56 Replies to “But Don’t Let That Stop You”

  1. So if we had only two “observers” over there and one gets killed then that would imply that there was a 50% casualty rate.
    Unfortunatly, most of the Leftoid MSM crowd will never understand my point(above) and have us believing Canada is on a slippery slope to a new Vietnam war.

  2. Military operations are built on a pyramid structure. The more people at the pointy end, the greater the base, in geometric proportions. The logistics train is huge in a modern army.
    Now, add to that, that the Americans are providing all the allies with massive air support, which in itself has even a larger logistic train, and the numbers become even more scewed.
    Journalists, for the most part, should go through a daily bitch slapping when it comes to things military.

  3. “The proportion of Canadian soldiers killed by enemy action is higher even than it was in all but one year of World War Two…”
    The MSM should be f**king ashamed of themselves for creating such hysterics.
    IMHO,this extreme spinning of stats is nothing less than scandalous.

  4. I spent several hours in the past month trying to teach statistics to a business student who insisted that he only wanted to pass the course, not understand the material, since he’d never need to use it again.
    It seems that much of the press feels the same way.

  5. I hate it when anyone – and every media and every politician is guilty as sin on this – of playing the “rates” game. It should almost be mandatory to require absolute numbers to be given at the same time so we can judge for ourselves.

  6. I thought the Aspers were jewish and if so,how could they be in bed with the anti jewish msm?

  7. Human sacrifice in Afghanistan is one of the tragic necessities of helping a desperate, but hopeful people at a time when we can make a difference.
    All discussions about ‘who’s carrying how much of the burden’ aside, Canada is proudly playing a lead role in providing essential development and security assistance.
    We need to continue to do more. Canada needs to commit to a lasting presence beyond 2009. If we leave before important gains are secure, we risk watching our sacrifices dissolve and a country slip back into chaos.
    That’s why we founded ‘Canadians for Afghanistan’, a non-partisan coalition pushing for a lasting commitment.
    Check us out at http://www.supportourmission.ca and let us know what you think.
    Sincerely,
    Josh McJannett
    Canadians for Afghanistan
    http://www.supportourmission.ca

  8. Isn’t it concerning that Canadians are dying at a greater rate than others?
    This reminds me of the France Map in the Onion atlas: “in 1917 Canadian troops fought beside, but mostly in front of british troops.”
    Yelling at the paper for publishing statistics you don’t like is a little childish, no? What if they supported your world view and weren’t published… you’d be screaming.

  9. A long time ago journalists/reporters thought it their job to report the news, whereas to-day most believe they have been chosen as social engineers. Truth is alien and of no importance when you are agenda driven. So-called reporting now mostly consists of misrepresentation, twisting and lies, and they wonder why they continue to lose credibility.

  10. I’ve done some number crunching of my own on this issue, and came up with what I believe is something which more accurately measures the cost of conflicts like Afghanistan. I looked at the total number of troops sent to a conflict over a period of years and calculated the death rate over the same period of time.
    So far, around 16,000 Canadian troops have been rotated through Afghanistan; 74 have died. That’s a death rate of about .46 per 100 troops in theatre.
    Compare this to America in Vietnam: 2,000,000 troops rotated through Vietnam; 57,000 died. That’s a rate of 2.85 deaths per 100 troops in theatre.
    Relevant Canadian figures for World War Two are as follows: Out of just over 1 million personnel who served in the armed forces over the course of the war, 45,000 died. That is a rate of about 4 deaths per 100 service personnel, around 10 times the number Canada is experiencing today in Afghanistan.

  11. Pah. What did they expect? Back when we first went into Kandahar, we knew it was the most dangerous area. Our politicians took so long in their decision to commit forces that by the time they said “ok”, the only region that HADN’T been assigned was Kandahar. We were late to the party, so we got the shitty seats. What did they expect?
    As for the numbers themselves, they’re based on death statistics for 2006 – a year during which we lost 32 men. Considering that since 2001 we’ve only lost 74, that means that they’re looking at one year out of 6 during which we took almost 50% of our total casualties.
    This is like taking the number of American soldiers fighting the battle of Fallujah, figuring out their death statistics for that one battle, and then pretending that that’s the death rate for the entire Iraq war. It’s nonsense. They’re screwing around with numbers in order to generate a scandal. I guess when you can’t find any news to report on, you have to make up your own.

  12. I think this is, sad to say, just typical Canadian chest thumping, as part of our everready eagerness to claim that we are Better Than The Americans. So, claiming that More Of Us Die For Freedom, than Americans or British, is, yes, a kind of perverse gloating.
    Notice that the headline doesn’t refer to the Brits, just the Americans.
    Notice also that a ratio statistic doesn’t tell us much about the actual war effort. Canada has lost about 74 since we began in Afghanistan; the US has lost almost 4,000 in Iraq alone.
    Furthermore, as noted, the losses could be interpreted as due to poor equipment and poor strategies etc, rather than ‘bravery in the high risk areas’.
    Frankly, we need a revamping of our military image. We’ve had years of denying any military responsibilities in the world by painting our military only as ‘peacekeepers’ – ignoring the work of a military to establish such a peace in the first place.
    So, it’s about time that Canada reclaimed a valid image of a military and acknowledged that it includes risk-taking, working in volatile areas, and yes, casualties.
    Let it happen; let Canada boast a bit about it finally reclaiming a military responsibility in the world.

  13. THat is a very, very, very good question H. Ryan. So good in fact that we can expect a fully-reasoned and articulate straightforward response from the likes of Kate et al.
    ……….
    ……….

  15. It’s should be the same for all news reporting, give us the straight goods, straight facts, nothing more.
    Hopefully most of us are capable of making our own deductions.
    Alain, you are right on. Too many in the media are playing a very dangerous game with agenda driven social engineering.
    National Post can expect a few reprimands on this one. Mine is already sent as a subscriber.

  16. And the National Post is, of course, Canada’s only conservative newspaper. Or so I’m told.
    As for your question, h.ryan, I think it’s being treated with the respect it deserves.

  17. Don’t know who would have told you that, Rick. Can’t discount the Sun chain, Canada’s largest print media: it is certainly no liberal or Liberal newspaper chain.

  18. “I thought the Aspers were jewish and if so,how could they be in bed with the anti jewish msm?
    Posted by: h.ryan. at January 3, 2008 2:27 PM”
    “THat is a very, very, very good question H. Ryan. So good in fact that we can expect a fully-reasoned and articulate straightforward response from the likes of Kate et al.
    Posted by: Throbbin at January 3, 2008 2:55 PM”
    How much do you want to bet these two are university students and they think this is really profound brilliant commentary?

  20. “How much do you want to bet these two are university students and they think this is really profound brilliant commentary? ”
    ya probably majoring in Politically Correct Anthropology or Progressive Woman’s Social Justice Issues or some other equally useless wast of their time and daddy’s money.
    They’ll be whining on in a few years how their student loan burden is oppressive, they can only find work flipping burgers and can’t understand why they still live in their parent’s basement and need an allowance to survive.

  21. I think the thrust behind this story is just plain old business…tragedy sells newspapers and newspapers are for advertising. They are creating a story where none exists in order to “sex up” a slow news day and sell papers.
    And ET, I think you have it backwards…they aren’t gloating when they compare our losses to the American losses. They believe that the masses believe that Iraq is another Vietnam and that we’re doing worse than the Americans in another Vietnam…therefore our losses should be considered staggering.
    Sensationalism, not journalism…consider them as the “National (Enquirer) Post”.

  22. The MSM agenda is regime change. In Canada. To them, it does not matter what stick they use to hit Harper as long as it stings – that is, encourages the sheeple to vote against him. That means, in turn, the Librano sect is back in. And the partying and steak dinners and Orders of Canada and Governal Generalships and all the other entitlements to which our glorious MSM is entitled can flow again. This is entirely consist with having no moral compass.
    The MSM in Canada has ZERO credibility with anyone in my home.
    So whoever was asking in an earlier comment how the Aspers blah blah blah, consider whether it’s better, or not better, to have your buddies in office with their hand on the good times tap…
    It’s just about power, and power let’s good buddies henjoy da izzy monies. The MSM knows it, the Libranos know it. Too few of the people realize it.
    That’s why the blogs have to keep chiseling away at this cabal. With the younger generation having it’s face glued into their Internet browsers, the MSM’s days of this game are numbered. They all have to know it too.
    Another question on my mind is what is being taught by the journalism academics these days? Especially in Canada. What are they saying about blogs? Or have they not clued in yet? Let me guess…

  23. The casualties as a result if the raid on Dieppe in WWII was 67% with 907 killed and 2460 wounded out of 5000 who hit the beach.
    I don’t want to take away in the least what our men and women are doing in Afghanistan but to compare the casualty rates with WWII casualty rates is absurd and insulting to those who fought those massive and horrific battles like Dieppe.
    What a friggen Ahole.

  24. Still waiting abcd….
    The statistics are accurate. If you people don’t take issue with the statistical accuracy cited in the article, then what are you people whining about?
    I think you guys are just angry. Angry over who knows what, but angry and looking for some issue, any issue, over which to whine about.
    Blame the journalists while you’re at it too – because we all know they’re all conspiring in a huddle somewhere and how to mislead and con “real people” into believing something that fits with their agenda.
    All of this paranoia cannot be good for you.

  25. typical Asper sensationalizing and propagandizing.
    I think we can safely say the Post must now be held suspect for much of it’s content…there is a very telling reason why Steyn won’t return.

  26. One of the reasons we have had such a high casualty rate, relatively speaking is because we don’t have enough heavy lift helicopters, or any really, since the Mulroney government sold our chinooks to the Dutch. The Cretien government then canceled the New Shipborne Aircraft contract, and as far as I know no other government has reactivated it. They weren’t specifically intended for heavy lift, but probably could have been used in that role, as the Sea Kings were in Somalia.
    Helicopters are the trucks of a modern military. I don’t know the exact number but an awful lot of our people were killed by roadside bombs while on supply missions in trucks (or armoured vehicles providing security). These deaths could all have been avoided if we had more helicopters.
    Of course pretty much everyone here is correct with their comments about statistics and context etc.

  27. Oh, and by the way Fred – it’s interesting to read your rants against students – with books and “liberal biased facts” being bad and all. Whatever you do, do not ever, ever let anyone teach you anything out of a book, ever. We like you just the way you are.

  28. The National Post is about the best you’re going to get in Canada. In the name of “fair and balanced” they are required to pander to all political spectrums. Try reading the Sun for example – a “fake” conservative tabloid which promotes higher taxes, kyoto, leniency in our justice system etc. This is why I like looking at SDA – Kate covers issues which are deliberately ignored by the MSM. Keep in mind that the most despised members of our society – ahead of lawyers and politicians – are journalists – the MSM has lost it’s credibility.

  29. Last night I went out for dinner with three lovely women. Men looked at me with envy. The three woman had an average age of 26. They were my mother-in-law (age 68) and my two daughters(ages 6 and 4).
    Let’s not forget too that half the troops killed were killed in accidents and not in battle. In comparison with Kosivo, Afghanistan is pretty safe. If my memory serves me correctly we lost almost 125 troops in that Kosivo war. Where was the media then? Oh yeah, the Liebrals were in power at the time, sorry.

  30. There’s statistics, and damn statistics…
    As far as violent death is concerned, it is statistically safer to be a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan than to be a resident of some Toronto neighbourhoods.
    And Iraq?
    The ratio of Americans killed by enemy violence over the course of the present Iraq operation?
    -60 per 100,000-
    The ratio of residents of Washington, DC, killed in violent crimes over the same time period?
    -83 per 100,000-
    Which, just like the article above, has bugger-all to do with anything. Except pure spin, of course.
    Twits.

  31. I think everyone is missing the really important point. The majority of our casualties are not from combat. They’re from IED’s. It’s not the combat mission that’s causing casualties, its the very act of being in Afghanistan.
    We’d be losing people to IED’s no matter what our troops were doing (the problem with roadside bombs is they have a hard time differentiating a hard nosed, armed to the teeth Mobile Command grunt, and the cute little Red Cross nurse – basic rule is, she who trips the detonator first dies).
    It would be very interesting to postulate what the casualty rate was if all the Canadians there were doing nice warm & fuzzy CIDA stuff. I expect a lot higher.

  32. eeyore, yes, I accept your point that they aren’t gloating when they try to compare ratio statistics to show that ‘more Canadians’ are dying in Afghanistan than Americans, and than Americans in Iraq, but I’ll still accept my view as well!
    Canadians are always comparing themselves to Americans. This is a reasonable action since they are after all, our only neighbours; they are also the source of most innovative technology, which we copy and use; they are our primary export base and etc; our economy is embedded within theirs. On a personal level, I’d bet that almost every one of us has relatives (plural) there. And they are ten times our population.
    Plus, the Liberals established a specific political tactic to help them retain power in Canada. It’s called ‘Do Nothing in Canada but we can all Bash America’. So we won’t realize that we aren’t developing our own technology, our own industries, that we aren’t increasing our export base..and so on.
    So, what I’m trying to inadequately say is that I think this view is not simply a ‘Vietnam’ or quagmire image of the war; it is also an image of Canada as ‘More than The Americans’.

  33. My hat is off to all who are lost in Afganistan… whether he or she from Canada or USA… I salute em all. As for the press who slant facts to further personal motives, please keep stick to the facts and keep your agenda to yourself — The sixteenth paragraph — are we that stupid!

  34. I thought we took a really difficult mission in Afghanistan because we didn’t want to look weak for skipping out on Iraq.
    It seems to me that the data in the story just confirms that.

  35. “how could they be in bed with the anti jewish msm?”
    Posted by: h.ryan.
    Same as always; They were bought with your money by librano$$.
    Izzy Asper was the largest financial backer of Chretien in his last election.
    And to thank him Chretien gave him your money to build a museum with his name on it in Winnipeg.
    The cost for the first phase of the project is estimated to be $200 million
    http://www.wd.gc.ca/77_4534_ENG_ASP.asp

  38. Seventy Canadian deaths out of a total of 2500 soldiers deployed works out to be 2.8% and 4000 American deaths out of a total of 150,000 soldiers deployed works out to be 2.7%. This is not a huge difference, and during most of the Iraq war there has been less than 150,000 troops deployed, so this would even increase the percentage for American deaths.
    The numbers are just rough ‘guesstimates’, but are close enough to get an idea of some sort of comparison.

  39. “Oh, and by the way Fred – it’s interesting to read your rants against students – with books and “liberal biased facts” being bad and all”
    Posted by: Throbbin at January 3, 2008 4:19 PM
    Say what ??
    I happen to like books, have quite the library actually and spent a small fortune on buying books all the way to the end of Grad School.
    By the way, which is your major – Politically Correct Anthropology or Progressive Woman’s Social Justice Issues ??
    Dork.

  40. If you take into account that the U.S. has far more support troops on the ground in Iraq, out of harm’s way, the percentage even gets higher for American deaths in Iraq. I believe Canadian and Americans troops are both taking their largest death tolls from IED’s.
    What is really sad is that the Canadian military, although Harper is making big changes now, was decimated under the Liberals to the point where it actually threatens the lives of our troops in battle, not to mention it is downright embarrassing, and the Leftards should be ashamed.

  41. 74 heroes lost over six years? Holding off an enemy who fight in the most cowardly manner using children?
    Only 74 soldiers to keep the lid on a country that the ruthless Russians folded and went home from?
    Any other fighting force would regard the loss of only 74 men as a modern miracle. = TG

  43. There’s actually a very definite inaccuracy in that NP comparison. The military in World War 2 was bloated: there was a general expectation that any able-bodied male sign up, and those who didn’t were on the defensive. The conscription laws added a legal force to this social pressure.
    Nowadays, joining the military is a career choice, or a choice of calling. There is no social pressure for the typical able-bodied male to join the miltary, and there are no conscription laws. Consequently, the typical able-bodied male doesn’t. That’s the difference that counts.
    Hence, that NP article was comparing apples and oranges, as indicated by the much smaller number of troops nowadays as compared with World War 2 – both in absolute numbers and in percentage of Canada’s population (which is much higher now than then.)
    To be fair, though, the article could be defended as an attempt to show the high risks that the troopers have to take – as an indirect compliment on their bravery.

  45. During the time of the USSR,there was a race between a Russian car and an American Ford.The Ford blew the doors off of the Russian car.The next day Pravda’s headline said,”Russian car comes in second in great auto race,American car comes in next to last”.Our journalists learned well.

  46. “Russia sent in 300,000 troops and failed.
    You people think 50,000 nato troops will win this?”
    I nominate the above for the “dumb question of the week” award.

  48. Only if they are allowed to win morningstar – only if they are allow to win!
    I still say that you cannot win by converting the already committed. They must be eliminated. The committed over there still murder school children if they have the opportunity (and women if they just feel like it!) and those are the ones that cannot be allowed to roam.
    Only upon the completion of that phase of war will the remaining population be ready for any real assistance.
    CRB

  49. Amongst the 40,000 Canadian WW II fatalities were some 10,000 in Bomber Command. Which rather reduces the fatality rate in the army not that army fatality rates were not bad, esp. from D-Day until VE Day.
    So much for our media.
    Mark
    Ottawa

  50. Journalists, for the most part, should go through a daily bitch slapping when it comes to things military.
    Paul2, you forget that the weasels change sides according to the way the wind blows.
    I propose a new theorem: Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach (this is not actually globally true). Those who are useless get a journalism degree so they can preach to the rest of us and feel important.
    One “journalist” equals 1000 citizens. The problems pop up when they start believing their own propaganda and think they speak for “us”.
    Until this moment
    I have been forced
    to listen while media
    and politicians alike
    have told me
    “what Canadians think”.
    In all that time they
    never once asked.
    This is just the voice
    of an ordinary Canadian
    yelling back at the radio –
    “You don’t speak for me.”
    Very well stated, it is our rallying cry.

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