Oh here we go.
The first person who starts a 9mm vs .45 vs calibre of your choice is a rotten egg. Boo hiss.
Similary, Hi-Power vs 1911 vs Glock vs whatever frame you want to discuss.
Basically here are about 5-6 “modern appliance” designs for 9mm they are reliable easy to shoot and simple to maintain. If you like one over the other that is strictly personal taste. They all work JUST FINE with normal ammo.
9mm is not terribly powerful, people (like special forces guys) who are A. Bigger B. Whose life are likely to depend on one shot kills. C. Who practice, D. Are more likely get into pistol range shootouts may decide they need/want a slightly more powerful round. Again there’s 1/2 dozen pistols and cartridges that are proven & reliable. Pick what amuses you.
Fine.
Since in EITHER case you are probably not going to be carry much ammo for them, I mean EVEN the Special forces weenies probably don’t go through 100r (on a mission) just allow anyone to cares have “the big gun” and everyone 95%+ else gets a 9mm appliance.
The logistics load of the things is trivial.
I have put a few thousand rounds downrange with a Colt 1911A1 .45ACP and a Glock 20 10mm. From my point of view, they both do a pretty good job of poking holes in paper targets. I reload, so I deliberately load so that both have similar recoil.
Glock gets my vote for ease of dis-assembly, but I’ll take the 1911 hands-down any time for comfort – it just fits my hand much better.
Fred2:
Spot on!
Can’t add a thing, can’t disagree on a thing.
I worship at the altar of the .45, Fred! The 9mm Europellet was designed by sissies to kill other sissies!
And the Glock may be perfect for black pimps, gang bangers and Eurowankers…but if you have to shoot a polymer pistol the HK’s are the best of the breed.
I will tolerate no dissention on this topic.
I will tolerate no dissention on this topic.
Posted by: Big Bad Jim
well then, that’s the end of it, our master has spoken.
Reminds me of the classic debate over whether blondes or brunettes are better lovers.
The 17 is prone to jamming when wet. My brother was taking potshots on the boat (He wasn’t shooting seals! Hell no! That’s illegal) and once it got wet it was done for the day. My S&W 29 on the other hand… It just kept going, soaked with sea water and bits of, er, stuff. Mind you, the 17 is easy to shoot and tears down in a simple, intuitive way. But I will stick with a revolver any day. Guaranteed to poke holes in all weather. Plus, it has the added bonus of being able to drop a bear, whereas the 17… It would just tickle the critter a bit and convince him that you really need to be eaten.
Which one is lightest? Cheapest? With all the money spent and all the gear a soldier must pack, I would think those two factors should be most important. That and which one can be silenced easiest because silencers are cool.
what would Barry O shoot? or what did he shoot on his birthday between rounds of golf and rounds of skeet?
“…I will tolerate no dissention on this topic.”
Posted by: Big Bad Jim
After that demonstration of your ability to make a rational argument, I quite understand that you cannot afford to tolerate dissent.
If you are ever shot with a 9mm and then feel you haven’t been shot enough, just ask the shooter to repeat until you are satisfied. I wager he’ll have enough rounds.
By the way, “dissent” is the word you needed for your last sentence, since “dissention” isn’t one.
It seems to be one of those little tomes of unexamined wisdom that the 9mm is somehow vastly inferior to other handgun rounds. The reality is that the current generation of hollow point bullets, in the common service calibers, have penetration and expansion results that are closely clustered about the statistical mean. In other words the terminal results of 9mm, 40, and 45 are not nearly as different from one another as the debate among enthusiasts would suggest.
I have pistols in 9mm, 357 SIG, and the mighty 45. I more often carry 9mm and never feel woefully unprotected with it.
The topic line is “MOD ahead of DOD”. No they are not. Unless something has changed in the American forces pistols are very widely issued. Most if not all combat soldiers carry a side arm. In the British forces (and Canadian) they are issued more as badges or rank like swords used to be, and they are about as useful.
The average soldier can’t hit the broad side of a barn with one, and why bother if you have a rifle? As long ago as WW1 officers ditched the pistol, which was the only weapon that they were issued with (they are their to lead, not fight) and picked up a rifle at the earliest opportunity. Pistols have their place but I think for the average soldier they are a complete non issue.
I have to go with redheads. You may get to sleep with a blonde or a brunette, but you’ll never get any sleep with a redhead.
Reminds me of the classic debate over whether blondes or brunettes are better lovers
Or which is better Chev, Ford, Plymouth. Getting a little tiresome, what?
On the other hand, I’m a Walther guy…
but you’ll never get any sleep with a redhead
Too much snoring?
“But despite several past efforts, the U.S. Army – the Pentagon’s executive agent for small arms – has been unable, and in some cases unwilling, to replace the M4 carbine and the M9 pistol with more-modern, better-performing weapons.”
Ahahahahahaha
So why do British Special Forces use M4s then?
Oh right, the author of this piece doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about.
“Pistols have their place but I think for the average soldier they are a complete non issue.” Agreed, besides, a pistol in your hand is a giveaway to the enemy that you have rank. In combat a pistol is useful only in a pinch or as a personal defense weapon. I thought the Walther P 38 I had for a few years was a great personal sidearm.
north of 60 is right about it being a personal view if blondes or brunettes [or redheads ;-)] make better lovers.
It is like the debate about Ford or Chev, and the last number of years Toyota or Honda.
The Glock has man design flaws, the most compelling is its safety. The Glock is popular simply because it is easy to shoot, good pointability and its mild recoil – just the thing for female service personel or a home owner with little shooting experience. It has its place but I personally would not trust my life to it.
Yeah, lately I’m a Walther guy as well.
MissAnthropy makes a good point.
Back in the day, I found the 45ACP helpful, but then my dispenser had a 10″ barrel and 2 handles…..but I had a P35 in my leather bra……all rounds marked deep with the sign of the cross…
minuteman makes a good point as to issuing policies of the US vs Canadian/Brit. My observation is that up close and personal a pistol of anything 9mm and up is a devastating thing.
During the “6 day War” the IDF Uzzie (9mm) worked real good in the Syrian trench/bunker system on the Golan…a close quarter scrap against AK armed resistance.
It has long been known that organized crime prefers .22 for “hits”…cheap, relatively quiet, lethal and disposable.
Jim Carey is still dumb and/or dumber……
sasquatch~but I had a P35 in my leather bra
I’m loving the image; but perhaps “35” was the bra size, and P38 was the gun.
All right. Hap! Hap Shaughnessy! Give us your life experiences with the Glock!
Prefer the S&W M&P 9 over the Glock, and prefer a 1911 over both, shoot them all.
Actually there’s nothing wrong with the Browning Hi-power the Brits are replacing, I do like the slim profile and metal construction keeping it on target better than the polymer pistols. Although still prefer the CZ-75/85 over the Browning especially with options and variants.
Ergonomics and aesthetics baby, to each their own.
Glastnost — Thinking he’s referring to a Browning Hi Power 35 rather than a Walther.
Ken has a good point about pistols signifying rank. On many battlefields having an obvious pistol is a good way to become sniper bait, since they figure you’re an officer. Couple guys I went to high school with are now commissioned officers in the US Army. They said in “the ‘stan” it is wise to ditch the belt holster in favor of a shoulder or chest holster.
Although still prefer the CZ-75/85 over the Browning
I agree that the CZ is a better design, but still like shooting the classic Browning HP. The HP was in high demand in ‘Nam, where the extra magazine capacity as compared with the 1911 was an advantage.
Meh. I’ve treated patients shot 5 – 6 times with a wide variety of pistol cartridges and they were still up and about even having been shot in thorax and abdomen. I’ve had patients shot once with the lowly .22lr and the lucky or well placed shot nearly put then into the ground. It’s all depending on luck, skill, or how much time has gone by for blood loss to take effect.
I’ll use either. I like the grip and slim size on a 1911 but really do like the mag capacity of the glock 9 mm since I am usually only carrying two mags at a time – legally in the US.
At the end of the day you want to ensure you are doing real damage use a rifle or a shotgun I am not convinced about any handgun calibre for quickly stopping anything that is moving and up close. Though it does convince people to choose a different victim from what I’ve heard…
It has been proposed that stupidity such as NY State magazine limits will make .45ACP more popular than the 9mm para…
We used to tell the guys with the 1911s they was too lazy to shoot twice….no need to double tap….
Actually the SOP folk prefer the 1911 as much as anything to keep their kit weight down. Less rounds but more effect for the weight carried.
Glasnost
I carried a P35 Hi-Power at that time….since Canada’s registry, storage regs etc and local armed robbers took it, I now use a Walther P38. That ain’t speculation the brigands had a list…..
Funny thing….they missed all the magazines….and clips….
Likely has a lot to do with costs, the price of a mil/police contract Glock is around $265 with 5 mags. That’s quite a bit cheaper than most. I like the M&P over the Glock, but nothing really wrong with the G17. Another good choice would be the Sig 2022. basically all modern pistols are good. What you need to focus on is training and a adequate ammo supply so people can practice with the issued pistol. I tell people I can shoot pistol despite my army training.
Jeff Cooper claimed that you had to be careful around the 9mm, you could put someone’s eye out..
Jeff Cooper aside…Gabby Gifford was lucky in many ways. The victims at Fort Hood as well.
Chief among those was the idiot’s ignorance…using full jacketed loads…USAF standard 147 gr HP would have altered the outcome decisively.
Fort Hood…the FN 5.5 may punch through body armour but has a minimal terminal effect on flesh….like a hypodermic…
Grisly business…
This captcha is retarded (or illiterate)…I got my glasses on.
I solved the 9mm vs .45acp question by getting both. I have the exact G17 in the picture and a gen 3 as well. A couple of 1911’s round out the stable.
The Glock is 100% reliable and the best duty pistol going. It takes a little more training to learn a good grip and trigger control to shoot it accurately.
Just heard from a Glock source in the U.S. that they are back ordered 800,000 units and increasing every day.
There was a time there was gunplay in the streets. But now, it’s mostly Glockenspiel.
ebt
Actually serious research indicates that the “Wild West” was not really all the wild….
Much of what comes down to us is much like the Jeremia Johnson lore….the product of the fiction writers of the day.
Inconvenient truths such as “Wild Bill Hickok” and Jesse James being shot in the back. The famous OK Corral incident involved a host of shooters blazing away for about 5 minutes, up close and personal, with only 2-3 fatalities.
Bill Tillman, a genuine lawman….shot in the back in the early 20th century….because he assumed the contempory bad guys were as principled as during the early days.
Indeed, it is established that successful gunfighters were not so much good shots, or fast but rather disciplined, competant maintainers/cleaners of their weapons.
Personally I used to carry an Eastern Block knock-off of the Walther PPK chambered in .380, on the principle that having a gun in a gun fight was more important than having a really BIG gun. Which I left at home because it was too big to carry around all day. So the aluminum framed FEG bean shooter was my daily carry piece.
In my mercifully brief soldiering career weight was the biggest concern, I’d have chosen another full mag for my FAL over any pistol every time.
If I was choosing a gun to -issue-, that would be different. Then you have to consider the lowest common denominator in your force, so going with a plastic framed pistol is a no brainer. Common soldiers treat their guns like sh1t unless they are in active combat roles. 9mm is the largest caliber most people can shoot without a lot of training. Training is -expensive-.
As a piece of art I far prefer the Colt 1911, and for competition it would be my choice as well. But for going to the PTA meeting or the mall, real life I picked the cheapie Walther knock off. 100% reliable with Speer Gold Dots and it didn’t stick out of my pants like a giant turkey drumstick.
These days of course I carry a phone. Because I am a Canadian. It has been decided that it is best that I die trying to dial 911. Because Canadians are all crazy. Common knowledge y’know.
I am looking for a small pistol in .45 ACP to carry, but have not had much luck. The Kahr compact .45 seems to be the best choice at the moment, as my big Ruger P90, sprung heavy to accept .45 Super is a little hard to conceal.
If I have to downsize, I will most likely go with an airweight S&W chambered in .38 Special +P….
Oh here we go.
The first person who starts a 9mm vs .45 vs calibre of your choice is a rotten egg. Boo hiss.
Similary, Hi-Power vs 1911 vs Glock vs whatever frame you want to discuss.
Basically here are about 5-6 “modern appliance” designs for 9mm they are reliable easy to shoot and simple to maintain. If you like one over the other that is strictly personal taste. They all work JUST FINE with normal ammo.
9mm is not terribly powerful, people (like special forces guys) who are A. Bigger B. Whose life are likely to depend on one shot kills. C. Who practice, D. Are more likely get into pistol range shootouts may decide they need/want a slightly more powerful round. Again there’s 1/2 dozen pistols and cartridges that are proven & reliable. Pick what amuses you.
Fine.
Since in EITHER case you are probably not going to be carry much ammo for them, I mean EVEN the Special forces weenies probably don’t go through 100r (on a mission) just allow anyone to cares have “the big gun” and everyone 95%+ else gets a 9mm appliance.
The logistics load of the things is trivial.
I have put a few thousand rounds downrange with a Colt 1911A1 .45ACP and a Glock 20 10mm. From my point of view, they both do a pretty good job of poking holes in paper targets. I reload, so I deliberately load so that both have similar recoil.
Glock gets my vote for ease of dis-assembly, but I’ll take the 1911 hands-down any time for comfort – it just fits my hand much better.
Fred2:
Spot on!
Can’t add a thing, can’t disagree on a thing.
I worship at the altar of the .45, Fred! The 9mm Europellet was designed by sissies to kill other sissies!
And the Glock may be perfect for black pimps, gang bangers and Eurowankers…but if you have to shoot a polymer pistol the HK’s are the best of the breed.
I will tolerate no dissention on this topic.
I will tolerate no dissention on this topic.
Posted by: Big Bad Jim
well then, that’s the end of it, our master has spoken.
Reminds me of the classic debate over whether blondes or brunettes are better lovers.
The 17 is prone to jamming when wet. My brother was taking potshots on the boat (He wasn’t shooting seals! Hell no! That’s illegal) and once it got wet it was done for the day. My S&W 29 on the other hand… It just kept going, soaked with sea water and bits of, er, stuff. Mind you, the 17 is easy to shoot and tears down in a simple, intuitive way. But I will stick with a revolver any day. Guaranteed to poke holes in all weather. Plus, it has the added bonus of being able to drop a bear, whereas the 17… It would just tickle the critter a bit and convince him that you really need to be eaten.
Which one is lightest? Cheapest? With all the money spent and all the gear a soldier must pack, I would think those two factors should be most important. That and which one can be silenced easiest because silencers are cool.
what would Barry O shoot? or what did he shoot on his birthday between rounds of golf and rounds of skeet?
“…I will tolerate no dissention on this topic.”
Posted by: Big Bad Jim
After that demonstration of your ability to make a rational argument, I quite understand that you cannot afford to tolerate dissent.
If you are ever shot with a 9mm and then feel you haven’t been shot enough, just ask the shooter to repeat until you are satisfied. I wager he’ll have enough rounds.
By the way, “dissent” is the word you needed for your last sentence, since “dissention” isn’t one.
It seems to be one of those little tomes of unexamined wisdom that the 9mm is somehow vastly inferior to other handgun rounds. The reality is that the current generation of hollow point bullets, in the common service calibers, have penetration and expansion results that are closely clustered about the statistical mean. In other words the terminal results of 9mm, 40, and 45 are not nearly as different from one another as the debate among enthusiasts would suggest.
I have pistols in 9mm, 357 SIG, and the mighty 45. I more often carry 9mm and never feel woefully unprotected with it.
The topic line is “MOD ahead of DOD”. No they are not. Unless something has changed in the American forces pistols are very widely issued. Most if not all combat soldiers carry a side arm. In the British forces (and Canadian) they are issued more as badges or rank like swords used to be, and they are about as useful.
The average soldier can’t hit the broad side of a barn with one, and why bother if you have a rifle? As long ago as WW1 officers ditched the pistol, which was the only weapon that they were issued with (they are their to lead, not fight) and picked up a rifle at the earliest opportunity. Pistols have their place but I think for the average soldier they are a complete non issue.
I have to go with redheads. You may get to sleep with a blonde or a brunette, but you’ll never get any sleep with a redhead.
Reminds me of the classic debate over whether blondes or brunettes are better lovers
Or which is better Chev, Ford, Plymouth. Getting a little tiresome, what?
On the other hand, I’m a Walther guy…
but you’ll never get any sleep with a redhead
Too much snoring?
“But despite several past efforts, the U.S. Army – the Pentagon’s executive agent for small arms – has been unable, and in some cases unwilling, to replace the M4 carbine and the M9 pistol with more-modern, better-performing weapons.”
Ahahahahahaha
So why do British Special Forces use M4s then?
Oh right, the author of this piece doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about.
“Pistols have their place but I think for the average soldier they are a complete non issue.” Agreed, besides, a pistol in your hand is a giveaway to the enemy that you have rank. In combat a pistol is useful only in a pinch or as a personal defense weapon. I thought the Walther P 38 I had for a few years was a great personal sidearm.
north of 60 is right about it being a personal view if blondes or brunettes [or redheads ;-)] make better lovers.
It is like the debate about Ford or Chev, and the last number of years Toyota or Honda.
The Glock has man design flaws, the most compelling is its safety. The Glock is popular simply because it is easy to shoot, good pointability and its mild recoil – just the thing for female service personel or a home owner with little shooting experience. It has its place but I personally would not trust my life to it.
Yeah, lately I’m a Walther guy as well.
MissAnthropy makes a good point.
Back in the day, I found the 45ACP helpful, but then my dispenser had a 10″ barrel and 2 handles…..but I had a P35 in my leather bra……all rounds marked deep with the sign of the cross…
minuteman makes a good point as to issuing policies of the US vs Canadian/Brit. My observation is that up close and personal a pistol of anything 9mm and up is a devastating thing.
During the “6 day War” the IDF Uzzie (9mm) worked real good in the Syrian trench/bunker system on the Golan…a close quarter scrap against AK armed resistance.
It has long been known that organized crime prefers .22 for “hits”…cheap, relatively quiet, lethal and disposable.
Jim Carey is still dumb and/or dumber……
sasquatch~but I had a P35 in my leather bra
I’m loving the image; but perhaps “35” was the bra size, and P38 was the gun.
All right. Hap! Hap Shaughnessy! Give us your life experiences with the Glock!
Prefer the S&W M&P 9 over the Glock, and prefer a 1911 over both, shoot them all.
Actually there’s nothing wrong with the Browning Hi-power the Brits are replacing, I do like the slim profile and metal construction keeping it on target better than the polymer pistols. Although still prefer the CZ-75/85 over the Browning especially with options and variants.
Ergonomics and aesthetics baby, to each their own.
Glastnost — Thinking he’s referring to a Browning Hi Power 35 rather than a Walther.
Ken has a good point about pistols signifying rank. On many battlefields having an obvious pistol is a good way to become sniper bait, since they figure you’re an officer. Couple guys I went to high school with are now commissioned officers in the US Army. They said in “the ‘stan” it is wise to ditch the belt holster in favor of a shoulder or chest holster.
Although still prefer the CZ-75/85 over the Browning
I agree that the CZ is a better design, but still like shooting the classic Browning HP. The HP was in high demand in ‘Nam, where the extra magazine capacity as compared with the 1911 was an advantage.
Meh. I’ve treated patients shot 5 – 6 times with a wide variety of pistol cartridges and they were still up and about even having been shot in thorax and abdomen. I’ve had patients shot once with the lowly .22lr and the lucky or well placed shot nearly put then into the ground. It’s all depending on luck, skill, or how much time has gone by for blood loss to take effect.
I’ll use either. I like the grip and slim size on a 1911 but really do like the mag capacity of the glock 9 mm since I am usually only carrying two mags at a time – legally in the US.
At the end of the day you want to ensure you are doing real damage use a rifle or a shotgun I am not convinced about any handgun calibre for quickly stopping anything that is moving and up close. Though it does convince people to choose a different victim from what I’ve heard…
It has been proposed that stupidity such as NY State magazine limits will make .45ACP more popular than the 9mm para…
We used to tell the guys with the 1911s they was too lazy to shoot twice….no need to double tap….
Actually the SOP folk prefer the 1911 as much as anything to keep their kit weight down. Less rounds but more effect for the weight carried.
Glasnost
I carried a P35 Hi-Power at that time….since Canada’s registry, storage regs etc and local armed robbers took it, I now use a Walther P38. That ain’t speculation the brigands had a list…..
Funny thing….they missed all the magazines….and clips….
Likely has a lot to do with costs, the price of a mil/police contract Glock is around $265 with 5 mags. That’s quite a bit cheaper than most. I like the M&P over the Glock, but nothing really wrong with the G17. Another good choice would be the Sig 2022. basically all modern pistols are good. What you need to focus on is training and a adequate ammo supply so people can practice with the issued pistol. I tell people I can shoot pistol despite my army training.
Jeff Cooper claimed that you had to be careful around the 9mm, you could put someone’s eye out..
Jeff Cooper aside…Gabby Gifford was lucky in many ways. The victims at Fort Hood as well.
Chief among those was the idiot’s ignorance…using full jacketed loads…USAF standard 147 gr HP would have altered the outcome decisively.
Fort Hood…the FN 5.5 may punch through body armour but has a minimal terminal effect on flesh….like a hypodermic…
Grisly business…
This captcha is retarded (or illiterate)…I got my glasses on.
I solved the 9mm vs .45acp question by getting both. I have the exact G17 in the picture and a gen 3 as well. A couple of 1911’s round out the stable.
The Glock is 100% reliable and the best duty pistol going. It takes a little more training to learn a good grip and trigger control to shoot it accurately.
Just heard from a Glock source in the U.S. that they are back ordered 800,000 units and increasing every day.
There was a time there was gunplay in the streets. But now, it’s mostly Glockenspiel.
ebt
Actually serious research indicates that the “Wild West” was not really all the wild….
Much of what comes down to us is much like the Jeremia Johnson lore….the product of the fiction writers of the day.
Inconvenient truths such as “Wild Bill Hickok” and Jesse James being shot in the back. The famous OK Corral incident involved a host of shooters blazing away for about 5 minutes, up close and personal, with only 2-3 fatalities.
Bill Tillman, a genuine lawman….shot in the back in the early 20th century….because he assumed the contempory bad guys were as principled as during the early days.
Indeed, it is established that successful gunfighters were not so much good shots, or fast but rather disciplined, competant maintainers/cleaners of their weapons.
Personally I used to carry an Eastern Block knock-off of the Walther PPK chambered in .380, on the principle that having a gun in a gun fight was more important than having a really BIG gun. Which I left at home because it was too big to carry around all day. So the aluminum framed FEG bean shooter was my daily carry piece.
In my mercifully brief soldiering career weight was the biggest concern, I’d have chosen another full mag for my FAL over any pistol every time.
If I was choosing a gun to -issue-, that would be different. Then you have to consider the lowest common denominator in your force, so going with a plastic framed pistol is a no brainer. Common soldiers treat their guns like sh1t unless they are in active combat roles. 9mm is the largest caliber most people can shoot without a lot of training. Training is -expensive-.
As a piece of art I far prefer the Colt 1911, and for competition it would be my choice as well. But for going to the PTA meeting or the mall, real life I picked the cheapie Walther knock off. 100% reliable with Speer Gold Dots and it didn’t stick out of my pants like a giant turkey drumstick.
These days of course I carry a phone. Because I am a Canadian. It has been decided that it is best that I die trying to dial 911. Because Canadians are all crazy. Common knowledge y’know.
I am looking for a small pistol in .45 ACP to carry, but have not had much luck. The Kahr compact .45 seems to be the best choice at the moment, as my big Ruger P90, sprung heavy to accept .45 Super is a little hard to conceal.
If I have to downsize, I will most likely go with an airweight S&W chambered in .38 Special +P….