Robert Werner;
Every day I listen to an excellent 4-hour podcast (minus commercials) of John Batchelor from WABC in NYC. Just heard him talking with Bob Zimmerman about this story. The actual segment can be found here beginning at 18:45. It’s an absolutely beautiful thing to hear Michael Mann squirm!
Well that explains why the G&M is coming out with fists flying…
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/the-earth-is-hotter-than-ever-global-warming-is-real-researchers-warn/article1655436/
The result from the mass of multi-state funded lysenkoism plus rent seeking plus institutional investment times the velocity of AGW hysteria and MSM cheerleading (squared) equals a momentum that slows imperceptibly when exposed to the light of day of uncorrupted science. The world’s greatest grand narrative and conspiracy will not go away easily.
I’ve found the John Batchelor show to be an excellent addition to my alternatives to listening to or watching the rest of msm news and informational media. Almost always, it’s the good stuff. If that sounds like a blurb, so be it.
Have been onto Batchelor’s podcasts for 6 months now. No more mindless local radio for me. Tried to reason with the local radio Jock – hopeless.
Real scientists don’t label those who disagree with their conclusions as ‘deniers’. That’s the sort of response one gets from someone whose beliefs are based on faith not science. Using the term ‘denier’ is a credibility breaker, right up there with ad hominem arguments.
Remember the post about the Gaza mall? Here is a report on an article by an Egyptian journalist who desccribes “Gaza’s absolute prosperity:”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138860
Yeah, it’s from an Israeli newspaper site, but the original writer is Egyptian, presumably muslim. He goes on to say that the prosperity is not enjoyed by all Gazans, but primarily by those with Hamas connections. I’m shocked, I tell you.
O/T from: Whither Al Gore (WAG)? (formerly AGW)
“Frozen Tropics as La Niña takes hold
As La Niña takes hold in South America, we are seeing something I’m not sure I have ever seen before. Temperatures in some parts of the Andes Mountains of Bolivia are forecast to average below -5C this week. The entire country of Bolivia is located inside the Tropic of Capricorn.
Closeup below :
Temperatures are 6-10C below normal in much of South America.
The image below shows Unisys SST anomalies combined with NCEP forecast anomalies. Note how sea surface temperatures affect the land temperatures.
Our friend Joe Romm is very focused on the Northeastern US, but there is a whole big world out there.
Cold Weather Proves Killer in Parts of South America (Source: Time newsfeed)”.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/07/30/frozen-tropics-as-la-nina-takes-hold/#more-22764
Good god you people listen to some retarded stuff…that audio was boring and virtually worthless. Mann wasn’t even to be heard!
CLEARLY the earth is warming…if you can’t see that you’ve got the blinders on real tight. Keep living in your fantasy land, blocking yourself from ever peering out the window into reality.
Are you kidding BTJ ? REALLY?
if the earth is warming or cooling that is fine with us reality deniers i am sure.
What we reality deniers do not accept and dont believe is that.
a)It is man made
B)That taxing the crap out of us is going to change the temrature of the earth and some how remove all of the poluttion from the earth. the earth poluttes itself way more than all human controled countries in the world combined and if compared our poluttion as humans would be measures in fractions or %’s of a percentage point .
Carbon dioxide is not polution stop it with this stuff already!!!
Paul in calgary
History will not be kind to Mann and the rest of the modern alchemists . . . . think of what good could have been done with the $trillions of dollars wasted on global warming research and policy implications.
People are dying unnecessarily because academic prima donnas like Mann love their seats on the Fame & Gravy Train too much to come clean about their malfeasance.
The opportunity cost of the global warming scam . . . priceless.
CLEARLY the earth is warming…if you can’t see that you’ve got the blinders on real tight. Keep living in your fantasy land, blocking yourself from ever peering out the window into reality.
Posted by: BTJ at July 30, 2010 7:56 AM
Here is what I see peering out my cab window at the reality of Mother Earth (and her bounty):
We’ve had a wonderful WARM summer so far this year in Eastern Canada.
Combines are rolling already doing wheat and barley with a bin buster of a yield…moisture is good on it to…and it is a week to 10 days ahead of schedule for harvest.
If weather patterns don’t change to much the corn and beans will also mature properly and yield well. Alot of people GLOBALLY will eat because of it.
Garden produce is also weeks ahead of schedule and who doesn’t love the taste of sweet corn ripened by the suns warmth…cukes, tomatoes, peppers, apples, peaches all in season.
As Canadians we should be embracing warmer temperatures and standing in the streets celebrating that such a thing could happen (thanks to El Nino this year).
However, this was NOT the case for us last year, it was unusually cold & wet all summer. The same sort of situation that Westerners are enduring this year. My concern is that the cold & wet weather pattern is the new normal for us…that is what I see out my window.
The climate industry is re-trenching after the deserved lambasting they got over their research and tactics. (I tried to listen to the clip but it now seems to be about Russia and Iraq). I wrote a mild comment in response to the G&M report someone else mentioned and someone took me to task (in a barely literate way). I haven’t seen this poster before or since, so I expect he/she is part of some group recruited to respond to certain hot button issues like “climate” or “Harper”.
I suspect though that governments are so desperate for other avenues of taxation, they will push for carbon taxes because they hope the populace has been scared enough to accept these, however grudgingly. The UN is votng on “water as a human right” (meaning that Canada who is water-rich should be paying “water tax” I suppose, along with carbon credits to the likes of Mugabe). It has become a huge scam to enrich certain groups, provide an excuse for taxation and to entrench handouts to UN favorites.
I have no problem with cleaning up environmental problems, reducing emissions (I lived in the shadow of Nanticoke coal power station), and managing resources responsibly. But I do have a big problem with the climate scam which has, in my view, hindered us from addressing real environmental problems and put real science in disrepute.
Yes, this is a warm and crop bountiful summer and was a warm winter – at least in the N. American east. Crops are two weeks ahead of schedule. It isn’t as hot as the summer of 2003 which was overwhelming in Europe as well..to be followed by phases of cold.
But last summer and its winter was a cold one – with crops suffering as a consequence.
There most certainly is strong evidence of continual climate change on this planet, which moves through cyclic phases of warmth and cold.
But there is not one valid shred of evidence of man-made global warming. None. Correlation is not causation; that’s a basic scientific truth.
CO2, of course, is not a pollutant and in fact, its increase causes strong adaptive reactions among plant life, which expands to use this nutrient.
There’s nothing new there; this adaptive strategy has occurred many times in previous centuries. As I’ve said before – it is interesting that in two major warming phases of previous times – one about 100,000 years ago and the other about 10,000 years ago..we saw first, the emergence of modern man (homo sapiens) and second, the emergence of agriculture.
The notion of AGW is a money scam, and has nothing to do with the environment. It is a cash-grab by the UN and its ever-greedy minions, to make the West hand over its wealth to the UN buddies.
The tactic is the use of Sin. Only the West has an ideology of Sin, where man is guilty of his behaviour. Try that in China or even the ME. Heh. But making the West feel guilty for existing..ahh..and paying for that Sin-of-Existence. Heh.
BTJ,
I hate feeding trolls, but still…I wonder when you added the B and J to your name.
There are two…just two…things to consider, when talking about whether or not humanity has anything to do with climate:
1) Do you honestly think that humanity’s energy output can ever come close to, let alone overwhelm, the effect that the sun has on our planet?
2) Ditto the geothermal furnace beneath us. Did you know that it’s been cooling since the planet was created? Did you know that this cooling will eventually kill all life on this planet, regardless of anything else that happens? You see, once it cools to a certain point, there won’t be enough magma circulating to maintain our magnetic field. When that happens, solar wind/radiation will kill everything.
Two cold summers in a row here in western Canada. But I’m sure we’re warming faster than everywhere else, just like everywhere else seems to be.
As for climate modelling, it’s complete bullsh1t. You’re dealing with a chaotic system that has far too many variables to account for, even with today’s computers. Even dealing with local conditions is difficult. Just this week, the forecast for yesterday for Calgary changed very dramatically between the 4pm forecast Wednesday afternoon and 6am yesterday morning. And both were wrong. That’s modelling a short-term solution with current data and an historical record. Yet, when climate-change modellers run into problems like this, they don’t check their underlying assumptions or work to correct anything…they just ignore the data to fit a predetermined result. They want to prove that man is causing everything, so they fit the data and calculations to prove this narrative.
Study geologic history. The core to this is that the earth changes constantly, albeit usually slowly. Why, not even 100 million years ago, western Canada was tropical and buried in a shallow sea. Now, we endure bitter winters, and the altitude ranges from sea level to the great peaks of the Rocky Mountains and other ranges. Less than a quarter of a percent of earth’s total lifetime created that change. The Holocene, our current age, is less than 2 million years. This is the only part wherein humanity exists…barely an eyeblink to the planet…and only for a small part of ths interval (10,000 years or so for modern humans). Keep some perspective.
Climate changes. Get over it, and stop buying in to blaming it on people. We’re still recovering from the Little Ice Age in the 1700s, and we’re still not as warm as we were in the Medieval Warm Period, which existed quite happily without industrial machinery or motor vehicles.
Improvement to air quality in our area has been through massive expenditures of money on new technology. A nearby refinery recently spent hundreds of millions on a “coker” process that has greatly reduced production of SO2 and other real pollutants. Only thriving businesses can afford to spend this kind of money. If we let the enviro-fascists have their way, there will not be enough capital for these kinds of improvements. Just look at the horrible air quality in the old Easter bloc countries where Communism left them with no money for upgrades. Lefties have only embraced the phony “global warming/climate change” deal because it justifies forcing their radical agendas on us.
All that nonsense about mountain glaciers is irrelvant.
Examination of the Alpine glacier blocked passes yields objective evidence that any glacial retreat is a normal cyclical matter.
Many Alpine passes currently blocked by glaciers were clear during the Roman Warming….evidenced by the plethera of Roman Roads recorded and now revealed by glacial retreat.
In several of these passes, recovered artefacts testify to iron age warming, Roman warming and the Medieval warming.
Mann’s “little graph” was his response to the warmonger problem:
“Somehow we musy make the MEWP disappear.”
Gore and Suzukster are on record declaring that the MEWP never existed or was regional in nature.
The MEWP influenced the explosive Viking expansion and the rise of the Mongols of Genghis Khan. Coincidently the onset of the LIA maked the decline and failure of these much as the end of the RWP marked the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.
Un-adjusted (unmanipulated)temperature records indicate a cooling trend as far back as 1979….a definite decline since 1998……..the “inconvenient” decline Mann and Jones sought to hide.
The currently retreating ice front at the head of Eric’s Fyord(Greenland) is revealing yet more and more viking era farms.
AGW is limited to Urban Heat Islands.
What I find incredulous about the failed AGW science/IPCC scandal phenomena, is the elapsed time between its revelation (at the Cop15 in Dec.09) to the pending impact on legislative bodies (still hasn’t impacted the forward momentum of AGW motivated taxing).
Politicians were quick enough to pick up on the AGW taxation plunder of the public when they thought the science to justify it was in no danger of dissent within the scientific community, but they are incredibly lethargic recognizing the fraudulent data manipulation of IPCC and the overwhelming number of scientists who now question the whole AGW/GHG theory.
Of course it was always about the revenues and exponentia growth of government but there is something else that seems to be at work driving Pro AGW taxation politicians onward in the face of overwhelming evidence their justification for climate taxing is gone. It’s like they wander about in a zombie-like state repeating disproven Gore climate doom mantras and oblivious of how public opinion has changed. Like automatons enslaved by some genetic programming.
This has led me to suspect that the parasitic political class are genetically different from normal well adjusted productive people. They are a slave to their genes and I believe they have an extra pair of genes the rest of us don’t – The “greed reflex gene” and the “denial reflex” gene.
Future IPCC science will bear this theory out.
“Good god you people listen to some retarded stuff…that audio was boring and virtually worthless. Mann wasn’t even to be heard!”
BTJ
Firstly, I thought you sneered at people who invoked “GOD”…What’s the matter? When the other side invokes divinity, its an excuse to denigrate, right?…Carry on exposing yourself as nothing like the cool and composed pro warmist you are trying to project but simply a blind, koolaid drinking propagandist intolerant to any other view than yours and your religion (More on that at the 1st youtube link here below).
Yet again you “selected” the audio tape instead of the Daily Caller story (the “this story” link) where the meat and potatoes is; exposing Mann as the fraud who again avoids debate and refuses to answer questions. Just like Gore and your God Suzuki (Maybe thats the “god” you invoked here above) whom you told me once would have no problem debating me…I’m sorry, Suzuki is on record for walking out in fury and cursing at at least one interview I heard. He is extremely rude and will overshout if you disagree…just like the ecofascists here below…Totally disgraceful and yet further proof that it has nothing to do with science…The Dark ages equivalent of heretic/witch hunters who did not hesitate to kill anyone who did not share their viewpoint is more like it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxJq-pkRUZs&feature=related
Here’s Suzuki the unproffessional in a radio interview…That’s why he will only agree to be interviewed by the CBC…If you raise any doubt, even in question form, the guy explodes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH9Rj0NQvOQ
BTJ, you, like the rest of the ecofascists are more than just embarrassing…You are truly dangerous. Brown shirt dangerous.
If God is to be thanked, its for having this fraud again’st mankind exposed.
The jig is up BTJ…All downhill for your cause now…Better jump on the next fad: We are running out of water.
Since BTJ believes in AGW and I don’t, I hereby give my blessing for him to pay my portion of any tax his marxist pals dream up.
Sound fair?
Before moving on to PSU, Mann was at the University of Virginia. Our Attorney General (Ken Cuccinelli) is investigating his tenure there to see if we can recover about half a mill in taxpayer money he pocketed “researching” this drivel.
Mann may have to answer questions after all (or take the fifth).
There are a lot of great posts above that explain climate change as it really is. BTJ is just upset that the little scam perpetrated by Gore, Suzuki. Maurice Strong ET AL to enslave western democracy to Marxism has been exposed.
“CLEARLY the earth is warming”
Although quoting this nonsense carries the risk of giving this cretin a false sense of importance, such a statement clearly indicates that BTJ suffers from:
a) some sort of mental illness
b) a masoschistic urge to be ridiculed and held in contempt
c) terminal stupidity
d) all of the above
Whatever the case, much like the guy pushing the shopping cart and loudly talking to himself, he is best ignored.
“a)It is man made”
So you don’t think man has any influence on the climate?
Do we have any influence on any of earth’s systems?
Are we raising CO2 levels?
“That taxing the crap out of us is going to change the temrature of the earth and some how remove all of the poluttion from the earth. the earth poluttes itself way more than all human controled countries in the world combined and if compared our poluttion as humans would be measures in fractions or %’s of a percentage point .”
Ok, now that’s getting into the politics of climate change.
Excuse me, the earth ‘pollutes itself’? More than we do? Do you get out much? We create chemicals that do not exist otherwise. The ocean is FULL of them. We remove forests and entire mountains at a massive scale. We emit an enormous amount of greenhouse gases without being apart of the entire system (earth has feedback mechanisms so that CO2 out more or less equals CO2 in). We concentrate pollution (like oil spills). There is way more oil released naturally than from oil spills but you don’t see dolphins washing up by the dozens because of natural oil releases and you don’t see vast portions of the ocean engulfed in the stuff either.
“Here is what I see peering out my cab window at the reality of Mother Earth (and her bounty):
We’ve had a wonderful WARM summer so far this year in Eastern Canada.”
I see you don’t look to far out the window.
“The UN is votng on “water as a human right” (meaning that Canada who is water-rich should be paying “water tax” I suppose”
Huh? That’s a random assumption and does not reflect reality.
“But there is not one valid shred of evidence of man-made global warming. None.”
Again, when you don’t read or attempt to read scientific articles, and instead listen to opinion peices and rely on the blogosphere to tell you what to believe, then sure, of course there’s no evidence…cause YOU’RE NOT LOOKING!
“CO2, of course, is not a pollutant and in fact, its increase causes strong adaptive reactions among plant life, which expands to use this nutrient.”
And also acidifies the ocean, which is the REAL life giver on this planet.
“As I’ve said before – it is interesting that in two major warming phases of previous times – one about 100,000 years ago and the other about 10,000 years ago..we saw first, the emergence of modern man (homo sapiens) and second, the emergence of agriculture.”
Ya, cause it went from really cold to the about the climate we have now!
“Do you honestly think that humanity’s energy output can ever come close to, let alone overwhelm, the effect that the sun has on our planet?”
What in god’s name does that have to do with anything?
“Did you know that this cooling will eventually kill all life on this planet”
What, in a couple BILLION years?
“All that nonsense about mountain glaciers is irrelvant.”
If you say so :S
“When the other side invokes divinity, its an excuse to denigrate, right?”
It was just a saying…settle down.
“.All downhill for your cause now”
How many years have you been saying that now?
uhh btj – I read, regularly, the AAAS Journal Science, as well as BioSystems, Journal of Theoretical Biology, and a few physics journals. I don’t deal in opinions, as you do, but in facts.
Second, the global warming phases of, eg, 100,000 years ago and 10,000 years ago, were preceded and followed by cooling phases. Ever heard the term ‘cyclic’? So you are quite wrong that it went from ‘really cold’ to ‘now’. It went from hot to warm to cool…to warmer to cool to cold..to warmer to…etc. Some predictions are that our current warming trend will last until the 2030s and be followed as usual by a cooling trend.
No, there is no ONE ‘life-giver’ on this planet. The natural system is a CAS, a complex adaptive system and therefore there are multiple forces operating in this system; not one of them is dominant.
The data on ocean acidification, its causes and its results is still too recent to provide clear scientific analysis. So, don’t try that scare mongering tactic here. Remember, contrary to what you seem to believe in your opinions, the earth is not static but complex and adaptive. If one variable changes, the others in the CAS adapt.
Did you know that the period from 1500 to 500 BC was very warm? Man made? Hmmm? Followed by cold. We have the famous ‘little ice age’from about 1300 to 1800. So, in between these major temperature phases (eg 100,000 and 10,000)..there were smaller, shorter warm and cold phases.
I suggest you do a bit of scientific research. And I suggest that you do some critical thinking about the opinions that you hold on AGW. It is a political ideology and you ought to be more critical of it rather than swallowing it like a rich donut.
BTJ: What in god’s name does that [solar energy output] have to do with anything?
Me: Everything. It is the primary driver of earth’s climate. Yet over and over again, solar cycles are ignored by climate alarmists. We’re currently in the 24th year of a 22-year cycle that has been scientifically demonstrated in repeatable analysis. That we’re stuck in the low point of this cycle is why western Canada has not had very nice summers lately, and it’s why Britain totally missed it’s “BBQ Summer” last year–against “expert” predictions. This one little missed point upsets the apple cart quite nicely. The best analogy I can come up with just now is comparing the heat output from a blast furnace to that from a residential furnace, or perhaps just a candle. Nothing humanity can do will ever have any effect on climate, as long as that big bright thing in the daytime sky exists.
BTJ: “What, in a couple BILLION years?”
Me: Way to miss the point, genius. Do you practice not having critical reading skills, or does it come naturally?
Just to make it clear: geothermal energy output far exceeds human output, albeit at a far lower level than solar output; that planet also produces far more CO2 than humans do or could dream of doing. In spite of this, the planet will continue to cool over time. Even if warming is real, it’s just temporary. That’s why those nut-jobs started calling it “climate change”, remember?
I won’t bother to address your other points; they weren’t mine. But I will give you a piece of advice: if you’re going to hold out “scientific articles” as evidence to back up your claims, you’d better be prepared to submit primary sources. And based on the fact that more and more “sources” for the IPCC reports are being shown not to be actual scientific papers, you should probably understand that by now that it’s just an opinion paper with a political agenda. A high-school kid could do a better lit review than those idiots, and he’d probably do a better job than citing an activist group’s pamphlet and calling it a peer-reviewed article.
But then, you don’t care about that. If you did, you wouldn’t let such conjecture and innuendo stand as science. Plus, what ET said.
I have been a faithful listener to the John Batchelor show since 2001
(when it was called the Batchelor and Alexander show
Alexander since departed)
suffice it to say
it is the only really serious show on Internet/Radio.
Listen to it each night
and you need no other source of information
many stories you will learn about
months or even years ahead of the other media.
(No this is strictly personal opinion
I have no affiliation with the show)
“Second, the global warming phases of, eg, 100,000 years ago and 10,000 years ago, were preceded and followed by cooling phases. Ever heard the term ‘cyclic’? So you are quite wrong that it went from ‘really cold’ to ‘now’. It went from hot to warm to cool…to warmer to cool to cold..to warmer to…etc. Some predictions are that our current warming trend will last until the 2030s and be followed as usual by a cooling trend.”
Please, you don’t need to explain ‘cyclic’ to me…I understand that climate changes, I understand that the current climate change is likely a natural process. That doesn’t rule out human influence on that change and it doesn’t rule out the negative effects of increases in atmospheric CO2.
“No, there is no ONE ‘life-giver’ on this planet.”
I didn’t say there is only one life-giver, but the ocean are the most important, and largest contributer to life…it is the basis for all life on earth.
“not one of them is dominant.”
Sure there are, they are not all equal.
“The data on ocean acidification, its causes and its results is still too recent to provide clear scientific analysis. ”
BS…that’s your go to argument ‘it’s too recent, not enough data’…garbage. It’s called logic, atmospheric CO2 is increasing, CO2 absorption by the oceans follow, acidification is the outcome.
‘It is a political ideology”
No it’s not, only if you get into the politics of climate change and away from the pure science.
‘Everything. It is the primary driver of earth’s climate.”
So how does that rule out any other driver? You realize that the upper atmosphere has been cooling while the lower atmosphere has been warming? So what’s making the lower atmosphere warm? Hint, it can’t be the sun.
“Nothing humanity can do will ever have any effect on climate”
That’s quite the statement…it’s complete horse sh1t though. It’s an ideology, an assumption.
“Way to miss the point, genius. Do you practice not having critical reading skills, or does it come naturally?”
Please, what WAS the point then?
“that planet also produces far more CO2 than humans do or could dream of doing.”
But it also consumes far more CO2 than humans do (we don’t consume ANY)
“the planet will continue to cool over time”
Over vast geological time. We are dealing with climate change on a human time scale.
“be prepared to submit primary sources.”
And I have, I also DON’T READ THE IPCC REPORTS!!
“We are dealing with climate change on a human time scale.”
BTJ, human time scale/ universe time scale = zippity do-da, nada, zilch, nothing, less than minute……..
quit shovelling while your ahead, open your mind, sasquatch got it right ………. it’s a urban island heat measurement thingy, raw data rules.
Sorry, T…I mean BTJ.
I’ve apparently tried to teach a pig to sing.
You want a human time scale? How about cooling since 2006?
You want a human time scale? How about record cold weather in South America…right now.
You want a human time scale? How about recent colder-than-average summers in the northern hemisphere
ET referenced a model that shows warming to the 2030s and cooling thereafter. Human enough?
Which primary sources have you cited? I apparently missed them.
Did you miss me explaining my point, when I asked if you missed it? Apparently.
Why do you continue to ignore the MWP? Why do you ignore examples of earlier warm periods where there were humans around but no heavy industry? Or cooling periods?
Do you not understand that the sun being the primary driver of climate dwarfs into insignificance any other driver? What do you think heats and cools the oceans? What do you think stimulates the photosynthesis that allows plants to keep us from suffocating on CO2? What do you think melts the ice, wherever it’s located?
And I must be imagining the warmth of the sun all the way down here in the lower atmosphere, when it bothers to come out. Clearly, it’s a sensory illusion or the reflection of a delusional state of mind. (That’s called sarcasm.)
And causality has to be proved, not assumed. That has never been done in the case of AGW. And modern climate-change “research” has never been about pure science; if it were, the warmists would never have used such a negatively-connoted word as “deniers”, and they wouldn’t hide from their critics when the sh1t hit the fan. Or deleted their primary data sets. Or refused or delayed FOI requests. These “scientists” are lying ba$tards gorging at the government trough of taxpayer’s money, and it’s time they were stopped. Denied, if you will.
And if you accept, as you seem to, that climate change is a natural cycle, how can you think that we can overwhelm Mother Nature? Makes her seem pretty weak, doesn’t it?
I will correct one statement, though: Humanity will never have any long-term or wide-spread effect on climate. And let me be clear, by long-term, I mean more than decade-scale, if that. Cities will always affect weather patterns, and local land use will create different issues, but it doesn’t add up to global climate change, when things like ENSO do so much more on a year-to-year basis.
But, you got my goat. Another successful troll. Now p1ss off. I’m done.
“I also DON’T READ THE IPCC REPORTS!!”
Don’t worry your sources get their info from the mutual admiration society known as IPCC/NASA. Throw in the WWF for some more anecdotes to build “end of the world” climate change childrens stories.
And since you are able read scientific journals, it should be a piece of cake for you to read the underlying code (designed to support the climate models used to convince all the loons about global warming) that was released with the emails last fall.
Let me know how that works out for ya!
“You want a human time scale? How about cooling since 2006?”
The decade is still the warmest on record.
“You want a human time scale? How about record cold weather in South America…right now.”
That’s weather, the global climate for the year will still be warmer than previous decades. It’s winter, and the climate is changing..which means is unstable…that means THERE MUST BE COLDER PHENOMENA.
“You want a human time scale? How about recent colder-than-average summers in the northern hemisphere”
The global temperatures are still warmer than previous decades.
“ET referenced a model that shows warming to the 2030s and cooling thereafter. Human enough?”
ET didn’t reference anything, he said the following:
‘Some predictions are that our current warming trend will last until the 2030s and be followed as usual by a cooling trend.’
There is no mention of a model, and no reference…just an empty claim.
“Which primary sources have you cited? I apparently missed them.”
Past climate threads.
“Did you miss me explaining my point, when I asked if you missed it? Apparently.”
Must have missed it…or maybe you just don’t know what your point is.
“Why do you continue to ignore the MWP? Why do you ignore examples of earlier warm periods where there were humans around but no heavy industry? Or cooling periods?”
I DON’T! How many times do you have to say that? I acknowledge past climate changes, that doesn’t prove that human can’t influence climate though.
“Do you not understand that the sun being the primary driver of climate dwarfs into insignificance any other driver?”
No, cause it’s not true. If the sun is influencing the climate in a cooler way and it still warms…what’s the driver…you still haven’t answered that. Why is the upper atmosphere cooling while the lower is warming? How can the sun be responsible for that?
“And I must be imagining the warmth of the sun all the way down here in the lower atmosphere, when it bothers to come out.”
CLEARLY, you don’t know much of anything about physical geography. The sun’s rays (short wave) do not directly warm the earth, the absorption of the sun’s rays and corresponding transmission of long wave radiation warms the earth and atmosphere.
“how can you think that we can overwhelm Mother Nature? Makes her seem pretty weak, doesn’t it?”
Cause we do it all the time…take one look at the oceans. Makes us seem pretty powerful I would say…we can NEVER destroy mother nature..we can only screw up the things she provides for our survival.
“Don’t worry your sources get their info from the mutual admiration society known as IPCC/NASA.”
No they don’t…other way around. And you can’t put a slash between the IPCC and NASA.
“to read the underlying code (designed to support the climate models used to convince all the loons about global warming) that was released with the emails last fall.”
Ya, which is why I think it’s ridiculous that people took them out of context and made assumptions based on layman interpretations of the language.
BTJ, if you are convinced that global warming is happening and that human activity is causing it, which of the proposed solutions do you favor and how do you see them mitigating the problem? So far, the proposals have included the Kyotos (some nations pay other nations to continue polluting until their economies catch up)? Carbon credit trading (similar)? Carbon taxes? Population control? Other?
“which of the proposed solutions do you favor and how do you see them mitigating the problem?”
The solution must be holistic in that it seeks solutions to social, environmental, philosophical, economic, etc problems.
Socially, there is a great need for advances, we have made leaps and bounds technologically but socially we have hardly moved an inch. The stall to move past dependence on collectivist thinking is a major factor in this. Environmentally we need to be managing our resources much more closely, which requires a different economic approach. With the current model we are detached from the resources that support us, with money being the focus. The current model is essentially a huge and complex version of the trade and barter system that has been with us for hundreds, if not thousands of years. We can start by stopping the huge subsidies and advantages given to oil and gas. Our education system needs a complete rebuild so that creativity and human ingenuity are encouraged, rather than being stifled. It really takes much broader strategies than political legislature or a new trading scheme. We need to transcend into a higher level of human being.
In April there was a volcano in Iceland with an unpronounceable name, yielding 250 million cubic meters of earth blasted in the air and the biggest disruption of European air travel since WW2. All that particulate matter and various wild gases and huge quantities of water vapor spewed into the air over the Northern Hemisphere. Check out this image:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eyjafjallaj%C3%B6kull_volcanic_ash_composite.png
Notice how Russia and Canada are at the same latitude as that cloud?
And this summer Russia is boiling and there are heat waves and huge rainstorms and tornados in Canada. Correlation does not imply causation, but this is pretty impressive nonetheless.
Man is insignificant compared to nature.
BTJ,I gather from your response that none of the methods proposed to address global warming find favor with you. Whether you believe in human caused global warming or not, it’s hard to see how the proposed solutions are any more than an excuse to tax more, or to redistribute wealth to countries who are not good custodians of their environment or whose wealth goes to enrich some despot or warlord.
What you propose is rather general and somewhat vague except for the bit about stopping subsidies to oil and gas (which I agree with for many reasons.) Do you also support ending subsidies for solar and wind power? Or do you see those as part of the strategy to improve creativity and human ingenuity?
Whether your concern for the planet focuses on warming or whether its the loss of habitat for animals, deforestation, the use of our waterways as sewers…the multitude of ways that we are stressing our planet, we do need to change. Now which is more likely to address the problems (however you identify them)? The carbon tax? Cap and trade? Kyoto? The answer is none of them. These have been piggy-backed onto an issue that has been inflated, exaggerated and tweaked to fall in with an agenda primarily advanced by the UN and other political and economic interests.
btj has to be about 17 years old. His responses are empty of facts and analysis. Just check out his response to the question of ‘what should be done’…it was vapid, romantic, and empty. It’s the kind of response you get from a high school student – and I suspect that’s exactly what he is.
We haven’t made any social advances? Really? What’s your data base – or don’t you consider the rule of law, a constitution, the democratic system, equality, the scientific method, literacy, the focus on the individual, etc..advances from the tribal era?
Dependence on collectivist thinking? Sheesh. How about doing some research on social structure. You’ll find that a society is a collective and must be a collective because, yet again, btj, you ignore that our knowledge is not genetic but learned within the collective. The trick is to balance the two requirements: collective and individual. Not dispense with either. I suggest you read some Karl Popper. Try The Open Society and Its Enemies.
Blah blah..’manage our resources more closely’; that sounds like the tone-dead empty rhetoric of all politicians. What does this mean in operational actions?
We most certainly are detached from raw resources. That’s called urbanization. Did you know that? And, given the demographics of the world, we cannot return to the rural lifestyle, with its direct interaction with raw resources. Did you ever think of that, btj? Do you know the history of urbanization and how it changed the economic infrastructure – requiring a mediation system (eg, money) to enable the transfer of raw to processed goods? Try reading a bit of history of this. You could read Bernal or Braudel.
I am shocked, shocked. btj refers to the trade and barter system as having been with us for thousands of years. Stunned. What else, oh wise one, exists for economic interaction? Hmmm? If I grow some tomatoes and my neighbour has corn, isn’t our exchange a trade and barter? Sheesh.
Money? It is a symbol of work. Money means that I can hire the expert to build the roof on my home, deal with the electrical links and the plumbing. Money means the ability-to-enable-work. Ever think of that, btj, or are you locked in your teenage theme of ‘evil capitalist greed’.
Our education system..stifles creativity and innovation? What the heck are you talking about? How does it do this? Do you mean that learning to read and do math stifles creativity? Do you seriously think this? Do you think that everyone has the ability and desire to be creative and innovative? Are you one of these new age types who thinks it’s all ‘in one’s essential soul’?
A ‘higher level of human being’. What absolute arrogant adolescent sophistry. btj – you are a naive utopian without a shred of knowledge about what you ramble about. When criticized, you deny your own statements, move into the trivial red herrings (slash between IPCC/NASA) and try to tell us that ‘what you really meant’ was quite close to what the critic states. Heh.
I keep saying I won’t reply to btj because he’s so naive and uninformed..but that last bit of empty nonsense …heck.
Thanks ET…great analysis.
BTJ @12:40 would get high marks for that socialist purple piffle at any Canadian university.
“No they don’t…other way around. And you can’t put a slash between the IPCC and NASA.”
So which group manipulated the data? Your sources or IPCC/NASA? And you can put a slash between them when it comes to “climate data” since they both used the exact same crap numbers.
“Ya, which is why I think it’s ridiculous that people took them out of context and made assumptions based on layman interpretations of the language”
Did you go out to the garage to lube up before you typed that in? Or are you just naturally that oily?
ET @ 10.22
Thank you are doing that assessment on those that are totally brainwashed by the AGW fraudsters.
I have long suspected, that part of the reason that the wool is being pulled so easily over their eyes, is because as a society we have moved so far away from employment that involves actually being outdoors season after season, year after year.
If you never really experience nature/weather/climate it is so easy to believe the hogwash that the print and television/movie media spew about AGW.
Young minds, in particular, are influenced greatly when all they do is go from air conditioned house to air conditioned car to air conditioned mall and are constantly bombarded with the health message to put on sun screen because the sun is dangerous.
I enjoy your comments.
“Man is insignificant compared to nature.”
Actually, man emits more CO2 annually than all of the world’s volcanoes combined. Man is not insignificant, rather Man is absolutely magnificent.
“I gather from your response that none of the methods proposed to address global warming find favor with you.”
Not especially, education is one aspect I favor, but again, the whole education needs a revamp first.
“whose wealth goes to enrich some despot or warlord.”
It might help if the US stopped directly funding said despots and warlords…for the past 3 decades+ there is a close correlation between human rights abuses and US foreign funding. Turkey and Columbia are prime examples.
“What you propose is rather general and somewhat vague”
Ya, it would take a lengthy conversation to work through a more detailed plan…instead I only gave a general direction of strategy.
“Do you also support ending subsidies for solar and wind power?”
Absolutely. I would support financing of ingenuity and research, but operational subsidies and tax breaks no.
“The answer is none of them. These have been piggy-backed onto an issue that has been inflated, exaggerated and tweaked to fall in with an agenda primarily advanced by the UN and other political and economic interests.”
Agreed
“btj has to be about 17 years old.”
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again..you are amazing at making empty assumptions and judging people based on non-values and irrelevant group identities. It’s a real sign of weakness when one must stoop to making assumptions in order to identify someone as part of a collective, especially when that collective (in this case age) really has nothing to do with a person’s values or statements.
“We haven’t made any social advances? Really? What’s your data base – or don’t you consider the rule of law, a constitution, the democratic system, equality, the scientific method, literacy, the focus on the individual, etc..advances from the tribal era?”
The rule of law is no recent feat. The democratic system is a great concept, but in real life it usually isn’t employed as it was meant to be (corruption, lack of voting rights). The scientific method is not so much a social advancement as much as it’s a philosophical and technological advancement. There are still 1 in 5-6 people who can’t read. Humans have hardly advanced socially RELATIVE to technological advancement.
“you ignore that our knowledge is not genetic but learned within the collective.”
Our capacity to learn is genetic, the act of learning itself is individual (you can’t learn for me), knowledge is stored in a such a way that it is available for all, and yes we learn from each other…but there is no such thing as group thought.
“What does this mean in operational actions?”
To quantify, qualify, monitor, plan, manage resources. The means of doing so would differ with each resource, but in general money makes decisions, rather than logic, the scientific method, and information regarding resources. Broad level, long term, holistic resource management should replace narrow, finance and short-term driven management.
“We most certainly are detached from raw resources. That’s called urbanization.”
Urbanization does not imply that we must be detached from resources just because that was the course of history. Today’s communication technology as more than bridged the gap between resources and urban areas, and urban areas and resources do not have to be two separate, detached entities.
“Money means the ability-to-enable-work.”
No, human ingenuity and energy enables work. What do you have to say regarding the conflict between a monetary system and technology? In a monetary system people need to work to get money to get the things they need…at the same time technology seeks to eliminate the need for human work (such as replacing monotonous jobs with machines)…therefore technology threatens jobs that give people money.
” are you locked in your teenage theme of ‘evil capitalist greed’.”
Alright, enough with the teenage BS…what does it matter how old I am? It doesn’t make a difference to my words, it doesn’t make me any less or more of a person. Maybe you should just concentrate on the discussion…unless you’d like to take the next logical step and start to judge me based on what race you perceive me as. Pretty weak, having to try and discount my statements by making claims about my age.
“Our education system..stifles creativity and innovation? What the heck are you talking about?”
WOW..I’m clueless? Have you never heard of ‘brain drain’? School teaches people to first ‘socialize’, to get along with everyone, to accept everyone’s opinions no matter how ridiculous they are. Then it teaches you to memorize things, to learn what is already known, to always look for an already existing answer. Then you graduate University and all you know how to do is take orders and find answers from other people…never to create your own answers.
I suggest you watch the following:
http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
And also read Ayn Rands essay ‘The Comprachicos’
“A ‘higher level of human being’. What absolute arrogant adolescent sophistry”
Huh, nice words, but you didn’t really say anything.
“you deny your own statements…and try to tell us that ‘what you really meant’ was quite close to what the critic states”
Care to give an example?
“move into the trivial red herrings (slash between IPCC/NASA)”
“So which group manipulated the data?”
What data!? The IPCC makes REPORTS…NASA performs research and observations.
“Or are you just naturally that oily?”
Huh? Thanks for completely ignoring the content of the statement and instead writing some random insinuating remark. Be better.
That’s not trivial…the IPCC and NASA are two completely different organizations.
“message to put on sun screen because the sun is dangerous.”
Hahaha…have fun with that melanoma.
“What data!? The IPCC makes REPORTS”
Good one. – You are absolute right.
They only use manipulated crap to construct their reports.
“Huh? Thanks for completely ignoring the content of the statement and instead writing some random insinuating remark. Be better.”
Wasn’t random. Rude maybe. I asked a question and rather than admit that you were in over your head, you used a “car salesman response” – “laymans interpretations of the language” = that demonstrates that you either read nothing or understood nothing. Sorry your feelings got hurt.
“Wasn’t random. Rude maybe. I asked a question and rather than admit that you were in over your head, you used a “car salesman response” – “laymans interpretations of the language” = that demonstrates that you either read nothing or understood nothing. Sorry your feelings got hurt.”
Huh? How am I in over my head? You know who’s in over their heads? People who have no background in research or science yet expect themselves to be able to interpret out of context emails by climate researchers…now THAT’S in over your head.
What does that response have to do with car salesmen?
I appreciate you attempting to interpret my ‘feelings’, but save yourself the energy.