“The Dutch politician, who sees himself as heir to a recent string of assassinated or hounded mavericks who have turned Holland upside down, has been doing a crash course in Koranic study. Likening the Islamic sacred text to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, he wants the ‘fascist Koran’ outlawed in Holland, the constitution rewritten to make that possible, all immigration from Muslim countries halted, Muslim immigrants paid to leave and all Muslim ‘criminals’ stripped of Dutch citizenship and deported ‘back where they came from’.”
Note that, from the Guardian’s viewpoint, the troublemaking infidels were the ones who “turned Holland upside down,” not Van Gogh’s or Pim Fortuyn’s assassins or the harrassers of Hirsi Ali.
“But if Wilders shares positions and aims with others on the far right in Europe, he is also a very specific Dutch phenomenon, viewing himself as a libertarian provocateur like the late Pim Fortuyn or Theo van Gogh, railing against ‘Islamisation’ as a threat to what used to be the easy-going Dutch model of tolerance.
“‘My allies are not Le Pen or Haider,’ he emphasises. ‘We’ll never join up with the fascists and Mussolinis of Italy. I’m very afraid of being linked with the wrong rightist fascist groups.’ Dutch iconoclasm, Scandinavian insistence on free expression, the right to provoke are what drive him, he says.”
atheist Quebecois separatist , the problem with that line of thinking is that most people who have no religious affiliation, end up feeling a little empty. Because humans are wired in such a way as to imagine what could be, what might be and they use their emotions, faith and not just reason to do this. This tilts them to the collective. The collective tilts them to some kind of ‘ism’ … let’s say Marxism.
Then the problem that you have is that Marxism starts to behave like a religion. But unlike reformed Judeo-Christianity, Marxism does not separate the church from state .. they are one and the same. Ditto Islam, where the mosque and the state are one. Hence that’s why the lefties are so willing to partner with Islam .. .for awhile at least.
Did you ever notice how the Quebec Catholic church was once dominate in political affairs, then everybody stopped going to Church and became like Quebec atheist? Then they suddenly became the most socialist Province in Canada.
Somebody should write their thesis on this.
“This tilts them to the collective. The collective tilts them to some kind of ‘ism'[Quebecois collective racial identity–>ethnic nationalism].”
AQS: “Religion is a delusion” = “Religion is poison”: Mao Zedong said to the Dalai Lama.
Mao Zedong, the man who put 50 million people to death in starvation and chaos, a literal hell on earth. Versus the Dalai Lama, the man who is the embodiment of peace and tolerance.
“then everybody stopped going to Church and became like Quebec atheist”
Then CHOI-FM started to change the consciousness of those around Quebec City, to the point where 3 out of 5 seats are Conservative and one of the others is Andre Arthur. Then La Bauce elected the industry -> foreign minister.
>
>
jwk
by gar da pendulem she swing
“La Drapeau Rouge du communisme – atheisme -> L’Enfer Rouge du meutre par gouvernement!!”
atheist quebecois separatiste –
Richard Dawkins also wrote The Selfish Gene – a reductionist argument that reduces all adaptive and evolutionary actions and locates them solely in the gene.
This has been disproven by many biologists, who reject such a mechanical and reductionist argument and are aware that the whole organism is an ‘informational process’ and works with the envt. The organism isn’t just a House for genes.
Richard Dawkins also tried to reduce information and cognition to ‘bits’ like the gene, which he called ‘memes’. This is as trivial and ignorant of cognition as his genetic reductionism. Informational bits don’t act like a virus.
Now, the capacity to anticipate, hope and wonder has often been symbolized as ‘god’; that is, the awareness that life is larger than the individual. I’m an atheist; I don’t believe in god, but, I certainly accept that life is larger than the individual. Dawkins rejects even this.
No, science and atheism won’t ‘cure’ Islam. I suggest that you read Pope Benedict’s Regensburg paper. Google it. It’s on faith and reason. It’s excellent – and remember, I’m an atheist.
I agree with nomdeblog. In Quebec, when the Church moved out of defining The Truth, the govt moved in. It now defines The Truth. Along with The Unions.
Quebecers still aren’t acting as free individuals, free of their Big Bosses in the unions and govt.
Excusez-moi, ca devez “L’Enfer Rouge du MUERTE par gouvernement!!”
Science and atheism is the cure that will fix Islam.
So, what do you think the time frame on that will be….weeks, months, years, centuries, you know, something that Homeland Security can work with?
But, then, maybe an asteroid will destroy Mecca in the interim and Muslims will see it as the Sign of the Cure.
nomdeblog: socialism is not a bad thing in itself. The majority of advanced societies on earth are socialists to different degree. Even in a place like the USA, did you see the total cost of the last Bush federal budget: 3000 billon $. About 25% of the total economy of the USA not even counting state and municipal spending.
Again you people are are using false argumentation: Mao was against religion, Mao killed people, then religion must be bad.
There is no proof that atheism cause violence or mass killing behaviour. The opposite is not true.
no, quebecois, er..atheist quebecois separatiste, I disgree.
You state that atheism won’t cause violence or mass killing behaviour, while religion will cause violence/mass killing behaviour. I’m an atheist, and I disagree with you.
It isn’t the content of the belief system that causes the violence/killing – understanding the content as Belief in God/No Belief in God.
It’s the sense of Rightness of A Belief, any Belief, that causes the violence/killing.
Therefore, if someone is an atheist and rejects the notion of god, but has the notion that His Political Ideology is superior to yours and ought to rule over your land ..Nothing to do with god, belief in or no belief in…
Or, belief that His People are superior, genetically, to you and yours..
Or belief that he’s economically impoverished and you have a lot of good land…
Or belief that you stole his land five generations ago..
Or belief…
So, it’s not the presence or absence of any belief in god.
It may come as a surprise to you, AQS, but atheism isn’t inherently more Pure and Noble than a belief in god…and remember, I’m an atheist.
aqs “There is no proof that atheism cause violence or mass killing behaviour. The opposite is not true.”
Neither are true.
People cause violence.
It’s the same issue with guns .. they don’t murder people, bad people kill people. We have a Mayor (who coincidently happens to be a Marxist) and we have a lot of gang murders in Toronto .. our Mayor says it is because the guns are American and they are not registered.
Back on track … the root cause of terrorism is terrorists.
We need law and order, not some imam with a bloodline making life and death decisions about his tribe. Especially tribes now living amongst us under that glorious Librano$ voter corrupter called … multiculturalism.
We have 2 cultures in Canada and immigrants can decide if they want to be with aqs or ET and pick the appropriate language and adapt as fast as possible to Canada or being a Quebecois within the nation of Canada. Otherwise don’t come to Canada or leave.
nomdeblog:
Did you ever notice how the Quebec Catholic church was once dominate in political affairs, then everybody stopped going to Church and became like Quebec atheist? Then they suddenly became the most socialist Province in Canada.
Actually, you might notice that the geographical areas where the dominant churches are those of any denomination that are known for a greater distance between clergy and laity (RCC, Anglican, Lutheran, some Presbyterian, etc.) with less lay participation demonstrate a general political afinity for the left whereas those geographical areas where the dominant churches are those denominations that believe in the priesthood of all believers (Evangelical/Fundamental) with greater lay participation demonstrate a general political afinity for the right.
Somebody should write their thesis on this.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Should-We-Then-Live/dp/1581345364
It also follows that the adherents of Islam have a political afinity for the left.
ET, it sure is nice to hear you pounding ol’ Dawkins. That guy torqued me off as an undergrad and still does to this day. Selfish gene, as if. Reductio ad nauseam.
Thanks Brent .. I added it to my Amazon “wish list”
Interestingly the recommended ‘related” book right under it was this , which I’ve read excerpts about .
While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within
by Bruce Bawer (Author)
Your other points indicate my hunch that there is a connection between faith and feeling you can support yourself. That the less of a hierarchy the better. That while a few atheists like ET stay grounded without an ‘ism’ most will find one and often it is an ‘ism’ that doesn’t separate the religion from the state.
Left-wing atheists tend to start thinking in the supremacy of themselves to the detriment of other people’s beliefs. Marxist atheists start thinking that others are inferior because the others have status as well as different (religious) beliefs. It is then a short hop skip and jump to official indoctrination in the ideals of the new Marxist Faith as set out by the Great Leader, brainwashing, re-education camps, mass murder, and perhaps mass deportation and mass starvation for national minorities who really want to cling to their previous (religious) beliefs
–> Ukraine briefly during 1919-1923, massively during 1929-1938, again 1945-1955.
I disagree with banning books on principal. Better to have the koran out in the open where we can examine it in detail. The problem I have with Wilders and pretty much with most Europeans is they are living in cloud cuckoo land. The Dutch could arguably strip Dutch nationality from their “citizens” but I doubt they would have much luck deporting them. If, as many are now, they are born in Holland where do you propose deporting them too? Added to this the real government these days (the EU) would never allow it. The Dutch were pretty cunning when they gave nationality to refugees. Since most of the refugees had no interest in living in Holland the acquisition of a Dutch passport gave them access to anywhere in Europe, so thousands of them settled in Britain where the welfare benefits are generous. If we want to reform islam in the West I think the way to do it is to reform welfare. We really need to get our house in order on this issue.
As for Richard Dawkins. Well speaking as an atheist I personally think the man is a horse’s arse.
“he wants the ‘fascist Koran’ outlawed in Holland”
See, only an idiot artsy baby boomer with zero technological knowledge thinks that we can ban books in 2008. Butthead. Why not ban buggy whips too while you’re at it?
The very concept of a book is hugely deprecated, as we shall soon see:
“By 2010, three out of every five books published will be published at Utilizer.com…Time, New York Times, and Scientific American will be replaced by Utilizer in the next five years”
http://www.ulitzer.com/
“Ulitzer, Inc., which initially made the headlines with its “job descriptions from the future,” announced today that it will launch its Ulitzer “beta” site on July 4, 2008, with 5,500 authors and 600,000 original articles, published in more than 5,000 topic-specific online journals. Each journal offers up to 14 content-specific sections, written by the world’s most-respected authors, who are experts in their particular fields. All Ulitzer authors will get paid for their contributions.”
Remember where you read it first.
“Islam is exactly where Christianity was 500 years ago. The difference is only in the size of the world and the size of the sword.” – Yoop
This is what the uninformed claim, unfortunately. But it is absolutely false.
A statement like that is no more helpful than claiming “Islam is a religion of peace.”
Islam is exactly where Islam has always been. The opposite of Christianity. The foundationally violent ideology of Islam is proven in their own trilogy, with special regards to the actions and sayings of Mohammad.
Through the so-called enlightenment, the NT was not changed, because it did not need to be. Christ’s life example has remained the same as well. Neither is Christianity a political ideology.
Violence under the banner of Christianity cannot be foundationally connected to either the NT or Christ’s life example. On the other hand, violence commanded and rewarded through the Islamic ideology is a direct result of the trilogy, the actions and sayings of Mo, the preaching of the same and the supremacist, political ideology institutionalized into law.
Reform in Islam is not possible without gutting much of the Quran, Hadith and Sira and ridding the ideology of its founder and political aspirations. Anything else is wishful thinking. (see reformislam.org Muslims against shariah, and others)
Banning the Quran is not helpful. It must be read and perfectly understood. Many imams fear this, insisting that it can only be understood in Arabic, thereby continuing to keep the majority of non-Arabic speaking Muslims in the dark.
Exposure and factual criticism creates questions and then apostates. Islam cannot withstand the application of reason. This is apparent when you look at how vehemently the various Islamist organisations like CAIR, MAS, CIC, etc., resist debate – repositioning it as ‘Islamophobia.’ They do not debate, they threaten and work overtime to close down debate.
It is also shown in the juvenile actions against the publishing of MoTunes, the Mo Teddy Bear fiasco, etc. The protests include such juvenile chants as “Death to infidels,” “Behead those who insult Islam,” ad nauseum.
Is this mature? Is it rational? Acceptable?
Ripped of its ‘religion’ veil, the very foundation of Islam is not defendable on a rational basis. Therefore it cannot stand against an informed world.
Informed western governments must enact laws that make the practice of the political aspect of Islam seditious and against the law. Same goes for the raciism, hate, violence and misogyny.
That would be a good start. Once the hand-wringing is over.
It’s laughable to hear quebec separatist complaining about religous belief. The entire separatist cause was based on myth and sustained through blind, unreasoning faith. And, like many mainstream religions, its membership is decreasing.
” Scandinavian insistence on free expression, the right to provoke are what drive him,”
++
And getting the Koran outlawed.
“Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
Isaac Asimov
Islam is a totalitarian ideology just as Naziism was. The Koran is the islamic Mein Kampf … or Mein Jihad, if we were to translate.
1. They both demand complete obeiscance (submission).
2. They both regard certain peoples (slavs, jews, non-mulsims or non-arians) as inferior.
3. They want world domination (liebensraum).
4. They both EXPLICITLY see *terror* as a suitable strategy.
5. They both make calls to historical victimization( 1st world war or crusades).
6. They both want restauration of an historical entity (the Reich or the Caliphate).
jwkozak91, at least you are not refering to me, a right-wing atheist 🙂
Wilders has in the past advocated that “Mein Kampf” be released to the public, that there should be no bans on free speech. His point is that if “Mein Kampf” can be banned because of it’s incendiary hateful ideology, so should the Koran, because it advocates many of the same ideologies as Mein Kampf.
In fact, some would say that Mein Kampf takes many of it’s cues from the Koran, especially with it’s hatred of Jews and Christians.
I give big kudos to Geert for calling islam what it is, A blight on human civilization. It needs to be irradicated from western civilization ASAP.
The death cult of Islam is here NOW. It’s no longer a matter of polite debate to consider politically correct ideological and cultural differences along with the delusional utopian nonsense the crazy leftists liberals have infected our societies with.
How much longer will North Americans watch European countries burn as these old societies crumble under the invasion of this fascist cult? Collapsing governments, deteriorating economies, failing social programs, and getto cultures are the increasing norm of these once great countries. The liberal attitudes have brought upon these open-minded societies daily gang rapes and murder of their women whom they profess to protect and give equal rights and opportunity. They’ve subjected their children to censored and altered educational programming, completely denying them the freedoms they themselves had enjoyed in youth – won to the death by millions of their own parents.
The debate over the prevention of this disease is long lost in our societies, we are infected like it or not and must strip away the politically correct bullshit that placed us in this societal genocide we now face.
Europe is the metaphorical crystal ball proving to us across the ocean what we have to look forward to in our future, so why not study and use it wisely?
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/theeditorialpage/story.html?id=5162d29c-ffe4-4f4a-8d25-fe5e097c0963
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/city/story.html?id=aef197b6-f9ae-4456-9944-81807363be06
Islam is at odds with our civil societies where we have laws against the Koran directives as interpreted by (radical?) Islamic clerics to brain wash and incite hatred.
If this is not the case, why are we fighting Islamic terrorism around the world?
The Muslims who come to our Western Democracies can only fit in and contribute to our countries by following our laws and way of life as free societies under the rule of law.
It’s not incumbent upon us to revert to the 14th century they’re stuck in, condone or tolerate brutality in the name of Islam. To live that lifestyle they must return to where it is a way of life and live their lives in suppressed isolation.
At this point they seem to be doing a bang up job eliminating each other on their own turf, it’s a way of life.
We have to open our eyes to what’s happening in Europe and Britain and fast.
In Ontario we have Dough Head McGuinty scrapping the Lord’s Prayer in the Legislature in order to be more “inclusive”. The first mouthpiece out of the gate from the Muslim “community” is the likes of “Professor” Mohamed Elmasry with support and a suggestion of what might replace the Lord’s Prayer.
This is the same Elmasry who said all Jews over 18 were fair targets.
Will we sit back and let our politicians sell us out for political gain? Afraid we know the answer.
Sput,
“If the muslims are citizens de-citizenising them is more difficult than you would think.”
Canada did it to Zundel and he was mostly harmless, if offensive, pathetic crank. Gemany threw him in jail after we deported him.
Islamofascists are 10,000 times as dangerous as some loser who thinks the Holocaust didn’t happen because the islamofascists want to finish the holocaust – and add us to it.
I hate to quibble, but what does Pim Fortuyn’s assassination have to do with radical Islam? He was killed by animal-rights activists.