Palin’s speech had been remarkably effective. This troubled members of Journolist. On Sept. 8, 2008, five days after Palin’s national debut, some members of the group discussed producing coordinated propaganda designed to wound Palin and boost Obama.
[…]
While other members of the group debated whether to coordinate a pro-Obama message – or, more precisely, whether to concede that such a message was being coordinated — Todd Gitlin of the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism had already made up his mind.
[…]
“Repeat after me:
“McCain lies about his maverick status. Routinely, cavalierly, cynically. Palin lies about her maverick status. Ditto, ditto, ditto. McCain has a wretched temperament. McCain is a warmonger. Palin belongs to a crackpot church and feels warmly about a crackpot party that trashes America.
“These people are cynical. These people are taking you for a ride. These people are fakes. These people love Bush.
“Again. And again. Vary the details. There are plenty. Somebody on the ‘list posted a strong list of McCain lies earlier today. Hammer it. Philosophize, as Nietzsche said, with a hammer.
“I don’t know about any of you, but I’m not waiting for any coordination. Get on with it!”
bluetech – no, the bible is not an historical document – in the sense that its data is an accurate presentation of real events. Its data is NOT factually accurate but edited and interpreted over many, many centuries.
It is an historical document only in the sense that it is, as it is, part of the conceptual history of the Judaic and Christian religions and cultures.
Do not equate the two: the factual and the conceptual.
bob c- you are confusing a religion with a tribe. The peoples who developed the Judaic religion began as a tribe – as did all peoples who lived in that temporal era – and long before the emergence of the religion as a cohesive ideology. All tribes are militant. Their focus is on the economic and societal maintenance of themselves as a tribe.
The religion – which develops, always – after the emergence of a ‘niche-population’ or a cohesive, kin-based set of people who interact economically and politically with each other as a kin-based community…is NOT the same as a tribe.
Again, your error is to confuse the two. The religion can develop generations, centuries, after the emergence of the tribe as a cohesive population. The religion takes time as its beliefs and behaviour are settled, as ‘noise’ is reduced in the beliefs, as more people become followers of the ideology. The political and economic behaviour then starts to follow the ideology…not the reverse. The ideology does NOT start first; it comes after.
The Judaic religion is not expansionist or imperialistic. It does not seek converts – people who convert by choice (which the Christian religion does) or people who are forced to convert (as the Isalmic religion does).
Again, try to understand the difference between a tribe and a religion. A tribe is first; the religion or set of beliefs develops slowly, after and may even move to locate itself in a different population than its origin.
ET;
If we are indeed in the era of an evolved Jewish faith whose adherants are non-aggressive and non-expansionist, then it would follow that Israel’s occupation of the West Bank is not and never was a land grab, but rather what they have all along claimed it to be, a necessary step to create a buffer zone between themselves and enemies who wish to destroy them.
I seem to recall you making the opposite argument in the past, that the occupation is a land grab. I must be mistaken. Anyway, nice to know you’re on board.
bob c – you are making the error of merging the Israeli political actions with the religion of Judaism.
Israel is a political entity and its occupation of the W.Bank and Gaza – which I have long criticized – is a political not religious act. As a political act, it is indeed a ‘land grab’ for there is no essentialist right, religious or ethnic, to any land base.
Ownership or control of land is a political not a religious or ethnic action. I maintain that Israel’s occuption of the W. Bank is wrong, is a land (and water) grab, and most certainly has nothing to do with a ‘buffer zone’. I’ve explained my two-headed one-state solution many times on this blog. It is interesting but, more and more, the two-state solution is seen as not feasible. But the one-state no-federation is equally dangerous. I propose that two-headed one-state federation.
You are quite incorrect – the Jewish faith has not ‘evolved’ into non-aggression. As a religion, it is not and never was expansionist. For Jews as a tribe – the tribe is tribal, in the full sense of the word, which is protectionist. Kindly understand the difference between a tribe and a religion.
You are making the continuous error of defining the Jewish religion and its adherents as a ‘genetically caused’ population; i.e., as a tribe. That is what anti-semitism rests on – that merger of the two.
You can read the texts of Judaism and see its tribal origins; they are obvious and as I’ve said, suggest that they were a horticultural economy. The Muslims were a pastoral nomadic economy..very different. The Christians evolved in a market economy..again, very different. First comes the economy. Then..the religion and cultural beliefs to support and strengthen that economy. But remember, don’t merge the two.
At some time..you have to understand the full ideology of each religion, developed over centuries…and examine it as a full ideology. You are focusing only on the tribe. Not the religion. Same with Israel. Focus on its political nature.
ET;
I’m not the one confusing a people with a religious faith or ideology. You are. Had you said from the outset that Judaism preached being non-militant and non-expansionary I wouldn’t have argued the point. I simply don’t know enough about it.
That isn’t what you said though. You said that “JEWS have NEVER been a militant or conquering PEOPLES”. (My emphasis)
Moses, Saul and David were Jewish people, not an ideology. They were quite militant and expansionary. If you believe that the Jewish presence in the West Bank is a land grab then you believe the Jewish “people” of Israel to be militant and expansionary to this very day.
You need to re-read your original statement and perhaps rephrase what you said.
bob c – no, you don’t understand the difference between a set of people, described in their ideological beliefs, and a set of people – who may not or may be the same set – acting within their political beliefs. The two are not the same.
You even admit that you know nothing of the ideology of Judaism and your only ‘history’ is found in biblical accounts.
Don’t get trapped in semantics. When I refer to the Judaic peoples – in the religious or ideological sense – that’s NOT a reference to any political actions that these people are engaged in. The two – the political actions of a nation or tribe are NOT the result of or linked to – the religion.
There’s no such thing as a ‘Jewish people’. Being Jewish is not a genetic reality; it’s not an ethnic reality. You simply refuse to understand this.
Moses etc were members of a tribe; the Judaic religion is NOT identical to the tribal membership! That merging action, which you are doing, is the basis of anti-semitism. Their militant actions were tribally caused. This has zilch to do with any religious agenda.
Again – there’s no such thing as a ‘Jewish people’. That’s racism. There IS a Jewish religion. And there IS a nation called Israel which is predominantly filled with followers of Judaism. Some of them are very much in favour of the W. Bank occupation; some of them are very hostile to the W. Bank occupation. OK? Get it? These beliefs have NOTHING to do with their ‘being Jewish’. You can believe both sides of the issue – without ‘being Jewish’!
I most certainly do not believe that ‘the Jewish people’ are militant land grabbers! Absolutely not.
I believe that Israel, the political entity, is both and those two actions (militancy and land grabbing) has nothing to do with any religion, but is entirely economic and political, based around the vital requirement for control of water in the ME, and the need for land for settlements and agriculture. With regard to the militancy, that’s obviously a requirement for protection from such imperialist agendas as Iran and the schemes of the PLO under Arafat.
I hope you will stop thinking of the Jews as a ‘people’, i.e., a genetic population. They are not, and their religion, Judaism, is non-expansionist and non-converting. It’s isolationist.
I’m not responsible for your stupidity, ET. You are.
I know what I’m talking about. You don’t. You are merely making shit up. And you can contribute nothing to a discussion on that basis. And yet, you won’t shut up.
No, it is not tautological to say that only a Jew can practice Judaism. It is a fact, and a significant one. By contrast, anybody, including a Jew, can practise Christianity or Islam; by comparison, only a Japanese can practise Shinto. Judaism is a national religion. The Jews are a nation. And yes, I am relying on a definition of “nation” that is universally recognized, and not one that you just picked out of your ass.
And this is not for your benefit, but for the benefit of any reader who makes the mistake of taking you seriously.
ebt;
Regarding your post of July 27,2010 3:17pm. Well said. ET is not to be taken seriously on this subject. Her knowledge of ancient Jewish history is pathetic. Of more recent years and the present, not much better.