Bad Knees?

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A personal question for the SDA hive mind.

My mother(81 years old) just found out via x-rays that she has no cartilage left in either of her knees. Other than that the doctors say she is in good health. They are recommending knee surgery but it will be roughly two years before she will even see a surgeon for a consult. The Canadian medical system at it’s finest.

I’ve just started looking into this and would appreciate any knowledge or experience anyone has on the subject. I’m interested in both surgical and non surgical interventions.

81 Replies to “Bad Knees?”

  1. Where r u? A friend of a friend had the same wait time story in Calgary and had his knees done in red deer. I think it was about 6 months wait. It results in lengthy drives for the follow up check ups which is the only downside mentioned

  3. An option, depending on financial circumstances: book private surgery at your cost in another province. You (if you claim your mother as a dependent) or your mother can claim it on taxes .

    2. I agree – this is a ‘loophole’ which lets you pay for private care so long
      as it is NOT being done in your OWN province. e.g. I live in BC and had my hip replaced privately in Calgary ($28,000 worth every penny).

      1. I should say that this was with no wait times – my BC doctor helped with all x rays and blood and paper work, I paid for an MRI then we sent it all off to Surgical Solutions in Calgary. I never did see a specialist in BC. We were very happy with the treatment.
        As JAWZE says, we claimed it all on tax (hotels, gas etc plus medical
        costs) and got a big tax refund for medical expenses – the first time
        ever!

        2. Maggie – we’re talking roughly 40 years ago, but Mum (living in small town BC) need cataract surgery but her opthalmologist (some 50 miles from her home) wasn’t willing to schedule her. Dad was in hospital, and Mum needed to be able to drive to visit him. So I went to the Gimble clinic to sort out options. The clinic was great; knew what would be covered by BC health and what would be the out-of-pocket costs. They even organized the appointments and surgery around her flight schedule to as to minimize her time away from Dad.
          The surgery went well, and Mum was able to drive to the hospital to be with Dad until the end.

      2. Alberta folks can go to the Cambie Clinic in Vancouver for a similar deal. Several years ago, my wife needed cartilage surgery in Calgary. The wait time was about a year and a half. So I contacted some smaller centers in Alberta and she was accepted in Lethbridge in just a few weeks. I also heard Banff has a good clinic because of ski accidents. Worth checking there.

      3. Why bother? My hip was replaced by an awesome UBC-educated surgeon in BC. The specialist doctor took a couple of months to be seen.

        My hip works perfectly! Have a good time wasting your $$$ on private care in another province. Impatience is costly.

        Maybe, you should stop voting for people who do not want private health care.

  4. A couple years ago, Buffalo, NY was offering knee replacements for $25,000 and taking the $CDN at par. For surgery, a border town is your best and only real option AFAIK. The other benefit is a much more competent job. Actual good surgeons, not those not good enough to work in the US.

    1. On that note, I would advise taking mom to a capable doctor across the border in the U.S. for a consult. At least that would solve the problem of the two year delay.

      1. Find a better GP with good friends. My GP always refers me to awesome specialists, never with 2-year wait times.

  6. Had a couple family members get knee replacements (ages 78 and 79). The big thing is staying on them to do their therapy exercises afterwards. The procedure is routine these days and rather quick. Age is not a factor. They’ll be on crutches or using a walker for about 3 weeks until the swelling goes down. After that you’ll end up trying to get them to be more careful, because the increased mobility will entice them to do things they shouldn’t.

    1. My had both @74 about 4 months apart. Doing the PT is critical. She is 84 now and still ambles around. They do have synovial fluid also. I worked with an amigo who had that procedure and was thrilled. The choice is about surgery and money.

  7. My friend recently had knee replacement surgery, she is in her seventies, she told me that “IF she had been told how painful it was she would not of had the surgery”. She didn’t get up and walk for weeks, instead of the next day and as a widow many of us walked her dog several times a day. This went on well over six weeks until many of us said enough-get off your-arse girl. A male neighbor in his 50s had knee replacement surgery, was out walking the next day and went to physio right away. He had no issues and was in very little pain. How is her pain threshold?

  8. Check out “knees over toes guy” on YouTube. Not sure his exercises would apply for no cartilage, but might be worth checking out. I recall him saying his senior mom benefited.

    1. If you have a local shop offering the GLA:D (Good Life with Osteoarthritis in Denmark) Canada program, check it out. All about managing the situation and avoiding surgery

  11. If you can afford it … get your mom to Walnut Creek, CA and get a consult with Dr. Toma.
    https://www.goldenstateortho.com/doctor/toma-louay-md/

    He replaced one of my hips … and will do the other one in the not too distant future. I had my hip sawed-off at 9:00am … and I was walking the hospital corridors by 1:30pm … I was released from the hospital the next day. He uses the anterior (almost arthroscopic) method … no muscle cutting … specialized surgical tables with lasers aligning hips … you know … all that fancy medical equipment that Obamakkare claimed was running up American medical costs and making greedy insurance companies rich … or something. Gawd I hate stupid people/voters.

    I’m sure he is a maestro with knees as well. I asked him how many hips he had done (I didn’t want a Rookie sawing off my femur) … he said he’d replaced at least 12,000 hips … yeah … at least 600/year.

  12. Knee replacement. Nothing else I know of will do anything if the cartilage is gone. There are currently no cartilage-replacement therapies that work, that I know of. Maybe somebody else has heard of something new.

    Consider driving to Buffalo for treatment, or you will wait forever. Mayo Clinic is good too.

    My -strong- advice, do one knee at a time. She’ll be up and walking the next morning, and after a couple months ready to have the other one done. It sucks, but that’s the best way.

    The only case I saw where they did both at once, the fool never walked again after they got out of the hospital, even though they could. I know they could because I’m the one who made them walk the next morning, and every day of their rehab time in the hospital. I got in big trouble for that, but they walked.

  13. Both my knees suffered from arthritis at differing times over two years. My doctor (an ex-olympian) recommended an injection that consisted of a gel like substance that I was told was derived from rooster combs. He indicated that it should give me relief for at least 6 months…that was 6 years ago and counting. The only after effect was that I got a Baker’s cyst on the back of one knee after about 4 years…but it subsided on its own. The first injection was day surgery at City hospital, the second was done in his office. I paid for the injection material.. ~$300/knee

    1. I believe grant is referring to Synvisc. My wife has had both knees replaced, but before she went that route she got Synvisc injections which provided almost complete relief from the pain and lasted between six months to a year. Given your mom’s age, this might be the better option

  14. There is an injection she can get. Durolane or hyaluronic acid. It costs several hundred dollars ($500 last I checked) per injection. It is your bodies natural lubricant. But I do not know if it will be effective if there is no cartilage left.

    It did wonders for my hips. Combined with physio I went from taking 300 MG of diclofenac (max is 100 mg per day) to nothing.

  15. Just take her to emergency, saying that she had a fall. She will get surgery faster if your hospital admits her.

  16. Last time I checked the Mayo will replace a knee for around $30,000 USD a piece. Probably get in a week or so. As far as a treatment, sorry not sure.

  17. While deciding options, strongly consider a disciplined Keto or better yet Carnivore diet to reduce whole body and site specific inflammation. This will help with pain, strength , energy and outlook in advance and in recovery from any future procedures. Obviously any possibly existing conditions/ prescriptions should be monitored as her diet changes, most of which should be Happy changes.
    Dr Shawn Baker is an Orthopedic surgeon who is a great advocate of similar dietary changes well before any joint replacement surgeries.
    Prayer for your Mother

    1. Agree with this: high protein and fresh veg/fruit diets are the best!
      Lots of older people loose their appetite triggers, so tend not to prepare meals on time. The best gifts for grandparents are cooked yummy meals that can be frozen.

  19. Well, its not going to be an easy road Francisco. As noted above, if one has assets, the work can get done much quicker in an American facility. The procedures, and the followups, can also be treated as medi-vacations if you choose a southern state to get them done.
    That said, if you choose to get it done at home, there are pitfalls to the Canadian system.
    Wait times could be a year or so.
    Your mom’s health can also be a factor. If she has other health conditions, they *may* impact the knee procedures. My neighbour has been on the wait list, and in the course of events, preparation tests have revealed possible intestinal issues to resolve, further tests required to diagnose whether its colitis, diverticulitis, cancer……..so that further delays her future knee surgery. She gets around with a walker for now, but its troublesome. She’s 71.
    I know several people that have had their knees done. Some people are literally up and running the next day, others go through the first month of hell, others still have minor trouble 6 months later, but they were all better off getting it done, mobility vastly improved, and those that still had discomfort months later, said it was better than they were before.
    You could consider a powered scooter for her to get around in the meantime, but they’ll set you back from 3k to 10k, and, if she gets too dependent on it, wont get out of it, wont exercise, and its all downhill from there.
    At 81, its a tough call, but if she’s got assets to get it done sooner, then she should do it. Can’t take it with her, and everyday is valuable.

  21. First question is “can she still walk?”. Anyone aged 80 or over getting an MRI or X-ray is going to find the effects of aging. If it was me and I was mobile I would resume my life before I got the bad news from the doctor. Maybe use a knee brace.

  22. Thanks for this. My wife is going to need both knees done. She has her first consult with the osteo surgeon on Friday. Our GP tells her to get on the list asap as the wait times are very long as you note..

    The ‘go to the US’ commenters got me thinking.

    I looked online and this website https://www.kneereplacementcost.com/
    Shows the cost of a total knee replacement in the US runs $15kUSD to $70kUSD per knee, without complications. Add 30% because our government has our dollar in a race to the bottom.

  23. At 81, she could live another 20 years. If the money can be found get the surgery done in the US and pay for it.

    1. I’m 67 with bone on bone osteoarthritis (the army took all the cartilage out 50 years ago). I’m a field geologist working in Nevada. Cortisone shots work for 6-8 weeks but the effect diminishes over time. Glucosamine/ chondritin has been helpful. I find a knee brace very useful in rough ground. Bulgarian squats and keep walking would be final advice. I hope she gets the knees done sooner rather than later. I’ve been waiting over a year.

  24. Look at all these fantastic answers in a little over 1.5 hours. SDA IS THE BEST.

    My 94yo father had both knees replaced at the same time at Jefferson hospital in Philadelphia about 15 years ago. I’m making dinner for him and my mother in another couple hours, and I will find out more information and reply back accordingly with any relevant info.

  25. The flight may be a little long for your Mom but Latvia may be an option. An acquaintance had a hip replacement there in July and can’t say enough good things about it. The glory of the whole process is that it was done within six weeks…..not two years.

    Good luck to your Mom.

    https://www.nordorthopaedics.com/en/

  28. With no cartilage, she is definitely looking at a surgical intervention – most likely a full replacement. It’s a painful surgery but pretty routine. If you can afford it I would definitely get an opinion from a US-based surgeon. Advanced orthopedics in Tulsa Oklahoma is fantastic. Maybe a little far for you. You are probably looking circa $US25K to have it done here. Can more than likely have it done before Christmas.

  29. I worked in med devices, specifically joint replacement.

    If it’s bone-on-bone, with no functioning cartilage, then there is no alternative to surgery. Cartilage doesn’t come back. The constant inflammation with bone-on-bone movements will also have a negative impact on general health.

    You may want to look at U.S., India, or the Pacific Rim and pay out of pocket. Orthopedic medical tourism is a thing. When Cuba collapses, I expect it to become a medal tourism hot spot.

      1. These don’t really regenerate cartilage like people might imagine. They move or graft cartilage from one place to another. They are also used for relatively small areas of damage where most cartilage is undamaged, but where the damage will result in uneven loading causing more damage. These techniques cannot typically be used for major joint wear and damage.

      1. Cuba is a dump now.

        It used to be great. My relatives used to vacation there before the revolution.

        Once it collapses, money is going to pour into it to rebuild.

    4. No!!! Canada pays for this on medicare!!! And YOU paid already for my surgery. Thank you. I guess that I already paid for other people already, so your turn. Did any of vote for ANY of the pay forward systems that we have? OAS, Guaranteed income, medicare, all the child benefits, all welfare benefits, fancy hotels and food/extra stuff illegal for immigrants, most of whom we do not want, costs for servicing illegal border-crossers.

  31. My 70+ wife in Ontario just had a knee replacement. A total success – she healed freakiskly quickly and two months later has zeoro after-effects.

    For five years or so she had PRP treatments that worked quite well. About $500 a shot, about twice a year.

    Good luck.

  32. Despite the claims that cartilage doesn’t come back, it would be worth starting her on a daily regimen of bone broth. I make a large batch once a week, and there’s nothing to it. With the right bones (including chicken feet) you can get a lot of collagen into her system, and while probably not a long-term solution its worth trying.
    The best book I have on it is “Nourishing Broth” by Sally Fallon Morell.
    That said, my father had a knee replacement 18 or 20 years ago, and it went flawlessly. The knee went so well that he followed up with a hip replacement. That was a disaster.

  33. A fellow I worked with was in the same situation. They had told him 20 months and then along came the Wuhan flu BS and he was looking at double that time. He had it done in Mexico. $4500 USD per knee. He’s as happy as a Liberal rolling in tax-dollars.

  34. One other option to consider, once you have expert advice on the best course of action, is overseas surgery centers. Several countries have facilities that specialize in surgical care for expatriate patients, and their costs are a fraction of what you would pay in the USA. Costa Rica is one place to consider, but there are many others with top-notch surgeons and much lower fees.

    If you do consider going this route, just be sure that you do some very thorough due-diligence to make sure you are really getting the best.

  35. After years of cortisone injections my wife had both done about 8 months apart. Best decision ever. She’s 68 and now walks about 3 miles 4X a week for exercise. Excellent results but you have to get walking asap and do the exercises – both her brother and sister have had both done, didn’t do the work, and both walk like penguins. It hurts but do it anyway – essentially you’re trying to bend your knee back as far as possible to crush the scar tissue against your kneecap. The further you bend it, the better your mobility.
    You’ll need a walker, a booster seat for the toilet (with handles if possible). A stationary bike might not be essential but is a great help.

  36. Just another comment regarding major surgery for your Mom…. Although a lot of “experts” will tell you that it is a myth, post-operative cognitive decline is a very real thing, especially for seniors who are beginning to show signs of mental decline from the natural aging process. My own mother, had two major surgeries in her 90’s, and she definitely lost mental capacity that only slightly recovered after each of those procedures. Another family friend, also in his 90’s was never the same mentally after open-heart surgery (yes there was some mental recovery, but the difference even a couple years later was quite noticeable).

    This is not to put you off of surgical intervention for your Mom, just something to be aware of and consider as part of the pros and cons of going forward. If Mom is still mentally sharp, the risks aren’t as serious.

    1. Agreed.

      It seems that our systems become increasingly delicate with age. Major joint surgery is pretty traumatic and can definitely throw peoples systems out of order. I think it really depends on the individual activity and health levels. I know 70-80 year olds who have done very well with joint replacement, and others who have not. The older you get, and the less active you are, the more risk there is.

      Be careful.

  37. My dad consulted his orthopedic doctor for the same problem, at 90. His reply: “ I could give you 2 new knees, and possibly 2 strokes.”

    And, my mother had surgery in her late 80’s, which, for some unknown reason, left her in fatigue and declining health from that day forward, although the surgery was “ successful “ in fixing her specific problem.

    You should see if you can find an online support group, and see what they are saying about replacements for 80 year olds. Everyone I know who has had replacements said post-op physical therapy is very necessary, and can be painful.

    Find a surgeon who has done a lot of replacements on 80 year old, and ask what the experience is of, say 70% of those patients.

    Voltaren gel ( otc ) helps with the pain, if your mother can tolerate it. (Ask her doctor.)

  38. My daughter’s dressage/hunters coach had knee replacement surgery here in BC a few years back, and recovery was swift with physio. One acquaintance of mine is about to do some meniscus surgery next week, also in BC. It did not take too long to book. MRI done privately. One of my neighbours had two hip replacement and she’s been back at walking the trail as if nothing had happened. All these people are way north of 60… now: my brother is an orthopedic surgeon (specialized in shoulders) but has done plenty of replacements. I’ve seen videos of his surgeries. It’s a lot more akin to auto mechanics than medicine…

    1. Videos of surgeries… Ahhh, that brings back a memory from the 1960’s. Oregon Public Broadcasting, back in those days long before Woke was a thing, had a series that showed video of several significant surgical procedures, even including open heart surgery. One episode was a hip replacement, where the cavity to fit the prosthetic into the femur was formed using a series of rasps (of increasing size) quite literally pounded into the femur with a hammer, then extracted to move up to the next larger size. It was, for lack of a better term, a brutal procedure, and the surgeon had to put rather a lot of physical effort into the job.

      Times have changed a lot since then, but that memory will stick forever.

  40. Do not medicalize your Mum. Its a one-way rail to pills and despair.

    Her knees will never recover. To spend government debt trying to ‘fix’ them is futile.

    Instead, teach her about her prosthetics early on. The operation of the wheelchair or the walker is best taught before the patient’s muscles have atrophied, and her bones have softened.

    Her cardio vascular and skeletal fitness will be of the utmost importance going forward.

    1. My wife had 2 knees and a hip done in her forties and has lived 20 years with no problems in those joints. She’s no athlete but the joints have not failed. She has arthritis everywhere else but she can walk.

  41. There is an excellent surgeon in Medicine Hat by the name of Dr. Chukwunyerenwa. He did one of my husbands knees and my sister hip replacement last year. They are both in their 70’s. Great results and the wait time for them was weeks not years. The city has an really nice fairly new hospital and the care was first rate. My husband had his first knee done in Montreal (we live near Calgary) for a cost of $30,000. The results from this doctor was just as good. You can find his office number from google and call them directly.
    I wish your Mother all the best

  42. DMSO …do not know if it will work but lots of articles on a substack – https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/archive (aka the fogetten side of medicine ). Has 4 or 5 articles on it. And yes you can buy it in canada – dsmo canda or something like that in Ottawa. We are trialing it ourselves on another matter …R.

  43. My aunt got joint surgeries well into her eighties ( she keeps getting hit by cars) . They kept her mobile. I would consider seeking a doctor in the US for the surgery though. Two years is too damn long.
    Ps : if you get a good one please let me know. I need a new knee but I am far down the wait list as I can still walk

  44. I got mine done in Panama. First class American built healthcare. $6k US a knee inc drugs and therapy afterward. Next day surgery. Plus it’s a beautiful place to recuperate. They are making a tidy sum in healthcare tourism, mostly from Canadians.

  45. Since the info to guess at what’s needed isn’t available to us comment writers.. I cannot offer specific advice.

    It is sad but true, however, that mis-diagnosis is one of the primary treatment drivers in Canada (a side effect of the regionalization nonsense) so let me suggest that you make very sure the surgery is actually needed before doing anything.

    In particular, some forms of what appears to be bone on bone contact in an x-ray can be treated quite successfully with nothing more than steroid shots – about one every 6 to 12 weeks. Further one of my friends, a former british para now turned old geezer, had horrific knee pain and an x-ray that showed bone on bone friction, but turned out to need little more than having a baker’s cyst drained.

  46. My mom had both knees replaced a few months apart at the age of 93. Now, seven years later, she still has better mobility than before the surgery. She uses a cane occasionally, especially on uneven ground.
    I would look into Mexico or other countries if the wait time is too long in Canada.

  47. Knee replacements routinely done here in the States if the pt is otherwise fairly healthy.
    I’ve seen elderly women literally walking the same day as surgery, and post-op in less pain that prior to op. Within weeks they are acting like women 20 years younger.
    Also seen ones that didn’t go as well… if the pt isn’t willing to put in the rehab work/pain, it won’t go well.

  48. Others here have touched on it…
    I wouldn’t take a crap without a proper MRI.
    In the interim,
    Google best cartilage supplement. Determine if she’s fit/willing to travel.
    I get the feeling this was a GP, best see a well reviewed specialist.
    And, it seems you’re the support, so…. keep that in mind. Sometimes they don’t go well…
    My Dad swore by Jello, and Knox Nutra-Joint if that still exists; and that made him happy.
    My opinion is this:
    Her happiness/comfort is job #1. Her overall health #2. Your sanity #3. Mobility #4.

  49. https://cliniqueduval.com/en. I had revision hip surgery there in 2016. The original surgery was botched in BC and they would not admit it was incorrectly done. US would take one look at the x-rays and decline to operate. Laval Clinic brought in a specialist from the university to help. I know for a fact that they operate on seniors who are ignored by Prov Health Auth because they are too old. They are ethical and deal directly with the patient and not some provincial yahoo who wants a kickback for your referral. These people were great. Check it out.

  50. Try rural medical facilities. Often they are not as backed up as those in the cities for certain medical treatment and surgery.

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