If questions like this are raised on American ‘conservative’ sites, imagine the ideas floating about in the progressive half.
Given that no American political leader favored fighting for Ukraine, the only argument for fighting for a NATO member that is even less strategically important would be a sheet of paper.
Because the worth of man is defined by the value of his word. Because NATO followed you into Afghanistan, rightly interpreting 9/11 as an attack on America. Because you elected a fool we followed again into the mess that Libya turned into. Because without honour, you have no soul.
Is there any doubt that the US is the big stick in NATO’s arsenal? No. Want to talk about the dissolution of NATO, fine, but that isn’t brought up,
Canada, France, and the UK invested heavy political capital in your Syrian red-line, the UK PM to the point where he’s all but a lame-duck. And you let them drift.
And you wonder why Israel is giving your leaders the finger? Why the PA is ignoring Kerry? Why the Euro’s are telling you to shut-up about Russia? Why Iran, Syria, Russia and AQ are running rough-shod over your “smart” foreign policy?
You, America, YOU, have lost your soul, not Obama, Holder, Kerry, Clinton or Bush. You. No one in the world trusts you anymore, we all just hope you wake the hell up, because you built this world we live in and we aren’t strong enough to keep it.
If Finland (pop. 5.4 million) and Afghanistan (pop. 15 million) can kick the Soviet invaders out, why can’t the Ukraine (pop. 45 million) keep the Russian hordes at bay?
Harmless as an enemy; treacherous as a friend.
I increasing subscribe to the belief the Europe is not worth defending any more. They will not defend themselves. They look down on the US (and Canada) while expecting us to help with their corrupt EU project. They are committing demographic suicide a la Raspail.
Russia does not pose a threat to the whole world. Only to their immediate neighbours. We are not fighting communism (a worthy fight) when we fight Russia now. We are fighting a petty dictator of a nation in demographic decline.
That my humble opinion.
Finland allied with the Germans,
The current Ukraine military is even worse off than Canada’s.
Afghanistan won the guerilla war (with the full support of the US), not the military one.
The comments on that site are unbelievable. Hitler must be reeling with envy at his poor timing. He needed a world of real panzies like we have now.
I don’t give a rats a@@ about whatever rule I just proved by invoking Hitler. Sometimes history is instructional.
Why would we defend a group of nations who for the most part consider us enemies?
.. throwing aside the debate over whether extant Ukrainian military inadequacy is more largely owed to Russian subversion or Ukrainian corrupt mismanagement… ostensibly close allies don’t heavily militarize against each other. If Finland could repel the Soviets then Canada could repel the Americans?
So what would you have us Yanks do? I haven’t seen any NATO members leaping into their fighters and bombers. Despite the impressiveness of all the conservative chest-thumping, it’s easy to be an uberhawk when one doesn’t have the power to do a damned thing about it, and hence no obligation to actually make good on one’s word. Do you advocate thermonuclear war? No one with a brain seems to, and for good reason. How about you?
And do you really think the world holds such a low opinion of us? Really? If there’s hostility to the U.S., it can be laid at the feet of one man: George W. Bush.
Grow up, mate.
Only in your world, Jeff, does one go from a red-line to nuclear war. Course, that’s how it ends if you do nothing but capitulate the small stuff.
Fortunately, you failed to read the link, so debunking your comment isn’t really worth my time.
Hint, I wasn’t talking about the Ukraine.
“ostensibly close allies don’t heavily militarize against each other”
What part of never-trust-the-Russians did the Ukrainians not understand?
@ lance
Conventional ‘wisdom’ has it that guerillas are 10 feet tall, have bullet-proof skin and wear cloaks of invisibility. Time for the Ukrainians to dust up some Mao Tse-Tung guerilla warfare manuals. Does grizzly bear have the stomach for another death-by-a-thousand-cuts conflict?
Some encouraging signs are showing that lesson being finally learned. If they can hold on for a couple months there is a chance at a fresh start.
Why would we defend a group of nations who for the most part consider us enemies?
It’s good to see that someone else sees that “The King Has No Clothes”.
This media manufactured ‘problem’ is for Russia, Crimea, Ukraine, and everyone else in that part of the world to sort out on their own. It’s none of our frelkin’ business. None of ’em are threatening to invade Canada.
Chill the “FoxtrotUniformCharlieKilo” out.
Sanctioning countries for what they might do based on what the great grandfathers did is as silly as sanctioning all women because they might decide to become prostitutes with the obvious physical capabilities they have for the task.
In a fair and just society we don’t punish people for what they might do. Isn’t that what our opposition is all about regarding gun registration and their laws making simple possession illegal without licenses.
Estonians, among other Baltic countries and more generally East Europeans don’t “for the most part consider us enemies”.Well, maybe you if they read your comments… but I digress. Putin is in dire need of a Russian spring and there’s no might about it.
lance,
As you can see, the sentiment you deplore is alive and well here.
Under normal circumstances, I’d agree with you. But then again, the fact that we’re even having this conversation should prove that we’re no longer living under normal circumstances. This is the Obama regime we’re talking about here.
Ultimately, nobody else is more responsible for a nation’s defense than that nation itself. If a nation can’t rely on itself, to rely on others (even if there is a piece of paper you can wave around) is folly. For references, consult Ukraine (who gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for a piece of paper, the memorandum of 1994) and Czechoslovakia, 1938.
For my part, I look at this issue with a clear conscience. I never supported or voted for Obama, so I take no responsibility for his inactions.
In conclusion: Canada should get nuclear weapons NOW, before Russia starts claiming Nunavut and the Yukon.
I have no doubt that you fervently believe that, yet beliefs don’t make it logical or true. If it brings you comfort in troubling times then by all means believe whatever brings you happiness…. and have a nice day anyway.
“Why would we defend a group of nations who for the most part consider us enemies?”
In Eastern Europe none considers Canada or US enemies. Most are wary about the Putinista Junta and would probably be willing to ally with anyone no to fall under ruskie boot again. Neo-Soviet partition of Ukraine as well as former partitions of Moldova and Georgia are rightly seen as a threat to the sovereignty of anyone from Finland to Georgia.
To add to what Lance have said, most of Eastern Europe have been staunch US allies during Afghanistan and Iraq. They did it because they wanted US protection from the Siberian horde. It is only after Hussein Ogabe Al-Chicago pissed all over “Bush’s allies” every chance he got that those attitudes begun to change.
For the same reason, they also all want to be a part of EU, for many it is simply a matter of self-preservation. Increasingly fewer have delusions about economic benefits of joining the Brussels mafia.
Telling Eastern Europe to FOAD after the allowed for by the west Soviet occupation and subjugation of those lands, for forty five years following the war is a hight of cynicism. In most instances they could not build up their military partly due to decades of soviet imposed communism devastation and partly due to international agreements they had to sign in order to have the Siberians finally leave their lands. Just like Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for guarantees from US.
Of course Ogabe will do nothing and of course resident Kremlin parrots will still accuse him of fermenting unrest thus excusing Pootin for all his aggression.
“In conclusion: Canada should get nuclear weapons NOW…”
Amen!
… and so should Japan btw.
Sheer idiocy.
“None of ’em are threatening to invade Canada.”
What part of “YET” don’t you understand? The whole point of collective defence is that if one is attacked, all are attacked.
In 1938, France and Britain stood at the head of an alliance confronting Hitler. The nations in league with them included the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. Collectively they had Germany massively outnumbered in men, tanks, aircraft. And thanks to Romania, they had a stranglehold on Germany’s oil supply. The military industrial capability of Hungary and Czechoslovakia alone came to a very large fraction of Germany’s total military production at that time.
Instead, France and Britain backed down. The Soviet Union, Hungary and Romania all switched to becoming Germany’s allies providing it with lavish raw materials and actual war production capability. Czechoslovakia was overrun by the Germans, and Czech tanks formed about one-third of the panzer forces that invaded France in 1940 along with one of Europe’s most important heavy manufacturing centres at Skoda.
The collapse in 1938 can be traced to the failure of one man, Gen. Maurice Gamelin, head of the French armed forces, telling the French Prime Minister, “We are not ready for war.” France may not have been ready, but Germany was even less so. The German army head, General Beck resigned in protest over the massive bluff that Hitler was running over the Sudetenland.
And in December 1938, France formally conceded all of eastern Eurupe as Germany’s exclusive sphere of influence. Which is why the Cato Institute author is also an idiot.
“This argument wonders, Who will ever believe us again if we reneged on a commitment to a formal treaty ally? While intuitively plausible, this theory has been tested and found wanting Countries tend to evaluate credibility on the basis of power and interests, not past promises.”
On the contrary, the historical facts of WW2 show that it was the breach of trust created by Britain and France that precisely led to the much greater holocaust starting in 1939 when Germany was ready.
Between them, Barack Obama and Angela Merkel constitute the Maurice Gamelin of 2014.
“Sheer idiocy.”
Yep that would be his trademark.
Amen.
Canada needs to get serious.
Maybe the Iranians will sell us some centrifuges.
The sad truth is we cannot sustain an active icebreaker in the Arctic Winter.
And it seems if we want to move troops in arctic conditions we will have to contract Air Baffin to fly them, as the summer exercise showed our military unable to fly, where Brorek Air was carrying out scheduled flights.
Now call me cynical but the Russians are owed billions for gas sold to the Ukraine, what a way to get the western world to pay the Ukraine’s tab?
Rumour has it we are going to give the Ukraine $billions and they are going to use that money to pay the Russians. If true then Putin is a freaking GENIUS and we are governed by idiots.
What as performance, dance a bunch of troops along the border, seize the asset you really want, the port, then shakedown the west.
And expose the signatories of the Ukraine treaty as lying, spineless weasels, Oh sorry as modern politicians.
Maybe the new canadian bomb can be sold to our allies, after all peace through annihilation is the new world way, religion of peace and all.
“You built this world we live in and we aren’t strong enough to keep it.”
1. We didn’t build it for you. We built it for us. You just came along for the ride.
2. When we moved to defend what we built you bitched and complained the whole time.
3. If you aren’t strong enough to keep the freedom three quarters of a million young Americans bought you with their lives in the 20th Century it’s not our fault. We did our best for us and for you.
4. Most of you wanted Obama and his crowd elected. Some of us tried to warn you but you chose not to listen.
All other things being equal, I know if I were Putin I would be none too thrilled to have a brand new EU/Soros puppet state right on my doorstep. Whether you agree with him or not, Putin is doing exactly what a good leader should: Looking out for his and and the State he leads best interests, and to hell with nebulous BS about “Global this” or “International that”. The Ukraine doesn’t present itself as being worth getting into a shooting war over, especially not for the likes of those who would benefit from it.
Because the UK and the US declawed the Ukrainian cat:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/05/trilateral-process-pifer
For years, the American population has been inundated with leftist (never progressive) dogma and the post-Modern West has become too decadent. How does one defeat Santa Claus at the polls?
Search me.
Re 1: We were in it before you joined first and second time
Re 2: Some did some went to lead in places like say Afghanistan. None did more bitching than your 5th column btw.
Re 3: see point 1, historically we did our part, thank you very much.
Re 4: It is still you who have elected him. Some of us tried to warn you but you chose not to listen.
Well said, lance.
It was obvious in the fifties we need our own nuclear deterrent.
Unfortunately we also had Person as PM looking for a peace prise. Fat lot of good that did us .
Wow. whodathunkit! It’s Bush’s fault. Now that is a piece of convoluted logic.
Last I checked, Poland has been mobilising it’s reserves.
“why Israel is giving your leaders the finger? Why the PA is ignoring Kerry? Why the Euro’s are telling you to shut-up about Russia? Why Iran, Syria, Russia and AQ are running rough-shod over your “smart” foreign policy?”
No! we know why. The Obama administration are meddling FOOLS that pushed the ARAB Spring & the Ukrainian uprising. Obama has Zero support in Congress to threaten Putin. It is Putin that can threaten Obama, and he HAS! The idea that diplomacy has a role at this stage is a childish fallacy. We Americans will stay out of the business of the Ukraine. Putin hasn’t killed anybody YET
I think if Putin nuked Brussels the world would be safer. We are threatened by the UN & EU plotting world domination.
A logical question: If you wanted to prevent a first strike nuclear missile launch. What would be the best weapon of choice? Would it explode the missile on the launch pad?
“I think if Putin nuked Brussels the world would be safer. We are threatened by the UN & EU plotting world domination.”
Please contact your doctor and ask him to kindly adjust your medication. The brain eating parasites seem to have developed resistance to the current dosage.
Putin nuking a NATO member, the very place where NATO HQ is located would make the world safer? You sure about that?
EU planning world domination? Hate to break it to you, but EU is a toothless tiger incapable of a loud fart without US providing the amplifiers.
As for UN, perhaps you could start by booting them out of NY? In case you haven’t noticed, your hero Putin has been using UN very successfully when he wanted to. Need examples or will you find them out by yourself?
Canada, France, and the UK invested heavy political capital in your Syrian red-line
In other words, nothing. Because that’s what ‘political capital’ is. It’s nothing.
most of Eastern Europe have been staunch US allies during Afghanistan and Iraq. They did it because they wanted US protection from the Siberian horde.
Well that was stupid of them. Following a stupid leader into a stupid war so another stupid leader could give you protection? Stupid. Should have built up your own defenses and drilled for gas instead, stupids.
What part of “YET” don’t you understand?
Is…is this for real? Do neocons really think that if we don’t stand up to EVERY bad guy in the world, we will face Red Dawn? Question to area neocons: do you ever think in terms other than 1938 and Hitler? Maybe if you try doing that, you’re thinking won’t be so hopelessly outmoded.
Lance, other would-be GloboCops, get it through your head: we’re not interested. No one’s interested. The vast majority of Americans don’t want any part in any more of your power fantasies. No troops, no money, nothing. This is Europe’s problem. You’re welcome to go over there if you want. Leave us out of it.
“Well that was stupid of them.”
Perhaps. You think it is in America’s interest to have no allies? For allies to turn again America for simple political expediency. Nature abhors vacuum.
“Should have built up your own defenses and drilled for gas instead, stupids.”
Ehmm, none of those places could afford to build sufficient defenses to stand up to Pootin. Plus as I have mentioned before they were bound by international agreements they were forced to sign in order to get the consequences of Yalta betrayal off their backs. Drilling for gas? I give you that. Gas has other substitutes too and not developing them has been criminal.
“Question to area neocons: do you ever think in terms other than 1938 and Hitler?”
You have asked that question before. The answer is Never. And it is always better to be proactive rather than wait till it is too late. Edmund Burke had a nice quote about it.
“…we’re not interested”
Who is that “we” you are talking about? The moment fecal matter hits the fan “we” will be restricted to a handful of disciples of Ron Earmark Trademark Paul and a few traitors like Trudeau who enjoyed driving though Jewish neighborhoods in Quebec wearing a German helmet and honking his horn during the war. Nice company you’ll be in.
The idiots in charge will bumble and fumble, hem and haw, make completely incoherent statements, and tick all our treaty partners off. And embolden our adversaries and (so far, peaceful) competitors.
When Russia, or China, or Iran, or some other country decides to take advantage of the complete mess that Obama, the EU, and every other socialist idiot has made of international relations, someone (Obama) will panic and realize that his “legacy” is going to be that of the biggest fool of the 21st Century. Then they will suddenly “get tough” and commit forces in a hopeless fight. And when they realize it is hopeless, they will resort to nukes to “symbolically” “send a message of our resolve.” And there will be a reply and escalation.
Hopefully it will end with only a few cities and a few tens of million dead. But it will more likely be about 5 billion in the ten years following a large nuclear exchange.
“Question to area neocons: do you ever think in terms other than 1938 and Hitler?”
Yeah, I’m thinking more in terms of 1939 and who it was that invaded Poland from the East at the same time that Germany invaded from the West.
The decision not to build nuclear weapons came in 1948, long before Pearson was Prime Minister or Ambassador to the UN. And it’s been the unanimous position of every political party in Canada ever since.
Then there’s this priceless stupidity from Spinal Tap.
“we’re not interested. No one’s interested. The vast majority of Americans don’t want any part in any more of your power fantasies. No troops, no money, nothing. This is Europe’s problem. You’re welcome to go over there if you want. Leave us out of it.”
Then by not stopping them now, you’ll face them later when they’re stronger and you’re weaker. And because you sold potential allies down the river, no one else is going to be much interesting in helping you when it’s your turn.
cgh;
You might take comfort in understanding the Euro situation by analogy to 1939 but I do not. The Euro answer to WW II was a NATO alliance and the creation of the EU. It is obvious by now that NATO worked simply because the USA and Canada financed it and armed it. The Euros have had decades to establish a serious defense of their alliance and still call for help from N. America. They could not even run a simple operation like Libya!
During these lost decades of Euro ineptitude we had to listen to these socialist/communist lecture NA on our perceived shortcomings on life style, government etc. I suggest a trip to the Canadian War Museum in Calgary, I am sure the one in Ottawa is much the same. A truly humbling experience and a testament to the sacrifice Canadians have made to ‘help’ the Euros. As a father I would not support such an effort again unless I saw serious effort by Euros to help themselves. I am not holding my breath on that one. If nothing else the French can dust off their MADD plans for their nuke arsenal and start issuing warning to Putin.
Wait a minute, how about Plan B. The Euros can start breaking trade relations with Putin and bring down his house of cards in the process. Cut off his oil and gas and watch him dry up. To cold for that? How about we ship the Euros some of that high carbon content Canadian crude and nasty gas to keep them warm. My goodness. Might that have been the underlying reason for PMSH ability to sign a free trade agreement with the EU?
At the end of the day i don’t want to no part of this Ukrainian mess, i feel bad for them but like everyone else, the usa fighting off the Brit’s on there own.
Canada fighting the Americans off on our own. etc etc. The Ukrainians and the rest of the individual Europeans states need to learn how to do stuff on there own.
I cannot believe we are giving Ukraine millions of dollars when we have a national debt of 4 Trillion including all liabilities etc etc. This is insanity.
We need to stop all of our foreign aid policies and start building our military up and acquiring nuclear weapons and start taking our northern coast more seriously when it comes to defense.
On a side note America promised Ukraine that it would protect it if it got rid of it’s nuclear weapons via the Budapest agreement so america has an obligation to defend the ukrain. Canada doesn’t except for the Ukrainian vote here in Canada.
NATO is well past its due date and is no longer relevant. So is the United States, but they don’t know it yet and still won’t know it when it gets worse for them.
Once Ukraine, created by Lenin in 1922, pays its past-due bill for natural gas to Russia, things may change. The rest of Europe is current on their payments. That’s just one problem
Skinheads are running rampant in Ukraine, desecrating Jewish cemeteries among other atrocities. I have heard that both from recent immigrants from that region whose families have fled to Molodova because the Ukrainian civil authorities cannot bring the skinheads under control and those reports were confirmed by my sister who lives in Toronto and has heard similar accounts from people who have family in the area.
Yes, there are skinheads in Russia, but they’re much better controlled … unless somebody here believes they have a human right to desecrate cemeteries.
It may help explain the Russian statements about neo-Nazis in the Ukraine. They’ve seen this act before and perceive it as a threat.
Meanwhile, the superficial moronic leaders of the west are falling back to the default rhetoric of the Cold War to justify the zombie NATO without understanding the underlying challenges of the region.
Continue with your delusions if you must, but Ukraine has not earned the right to be an independent country with the series of kleptocrats the people have elected to steal from them since 1991.
Some of the based-on-ignorance solutions I’ve read on here have about as much intellectual depth as a kindergarten class. With that lack of thinking, it’s becoming clearer to me why there have been so many unnecessary wars throughout human history.
Last Sunday, an immigrant from the area showed up a church.
He was born in Crimea, lived in Toronto for a while, then moved out west.
He said ‘I don’t like Putin much, but I would take up a rifle and would have not trouble shooting it.’
Please do yourselves a favour and speak to somebody whose lives are affected, either directly or their relatives, by this situation and you’ll find it’s much different than the Cold War BS you’re being fed.
As much as we would have liked to solve the obama problem years ago, he is supported by marxist fellow travelers. Our system of government does not provide for rapid correction of the evil deed done to us or in our name, as in parliamentary forms of government, we have to wait until elections. Never before in our country’s history have we had such overt and massive election manipulation as in our last election. Of course, there is no evidence of this because the dhimocraptic/marxist press covers it up. When there is voter intimidation and opposition groups are attacked by government bureaucrats, when the senate majority leader sends troops to evict property residents of 140 years, to steal the property for a communist chinese company, we have a hard time doing anything about it short of revolution or secession. Keep it up you “liberal” pukes, you may get just what you wish for.
A warning to Canada, Europe, Japan, etc. We are all you got! I see the author talk about all the support we have had – like pixxing in the wind. We are in debt because of your stinkin’ socialist ideas. We are in debt because we insist on the best equipped and trained armed forces in the world. Your ideological children have taken control of our country and we can’t do much about it. Doesn’t it suck to be the country that gives The US the finger and then finds out the boodg country is next door and there is no one to help them? (stupid Captcha failure again!)
If the kremlin dwarves are getting you for free they’re still paying too much. BTW the line about right wing pogroms has failed hard. You are better off sticking with “rescuing persecuted ethnic Russian minorities”.
WJC denounces ‘exaggerated accounts’ of Ukrainian anti-Semitism
ME? Are you talking to me?
Bubba last time I stood up and served my country to save the world from Soviet Russian aggression I was condemned, by the Euros, by the US government, by my own countrymen.
Coming home with a bi lateral hearing loss and a bad skin fungus infection I was cursed and spit on in Oakland’s airport, I flew space available in an empty first class seat and my civilian seat mate asked the flight attendant if he could sit anywhere I wasn’t. I got home and my so called home town friends laughed and called me a baby killer. I went to the Labor board as instructed and was told with my qualifications I could only find a job in the Mafia. I got a job shoveling slag for minimum wage at the local copper mill but was fired because of that pesky skin rash. The number of times I was called a ticking time bomb, unqualified or over qualified for a job I didn’t get was amazing. I found I was un qualified to shovel feces at the towns sanitation plant.
Even today I hear from everyone who wasn’t a veteran how bad I was to go, how I was stupid to not get out of an unlawful war, a war criminal in need of prosecution.
—-
And now just one day after the anniversary of my being sent, and two days after my birthday I read this.
“You, America, YOU, have lost your soul, not Obama, Holder, Kerry, Clinton or Bush. You. No one in the world trusts you anymore, we all just hope you wake the hell up, because you built this world we live in and we aren’t strong enough to keep it.”
Bubba, my give a da nm is busted, you clowns are on your own, have fun getting eaten by the Russian bear, don’t call America cause your liberal infection has made our government a bunch of idiots and frankly I do not care.
You Euros and the rest of the world got what you wanted (Obama, Barack H. the first Black POTUS- An American free world) and now you clowns will get what you so richly deserve.
FOAD.
Apparently, Americans have lost their soul because they’re no longer willing to shed rivers of blood and spend countless treasure protecting people to whom they owe no obligation whatever.
Yes, we built and maintained this world of unprecedented peace and prosperity for the last 70 years; at great cost and sacrifice, while the beneficiaries of our largesse sat on their asses and criticized our every move.
If you’re too much of a pussy to keep what we gave you, that’s YOUR problem.
Ka. Boom. Nailed it. What Lance and others are suggesting here is actually sick. They think the lives and treasures of the American people should be endangered and sacrificed so the USG can maintain some kind of perverse ‘honour’. Cgh in particular seriously believes that THEY’LL COME FOR US NEXT, which is unverifiable paranoid BS. That’s why they’re so upset at the direction the world and the American public in particular are headed in: nobody’s interested. Nobody. You lose neocons.
You think it is in America’s interest to have no allies? For allies to turn again America for simple political expediency. Nature abhors vacuum.
Real allies, that make sense within a strategy. Not ‘allies’ that require to defend them and in exchange send a few troops to your dumb Quest for Iraqi Democracy.
Ehmm, none of those places could afford to build sufficient defenses to stand up to Pootin.
Total nonsense. The Baltic states all could have they are first world countries. Ukraine and Moldova could have EASILY done so if they weren’t a broken corrupt POSs. Poland has to some degree done just that. They are getting kind of sorta serious.
I want to come back to the insanity of ‘if we don’t stop them over there they’ll come here!’. I could go on about how this makes no sense but I’ll stick with why it’s most wrong. The USSR couldn’t win in Afghanistan after America started helping the Mujahadeen. Russia is far weaker today and Ukraine has 46 million people most of whom hate Russia and are situated a lot closer to potential supply lines out of Europe. If you don’t want Russia here, then you should hope they invade Ukraine all-out and get stuck there.
The neocon arguments are as bankrupt as the American government.
Putin is not going to stop voluntarily and is not deterred by Europe or the US. We can make comparisons to history, but it is instructional that megalomaniac leaders don’t stop voluntarily, not at Georgia, not at Crimea, not at Eastern (then the rest of)Ukraine, … or at – is it Poland? No that was the pre-modern era. Is it Estonia? Where is the red line here?
So, the Putin/Russian Oligarchs/Russian Orthodox Church cabal must be stopped. If we learn our lessons of history, we can do it without war, though healthy deterrence won’t hurt. For now, that means when Russia invades eastern Ukraine then bold action is needed to disturb the Russian populace with economic pain, so they get rid of Putin.
I fear that when, not if, Putin escalates further, and Europe, once again, fails to act decisively, we will, sooner rather than later, enter, at best, a new cold war & arms race, and at worst, war.
Our lib-left socialist governments are to busy picking winners and loser at home to effectively fight a real war.. If its not a cake walk where they control every aspect of the problem and the solution they come up empty..
The test and the answers have been handed to our modern leaders.. They dont have a clue unless the enemy intends on emailing them their battle plan the night before..
Who is going to fight for that? You cant Google victory!
Lenin did not create Ukraine In 1922. That country has been around since the time of byzantium. Kiev was the capitol of all that area including the RUS. In fact, until the Rus threw off the Ukranian yoke under the early Tsars (a corruption of Caesars), there was no Russia. A lot of what is now Russia was ruled by the Lithuanians and the Poles. Kiev was a trading city of the Vikings, trading with the Byzantines. The good times come and the good times go. They generally go when people are afraid to fight or get hurt or when people think the boogie country is going to pat them on the head and feed then. The greatest cause of countries going is when the feeble minded think that all other people are gentle and good. All they have to do is turn the other cheek.
(Another Captcha f-u)
BTW.. In international politics and war we all lose.. The enemy is not going to cherry pick who gets shot based on word of mouth.. They are going to shoot us all until we have nothing to say.. Then they will pick who is useful and who is not..
Politics is a luxury that comes with winning wars.. It is not a right its a byproduct of killing other people.. Finding this out when your in an open field surrounded by barbed wire is the moment you figure out just how useless politics is..
Right on, Jay! I’ll bet all those peacenik idiots will want envy our guns, when the boogie man comes.
“Real allies, that make sense within a strategy. Not ‘allies’ that require to defend them and in exchange send a few troops to your dumb Quest for Iraqi Democracy.”
Worthless hypocrite. They allied with your policy. They stood by you and now you’re telling them they should not have done it because you are opposed to that policy? I am sure future “real allies” will trust you after you establish a track record that allies are disposable with every change of administration.
“Total nonsense. The Baltic states all could have they are first world countries. “
That did as much as could have been expected of them. They are tiny they threw their lot with you and now you see them as disposable.
“Ukraine and Moldova could have EASILY done so if they weren’t a broken corrupt POSs. “
Both have been constantly interfered and manipulated by Kremlin. Part of Moldova has been occupied by the Putinista Junta for years.
“Poland has to some degree done just that. They are getting kind of sorta serious.”
Poland is the best example of how you are willing to piss on your allies – on the anniversary of soviet invasion in 1939 you cancel the missile shield. As for their military capability they are a long way from being able to stop the Siberians. They got some shiny new toys but most is pretty antiquated. At least they have some cadre familiar with modern NATO gear. So did Georgians.
“If you don’t want Russia here, then you should hope they invade Ukraine all-out and get stuck there.”
Some of us would not like to see Ukrainians being slaughtered by the Siberians. And cutting the capability of Siberians by helping Ukraine and pulling her towards civilization will help keeping Siberians at bay much more effectively than letting them run amok.