“A year after rescuing Greece from default, Europe is staring into the abyss. The bailout has proved insufficient. Greece needs more money, and it can’t borrow from private markets where it faces interest rates as high as 25%.”
But not an abyss abyss.
“Already, unemployment is 14.1% in Greece, 14.7% in Ireland, 11.1% in Portugal and 20.7% in Spain. What are the limits of austerity? Steep spending cuts and tax increases do curb budget deficits; but they also create deep recessions, lowering tax revenues and offsetting some of the deficit improvement.”
Mere sentences later, he actually uses the word “mirage” in a different context. Missed it by that much!
Related.
just more proof that socialism is only wonderful until you run out of other people’s money to spend.
Couldn’t happen to nicer hypocrites.
‘Only problem with “Couldn’t happen to nicer hypocrites,” Fred, is that the rest of us are going to go down with them, entitled, greedy, bastards.
Those unemployment numbers are a hell of lot worse than they look …. consider the vast numbers of those who are not counted on the roles of the unemployed … the unemployables, students, disabled, criminals, disabled and let us not forget that in those countries half of those who are employed WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT!
‘What’s called a “debt crisis” is increasingly a political and social crisis. ‘
Duh. That’s why governments should avoid extreme debt. Debt isn’t some abstract accounting entry, but a real burden with real social ramifications. People lose jobs and savings because of excessive government debt. People go hungry.
To suggest that the Euro unemployment figures are accurate is like believing that the USA numbers are accurate as well. Absolute BS.
Very upset yesterday to hear that PMSH has concluded that the Greek austerity program is working. Again, absolute BS! Greece is bankrupt along with Japan, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy. That is what we know about. PMSH suggesting otherwise smacks of an elitism that is unacceptable. If in fact the CPC has done such a good fiscal job in Canada the party should be making an effort at every opportunity to educate Canadians as to why these governments are failing. When Canada comes under fiscal pressure the negative public reaction will focus on a government who kept them in ignorant bliss.
No, I think he gets it right. Higher taxes will kill any remaining private sector growth and given the high percentage of people employed by the government in these countries, spending reductions will create more unemployed. There’s no way to grow out of their debt problem and the cures for the disease cause really bad side effects. These places are screwed. And since a lot of their debt is held by banks in these various other countries, well….
I hope Canadians are paying attention.
I suppose at some point leaders like Harper feel that they have to play along with what could best be described as a sluggish teetering on the brink so as to avoid any further fanning of flames of unrest which would probably lead only to a return to socialist style full-on denial and economic collapse. The case in Ireland seems a bit different to me, they were robbed blind by their banks rather than engineering their own downfall through massive public sector spending. But the results look about the same. From what I’m hearing, it’s more a case of large-scale underemployment than high unemployment. That 15% figure probably equates to 30-40 per cent of the population underemployed, making do with part time work.
There’s a ticking time bomb in all of this “anger on the street” theme that some libertarians seem to want to play into, the main actors are far left of the mainstream and certainly no libertarians, so for those who want to rage against the man 2.0, just remember who will own the guns at the end of the revolution.
The way to ensure Canada doesn’t get in the same financial situation as the PIGS is to start cutting the size of government now. A modest 10%/year cut should be easily handled and I’m sure re-education camps could be setup for the fired snivel servants to teach them the principles of capitalism and self-employment. To just let them go would create too much pressure on fast food outlet jobs.
That’s for the snivel service as a whole. Rapid immediate savings could be realized by defunding the CBC, cutting off funding to HRC’s and cutting the HPB budget by 90%. The military, of course, would be spared from budget cuts as it performs a useful service.
Greece is proof-positive of how Socialism, and Leftist thought in general, destroys societies.
I predict that before 2012 is out, Greece will have been extricated from the European Union and forced back to having its own currency, which it can devalue much like Zimbabwe has done.
From the “related” link, that author wonders “The anger that fueled the Arab Spring is now boiling over in Europe. Could club-wielding protesters be in America’s future, too?”
The answer is: “What, you forgot Wisconsin already?”
Yes, the LEFT will riot. Yes, PUBLIC SECTOR UNION THUGS will show up with clubs. Yes, low income punks with nothing to do will burn cars and break windows. Already have. Will continue. Its who they are, a pack of violent retards.
But then there is the Tea Party. Members of which regularly show up to demonstrations with pistols and der sturmgewehren, but do not engage in violence, fighting, burning cars, wrecking the place or even foul language. Who also pick up every scrap of garbage so the venue where they demonstrate is often cleaner after they leave than it was when they got there. Pretty much every time, actually.
So things will probably -not- go the way they have in Europe and the Middle East. Because while LEFTIES are prone to bringing a club to a knife fight, normal Americans bring guns and thereby avoid the fighting part altogether. Unlike Europe, Lefties are not even close to a majority in America. More like 20% all up.
However predominantly DemocRat cities like Chicago and Noo Yawk may become quite exciting places for a little while. Before the majority tires of the BS and jails the a-holes, anyway.
Yeah Loki has it…
One side affect is that life will be easier without all the frivilous regulation….
….such as inspectors going about sampling mill produced livestock feed for animal byproducts…going about from farm to farm. Simple logic would be that their are less mills than famers and faster and esier to inspect.
I had a guy taking samples of my lawn…because he suspected “cosmetic chemical weed control”…because I have LESS dandelions than most.
By the way, this question “What are the limits of austerity?” is a giggle. We just saw what happens when a mega-government falls apart. Soviet Union in the 1980’s.
Gubmint checks don’t get covered, old ladies end up out in the street selling their silverware for a sausage, army weapons available for pennies from the back seat of a Trabant, crime lords run entire cities, the whole schmear.
Duh.
Mirage – rhymes with Farage.
Now there’s a guy with an answer to the problem with the Euro.
The unemployment numbers are very deceptive . . . the really big problem is the under 30 rate and in places like Greece and Spain it is north of 35%.
European history is full of the results of angry European youth. And euro you is not happy, Euro youth is experiencing a huge gap between aspiration, expectations and reality.
Euro youth are finding out that a:
“Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavours to live at the expense of everybody else.”
The bitterness will riot in their streets . . . it is like the 1930’s all over again.
For those that think that the riots in Greece, Spain and other European countries are similar
to those of the so called Arab Spring I suggest the following: not all demonstrations are revolutions, not all revolutions lead to democracy and not all democratic revolutions lead to a constitutional democracy.
All we have seen in the Middle East and North Africa is a push for regime change. 300,000 demonstrating in Cairo doesn’t mean 84 million Egyptians rose up. Ask the Egyptian army who is in charge!
Europe is in financial trouble at many different levels, but not all of Europe. We need to watch the folks in Germany,because when they get the message that they must continue to work hard in order to let people in other countries retire early and goof off. When that sinks in we shall see real trouble.
One thing I forgot to mention is that when the NDP was in power in B.C. the youth unemployment went to 25%. The point that man kinds experiments with socialism hasn’t worked is not the question. The real question is why do so many damn fools keep buying on to the scam.
It isn’t so hard to understand why the Euro experiment is failing: when the Euro was created, the European Central Bank set interest rates at levels appropriate for fiscally sounder nations like Germany. For failing states like Greece, however, those interest rate levels were absurdly low and had the effect of encouraging such socialist states to borrow and spend with newfound abandon.
When these chickens finally came home to roost, the streets of Greece were soon filled with communists violently demanding that the now inoperable gravy train be restarted somehow, by some means. Show compassion to the poor, they cried, because if you don’t, we’ll bash your face in!
First of all socialists do not see earned income as “other peoples money”. In Newspeak OPM in the form of untaxed income is now referred to as a revenue loss for government. Yes, socialists seem to think the song Taxman should be the official Mission Statement for all Western governments (Stevie Ray Vaughan version, BTW, not the wimpy Beatles original).
Second, how does the EU problem affect Canada? I’ve read quite a few stories about the impending EU collapse but I’m still unsure about the financial impact on Canada and North America. A repeat of the 2008 recession? Less harmful or worse?
What loki said.
The Soviet Union failed and European socialism is failing. The US is in big trouble. The common denominator is socialism.
The political parties responsible for this mess are not just those who are openly socialist, but also the “progressive” conservative brands. The conservatives have also been infected with the entitlement disease. Think of the current stupidity of Britain’s Cameron and Germany’s Merkel and the mess Mulroney made in the 1980s.
There has been no reduction in the civil service in Saskatchewan or in the federal civil service. In fact it has been noted here that 33,000 more federal civil servants were hired.
How many civil servants will Vancouver hire to police all the nonsense the city council there is enacting. How many civil servants were hired to police sasquatch’s lawn.
The madness continues here.
“I hope Canadians are paying attention.”
Bwhahahaha
U owe me a new keyboard!
How is it that Greece/Spain bailouts were bad, but GM/Chrysler bailouts were good? I am gathering from CPC supporters that Harper did a good thing by pouring taxpayer money into the failed enterprises, correct me if I am wrong.
a couple thoughts:
It was foolhardy at best to think that European nations could co-exist as one economic entity when they share much animosity culturally and historically.
High youth unemployment rates are the intended consequence of socialism/communism. In an social/economic model that holds nepotism and seniority as the premier attribute; younger less expensive help is necessarily sacrificed to keep the status quo. This is evident in the Public School system where many younger and less expensive labor is not utilized to preserve the higher paying older labor for no tangible gain.
“limits to austerity” is akin to “kicking the can down the road”. These lifelong socialist old fkers will be long gone when the rest of us are paying the consequences for “limited austerity”. As a Canadian tax payer I say STOP THE PONZI SCHEMES NOW! I say we cut our losses on programs such as CPP, and start anew with common sense individually driven social programs that are not doomed to implode. I’ve got 15+ years paying-in and will never get anything out. I’d like to cut my loses now!
Socialists want to riot? Bring it on!
“How is it that Greece/Spain bailouts were bad, but GM/Chrysler bailouts were good? I am gathering from CPC supporters that Harper did a good thing by pouring taxpayer money into the failed enterprises, correct me if I am wrong.”
Not sure what you’re talking about! Conservatives(small ‘c’) were quite vocal against said bail-outs(what are we to do? Vote Liberal? vote NDP?). In fact, conservatives in the USA were critical of GWBs bail-out. Those bail-outs were to preserve the auto industry in Ontario. PMSH might have bought the auto industry some time to recover; and, the most of that money has been paid back (in the American case) already.
I understand PMSH’s reasoning behind the auto bail-outs, and I believe they have merit; but, you’re being foolish if you believe that “c”onservatives didn’t begrudgingly support PMSH at this(at best). I bet if you’d query this site, 100% of the conservatives on this site would gladly have left the Canadian auto industry to fend for itself. Unfortunately, the Americans were quite clear that those plants would be “shut-down” in Canada as the Auto manufactures were reorganizing as a requirement in their own bail-out. We’re partners with the USA in this industry, and we must work in concert with them if we wish to preserve this industry.
Aaron: ” correct me if I am wrong.”
Sure. You picked a bad week to use our auto sector bailouts to make lefty political hay, seeing as how Chrysler paid their loan off this week (GM did last year, and Ford didn’t take one). Meanwhile, the Greeks have burned through their loan (was it even a loan?) without any sign of recovery and are asking for more. Any more questions?
Failing enterprises are different from failing states. Social justice activists don’t have much sway in boardrooms. Maybe you should agitate for making the nation state of Greece a subsidiary of General Motors.
“How is it that Greece/Spain bailouts were bad,”
That’s the question you need to ask those who finance the bail-out. They are the only ones whose views on the “good & bad” is relevant.
I doubt anyone here could care less if Germany sends more money to Greece. “Good or bad” is for paying countries like Germany to determine.
As I alluded to above, the Europeans do not have a shared amenable history like Canada does. Where Albertans might view Quebec as the dead-beat brother who always has his hand-out, he’s viewed as a “brother” none the less. The same cannot be said for the relationship between the European nations. It was a foolhardy venture to believe that centuries of ‘beef’ could be quashed with a shared currency.
If that was the case, the Israel/Palistine ‘beef’ could be quashed just as easily.
> as how Chrysler paid their loan off this week
Wishful thinking. They paid back partial principal plus partial interest. LOL. BTW, still waiting for GM. Still waiting.
I am gathering from CPC supporters that Harper did a good thing by pouring taxpayer money into the failed enterprises, correct me if I am wrong.
~Aaron
Exactly where did you gather this, from your butt?
Wait, are you one of Kremer’s patients too?
Obama saved GM and Chrysler to preserve the union’s stake in the companies, nothing more or less. He was okay with the bondholders losing everything as long as the unions were left with the carcass. In a couple of years they will both be back looking for more but they know they can’t have another loan unless they pay back this one. How would you like to be Ford who didn’t take the bailout, should be cleaning up market share, and have to fight against these government chosen competitors who are too big to fail. Now Greece is a whole other issue..
@Aaron:
Yep, maybe wishful thinking – the loans aren’t paid back in full, yet, but are being paid back more quickly than expected. Seriously what are you trying to argue here? The facts don’t match your ideology and you have a meltdown? I want pragmatic leadership, especially when 20 thousand private sector jobs are on the line. Maybe you should continue waiting for your desired results (of I’m assuming an economic collapse?) in Cuba. Or maybe go protest in Greece with kindred spirits.
“Tony Clement, then the industry minister, knew it was lousy policy and unfair to competitors like Ford and Toyota that were not receiving a bail-out. He was almost apologetic when the final deal was announced, calling it “gutwrenching.” The government kept referring to the bail-outs as loans, but the history of corporate welfare in this country suggested the money might as well have been invested in Florida swamp, such was the likelihood of repayment.
In the event, Canadian governments committed $3.7-billion to Chrysler (only $2.9-billion of which was ever disbursed). When Chrysler emerged from bankruptcy in 2009, the governments received 2% of the equity. Chrysler has now repaid $1.7-billion plus $283-milion in interest. A further $1.2-billion loan was made to the old, pre-bankruptcy Chrysler that is unlikely to be repaid, but the government could get its money back if it sells its shares to Chrysler or in an upcoming IPO at a high enough price.
The total package for GM was $10.8-billion in loans, of which it has repaid $1.5billion plus $83-million in interest. When GM emerged from bankruptcy, the two Canadian governments exchanged the remainder of the loans for a combined 11.7% ownership stake, currently worth around $5.6-billion, and US$403-million of preferred shares.”
Leftards like Aaron are so hilarious. It’s literally as if they can’t remember further back than a week or so.
Wrt to the car company bailouts, in the end equation it is true that the Tories did have a choice. But to deny that they were forced into by the Lieberals, Dippers, and BlocQ is just delusional.
Which brings us back full circle to Aaron.
I do feel sorry for the Germans. They have more or less kept their house in order.
As for concern about German militarism it is IMHO overstated.
It will occur that invading and running Greece, Italy, and France, and supporting them, is exactly
what they do NOT want.
Remember that there are many people in the US – Pennsylvania in particular – who are of German descent – Amish and Mennonite in particular –
and who are actually pacifist. What they share with their European cousins is a liking for a strait-laced lifestyle, skill in agriculture, and skill in building.
During the US Civil War it was not expected that the Germans would make good soldiers – they were not of the right martial stuff!
Anyway, it is time for PMSH to start getting the deficit under control.
Robert, there wasn’t really much of a choice. The government’s hand was forced when the US indicated it would bail out Chrysler and GM irrespective of what Canada did. The best solution, as most of us here know, would have been to let Chrysler go to zero and have new owners take over the assets. But that meant the union contracts and pensions would get zapped, and the Obama administration couldn’t allow that.
Chrysler has been a dog for decades. We bailed out that piece of garbage in the 1970s with Lee Iacocca’s K-Car. It was a loser then and it’s a loser now.
Aaron poses a false choice. We had no real choice about the car companies once Washington weighed in. It was simply a question of what was the least evil outcome. The Germans may not have a choice either. Such are the consequences of a global economy.
> Exactly where did you gather this, from your butt?
No, from the election district map. Being rude does not advance the debate. Just remember, that this is not the only ‘conservative’ site on the Internet. Although, some might think so seeing comment count on last week’s links from Drudge.
“correct me if I am wrong.”
You’re wrong, but relax, nobody’s shocked.
No, from the election district map.
I see.
So a map of election districts told you that Harper did a good thing by pouring taxpayer money into the failed enterprises and CPC supporters cast their votes because of that single reason.
I’ll tell you right now, Aaron, that I voted CPC and it wasn’t because Stephen Harper tossed a few $billion in the CAW’s direction.
I’m an Albertan who drives a RAV4 made in Japan.
Maybe, just maybe, other CPC voters take more issues into consideration than you do and don’t think that maps talk to them either.
I advise you to get some professional help with your mental problems.
I believe the quote originates with Frederic Bastiat, who said: “Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”
Just recently downloaded Bastiat’s The Law. It’s interesting to hear from such wise people speaking in the context of their own time. It seems that there pretty much always existed a thread of enlightenment. The fact that we are where we are in spite of this wisdom doesn’t augur well for our future.
You certainly don’t, Not Patricia. Bush had two things working against him: a Democrat Congress and the need to fight two wars. These things tend to be both expensive and impossible to plan for in advance.
As for Reagan, his economic policies did indeed work – just in time for Bill Clinton to reap the advantages. You don’t think that long term economic policy shifts take effect overnight, do you? You should also remember that it was Reagan who took the single biggest US federal expense off the table, the military confrontation with the USSR. Again, just in time for Clinton to reap the benefits.
What Clinton did achieve was the legislative and policy basis for the housing bubble of the past decade, constituting the single largest factor in the economic crash in 2008.
Not Patricia – Sorry, but Obama is on track to far outdo Reagan and GWB combined, with trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. And, please recall a Democrat ran the House during RR’s term: Americans have presidents, not PM’s.
One last fact, the US economy under Reagan grew by an amount equal to the entire West German economy ( the no. 2 economy at the time.). Output is income; the mass of Americans benefited greatly from Reagan’s policies.
Not Pat. Bush was only hated by the left. He was merely disliked by the right. Carter and bambam are fighting it out for worst POTUS ever.
I think the Dems thought GW was brilliant. After all they are running with the same policies GW did but just not as well because this team isn’t what you would call ‘in the realm.’ I’ll let you pick which realm that is.
John Lewis @ 4:26 said “They (Germans)have more or less kept their house in order”. That is why it is puzzling why they suddenly decided to knee cap themselves by phasing out the nuclear power plants by 2020. What are they going to power their industrial base with?