Pandemic Mandates: A Libertarian Perspective

Let Them Eat Taser Wuhan Flu 73 Comments

Tim Moen

Someone who is infected with a dangerous contagious virus spread by respiration is a danger to others in their immediate vicinity. Their exhaled viral aerosols are an initiation of force against an individual who does not wish to be infected. Therefore force used to keep this person away from others is potentially justified. However, the force must deal with credible imminent danger not speculative danger.

Grab a beverage.

73 Replies to “Pandemic Mandates: A Libertarian Perspective”

  1. Another Covid Mandate Poll: https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/ “Do you agree with a City of Calgary bylaw making the vaccine passport program mandatory?” Scroll down a bit and look on the left side of the screen to find it. Currently at 61% “NO”. Interestingly Councillor Farkas was the only one to vote against it.

    2. Nenshi should be required to have a covid test, the nazal type I guess. Especially after weekends.
      Using an oral swab, who knows whoose DNA they’d find……..

    1. On another blog I frequent this debate has come up a few times. I am assured by many of the vaxxed there that this has nothing to do with fear of contracting the virus from the unvaxxed, but is, in fact, a noble gesture to keep ICU’s from being packed…

      *cough* Bullshit *cough*

      1. Perhaps the argument that the health-care system exists to service the population is how it was initially sold, and not that the population exists to service the health-care system.
        Their logic would see all sorts of high-risk behavior banned or otherwise punished, from motorcycle riding to skydiving to promiscuity to boozing, smoking and drug use.

        1. “Their logic would see all sorts of high-risk behavior banned or otherwise punished, from motorcycle riding to skydiving to promiscuity to boozing, smoking and drug use.”

          Nope. Just Wu Flu. We established that.

          You use that word, “logic”, like it means something to a Prog.

          1. “You use that word, “logic”, like it means something to a Prog.”
            Indeed I did. Very remiss of me.

        2. Already is. I am banned from getting a hernia operation by our “free medicare” until I quit smoking (or lie for a few days). I am sure that most of you actually think that this is right!

          Any of you who think so are not really anywhere near libertarian.

          1. M, I know that plastic surgery is dangerous to smokers, as smoking causes reduced circulation in the skin, so for that particular type of operation, I can see the necessity of at least having to sign an indemnity waiver, or what have you.
            That should be an option for all sorts of procedures, but that sort of thinking was before I realized that almost the entirety of the health-care community are a bunch of brainwashed state zombies.

    1. Canada is still in the “see no evil hear no evil” phase of dealing with waning vaccine effectiveness. I expect we will double and even triple down on the vaccines, much as Israel has and the UK/USA are beginning, before anyone dares to whisper that maybe, just maybe, the mass vaccination programs have been a public health mistake. And this probably won’t occur until after the 5-12 cohort have been subject to a full round of jabs.

      A fully vaccine-escaped variant would likely accelerate this process, though again, expecting that Canada would double & triple down on previously failed strategies, I presume this would just lead to another round of lockdowns, even harder than original ones. Think near-Australia levels of lockdown.

      Will anyone ever dare to break away from western orthodoxy and honestly investigate ivermectin? It seems incredibly unlikely, though I can’t entirely fathom why health-care cheapskate Canada would so readily turn its back on an off-patent drug that can be widely distributed quickly, other than chalking it up to slavishly following the Big Pharma-captured USA’s lead in this.

      Gonna get worse, probably MUCH worse, before we turn a corner.

      2. There is no corner to turn. We’re on a plateau and the precipice is all around us. The lemmings are already on their way over it.

    2. scar, you are correct. It is amazing that Canadians and other thinking people are unable to see that, no matter how much “science” is shoved up their collective noses they are unable to figure that out. The whu who flu was, is, and continues to be about people control, not a God Damned thing else.

    3. By definition it most certainly is not a vaccine. It’s no more effective than taking chicken soup during a cold. It may work, but then again, it may not. Quick, let’s hamstring the global economy with junk science.

  4. If you’re unvaxxed and unaware that you’re infected, how can it possibly be that your exhalations are an “initiation of force” against someone else? In every other discussion of force initiation in a libertarian framework, it’s presumed that the “violent actor” has intentionality (mens rea). Are the vaxxed who are also infected and unaware guilty of this same use of force against the unvaxxed or their fellow vaxxed? Really?

    I’m a libertarian, but it seems that sloppy thinking dominates most of these discussions.

      1. Francisco: I’ve been running into this kind of thinking from “libertarians” (and people who are straw-manning libertarians) all over the ‘Net, thus I’m riffing on that unfortunate fact. I’m experiencing burnout from all of the moral and ethical posturing and hand-wringing from all sides, which is why I didn’t (and probably won’t) read the article in this instance, but I get your point.

      2. He appears to be imprecise in his language. Had he included “knowingly” infected, then that makes a little more sense. Though those on the left have now decided that a person knowingly infected with HIV having unprotected sex with an uninformed partner is no longer a crime, so really they have no leg to stand on here.

  5. In my small town there is only one place to socialize, the local community centre. A few days ago a sign went up stating only those with the vaccine passport can enter the building. The result is that now everyone in town knows who is vaxxed and unvaxxed. The result has been awful. There is a minority of the vaxxed who have now begun a campaign to totally ostracize the unvaxxed. They are going to any business where there are unvaxxed employees demanding they be fired. They are harassing anyone at the school who is unvaxxed. They are trying to get children of unvaxxed banned from using the school buses. As an unvaxxed person yesterday I actually had a man who I have spoken to daily at the post office for years take a huge step back and pull on his mask, outdoors, to avoid being near us. His wife quite literally crossed the street to avoid us. Families and friendships have been torn about because the vaxxed are requiring the unvaxxed be disinvited from family and friend events.

    1. And this is always where the vile vax passports was going to lead. The unvaxed are the UnClean and must be Cast Out. Soon they will be subject to a daily Two Minutes Hate.

    2. Just awful. Nazi Germany for sure. Perhaps folks in your town should be reminded of this. Most importantly, vax or not is not relevant to the spread, even though the Liberal government — and those insisting on vax passports keep implying this.

      2. And you forget how smokers are reviled as well. If the theory of second hand smoke were true, all boomers, spending hours in smoke-filled bars in our youth, and offspring would be dead and no one would be living until 98.

        You gen X and Y’s all thought this was cool at school to hate us. It was step one.

        Start with one issue and all the rest of Marxist ideology will follow, having proved successful.

    3. Yet those same people would be appalled and outraged if you compared their mindset to those of the Salem witch trials, Germany in ww2, Canada’s Japanese internment and every other purge and persecution of “undesirables”. Where do they think it started? It started with governments use of fear, propaganda, normalization of discrimination, promoting bigotry, etc.

      Most people have no idea how easy they are to manipulate. Blind to the power of psych-ops. Ignorant of history.

      “Psychological operations (PSYOP) are operations to convey selected information and indicators to audiences to influence their emotions, motives, and objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals.”

    4. Just yesterday a friend and I talked about starting up a group for the unvaccinated people and families in town. Our town has a higher than average unvaccinated rate but some people are feeling very isolated. Starting a group can provide social support and a safe place to vent concerns and anger.

      Movie night, potluck dinners, whatever is fun and inclusive. I have a simple yet adequate home gym setup to share with those who are forbidden from going to the gym.

    5. Justin Burch:

      This is TRAGIC. No other word.
      And not an unintended consequence.
      This is part of the plan. Marxist to the core.

      Having lived in Vancouver for 42 year I often wax romantic about returning to the kind of small town life I lived in my early formative years in Atlantic Canada.

      Your comment has killed this sentiment stone cold dead.

    6. Just what the elites want.
      They sow division, hate, fear and mistrust.
      You can only find truth, comfort, solace and security from the State,

  7. Good article. Certainly worth the read for those who lament the demise of our founding principles of self-reliance.
    I would add three conditions are necessary to justify state power: credible necessity, with wide approval and temporary only.

    Is this the case? Hmmm. Two gems from Moen:

    “If the vaccine is 100% effective at protecting me but (as the CDC has indicated) allows me to carry a viral load my nasal passages and allows me to spread it to others then I am a threat to the unvaccinated and not the vaccinated. Therefore, the unvaccinated have the right to use defensive force against me (if they can show evidence that I am presently contagious) and the vaccinated do not have the right to use force against me because, even contagious, I am not a threat to them.”

    “The government would have us believe that only they can appropriately assess and manage risk, but they have no skin in the game. They do not pay the price for getting it wrong. Individuals taking personal responsibility do pay the price for their mistakes..”

  8. Here’s the central point, imo :

    “The argument mandate opponents should be making is that using violence against peaceful people who aren’t currently contagious is immoral.”

    Because the vaccines do not prevent transmission or infection, using vaccination status is both illogical and immoral. The vaccinated and unvaccinated can be a “typhoid Mary”. The only way to be sure if a person is sick and contagious is through testing. This would require a massive rapid testing regime. If politicians are creating rules based solely on vaccination status then it’s entirelyabout harrassment and coercion, not public health.

    The other option, of course, is to let people manage their own level of risk. The problem with that is hospital capacity, which is an absolute embarrassment in all of Canada. Canada has less regular and icu hospital beds that all of our peers. That flaw is 100% on our politicians. Rationing and failure to expand with population growth has been deliberate policies. Instead of blaming people who get sick, we should demand accountability from the politicians.

    1. That’s a result of Universal Healthcare. Realistically, if EVERYBODY gets access to healthcare, why then does anybody need a Healthcare card? What is the primary issue here, money or control, or both?

  9. The proper role of government is to protect our right to choose what kind of life we want to live.

    Gold. Great essay. A lot to wade through but worth every word.

  10. Oh, it’s fun to read the local paper and see the townsfolk so itchy to get out the torches and pitchforks.

    Fucking Nazis to the core, one and all.

    Nobody beats Canadians, particularly Liberals, at virtue signalling. Nobody.

    So let me indulge.

    Having been somewhat successful financially, I’ve made a point of donating.

    Sports teams of all kinds, organizations of all kinds, xmas funds, foreign children, tuition for the deserving, etc.

    No more. No donations.No volunteering. No participation.

    Fuck Canada.

    Fuck Canadians.

    One and all.

    Being canadian is a disease.

    1. That’s one form of “going Galt”. Stop spending, stop donating, etc.

      Here’s another thought about “going Galt” that applies today:

      “”Going Galt” means shrugging off unearned guilt, refusing to support your own destroyers, refusing to give them what Ayn Rand termed “the sanction of the victim.” It means taking the moral high ground by explicitly rejecting as evil the premise of “self-sacrifice” that they sell to you as a virtue— in fact “self-sacrifice” is an invitation to suicide.”
      https://www.atlassociety.org/post/going-galt

      I doubt even Ayn Rand herself could have imagined governments forcing all citizens to inject the deadliest vaccine in human history into their body for a disease with a 99.997% to 99.4% recovery rate (for healthy people under 65).

    2. That’s where I am. Furthermore if they think that I will just forget and be friends and donate again in future they have another thing coming. Their treatment of me is something I will not ever forget or forgive.

      1. We have a local society we began donating to last year. They are having a fundraiser in October that sounds like a lot of fun. Only the vaxxed (must show proof) will be allowed to attend. I guess they don’t need our money that badly, do they?

    3. Thank you Poor Canada for writing as I’ve been disgusted for years at the virtue signalling of Canadians. My son didn’t have the fight in him to resist the vaccine coercion at UBC (daily rapid testing, waiting 40 minutes or so in line, painful swabs) so I’m f$$8bg pissed at this medical tyranny and I will never donate to another organization again unless they specifically say they are against the vaccine mandates.

    4. So with you on that. It’s my observation that Canada is a nation of sheep who will offer themselves up for a righteous gov’t shearing at any given time while possessing an inner nazi bubbling at the surface just waiting to be unleashed.
      Especially in my “Liberalville” neighbourhood where due to market forces converted almost overnight what was once a rural setting and where the few folks that were here just did their own thing into a bastion of gov’t teat suckers and pensioned off busy bodies with too much time on their hands – where nailing two boards together has neighbours peeking through their windows wondering whether a permit is needed and squawking to town council how outdoor fires at night with the family are a menace.
      35 years and it’s finally to come to me perusing real estate properties up North.

    5. You had better decide to do something with your ‘wealth, because the socialists will certainly do it for you if you don’t, on your behalf, of course.

  11. Some people suffer from agoraphobia of thought and personal responsability. Shepherds exist to move these sheep to their destiny.

  12. I think this is the most important point in the artivle:
    “Note that vaccination status doesn’t matter one way or the other. If you are vaccinated yet are still contagious you may be forcibly confined, if you are unvaccinated and not contagious then you may NOT be forcibly confined. ”
    Most Canadians are under the impression that if you are unvaccinated, you are more likely spread the virus. Categorically untrue. These are not sterilizing vaccines. Therefore, there’s no additional protection afforded by vax passports. In this past election, the Liberal government deliberately took advantage of people’s naivety. Liberals are for sure the new Nazi’s.

    1. “Most Canadians are under the impression that if you are unvaccinated, you are more likely spread the virus. Categorically untrue. These are not sterilizing vaccines. Therefore, there’s no additional protection afforded by vax passports.”

      That’s not entirely accurate. Based on current state of knowledge, the truth is that it’s not unequivocal one way or another: vaccination doesn’t offer 100% protection against transmission, and also, vaccination doesn’t offer 0% protection against transmission either. Current data are mixed, but suggest on balance that:

      (1) vaccines can curb transmission to a non–negligible degree, and also
      (2) the actual degree (in itself a range rather than a precise point estimate) of transmission protection is uncertain, and also
      (3) the degree of transmission protection lasts for some time, and also
      (4) the degree of transmission protection likely wanes over time, and also
      (5) the extent and velocity by which transmission protection may wane over time, among different population sub-groups (e.g., seniors vs. young adults, etc.), are uncertain.

      Given all this, it’s very likely that, in fact, vax passports do offer potentially substantial but certainly a non-zero degree of additional protection, at least for a time. They are still a bad idea, but not because they have no epidemiological impact. Rather, I think their immediate and long-term social costs significantly outweigh their short-term public health benefits.

  13. Slower please! viz., more grab-a-beverage posts.
    My first reaction was: being steeped in libertarian philosophy for over 40 years, I’ll find a couple inaccuracies in this and demo my phil-cred.

    Wrong! This piece does not contain a single error in my view. Nothing to add from this corner.
    It is – E X C E L L E N T. Intellectually exhilirating.
    It has alarmed me in recent years to encounter so many smart people I respect who have succumbed to libertarian-bashing. The Z Man, for just one example. Even the estimable Kathy Shaidle (RIP) did so on numerous occasions.

    1. I too have made a very long-term study of libertarian philosophy, and I am in fact a libertarian.
      Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that “you can’t get there from here.” Our society places infinitely more value on the illusion of security/safety than the reality of freedom, and as long as that is the case, well, you can’t get there from here. Most people are literally terrified of freedom and what it entails.

      1. BINGO.
        Say the word freedom to nearly anyone today and get a look that silently says “crackpot”.
        You are absolutely right. You can’t there from here.
        In my cheerier hours I am wont to mutter to myself that when the collapse comes they’ll see the light and freedom will reign again.
        Um, that is, in my cheerier minutes.
        But that won’t happen.

  14. Text book libertarianism – good stuff, although I also agree that Moen should have clarified the initiation of force from people who were “knowingly” infected.

    What if everyone was vaccinated and there were no more mandates and then the ICUs filled up with the next variant and what then? – mandates for the 4th, 12th, 36th, booster? Would the medical “profession” finally awaken and initiate health care practices (out-patient protocols) that wasn’t limited to vaccines with declining usefulness and hammers from the Stalinists? I am convinced that the push for high rates of vaccination, particularly those with natural immunity and kids is to bury the reality of natural immunity being far superior to the vaccines.

  15. OK, so I read the entire article. The fly in the ointment? He’s assuming being approached with a rational argument. How many of you who have encountered one of these idiots, whether in person, online, over the phone, where ever, have been presented with a logical, point-by-point discussion of the issue?

    For me, it’s been zero. Absolutely none. You can’t logic a Prog.

    1. The old adage that you can’t reason someone out a position that he wasn’t reasoned into applies.
      This adage applies, to one degree or another, clear across the political spectrum, from authoritarian to libertarian, from left to right, and all points in between.

        1. Indeed.
          Libertarians don’t use terror tactics, but the progs say we do, because they’re pre-terrorized. The progs have no issue terrorizing themselves in order to justify terrorizing others. Every accusation they make is in reality a confession, they are only capable of projection, etc.

    2. Dumb Biker (but you’re not!).

      Jeebus.
      A guy I met while picking up my motorcycle at the shop Tuesday used the phrase “covid bullshit”. LOL, I thought I had an ally. NOT! When I joked about writing BC’s PHO Bonnie Henry and before I even got to the whatabout, he exclaimed, “No..no..NO. She saved our ass. “
      Mary, mother of gawd I was speechless. People who know me know that is is a very rare event.

      Love your “you can’t logic a prog”. I’m stealing that.

      1. Thx!

        Too bad, we need more allies. I emailed my MLA 2 weeks ago, the night that lockdowns were announced here in Albertistan. Still haven’t received the courtesy of a response. Must have pissed him off some. In the midst of a 4 page riot act for our CPC MP after the wunnerful showing federally. Want to make sure it’s just right & piss her off some, too.

        Steal away, use it far & wide. It’s actually an original.

  17. It all depends on what is dangerous and providing proof that you are not dangerous to anyone who asks. This is not a free society.

  19. In order to achieve X, we must severely tighten state regulations on almost everybody, and subject minority Y to brutally authoritarian and discriminatory policies.

    In the USSR, X was to ensure the proletariat got their fair share, and Y was the bourgeoisie.
    In Mao’s China, it was the same as the USSR.
    In the National Socialists of 1930s Germany, X was a secure and prosperous economy, Y was the Jews, and any other group they could get away with…the homos, the retards, etc.
    In the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia, X was the agrarian farmers, Y was the intelligentsia.

    Now, X is a viable health care system, Y is the unvaxxed.

    The story remains the same, only the names have changed.

      1. That’s right, and as a people, we can no longer discriminate between movies and reality, blindly following what our little screens say, without the least hint of self-awareness.

    1. Those who would kill millions will gladly use some name that a kid made up as a propaganda tool. But they put the name in scare quotes, so it’s not really propaganda!!! the progs such as yourself cry.
      Nobody was forced to go to the event, but you think people should be forced to stay away, because “safety.”
      You make me sick to my stomach, with your fear-mongering BS, trying to scare people away from freedom of any kind.
      You pretend to be concerned for people, while you advocate cracking down on them with goons, for their own good, of course.
      Fuck you, Ted.

      1. “Nobody was forced to go to the event, but you think people should be forced to stay away, because “safety.””

        I don’t care about the party itself — if you want to gather with others for the express purpose of trying to contract COVID from each other in order to develop natural immunity, go for it.

        I’m just wondering what self-avowed libertarians think about people going out of their way to intentionally get COVID, successfully getting it, overshooting the presumable mark of “a couple of days at home with mild flu-like symptoms”, and ending up occupying an ICU bed and being cared for around the clock by already burned out medical professionals within an already stretched healthcare system.

        As I understand it, libertarianism views personal responsibility as inseparable from personal freedom. So, what personal responsibility if any do these COVID party attendees now in an Edmonton ICU hold?

        1. Again, you prove your idiocy. Nobody went out to get covid, except for the journos you put trust in.
          There was no covid party, you asshole, and even if there was, so what?

          “As I understand it, libertarianism views personal responsibility as inseparable from personal freedom. So, what personal responsibility if any do these COVID party attendees now in an Edmonton ICU hold”
          1st of all, the party as described never happened, and in order to prove it did, you need a court. Maybe a proof in a court of culpability, with actual empirical evidence?? Even then, those who are scared get to stay home, not those who are not. You continue to project your evil on those who are innocent.
          Every single time, you come out against personal freedom, and for the state, just like your standard mass-murderer.
          Fuck you, Ted.

    2. I noticed they never gave the actual number of the cases of people who went to the “covid party” and then were hospitalized. It also looks like no one wanted to go on record by name from the hospital. After a bunch of media organizations recently got completely played about an Oklahoma hospital getting swamped by ivermectin overdose patients…I think I’ll take this story about a covid party with a grain of salt.

      Opinion: Bogus Oklahoma ivermectin story was just too good to check
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/09/bogus-oklahoma-ivermectin-story-was-just-too-good-check/

      “The Hill, the New York Daily News, the Guardian, Rolling Stone, MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow and DailyMail.com bit hard. Here’s how Rolling Stone headlined its follow-up on Sept. 3: “Gunshot Victims Left Waiting as Horse Dewormer Overdoses Overwhelm Oklahoma Hospitals, Doctor Says.”

    3. In Salem circa 1692,  the story would have been Goodwife Glover heard from Goodwife Osbourne that Goodwife Nurse had been seen heading into the forest after dark to cavort with a coven of witches and other dark forces of evil. There was dancing and drinking of spirits. Soon after a strange illness afflicted several good and holy townspeople. People saw that Goody Nurse had been seen near the afflicted and they believe she had given them the evil eye.

  21. The authoritarianism that lives within so many Canadians is fertilized by socialized medicine, watered by socialized education and nurtured by the State, but specifically Libranos and fuckholes like Juthtin the Coward.

  22. The truth may slip out soon, for the first time I noted a news story talked about how “the unvaccinated and partially vaccinated” were a major component of hospital admissions. Now the “partially vaccinated” is really a reference to those who are recently vaccinated (in most cases) and haven’t had the 6-8 weeks required to get a second shot.

    This confirmed my suspicion that earlier, using the 14-day lag evasion, they were hiding the newly vaccinated by listing them as unvaccinated. This is not yet a proof but this was the trend I was suggesting might emerge when new vaccinations slowed down, and there are fewer so recent that they can be hidden that way, so now they have to be identified as partially vaccinated. What are the real percentages? To what extent are the unvaccinated being blamed for something entirely different, the side effects of vaccination? I would keep a close eye on this trend and any further attempts to obfuscate by moving goalposts.

  23. The Libertarian approach may be too kind.
    Although I cannot fault the logic.
    Consider that the individual is real,has real points of view and values.
    The collective,society, is a mutual fiction.
    Every single individual said to make up that society,will give you a different view of all its,societies,parts and functions.
    Same with The State.
    Complete work of fiction which has all the power we give it.

    So when The State is trying to persuade you to commit an act,these are individuals claiming to act in the name of a fiction.
    They are just annoying.

    However,once The State mandates taking a potion,they have moved from persuasion to open coercion.
    They are now threatening violence.
    As I consider the Government Goo to be more dangerous to my health,than the dread Covid itself,I now see the individuals acting in the name of their fiction,The State, as threatening me with bodily harm and death.
    I invoke self defence.
    Your call comrade.

    As for the mandate itself,I see the death of civil society inherent in the fact these fools would even go there.
    The consent of the citizens is all the power they have.
    Mine is withdrawn.
    These fools and bandits,declared an emergency,then failed to demonstrate any competence,any ability to lead and now lack evidence of even that emergency.

    Issuing these mandates,is to broadcast their utter failure.
    They should be resigning enmass,not attempting to bend citizens to their will by force.

    After the last 18 months of incompetence,arrogance and rampant stupidity,these idiots have no authority to mandate anything.
    Now they declare war.
    They proudly announce their intention to assault us,with the Deadly Government Goo.

    That is how I see it and the evidence points more toward my position every day.
    The Dread Covid offers the individual much less hazard and risk of death,than the help of our fear maddened parasites.

    Given a rational choice,I will take the virus,rather than risk the deadly “help” of serial liars and thieves.
    After decades of theft,incompetence and destruction,now they insist I MUST trust them..
    Good Luck with that.

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