I really just do not get it. I do not understand why people who had nothing to do with a shameful act 90 years ago can or should apologize to people who have nothing in common with the victim but their skin color. And I do not understand, I really don’t, how this is supposed to advance rather than retard racial relations. Does any person, black or white, really think that there is any adult American today who does not (a) know about and (b) lament such lynchings? The article talks about “mak[ing] amends” and “confronting” and “legacies” and “reconciliation” and “‘reapprochement'” and “commemorat[ing]” and “‘eas[ing] long-standing tensions in the community connected to the lynching.'” This is all just gobbledygook.
I suppose there is a pro-reparations political agenda that underlies some of this, but I think the main motivations are less political than psychological. There is white guilt, of course, and–more tragically–there is the need among some African Americans to keep on the front-burner the nation’s racist past, since this somehow helps them explain existing socioeconomic disparities that have little to do with discrimination any more, and everything to do with cultural dysfunction.
Thank you, Mr. Clegg! That last sentence sums it up.
(And it’s also essentially what Bill Cosby has been saying to audiences of black people in America.)
Of course, if black people as a whole accept this truth and start the reversal of the horrific damage to black society by two generations of liberalism, the professional racism victimism whores like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Harry Belafonte, et. al. will lose their very nice meal tickets.
Without knowing all the facts of the case presented I can see how you and Roger ‘might’ have a point. However, are you both not looking at the issue of redressing past wrongs too narrowly? It’s not about white people saying sorry to black people – it’s about coming together as a community and recognizing the mistakes of the past, learning from them, and moving beyond them to something more harmonious. It’s not just goobledygook. I think far too often we look at issues of redress as if they are zero-sum issues. Here in Saskatchewan, and across Canada, we are confronted by this all the time in terms of our Aboriginal peoples. Redressing the wrongs perpetrated here isn’t about pitting whites v. Aboriginals, it is about dealing with the consequences of the past as they manifest themselves today. If we can reconcile, amend, confront, and ease tensions through such commemorations perhaps we can start to breakdown the barriers that divide us as a community.
Or we can flirt with racism, throw up our hands and say ‘why bother? i don’t get it’, and then blame the problems on ‘their cultural dysfunction’.
Thanks Kate for the look at The Clegg Site, it was a hoot, I get such a kick reading other peoples opinions. They aren’t much different from the people I hang out with. It is going to be very interesting about what the our goverments are going to do with the apology to the asians about the head tax and work conditions working in Canada and the railway. Merle
I agree, Kate/Dave/Merle.
There is an element of clarifying, for the historical record, publicly and officially that the government objects to that only because the governments at the time were clearly winking and turning a blind eye and even actively colluding, but we are all individuals and an insult to my parents parents is not an insult to me.
But here in Canada, does that mean you oppose the Conservative’s apology and any payments to descendents of Canadian Chinese (by Harper) and to descendents of Canadian Japanese (by Mulroney, $300 million)?
Ted
Cerberus
NRO The Corner is must-read for anyone interested in US politics. It’s one of my daily (or more) hangouts.
>Redressing the wrongs perpetrated here isn’t about pitting whites v. Aboriginals, it is about dealing with the consequences of the past as they manifest themselves today. If we can reconcile, amend, confront, and ease tensions through such commemorations perhaps we can start to breakdown the barriers that divide us as a community
I have committed no wrongs. My father has committed no wrongs or his father. How far should I go back? Am I guilty simply because I am white(90%)? So who exactly is the racist here? The person who has done no wrong or the person who expects the innocent to apologise simply because they are a certain skin colour?
Well Ted, get busy and make a list. Don’t forget anybody. If the CPC is going to be in for the next six years they should have time to take care of everybody.
As a principle, yes, I oppose these payments. Public recognition of past injustices, etc. not as much – though I think the better vehicle lies somewhere in the realm of education, memorialization, etc.
There certainly ought to be a statute of limitations on the practice.
>I have committed no wrongs. My father has committed no wrongs or his father. How far should I go back? Am I guilty simply because I am white(90%)? So who exactly is the racist here? The person who has done no wrong or the person who expects the innocent to apologise simply because they are a certain skin colour?
Greg, you missed the point. Its not about you as an individual its about the community making the effort for its own betterment. Shouldn’t we make an effort to make things better for everyone? Or can you get by with no help from those around you? We do it all the time – transfer payments among provinces, charity, corporate social responsibility, cleaning up your dogs crap in public etc.
Rebarbarian:
I don’t mind an apology all that much. I mean, if it’s related to a reaffirmation of our commitment to equal rights for all today, what’s the harm. It’s all political anyway but no financial cost to me in and of itself.
Personally, I tend to agree with Bill Cosby about payouts to redress old wrongs like that. Likewise Mulroney’s payout to descendents of Japanese Canadians and the purported contemplation of Harper’s payout to descendents of Chinese Canadians.
But, not to belabour the point, I did not detect any “Harper should not apologize or pay” in your statement. Does it make a difference that it is a Conservative government that made the reparations previously and is contemplating them now? I don’t have to guess what I’d be hearing if it had been Martin contemplating same.
Ted
Cerberus
Kate, our comments crossed each other. Thanks for clarifying and for being honest and consistent.
Ted
Cerberus
>Or can you get by with no help from those around you? We do it all the time – transfer payments among provinces, charity, corporate social responsibility, cleaning up your dogs crap in public etc.
The answer is yes and the method is personal responsibility. I am responsible for my welfare, not you, not the government. I provide for myself and my family, not you, not the government. I also could provide for my family a lot better if I could manage to scrape a few of the leeches of my body.
En, Ted: – “it’s about coming together as a community and recognizing the mistakes of the past, learning from them, and moving beyond them to something “.
So who has the authority to decide when reparations are appropriate? Funny you mention Mulroney and reparations to Japanese internees from WW2. At the same time Mulroney generously decided to pay off the internees, he told the visiting Premier of Japan that no reparations to Canadian P.O.W.’s, of the Japanese, was necessary. “After all, it was a long time ago”, he said.
The men whosurvived the hellholes that were Japanese P.O.W. camps, especially the survivors of Hong Kong, would disagree.
Remember your text book in grade six? It always ended with a “critical thinking” section. Maybe some of you need to brush up your skills.
Roger Clegg’s original post, which cites the _Washington Post_ article, states: “healing the wounds of our shameful legacy through acknowledgment and apology.” There is no mention here of reparations. In fact, it’s Roger’s ASSUMPTION that “there is a pro-reparations political agenda that underlies some of this”.
So those of you who are ranting about reparations have entirely missed the point. The people of Waco intend to REMEMBER a historical event, in the same way that we all remember D-Day, Chernobyl, and the fire that destroyed San Francisco a century ago.
It seems clear that in some cases, racism, prejudice, and ignorance are hindering understanding.
Critical thinking–if sixth graders can do it, then so can you.
ilikelogic, not only do the people of Waco seek to commemorate the event, they want to apologize for their “shameful legacy”, as well. How many of those Texans asking for the resolution were even alive in 1917, let alone had anything to do with the lynching? An apology for something you didn’t do is no apology at all and does nothing to heal old wounds. It’s simply goveling at the feet of political correctness.
My Great Grandfather was killed in the Boar War. In those days the widow received nothing. She gave up my Grandfather to a Catholic organization and sent to Canada. He was a slave to a Nova Scotia farm family and lived in the barn for 6 years. Can I get money from the British government, the Canadian government or the Catholic church? Can I sue the Farmers great grand children? Point is I dont care because it did not happen to me.
Not as bad as the Moslems still crying over losing Spain.
Elle writes: “An apology for something you didn’t do is no apology at all and does nothing to heal old wounds.”
This has been the most insightful comment on this issue. Such apologies are also arrogant, condescending, and self-important. As an old professor of mine once reminded his class of knowing and self-righteous students, “In a hundred years, they’ll be dancing on your grave too.”
Send the Normans packing!!!!
There will always be an Angleland.
If we all go back where we came from the price of huts will soar at Oldgavi Gorge.
>As a principle, yes, I oppose these payments. Public recognition of past injustices, etc. not as much – though I think the better vehicle lies somewhere in the realm of education, memorialization, etc.
There certainly ought to be a statute of limitations on the practice.
—
I agree with the education and memorialization part but a statue of limitation can be dangerous. Governments can just ignore past injustices year after year until it runs out and is forgotten.
I do believe that those in the Chinese community who are asking for huge amounts of monitary compensation are just in it for the cash-grab. We’ve all faced obstacles coming to Canada no matter what race. I agree with Kate and others that an apology and more importanly having the history of the head tax taught in the school curriculum is a better solution.
I oppose the payments and I oppose an apology.
I wonder if we might find, one hundred years from now, that our focus on multiculturalism was actually isolation and a refusal of integration. Will we be expected to offer payments for this isolation? Our focus on bilingualism actually deprived many from key federal positions; will we offer payments for this discriminatory non-equality?
I don’t see how we, now, can apologize for what others did. Education about the facts is the best way to deal with these issues.
Enlightenment – sorry, but your post is, to me, unctuous vapidness. ‘coming together’..moving to something more harmonious’…Semantic romanticism…which is used to justify any and all actions. Including multiculturalism and bilingualism…which are our current discriminatory actions.
We all face obstacles – and to be able to define those obstacles as ‘race-based’ is a handy tactic, but, as others point out, other people’s obstacles don’t fit so easily into a race-slot. But, they are genuine and real, and include long term hardships just the same.
The present is not the past and it is an error to attempt to merge the two.
Since apologies and payments are now in fashion, I call on all left-handed people to get departments of education to apologize to them and pay them vast amounts, for the torture they were put thru in school, forcing them to write with their right hand.
I see Ted/Cerebus is doing the apples and oranges thing again.
In the 1940’s the Canadian government interned Japanese immigrants and Canadian citizens of Japanese race, and confiscated their property. Until 1946, it should be noted. The Mulroney government finally admitted, 60 years later, that this action, while lawful, had been a bad thing and did their best to give back some of what had been taken. To the actual individuals it had been taken from, namely the people who were interned or their immediate descendants who would have inherited same. As in children, not grandchildren.
That’s a reasonable response to an immoral act by government.
Reparations for (bogus!) land claims more than 100 years old, with no clear line of inheritance and three or more generations after the fact, that’s not reasonable. Official apologies for 100 year old crimes to people who’s ancestors were not the victims, that’s not reasonable either.
Ted trying to pretend these things are the same, typical.
But while we are on the subject, maybe all the gun owners in Canada could get reparations for all the stuff they had confiscated by the Mulroney and Chretien/Martin governments. Now that is something I could get behind.
Or gee, how about a TAX refund for all the money they’ve taken off us and wasted, eh? That’d be good too.
The reason why I am against both apology and reparation is first and foremost that it perpetuates the grievance-mongers and race-baiters. It allows those sowers of division to justify their agenda. Instead of bringing people together, it drives them apart.
It also excuses present failures and engenders a sense of entitlement. When you place the blame on others for your failures you excuse yourself of the responsibility to rectify your behaviour and thus, you never pull yourself up. People have to learn that no one owes you jack.
You are responsible for yourself. Period. There is no one on earth who is responsible for you. Life has never been fair. I doubt there is a person on earth who hasn’t been mistreated or wronged at least once in their lives. The difference between a loser and someone who succeeds is the loser whines about how the “man” is holding them down and the guy who succeeds never lets anyone hold them back. Take ownership of your situation and actively seek to better yourself. No one can do it for you – and no one else should.
I agree. Now.. why are so many, supporters of the nation of Israel, exactly?
I tend to agree with Bill Cosby about payouts to redress old wrongs like that.
I assume you are implying that Bill Cosby has rightfully put the onus of failure right smack on the black community where it belongs 40 years after civil rights and one of the most massive transfers of wealth via government programs to any group in the US history.
“People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we’ve got these knuckleheads walking around. … The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting,”
And:
Bill Cosby pleaded with blacks to stop blaming the “white man” for their problems on Thursday, and he reiterated his harsh critique of the current state of African-American culture.
Cosby is advocating that the black community get off their collect assess, take responsibilty, and fix their pathologies themselves in sharp contrast to race huslters like Jackson and Sharpton.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200407/SPE20040702a.html
According to the census over the last 40 years it was a major success with more blacks than ever solidly in the middle class.
The Democrats need the black vote. So keeping them on their plantation of victim grievances is a must for them.
I’m all for reparations, as long as it’s paid by the people responsible. The KKK was a welcome part of the Democratic party well into the 20th century. Southern Liberals are responsible.
And Ted, Liberals are responsible for the Japanese internment during WWII. I’m not sure who’s responsible for the Chinese head tax. However, it seems Conservatives have done the right thing and apologized for Liberal racism and bigotry.
Heres a thought. Since the money paid out to the various groups come from the Government, which of course comes from tax payers, may I suggest the following. We must lower taxes on everyone that is not from a European Country, more specifically England. After all they are the ones that commited all the wrongs. Therefore anyone with a Anglo Saxon last named should be taxed higher to pay for their wicked past. I think its only fair. Even though I fall into that category I dont mind at all. Afterall I am already a second class citizen because I dont speak French. Although this is meant to be humorous I could actually see People of the left taking this course in the future if they havent thought of it already.
Rick,
Don’t give them any ideas. Pretzel logic is the only kind that makes sense to them.
ilikelogic, not only do the people of Waco seek to commemorate the event, they want to apologize for their “shameful legacy”, as well. How many of those Texans asking for the resolution were even alive in 1917, let alone had anything to do with the lynching? An apology for something you didn’t do is no apology at all and does nothing to heal old wounds. It’s simply goveling at the feet of political correctness.
Elle: You seem to find it difficult to think beyond the individual. It’s not all about YOU, you know.
Your argument leads me to believe that you are against remembering history. Or is it that you only want to remember the history that you are not ashamed of?
The issue here is not about “guilt”, though the people of Waco may have used the term “shameful”. These are not exact equivalents.
Let me ask you this: if your child hit another child, would you not apologize to the injured child’s parents for your kid’s bad behavior? (In addition, of course, to making your child apologize himself.) The idea behind this is that the child’s bad behavior reflects on you. It doesn’t mean that YOU are guilty of the act, it means that you are making it clear that you disaprove of the act.
What the citizens of Waco plan to do is not “grovelling at the feet of political correctness”. It’s not about a BLACK man who was lynched, it’s about respecting and upholding the RULE OF LAW.
In the absence of those who performed the lynching, the people of Waco are making a public statement about their rejection of that act.
In addition, the citizens of Waco are not FORCING anyone to make an apology. If it is to be given, it will be given freely. And lastly, I don’t think any of you are in a position to tell the people of Waco what will, or will not, heal their wounds.
rick you had me worried their for a second
ilikelogic explain please how the actions of people long dead are the same as the actions of a minor child under parental control.
ilkelogic says…
Let me ask you this: if your child hit another child, would you not apologize to the injured child’s parents for your kid’s bad behavior? (In addition, of course, to making your child apologize himself.) The idea behind this is that the child’s bad behavior reflects on you. It doesn’t mean that YOU are guilty of the act, it means that you are making it clear that you disaprove of the act.
let me ask: what provoked the child to repond in the manner he did ?
greg,
Sorry to worry you. But here is another one. Whats the difference between highly educated BCL and a shit shoveler?
Nothing.
Neither one can fly a 747.
P.S. I apologize for upsetting any shit shovelers out there. At least they know their topic.
ilikelogic:
“Elle: You seem to find it difficult to think beyond the individual.”
What’s wrong with that? It was group think, the mob mentality, that got the black man lynched. It would have been better for him if they had thought of him as an individual and not part of a larger group to be villified and hated.
“Your argument leads me to believe that you are against remembering history. Or is it that you only want to remember the history that you are not ashamed of?”
Short answer: No.
And, yes, I would agree that I am responsible for my children’s behavior — until they have the maturity to make decisions for themselves. Then the responsibility for their actions rests solely on them. The men who did the lynching in Waco were adults, not children.
There was a time when illegitimate children were ostracized and shamed because of how they were conceived. They were not responsible, yet they were punished for the sins of their parents. I don’t think you would argue that they should be expected to bear that burden, because that expectation is unfair. Nor do I think anyone would reasonably argue that a son should go to jail for a crime his father committed. The rule of law is that a man bears the responsibility for the crimes he himself commits.
“And lastly, I don’t think any of you are in a position to tell the people of Waco what will, or will not, heal their wounds.”
And you are? What conceit!
And living just outside Waco myself, I think I am in a better position to decide than you. If the people of Waco want their resolution, that is their right. It will not resurrect a dead man. But it could resurrect old animosities that are better left buried. Wounds never properly heal if they are constantly picked at. Forgiving is not forgetting, ilikelogic; it’s letting go.
The example of the illegitimate child being punished for the sins of his parents is a good one – until you think of the broader consequences of changing societal attitudes. Most of them aren’t born to fictional “Murphy Brown” lifestyles.
Today, births into single motherhood are nearly as common as traditional marriages. Can one say that the relaxation of societal taboos has been a positive development when you compare the high number of these children who face the equally daunting hurdles of multi-generational poverty, poor school performance and exposure to the negative influence of the associated inner gangs, etc. that come with that lifestyle?
Are the prospects for the “normalized” modern fatherless/grandfatherless child that much better than that of the “bastard” child of the 1930’s?
I don’t think so.
Oh, I agree, Kate. They’re not stigmatized in modern society, but they suffer all the same. Lax social mores have created a generation of misery. By no means was I trivializing single motherhood. I didn’t use the example lightly, having become a single mother back when “aquaintance rape” wasn’t part of our lexicon; I was always very aware that not only did my son not have a father, but that he had been conceived in the way he had. It was not the beginning I would have chosen for him and I spent a lot of sleepless nights praying about his future; perhaps that is why I used that example.
In my opinion, the best thing we could do for society would be to stop pretending that single parent households should be an accepted norm and are equal with traditional families. They are not. Children need two parents, they need the stability and the support of the traditional family. Even with all the money “Murphy Brown” had, her son was still poor because he lacked what all children need, and that’s a loving father. The best thing that ever happened to my son and to me was meeting my husband.