canada’s population but pretty well all the constitutional powers of – Alberta! And I seem to recall that Manitoba was able to sink the Meech Lake Accord quite handily…
* A hypothetical “State of Alberta” would represent LESS than 1% of the US population.
“Getting grizzly about being a net contributor is an old gripe in every country. In the US, there are certainly have and have-not states. England foots the bill for Scotland and Wales. In Italy, there’s a clear divide between the north and south.”
And in how many of those countries are the net contributors denied any real say in how the country is run? That’s the real issue here.
I don’t know about you guys, but it makes me very sad that a good chuck of the population feels as if they are better off without Canada.
Librano$$$$$ suck!
~B
And are you credulous enough to believe that the West will be granted the powers that are due to it by the federal government? On a strictly rep by pop basis, Quebec is already over-represented by approximately 6 MPS, with the same situation present in the Maritime provinces (eg. why does PEI have 2 MPS, when they should have only 1 under a rep by pop system?) The benevolent dictators who run this country won’t change the system as long as it’s to their benefit to have it the way it is; if it was rep by pop now, Martin’s minority would have fallen a long time ago.
I live in Alberta. There is no way that close to half of the people I know are in favour of separation. In fact, the only peple I hear talking separtion are 3 or 4 people who are staunch Conservatives who are frustrated with the federal system. They felt screwed by Trudeau, Clark, Mulroney and Chretien and feel that Ralph Klein is the greatest leader ever. But when asked they realize that the �Republic of Alberta� would be costly (ie set up a foreign affairs office, customs, armed forces etc) and ineffectual within North America.
This poll is pure crap.
Actually, SDC, you’re mistaken: PEI has 4 MPs. All Liberal, of course. Take away those three undeserved seats and the government would’ve fallen in May.
Mixing and matching rep-by-pop with rep-by-region in the same government house is stupid, stupid, stupid. Why should 75,000 Islanders get twice the say in the Commons as 200,000 Albertans?
I’M not sure where JJM gets his #’s. I’m sure he is a passionate Canadian. P.E.I with about 110K pop. is guaranteed 4 house seats. Que. with a declining pop.(about 7 million) is guaranteed 75 seats, as well as 3SSC judges and more Senators than 7 million Westerners. Alberta has 30 seats, Man. & Sask 14 each. As to equal political weight with Ontario is to laugh! Ont. has 108 seats with a growing pop. Alberta will never catch up. Finally as a former resident of Man. please get the facts of Meech right. with a minority Gov’t. Premier Filmon appointed an all party group to ask Manitobans what they thought of Meech – they covered every turkey trail and whistle stop in the Prov. In addition it was agreed that only a unanimous vote in the leg. would provide agreement. Harper, a native N.D.P member refused unanimous consent waving his eagle feather.
What was the name of the “Queen” when the “Alberta Act” and the “Saskatchewan Act” were drafted in 1905?
Section 9 of Canada’s Constitution Act, 1867 states: “The Executive Government and Authority of and over Canada is hereby declared to continue and be vested in the Queen”.
How does “Rupert’s Land and the North-western Territory” sound?
aaa and JJM;
This poll was a wake up call for people like you! If you live in the west you should be considering looking for a ‘posting’ in the east!! Western Independance is a vision for people who want to live in a country that speaks for them and their values.
Western values are scorned in eastern Canada. Western people are only ‘invited out’ if they are paying the bill. They are sneered at by the ‘sophisticated parasites’ ordering the best wine.
There are a few people in the west who bought into the ‘seedy, Bolshevick poor people first ‘ concept of the late Tom Douglas – esp. in Sask – but the ‘pickings’ are getting pretty thin in that province as most of their productive young people have moved to Alta. Sask. has a lame duck premier that even the welfarocrates have difficulty respecting. The province is at the brink of developing the oil sands so the elitist welfarocrates can eat cake! The end of the NDP gulag in that province is written on these oil sands. Develop them – the NDP losses power- leave the status quo – the welfarocrates run out of free enterprisers to fleece. If Alta declared Independance all the productive areas and people would leave the gulag – same goes for B.C. The Republic of Alberta would end up being much bigger and much more Conservative than it is in this poll. There are a lot of transplanted Liberanos living in the cities – these people would return to their ‘roots’ if Alberta became an independant nation. Conservative people would replace them in a heartbeat.
The Independant states of Estonia, Lituania, Latvia and Finland are viable countries and they were once ‘colonies’ of the Soviet Union. Self Determination is the right of every free nation. Since Canada is not a country that respects the values of the Western end of the nation then the nation of Canada will better reflect it’s people without the anti communist mind-set of the west. As for pensions, health care etc. – do you people really believe that myth? Yes, well you need to get your own act together ‘down east’ so your dps from the west can find what they won’t have in an Independant Alta -cradle to grave welfare and grannies to change their diapers.
It’s funny how only Liberals can be engaged in a conflict of interest or be held responsible for misrepresentation, something that the Western Standard is doing with this poll.
They hired Faron Ellis, chief pollster for JMCK Communications, which is a company owned by the founding managers of the Western Standard itself.
Have a read:
http://www.jmck.ca/about/team.cfm
http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=help
If PMPM had a polling company and cited results from this as evidence of some subject, I’m sure most conservatives would be keen enough to point this out.
The methodology of the poll is quite flawed because it does not cite the number of respondents who declined to comment. This means the “37%, plus or minus 2.6%” statement means nothing.
Don’t leave your brains at the door just because you want to uphold a politically biased and methodologically flawed poll. If anything, this study will do more damage to future polls on the subject of Western Alienation, if and when they are ever carried out by EKOS or Ipsos-Reid.
I live in Ontario. Is it too late to move to Alberta? Whether it’s the summer smog around here or what, I don’t know, but the level of basic common sense around here has NOSE-DIVED in the last 3 or 4 years …
JJM, if I am politically naive, it’s about Canada, not America.
You keep referring to one state being “unequal” to another. This is simply a foreign concept in the minds of most Americans. I do not think Texas is more “important” than Vermont. The whole idea is a strange one to the US.
One does occasionally run into some star-struck adolescent who would like to blow their hick town and go to New York City, or something… the Broadway shows! the restaurants! the museums! or maybe Hollywood! where every man can go to bed with Pamela Anderson! (well, Pamela is Canadian, but you will have to be an American rock star to go to bed with her.)
Seriously though, we just don’t think in terms of one state being unequal to another. In fact a couple of years ago Senator Jim Jeffords from Vermont jumped out of the Republican Party and joined the Democrats. (Jumping Jim, as we called him.) This caused the entire voting power of the Senate to shift simply because a Vermont senator has a co-equal vote with any other senator. In the Jeffords instance, for example, Vermont had more power than Texas because of the move. Tom Daschle (may he live in infamy) was briefly Majority Leader of the Senate, then became Minority Leader despite the fact he is from South Dakota, a very low population state.
There may be some good reason that Alberta shouldn’t become a state (I can’t think of any), but inequality based on population simply isn’t one of them.
Again
Alberta is not interested in becoming a state. we can go alone!!!
AAA said;
I live in Alberta. There is no way that close to half of the people I know are in favour of separation. In fact, the only people I hear talking separtion are 3 or 4 people who are staunch Conservatives who are frustrated with the federal system. They felt screwed by Trudeau, Clark, Mulroney and Chretien and feel that Ralph Klein is the greatest leader ever. But when asked they realize that the �Republic of Alberta� would be costly (ie set up a foreign affairs office, customs, armed forces etc) and ineffectual within North America.
This poll is pure crap.* aaa
===================================
Talking informally with people around you is far more likely to reveal the truth than any *professorial Poll*.
The good fortunes of Albertans comes from a windfall of Nature.
Albertans did not manufacture the oil in the ground. Albertans were able to develope and profit by this rich natural windfall because Canada provided the safe living conditions to do so.
Our stable way of living was bought with the lives of Canadians who fought for it from all parts of Canada, not just Alberta.
Albertans are enjoying the world’s richest lifestyle of any country in the world.
If Albertans bring the rest of Canada to it’s knees by not sharing windfall oil profits, then Alberta expects no future.
Shared oil revenues contribute to a healthy Canada, ready to come to Alberta’s defense and ready to buy Albert’s products.
Oil and gas are a rich resource, but once installed they employ few workers. A rich province with high unemployment is a recipe for disaster.
There is no chance that I would call someone names who fails to agree here. I will only ask that we look carefully at the overall picture please.
Borders within Canada will only cripple our ability to defend a take-over by China from within, for example.
OK, this may seem a surprise, but I listened to a brilliant speaker who was Chinese. He spoke english very effectively and it made me uneasy.
He was addressing various company board members and Canadian government industry department heads.
He strongly suggested mega joint ventures, and I thought, yeah, where Canadian expertise and industrial secrets would be provided for free.
Just in case you are not up to date. Canada has a goldmine of technological, chemical, medical and industrial, not to mention software secrets and processes that other countries could profit by.
This is no time to be fighting amongst ourselves when September is fast approaching and we have some heavy house-cleaning to do.
We have been sidetracked with Parrish, Hans Island, SSM bill-38 and other non-events. Time to ask ourselves, why?
73s TG
Well aaa lives under a rock, so what do you expect. I can say that everyone I talk to wants out, oh and you want more numbers:
http://www.am770chqr.com/station/corus_qod_poll.cfm?PollID=9873
Why can’t you nay sayers just admit that there’s an issue?… or is it a deeply embedded liberal trait that won’t allow you to accept the truth.
What is remarkable is just how tone-deaf Canadians are to all the problems right under our own noses. We live in perpetual denial. It’s practically a national passtime. Right after Bush was re-elected, the CBC ran one brain-dead story after another about how “divided” the US is. With childlike glee they told us how hundreds of thousands of Americans were getting ready to pack their bags and move to Canada – “Oh look how wonderful we are! Everyone wants to be like us! They love us!”, and on, and on …
Well, those Americans never came. California is still very much a part of the US, and so too the rest of the “blue” states.
Meanwhile, Quebec and Western Canada is heading towards separation quite nicely. Whoo hoo! But hey, forget all that and let’s talk about the supposedly “divided” Americans instead. Why wake the fuck up, when we can stroke our egos instead? Right?
I have never posted here before, but decided to add my weight to the chorus crying for a long overdue divorce from this troublesome overspending and abusive partner. I have always favored leaving this oligarchic, neo-feudalist and socialist one party state. Politically it is on the level of the Phillipines or Thailand. I was going to throw in Mexico, but Mexico is now actually utilitarian i.e. governed in the interests of the ruled, not the rulers. Ontario and its fiefdom is governed in the interests of the rulers. It is surprising that Ontarians themselves do not have a problem with this, but from their voting record they clearly do not. It could even be jested that the paying of taxes is the national pastime. As there is no credible cause for the heavy expense of this nation state, it is not at war, it is not a ministate endangered by ongoing and severe natural disasters. The only reason for it is the excess power given to absolutist and kleptomaniac gang of feudalist cronies by the obslolete constitutional arrangment of Ottawa. That arrangement provides Ontario with its power and livelihood. They thus have no motivation to ever change it. Humans will only change when the cost of not changing has grown greater than the cost of changing. I frankly couldn’t care less what Ontario thinks or does. I have no intention of ever even visiting the place, never mind living there or sending all my income there. I see no need for a partnership with Ontario or its satellites. Politics works best on the smallest possible scale, economics works best on the largest possible scale. It is almost always better to be a self Governing durisdiction trading as freely as possible with the rest of the world. I have always been in favor of any alternative option to the current situation. I would favor joining the US OR total independence. I have always expected that the latter is the more likely to actually happen. I am a little more optimistic about this life after seeing this poll but it still seems a little too good to actually happen. One thing I can say for certain, I would only consider living in Canada, read Alberta or BC, if it DOES separate. But much more probably, I expect to be moving out at the earliest possible opportunity. My personal decisions are my personal decisions, they will not be made by a distant and arbritrary power.
Narrmer – well said…. your definitely not alone…
Aaron,
I’ve worked for polling companies, and they don’t count or keep track of those who don’t wish to participate in the study. If, for example, you go to the Compas website you’ll see that in their studies, they don’t mention those who don’t participate.
As for your allegations about the connections between WS managers and JMCK polling — your link to the WS is blank. Given your error in the above point, one can only assume that you are also in error with respect to this claim as well.
Finally, given that every major polling company in Canada has close ties to the Liberals, and often receives specific phone lists from the Party when conducting their polls (I’ve seen them!), it seems there is little choice out there for conducting a controversial poll that could disagree with the Librano line.
The WS polling results are roughly the same as the ratio of pro-anti separation calls to _Saskatchewan_ talk radio.
I can’t believe that the same Liberals who went sleep-walking into the last Quebec referendum are dismissing the growing support for western separatism. These are the same people who came within a percentage point of losing Quebec.
It’s deja vu, all over again – except that the West has the resources to actually follow through on the threat.
As a history fan, I’ve occasionally pondered (in a purely “thinking outside the box” context) what Canada’s society and economy would be like if some provinces chose to change their status within Confederation.
Canada’s political Achilles’ Heel is the lack of an active, elected second legislative body (equivalent to the U.S. Senate). In the U.S., each of the 50 states receives exactly the same number of Senators, who are elected to six-year terms of office. A similar arrangement for Canada could help offset the heavy-handed abuse of power by Ontario-centric, Quebec-appeasing politicians.
It is unclear whether Canada’s political establishment will actually address the democratic deficit in the foreseeable future. “Trust me” and “beware of the angry right-wing maniacs” seem to be the primary principles of the Martin government.
As for Alberta’s future, they are the hardest-working people in the Dominion, yet it seems they are treated by the Ontario-centric political establishment with disdain and disrespect. It is oddly reminiscent of the occasional blue-blood old-school New Yorker or New Englander who looks down their nose at people from Mississippi.
It is up to the citizens of Alberta to determine their future status with Ottawa and Confederation.
I can’t believe that the same Liberals who went sleep-walking into the last Quebec referendum are dismissing the growing support for western separatism.
It’s because Liberals think if they don’t talk about a problem, it doesn’t exist. Who will blow the whistle? It certainly won’t be the Liberal ra-ra band at the CBC. To many, separation is the only way out of this ideological prison. They may be right.
Well, this has been fascinating, Kate.
I must say I’m amazed at the lack of perspective a lot of people seem to have. I mean, I’m no fan of the Libs but some of the postings here would make you believe that we are all starving serfs in a totalitarian dictatorship.
Come off it.
It’s one thing to have a gripe about the sleazy politics of the central government, it’s another to make out as if Albertans are peons crushed under foot by a Stalinesque tyrant in Ottawa.
Are mass arrests of Albertans taking place?
Are women and children in Red Deer starving because a federal pogrom?
Are secret police killing hundreds every day in Edmonton?
I’ll buy resentment at Ontario and Quebec, that’s understandable. But it’s pretty rich for someone in a province as prosperous as Alberta to complain me that they are poor and downtrodden.
Some remarks bordered on rants; I was quite surprised “Narmer” and “jema54” didn’t type their outlandish offerings in ALL CAPS.
Some remarks seemed outright racist in nature – as if somehow Albertans were superior people to those mugs in the rest of Canada (the idea that Albertans “work harder” than the rest of us, for instance).
And I noticed some people weren’t actually paying attention to what I wrote.
Separation is a dodgy, risky business. There is no guarantee of success and the consequences are never as sure as people would like to believe. You can’t control all the loose ends and outcomes and you don’t know where they’ll take you. Alberta is knitted into the Canadian economy; you cannot extract simply yourself from that economy and expect all will be sweetness and light. If that economy collapses, yours takes a drubbing too.
I love the US. I believe that we are very fortunate as a country to have them as a neighbour (beats the hell out having of China or Russia next to us!). But I’m not convinced the American constitutional framework is any better than our own; it too is a work in progress. The grass isn’t necessarily greener on the other side. And Albertans shouldn’t fool themselves that Americans would be happy to see Canada implode. The LAST thing I would want as President is to have to deal with a big mess right on my doorstep.
I’ve lived in the West (in Alberta no less!), in Ontario, in Quebec and “down east.” Some of the posters here would appear to have never lived or rarely visited anywhere else in the country. Some actually ranted about never setting foot in Ontario. Interestingly, I’ve heard “pure laine” Qu�b�cois say that about “le Canada anglais.” I thought they were small-minded, parochial bigots – and I feel the same about anyone else in Canada who says such a thing. And just to reassure you, I believe there are more than a few Torontonians who seem to think the world drops off into space just north of the 401.
Oh, and Mike W:
The facts of Meech are that a single native Canadian in Manitoba was able to deep-six the machinations of an “evil clique of Ontario-Quebec political schemers.”
THAT hardly lends much support to the notion that Westerners have no voice in the country.
It is one thing to carry out a rational conversation in a blog such as this. Just this last week, I joined a discussion of ‘what would Canada do if Alberta separated’ on a Liberal blog. Several people responded that they would dance, party, or otherwise celebrate. When I challenged one guy on his intolerant stance, he stated ‘Nope. I would dance only if Alberta decided to separate. We need Quebec’s progressive voters and MPs. We could do without Alberta’s reactionary troglodytes.’ Canada is polarizing…I’m just not convinced it’s a terminal situation yet.
JJM:
So, do we, westerners, need:
“Are mass arrests of Albertans taking place?
Are women and children in Red Deer starving because a federal pogrom?
Are secret police killing hundreds every day in Edmonton?”
Before we are ‘entitled’ to our own destiny?
Cheers,
lance
Lance:
When I read about threats of separation, it always sounds too much like spoiled kids who want to take their toys and run away.
I just have to believe there is more to the character of Albertans than hissy-fits and petulance.
Brian C:
Truth is, Canada has always been “polarizing.” It’s called “regionalism” and it’s by no means unique to our dear Dominion. It’s an age-old human disease in which everyone in the country but ourselves is a no-good bum.
I’ve no doubt people in northern Luxemburg think the folks in the south are a bunch of lay-abouts.
“Nope. I would dance only if Alberta decided to separate. We need Quebec’s progressive voters and MPs. We could do without Alberta’s reactionary troglodytes”
Yes, I’ve run into a few clowns like this in my time. Anyone who would say or think something like this is no better than the “Albertan separatists” they choose to excoriate.
JJM,
Despite your sanctimonious attitude, let me try to respond to some of your narrow views.
1. The current form of Canadian government — politicians, officals, and the bureaucracy — is incredibly corrupt, and at this point is almost impossible to alter without a massive restructuring — a restructuring that simply cannot happen in its current state no matter which party comes into power.
2. It’s a red herring to be comparing the Canadian situation to a Stalinesque or Hitlerian totalitarian regime. There are more subtle forms of oppression and exclusion, and one could argue that is indeed what is happening to the west and Alberta today.
3. Albertans and westerners are left out of the federal power structure — if one were to do a breakdown of the civil service in Ottawa, what percentage would be from the west or Alberta? Given the new prerequisite that one can only be employed at a higher level if one is already fully bilingual, the numbers of westerners is the lowest it’s ever been. Not to mention that civil service jobs site that only hires people from specific postal codes.
4. Alberta’s complaints about the system are not purely about economics, though that plays a role in the discontent. You’re probably one of those people who sniffs in derision when Albertans or westerners say that they have a unique social and cultural perspective. We do, and it seems to conflict with what Ontario and Quebec believe. And, even though Canada often pats itself on the back for being inclusive and compromising, when it comes to certain Albertan or western social and cultural values there is no compromise.
5. People in Alberta and the west KNOW that separation is a risky enterprise, but if you have lived in the west, then you know that Albertans and westerners are not risk averse. It becomes a matter of time for people in calculating when the potential advantages of separation outweighs the potential disadvantages of the risk of leaving. The threshold is near.
Frankly, I hope the ROC (and Ottawa in particular) continue to keep their heads in the sand and demonize Alberta and the west again in the next election, as seems likely. There is little hope of changing the system for the better, the corruption is too entrenched. Thus, the only way to implement a better system is to start again — the rest of the country is unwilling, so Alberta must do it alone. Perhaps once Alberta shows how it can be done, the ROC will follow and it can rejoin Canada at a later date.
Vive la beau risque!
So it’s “sanctimonious” to want to keep the country in one piece, eh?
Interesting.
By the way, “risque” is masculine, mon ami, so it has to be “le risque.”