According to the newly released “sunshine list”, the number of public sector employees in Ontario in 2014 who earned over $100,000 a year increased by 13,600 over the previous year, up to a staggering 111,438 workers.
That’s enough people and money to form a small city-state — albeit, they’d have no source of revenue.
Don’t forget: $100,000 ain’t what it used to be. Some of these folk could have hit the magic number just because of inflation increases.
That being said, a review of those who have hit the magic six digit income is probably in order. However, rather than focus on the peons who have made the list (except for the more egregious examples and – I cite from memory – a police officer who topped $200,000, I think it would be more constructive to take a hard look at the top of the list: check out the increase in senior bureaucratic types who are in this list and whose jobs could – quite possibly – be eliminated without any consequences in the delivery of services to the peons. Actually, I suspect eliminating a lot of said jobs would result in an increase in funds for real services.
“…enough people and money to form a small city-state — albeit, they’d have no source of revenue.”
No source of revenue? But they’d all pay income tax. (That’s what my siblings who work in publicly-funded jobs tell me when they explain why they vote for the party that wants to create more government jobs.)
And it just shows the “intellect” of those people. The simple fact is this….the private sector pays EVERY PENNY OF TAXES…..every single penny. The taxes that those in the public sector “pay” comes entirely from the private sector. After all, when you pay your taxes, you aren’t just paying for the NET pay of the public sector employees, but also every penny of their net, their income taxes, their CPP (and the “employer” portion), their EI (and the “employer” portion) and their benefits and their pension. THOSE are the facts.
Public sector unions and liberal governments in an alliance to shaft the taxpayer and provide cushy jobs for “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” crowd.
It is not just Ontario.
Public “employees” paying their taxes is akin to looking for perpetual motion (where that pesky problem of friction keeps getting in the way).
I think I just found a way to trim 11.4 billion dollars from Ontario’s budget.
Intellect. Yes, those siblings of mine are university educated with multiple degrees each. The two of us who work in the private sector don’t have university degrees.
Math is hard, but I’m going to give it a try.
111,438 workers X $100G = $11,143,800,000 dollars(minimum).
That just doesn’t seem right, my ciphering must be wrong,though I’m pretty sure I got all my naughts in the right place.
Eleven billion to pay the top, and how much more for the bottom ?
Seems to fit here
“An Entrepreneur’s Experience”5zfz3c
https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/an-entrepreneurs-experience/
Alberta’s liberal gun grabbing government also raised tax’s on it’s working class.
Fire them all!
Heh. Probably the same type who say that healthcare is “free”.
It always helps to look at the actual data rather than speculation.
http://www.ontario.ca/government/public-sector-salary-disclosure
By far the largest category reported are Municipalities with about 25% of the total number.
This is followed by Universities, Ministries, Hydro One and OPG, School Boards, and Hospitals, each with about 12% of the total number of employees.
The final group of organizations are Legislative Assembly, Judiciary, assorted Crown Agencies, Community Colleges, and Other with about 3% each.
When you sift through for the truly big earners ($500K+) it’s a rounding error, much less than 1000 of the total 114K public servants.
Joey and Tooner above are wrong about revenues and taxes. As noted from the list, governments indeed produce economic benefits: education, health services, municipal services, electricity generation, transmission and distribution just to name the big ones. The question is not whether government is providing no value. The question is whether or not we are over-paying for them.
cgh >
“…governments indeed produce economic benefits: education, health services, municipal services, electricity generation, transmission and distribution just to name the big ones.”
Most of which can be provided by the private sector more efficiently and less monopolized.
I disagree that even $120,000 in city of Toronto is basically nothing just bring you in borderline of midclass. Unless you have spouse get the same salary then you become full time mid class family in Toronto. It depends on which part of city you are leaving. $10,000 at least $2000 will cut for tax and pension. Then lease new year $500 per month. Then pay borderline home mortgage not expensive $3000 per month 3 to 4 bedroom. Then pay home insurance and car insurance and life insurance it will take $600 bribe!(you know what I mean) money pay to insurance company, pay cell phone tv & internet main home line phone & electtricty and gas will take $1400 ,& $500 cleaning home and $1500 food shoping cloth home stuff then $500 for saving ,gyme,Guest party or go travel once a year. My first job I got $30,000 per month with $5500 for mortgage $1200 lease volvo xc90 &honda car still I was short in my cost. It depends earning to cost of your living. Toronto isnot city of poor anymore unless used subsidy
I’m on that list. I work for OPG repairing a nuclear power plant. I am prepared to admit (believe me, I see it every day) that OPG can be horribly managed at times I don’t think I am over paid. As evidence, I produce the fact that people in the exact same trade as me who work at privately operated Bruce Power make more money than I do. People who work in the same trade (or similar) in oil and gas make as much money as me. If OPG was privatized tomorrow, I would still be employed and still making the same money.
OK >
So what did you pay for all those things in Afghanistan?
Let’s not forget that many of the goods and services you cite are wanted by no one but the bureaucrat producing them. Let’s not ignore the vast anti-prosperity effects of government regulation, one of those services you refer to. It is wrong to say the government simply produces goods and services at a higher cost than private industry. It’s much worse than that.
I’ll say it again. Let’s say you have $2 million burning a hole in your pocket and want to buy an Ontario business with $1 million annual revenue, 45% in earnings before taxes and 20% net profit. Knowing the combined federal and provincial tax rate is about 33% you calculate the time just to return your capital at over 10 years. Do you invest or just leave your money in the bank earning 1.45% interest?
I’ve got a great idea to reduce payroll…. why doesn’t OPG reduce OT to some arbitrary number?…say 400hrs per employee/year. Then, since they don’t have the people to do the work, they can either skip the maintenance or take longer to bring their units back online, forgoing a million dollars a day in lost revenue.
Since debt repayment is no longer a function in determining affordability any suggestion that ‘I am worth my wages’ is irrelevant. There were many who lost their jobs in the ‘Great Depression’ even though they were worth their wages. At some point this global house of cards will fall apart. The question will then be how does a society re-establish confidence that debt will be repaid. Without that confidence or guarantee the economy will not recover. The spiral down could last for many, many years.
When financial assets no longer have worth what does? I suggest what will have enhanced value are skills that have a direct productive value. Skills that can sustain life. On that basis there are millions of jobs that will fall by the side no matter if those people think their wage is fair or not.
Wah-wah-wah. Go cry to your private-sector bosses, who are all probably making $300K + bonuses while insisting that the company can’t afford to toss a cost-of-living bump your way.
I always remember my uncle RIP who worked as an instructor at Tech School. He always told us kids to secure a job where your wage was paid by government. You will never face lay-off and a comfortable retirement is ensured. Did he continually beat the drum for socialism? You bet he did. He called it ‘pay-back’ for the good life he enjoyed.
That is why there is a growing underground economy …. with al the new immigrants in Ontario that will mushroom … many of them come from countries where tax collection is a joke and there are few services … that is why many come here … for all the free services that will disappear because few people are willing continue feeding the donkey ….. look a Greece …. they over taxed to over pay their mammoth civil service and other benefits … now they are not much better off than Haiti.
Regarding an earlier comment … I am always amazed at how government employees actually think that the taxes that they must pay form their ‘taxpayer’ extorted pay checks, somehow contributes to the wealth of the nation.’Government is the snake that eats it’s own tail and doesn’t realized it’.
Coleman >
“Go cry to your private-sector bosses, who are all probably making $300K + bonuses”
Why would anyone do that, they earned it. So can anyone else with the intelligence and fortitude to either work their way up or start their own business. Beats sitting on the make work government welfare jobs paid for by the same better individuals you so mock.
It’s weird how societies Socialist misfits, bemoan the productive private sector members of our society making a 6 figure salary but they have no issue at all with their brainless celebrety icons like Lindsey Lohan or 50 cent making multiple millions and blowing it on crack.
Mental disorder indeed.
You can not expect excuse of old fox mistake to led big debt today to ask new generation who never involved work free and low wage to pay father and grandfather big old fert debt too. What you can do to increase service nicer home lower price lower food or electricity cost. While society are linked like problem llke cancer can fast spread to all of us private and /or public . People work for hope of better life style every year. Problem is not salary to people but problem is budge what we have and how spend money wisleyy give you plus or minue revenue. Such as look at money burning in ME. Saudi arabai bombing in 3 days knock down shia rebel all billion cost of war equipments. On other hand saudi(anti sick shia used all sunni counttry to save itself trillion money investment) allow 3 years sunni rebbel named isis to took city of iraq, syria yemn killing shia civilan for no reason by spend all money to wepoen not their own people right salary. Canada US faced debt suffered people burn money in miltray cost.
My sister works for Rev Canada, and has said to me in past discussions of this issue, “look, I pay taxes too, if you want, I can show you my pay stub and you’ll see just how much I pay…”
That’s verbatim, from the last year in which we actually had conversations, 1995 ish
I’d pointed out that the left side of her pay stub (gross income) was from “us” and the portion she paid back was already from “us” … sigh. Arguing with these folks may seem sporting from time to time, but it’s like pushing a rope, I’m not getting anywhere.
My first job was employee of Iranian national gas company I was 19. Because stupid gov of Iran first closed all university as revolution in Iran. I was really bored I decided to work without need any money my family were rich but not too rich list. After 3 month I had private driver one of high end salary called me creative gig used my gifted brain worked among top people engineers but my job as kid must run to organized their job but I had fixed salary. In Canada my first job also end up very high end job variable I noticed different if you work for government fixed job is much easier to work in private sector variable sometimes I feel my brain blow up of problem must daily solve it. People not see pain of private company less enjoy their money but work their as off to earn pay bills over bills.
Ontario is so poor that Alberta is forced to pay equalization payments to them while we are faced with increasing taxes and deficits. Ontario should collect sufficient funds from that group of 111,438 elitists to relieve Albertans from that cost.
I live in Ontario, will not leave for family reasons ( really wish we could) All I can say is long live the underground economy and I do all I can to keep it going.
“Governments indeed produce economic benefits” – That is a Keynesian fallacy long time discredited by Austrian economics.
Any nation needs a certain number of government employees in order to function – build/maintain roads, deliver the mail, defend the country, police the cities and run the courts and penal institutions – but that’s about all. Mission creep for government has been like a metastasizing cancer ever since Keynesian collectivist economics pervaded all parties of government and all administrative feeder systems. Any money spent outside of the core function of government is non value added redistribution of private wealth to the public sector or patronage networks. Outside core functions which are not the realm of the private sector, (legislative, defense, justice, commonwealth capital projects) government IS a non-value added redundancy.
The question is not whether government is providing no value. The question is whether or not we are over-paying for them
Government provides no value outside its core function. The real question is what to make of government expansion and largesse outside its function. It is an established fact the government cannot/ compete with the private sector for efficiency and quality of output. These yearly reminders of government expansion (like the sunshine list) should make us question if these costs are superfluous or just crass patronage loop backs.
Ontario is a living testament to public sector creep spawned by Keynisnism taken to its natural conclusion – it is at a stage now where unionized public servants interfere in the election cycle to the point they decide which governing faction takes power – the priority of that government is to meet Public sector union demands – we are witnessing an orgy of Public sector union feasting on public funds – they are exempt from economic cycles which effect private sector labor – it’s all about entitled lush sinecure and insulation from market/economic forces – and it shows. Ontario will soon be an unsavable economic basket case with non-value added public sector liabilities out weighing private sector productivity.
ok >
“…….I noticed different if you work for government ………… blow up of problem must daily solve it.”
Are you threatening to blow someone up again ok?
No actually, YOU are wrong about taxes. None of the government “services” you talk about would even exist without the economic input of the private sector. None of it. And you seem to miss the point that as the public sector moves into the realm of the private sector and crowds it out, the private sector has to work harder to keep the public sector satiated. And if you believe otherwise, then why when you pay your taxes are you not paying only the net salary of the public sector?
This mental picture of the public and private sector being happily balanced on a seesaw is nonsense. The REAL picture is that of the private sector walking along with the public sector on its back.
Except unless you own shares in the private sector business, how much the CEO is paid is none of your business because you haven’t put your own money at risk in the business. Taxes, on the other end, are FORCED out of you. You must “work” for the government.
Two issues here — the first is the widely held belief amongst leftists that, all evidence to the contrary, the law of diminishing returns cannot possibly apply to government. They love to ask, as it comes to how much wealth an individual should be “allowed” to have, “How much is enough?” I like to turn it around and reply, “You know, that is a valid question, ‘How much government intervention in our lives IS enough?'” I’ve never got an answer.
The second issue lies in the size of the government sector and its involvement in the political process. There was a time when political parties such as the Libranos and especially the NDP were the parties for government. With the last Ontario provincial election I’d say that the political tipping point has passed such that now, certainly in Ontario, the Liberal party of Ontario is no longer the political party FOR government; it is the political party OF government. As with any parasitic arrangement the parasite has to be careful not to kill its host if it is to survive in the long run The continued expansion of the Ontario government sector and budget would indicate that the parasites simply lack the insight necessary in order to make the arrangement sustainable.
One of problem I see so obvious that public employees are lawyer act in behalf of all Canadian can be rich poor mid class it does not matter geneder religion or where they come from period. As lawyer they signed confidentially agreement ethic act of how they act based of their fees collecting. Government of canada is act government inside government by hiring their human resources job creation lawyer signed their contract turn their job we work for them while they have work for us. They created unnecessary job and faked salary signed by their lawyer. For example I was in city of Hamilton last week I saw park your car 3 hour or 2 hour free sign first time in my life because in Toronto we only have 1 hour. I parked my car 12:10 pm. And I left less than two hour I backed I saw ticket in my car window said unknow time but time of ticket 12:30 pm I noticed that is only trap make money sign. Other man he told me he got ticket for no reason that public sector think we are cow and they have to take make milk of money
I’m not wrong about that, because I agree that government work can contribute real value, I’ve done some myself. But I see how I didn’t make that clear.
I agree that it is a question of whether we overpay for some of it, but we must also question whether much of the work that government employees do is of any value. The money they return to the government in taxes is not a real contribution because they got it from the government, the work they do may be a real contribution to the value of the economy.
One of my siblings is a schoolteacher. I know she is thoughtful and diligent in her work, but she costs more than our schoolteacher parents did, handles smaller class sizes, and because of the “progress” in education her efforts are diverted to propping up whatever the current fashion is in teaching methods and social justice indoctrination.
Dead on.
Drygoods, medicine and ammo.
Have a skill that benefits your skilled neighbours.
Simple rules to survive the coming death of the imaginary host.
The taxpaying masses are vanishing, the tax consuming cretins are experiencing exponential growth.
The tax issue, as in government employees insisting they contribute taxes is a litmus test of their intelligence.Those who realize they are abusively lied to about their rate of renumeration soon depart from the government rolls.
The dangerous servant, destructive master nature of bureaucracy and fire is lost on fearful fools who seek to manipulate all who they meet.
Those who seek to rule all are usually very small.
If government is useful, it is as a morality play, demonstrating the benefit of civilization to those fools and bandits born to us in each generation.
When those who have begged and bothered us for their opportunity to play these roles, then turn around and rewrite the script to attack the foundations of civil society demonstrating that they are the Blind Worms Gnawing at the foundations of civilization, then it is the audiences right and duty to pummel them senseless and cast them from the stage.
Seems we need a modern William Shakespeare.
When the supporting “bit actors” come to believe they are the stars, the play degrades to idiotic slush.
Have you had to deal with a “civil servant” lately?
Enough already.
If you believe there is a problem with private sector bosses not being worth their wages, remember you can help solve it by providing the market with the service those bosses provide, but doing it for less. It’s called competition.
But you aren’t allowed to compete with civil servants providing services. That’s called collusion between politicians and bureaucrats to feather each other’s nests at the expense of the voters, and incompetence and apathy on the part of the voters.
Here in BC the outlandish salaries don’t even get you very competent people.
To: knight 99 @ 11:04. I do not know what goes to your mind flash back out of reaality of what I said but as I can guess you are in border line of scchzophernia it is better ask some kind of treatment. Plus I do not know your geneder Are you sure you do not have saudi arabia blood race man just hate shia iranian or sister or wife of netayahoo israeli hated muslim woman talking. Or one of transgender look judge I saw in hamilton court told me without see my respondant material said to lawyer of insurance company she is wining close her claim but she is not credible court officer lawyer but you are he issue temporirly order to favour of other party until I bring my respondant to remove his order I said what you mean I am not credible! without time file my respond material he dare give any order to other party because I am wining by facts to make fake order yah. Muslim are not targeted by government employee!. Is government of canada do check their judge mental stable or what!
cgh……government has only produced one thing…poverty. They have no productive people, no people doing anything to improve the health, wealth, or betterment of anybody, except themselves. THAT is the fact and truth.
“Reporters are still poring through the six-volume report of big earners, but it appears Ontario Power Generation CEO Tom Mitchell topped the list again with $1.55 million in salary and benefits.”
Does Ontario PG make a profit every year?
In B.C., we often pay huge salaries to CEO’s of Crowns that lose massive amounts of money every year, does Ontario also do this?
I have no problem paying a CEO what he’s worth, but too often there is no evidence the person IS worth his high falutin’ salary. If the corporation is losing money or not providing an efficient and cost effective service, how can the CEO salary be justified?
In B.C., our B.C. Ferries corporation was notorious for paying their CEO and top executives the big dollars, but every year the cost of using the Ferries went up and services were cut. Same situation existed with BC Rail.
In the private sector, a CEO either produces or is soon fired,in Crowns, it seems political connection is all that counts, ability doesn’t matter.
I won’t even mention the golden handshakes a Crown CEO gets after years of losing money until public outrage catches up with him.
I’ve tried to explain this circular transfer to friends in the Public Sector. They get 100K salary from the Govt, pay back $25K in taxes, then get 100k again next year, all from the same place. They’re never out the money.
That’s much better, Tooner. What that last I agree completely. Indeed much of the work done may well be wasteful or useless. But to argue that there is no value from government output is simply wrong. And arguing that the private sector can do it better simply avoids the point. You mentioned education, please don’t get me started on how utterly useless OISE is.
Don Morris, of course OPG doesn’t make a profit every year. Its rate of return is restricted at a low level to provide cheap electricity. That has a knock-on effect of customers including industrial ones pay cheaper rates than would otherwise be the case. Yes, CEOs always get paid highly. The problem with government is they’re much less quick to pull the trigger on losers than the private sector is. Efficiency comes from accountability, but that’s often lacking in Big Government.
Joey, one can equally argue that the productivity of the private sector would not exist without government. It may occur to you at some point that you’re engaged in a chicken-and-egg argument.
@Knight99, TheTooner: Hahaha…your antidiluvian understanding of how the corporatized private sector works is so cute.
What people forget is that the “public sector” also spends their paychecks in the private sector too. so at the end of the day it kinda balances out……..but not really …..the people who rightfully produce the goods and services are being taken to the cleaners by the ones in the public sector who are in all honestly on average very lazy,complacent,negligent,and in general arrogant rude and narcissistic a few exceptions here or there but they know they won’t get fired or reprimanded or punished in anyway. so basically they take more and more of the the private sector money who would spend it on other privates sectors bars, cars,groceries, campers, couches,screwdrivers, blankets, blah blah blah….though taxation for themselves who then go and spend it on those same things. it is wealth transfer/theft/taxation flat out private sector could function 100% on its own with out gov it would establish its own gov ….just like conservatives right of center people could function with out liberals but liberals and gov/public sector could NEVER function with out conservatives or the private sector.
“Ontario is a living testament to public sector creep spawned by Keynisnism taken to its natural conclusion – it is at a stage now where unionized public servants interfere in the election cycle to the point they decide which governing faction takes power – the priority of that government is to meet Public sector union demands…”
DrD, “…in Ontario, the Liberal party of Ontario is no longer the political party FOR government; it is the political party OF government.”
Both Occam and DrD have it right. All the other provinces have varying degrees of this soft form of communism. At the rate that this takeover of government by the public sector unions as well as the ever increasing size of the public sector and the brown-nosing by the crony capitalists to gain government contracts we soon all will be government workers in some form and not have to debate this any longer.
The last Alberta government was also put in power by public sector unions and they are already working in Saskatchewan to make our next government.
All this discussion on this thread does not even touch the extent to which government is telling us how to think and how to live our daily lives.
“@Knight99, TheTooner: Hahaha…your antidiluvian understanding of how the corporatized private sector works is so cute.”
Really? I earn over 300K annually, I’m glad you find it cute. My understanding of the private sector appears more profitable than yours it seems. I’ll stick with mine thanks.
Hey Pee, why don’t we say that OPG employees learn what the word “WORK” actually means, and then have them try it out. Having “watched” them work, having worked with X OPG workers, and having talked to OPG workers, they are mostly under-worked and over paid.