… but after some 5000 years of human history where governments turn on their own people, why would anyone be surprised when their own government proves not to be a friend.
“Snowden, I don’t like him at all, but we would never have known what happened if he hadn’t told us.”
Hello, I’m from the government and I’m here to help you to a FEMA re-education camp in your neighborhood.
Somebody had to bell the cat.
Rep. Forbes hit the nail on the head. This database can and will be used for other purposes. National security is merely the smokescreen by which governments have always introduced intrusive measures into the private business of individuals. And far too many so-called conservatives go along with this kind of state power.
chg nailed it. No more comments needed.
but after some 5000 years of human history where governments turn on their own people, why would anyone be surprised when their own government proves not to be a friend.
Exactly!!!
I wrote this on another blog but its true. As one commenter said now they can even Plant evidence on your computer as the Police did in the old days drugs on people. We are all public enemies of the Government these days. No matter what these people say. Th elected are just caretakers. The real power is in the bureaucracy.
Fact is folks none of live in a free World any more. No not one.
Obama’s NSA has taught us that.
We are subjects to other powers now. Not of our own Choosing. We are subjects not citizens .
Islam is just part of the puzzle of subjugation of free Individuals. An excuse, very real excuse, for more power with absolute control.
Total control. Islam is just its most obvious sword.For this service they get protection from the highest councils of Mankind. The lowest Hells of demons.
Every word we use, has now been reversed to mean its opposite. From Human Rights to Tolerance to mean what the these shadow men want us to hear. Under the blanket of security.
A new language for social slavery.
Even the Absolute monarchs of old. Nor the Roman emperors, had this much knowledge, or utter force. To make us all vassals of the State. To in effect collect such data as to make us all guilty of any thing they want.To control what we eat, watch, think, even our movements.
In the near future it will not be said by governments: Your fortunate to live in a land of liberty for Individuals. What will be said. Is your Lucky we don’t charge you for uttering a crime when you where even 12.
This is now our Planet under Men who are completely ruthless.
Call me cynical, but I say this is all just a bunch of theatrics by scumbag politicians who knew exactly what the NSA was going to do with that ridiculously long leash they gave them, and now they have the gall to act like they’re just as shocked and insulted as the average American citizen. Give me a break. They’re all enablers, D and R alike.
were the article failed, it failed to mention they need first to identify the target before they can use the data base to “spy”, the Boston bombers are a great example of such failure, they, the security rectums were warned, and they still failed, well until after the BOOM, then the law was applied to subserviate the “tax payers”. This is the same with homeland security, don’t profile, inconvevience every one at great cost. THE TERORRISTS HAVE WON BECAUSE OF OUR STUPID POLITICIANS!!!
Snowden could have achieved the same effect (sans foreign a-holes) by going to people such as the congressmen quoted in the article. Look who he runs to instead – The Guardian, China, Russia and Bolivaran commies. I think he does this because (a) he wants to whore around internationally with Assange Inc. and (b) he’s such a self centred dyed in the wool lefty douchebag that he couldn’t bring himself to work with Republicans, preferring to shop his country’s secrets to its enemies.
Argue about his tactics all you like. Your post is just quibbling. I don’t give a rat’s a$$ about how he chose to leak it out. The only important fact is that he got it out too widely to ever be stuffed back in the box. Which your preferred method might well have done. And because it wasn’t released to some politician, no one can convincingly brush it aside as mere partisan politics.
Max: IMO had Snowden tried any official channel, he’d be in some deep dark hole right now and we wouldn’t even know his name.
I disagree with Max at 10:05pm – Snowden saw the entire operation in DC as corrupt and that he would likely be “disappeared” whoever he spoke to. His choice of Hong Kong was clever (no way to intercept the aircraft once it left Hawaii) and a clear British rule of law. He also knew that their Chinese overlords would never let him be extradited easily. The flight to Russia likewise avoided the unlawful diversions we saw happen in Europe. Now, he has to figure out the next step, which may be to have enough false flight plans to cover the real departure.
He may be perceived as a lefty, but I believe his goals were patriotic, regardless of the disinformation campaign launched against him.
I don’t think Snowden knows the game he is playing. He can’t trust the American government as it has been proven that it is spying on the average citizen but China and Russia are no more trustworthy.
Just saying.
The devil is in details. If the US wants him dead or locked up, he’s done no matter where he is. What’s keeping him healthy is likely the threat of an electronic deadman switch, which would have been just as effective had he stayed at home. Eg: he could have (1) made the deadman switch, (2) gone to congressman friendly, if turned down and sent to some hole then (3) a bunch of reporters receive his story and secret documents (4) we see the same Snowden and Prism headlines without aforementioned foreign a-hole involvement. If he cares so much about his country then he can handle being locked up to sacrifice for it. The US still isn’t North Korea. Nobody will pull his fingernails out or electroshock his balls. He’ll get 3 squares, reading material and an hour of outdoor exercise.
What he did was wrong. Part of being conservative is being nationalist, and that means solving problems in house and not going to enemies. I suspect Snowden sees his actions as just that – him being more aligned with the leftist one-worlders than his own conservative countrymen.
Well said. The Road to Serfdom.
I’m curious. Just where is the smoking gun on the idea that the NSA program is an Obama thing? And, where has it been shown that the N.S.A. has been co-opted by the authoritarian Obama regime.
While the idea that the power of the N.S.A. has fallen into the hands of a totalitarian or fascist regime is uncomfortable, I submit that nothing is further from the truth. Weakening the authority of the N.S.A. is in this regime’s interest. In fact, it may well be the final piece of the puzzle. My opinion is that the N.S.A. is an organization dominated by conservative thinking, and operates dutifully, in a very constrained manner.
While it is convenient to vilify the N.S.A. because it is Obama’s administration, I think it unwise. It opens opportunity for this regime to insert its political officers into the program, a program that has yet to be penetrated. In doing so, legitimate concerns will rapidly become reality and any hope of purging global fascist networks will be lost.
I hope they go rogue. I want the Bilderberg members, the U.N, the I.M.F., the Federal Reserve, and this entire administration revealed and purged. Then they can go after the unions.
Nobody likes traitors??
Au contraire. BamBam, who hasn’t even proven he’s an American, has not been impeached yet. Seems lots of people like traitors.
Part of the problem here is that so-called “conservatives” — like Patriot Act signer Bush and his ilk — are the very people who created this monster. If he had gone to a sympathetic audience, let’s say one of the Pauls or Wyden, you and others would be tripping over yourselves to be first in line to call them wing nuts. It’d be funny because it would be both conservatives and “liberals” doing it.
People like Bush and many other conservatives believe that their country’s security is worth more than the values on which the country was founded. (See Bush’s decision on torture as well).
Now if I wonder if we’d hear squawking on this blog if Romney had won the presidency and then Snowden pulled this. Not bloody likely. It’s time for conservatives to wake up.
CJunk is still blogging!
Peter Jay: I’ve taken particular interest in this case, and from what I can tell from comments sections on conservative blogs, a good plurality of conservatives do not support the NSA on this, and most blame Bush for getting the ball rolling with of course the pleasure of blaming B-Ho for expanding surveillance dramatically. Your comment about Romney is dubious, as in fact, many conservatives never did support Romney and stayed home. Palin/McCain had a better turn out of this constituency. So, your generalization is not that accurate IMO … don’t confuse GOP hard boiled eggs, with conservatives. As well, this is the first issue I’ve seen in a long time that has united many liberals, libertarians, and conservatives. I’ve even seen a lot of humble pie, where past proponents of Bush/Cheney now admit that those who expressed concern over the Patriot Act, were in fact, correct. As well, there seem to be as many Republicans who castigate Snowden as do Liberals … it’s a fascinating turn of events.
rosseuage: on occasion … but not on a regular basis.
Don’t have much sympathy for the politicians who created this NSA monster. I used to think that the Russians were the primary exponents of brute force solutions to problems, but it’s now clear that the Americans have greatly exceeded the Russian excesses. When one has a database this large it’s all but useless in dealing with terrorists but it is a treasure trove of data to blackmail or discredit those individuals who are out of favor with the central committee of the democratic party of the USSA.
I never thought I’d see the day when Russia would be a destination for patriotic Americans seeking political asylum who, because of their support of the US constitution are viewed as enemies of the people in the USSA.
The NSA program is completely unconstitutional and needs to be dismantled. It should instead be replaced by a network of human agents who utilize standard investigational techniques to track down terrorists. This means infiltrating centers of terrorist activity such as mosques and radical islamofascist groups. Better yet, don’t allow terrorists to enter the US. Human intelligence is far far better at detecting significant patterns than machine intelligence. If the technology were sufficiently far advanced for computers to conduct intelligence operations on their own, then it would also be sufficiently advanced to have software replace wetware in medical applications. Right now I don’t feel any concern about being replace by a machine and human wetware algorithms will dominate decision making for some time as the hope that “more is different” when one builds the worlds largest database hasn’t materialized. Maybe quantum computers will make the difference as, if Penrose’s conjectures on the functioning of the human brain are true, then a quantum computer will be a true analog of the human brain.
“Now if I wonder if we’d hear squawking on this blog if Romney had won the presidency and then Snowden pulled this. Not bloody likely. It’s time for conservatives to wake up.”
I’m not sure about that, at the very least there would have been many comments from the libertarian conservatives on this blog who think a RINO like Romney is almost as dangerous as the leftist people control crowd.
Bush was a conservative in name only, as are many current Republican leaders, and as you say created this monster. But, to be fair, Bush thought, as did most Americans and non-leftist Canadians, that the US was under a direct radical Islamist infiltration assault, and actually still is.
The question is, how do you combat this infiltration without compromising freedom of the people. Unfortunately there are always compromises when a nation is under severe threat, which make no mistake, it is.
The question here is that NSA was being used to target domestic opposition citizens as compared to foreign elements or domestic 5th column.
Part of being conservative is being nationalist, and that means solving problems in house and not going to enemies.
Thanks for reminding me why I’m not a conservative. And please leave our freedoms out of your silly pre-occupation with ‘enemies’.
Nobody likes traitors and that has nothing to do with Snowden, who is only a hero.
My opinion is that the N.S.A. is an organization dominated by conservative thinking, and operates dutifully, in a very constrained manner.
In what world is collecting everyone’s calls ‘constrained’?
Make no mistake, if Romney were in charge 90%+ of these ‘Snowden sympathizers’ would call for his head. Sadly the vast majority of his conservative supporters are just playing the team.
GOP… thee other team in the political game
back in 1963, HW Bush, along with his father Prescot, and their good buddy Allen Dulles, were part of a plot to “over throw” the government (kill Kennedy), guess what institution played a part in this, erm yup, NSA!!!
L-ass “Sadly the vast majority of his conservative supporters are just playing the team.” YUP, fer once U git it rite:-)))
“… And far too many so-called conservatives go along with this kind of state power.”
Bingo, my Man! It’s bad enough that the Liberals and Socialists nibble away at our freedoms from the left side (property rights, freedom of speech, environment ‘protection’) – we sure as hell don’t need the Conservatives chewing away at our freedoms from the right, under the pretense that it is necessary for security, law and order, and justice.
The flight area of Moscow airport isn’t some dark hole? I’m tempted to fly to Moscow just to see how he’s doing. He may become a tourist attraction.
Bush wasn’t Conservative. He expanded government.
After sleeping on it, now I think that Snowden must not have any leverage left. The Russians won’t protect him outside the airport? And banana republics that love eye poking the US won’t even take him? Doesn’t seem like a guy with valuable stuff to peddle.
Now time for a pointless rant. Privacy has been eroded and won’t be returned by Snowden or similar dipsh1ts. People don’t care enough about privacy to be mildly inconvenienced. Today it’s absolutely clear that every possible phone call, email, letter(?!) is being snooped, and are people rioting in the streets? Are people closing their facebook accounts en masse? How about cash? Do people refuse vendors who won’t accept cash? How about the army of airport crotch-fondlers? Anyone telling them to eff themselves? Did people stop clicking ‘accept’ on 3,000 word software AUPs because of the ambiguous clause buried in the 14th paragraph? NO BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DON’T GIVE A CRAP. Does that make Prism right? NO. It just IS. Just like someone recently pointing out that Oliver Cromwell setup the first post office for the PURPOSE of spying, government eavesdropping happens and will continue to happen. Prism is the latest example of people getting the government they deserve.
yeah kind of like those 40 or so people Woods and Doherty saved in Benghazi…odd how not a one them has surfaced…
Robert, it’s a law of nature, so-called conservative gov’ts always expand government.
You can look at every single ‘conservative’ gov’t in recent history with the single exception of the Sask Party in Saskatchewan, and they aren’t even ‘conservative’. Every. Single. One. Expanded. The. Gov’t.
So don’t get so high and mighty thinking Conservatives are something special. They’re just the same thing as liberals and dippers but have different spending priorities.
So the members of these committees either did not know this was going on (stupid and incompetent) or they knew and now act surprised and indignant.
So far as I see … every last person on the planet with current and competent technical knowledge understood that the tools are there to perform this sort of surveillance and that there was nothing stopping the government from doing it.
As far back as the 1982 people I worked with in the telecom industry were openly discussing the mechanisms of capturing this sort of data and the tools for analyzing the data.
Guys like Snowden exist all the time and openly talk about what they do. IMO the only distinctive thing about Snowdon’s “revelations” is actually getting people to pay attention to him. What he had to say was not new or in any way a secret except in the sense that it was not deliberately made public prior to his antics.
The only legal issue is that he broke the declaration and oath of secrecy in his security contract.
This makes Snowden a petty criminal rather than the overblown accusations of treason.
“Snowden, I don’t like him at all, but we would never have known what happened if he hadn’t told us.”
Actually, not strictly true. The American public would have to have waited at most until 1 September 2036 to know what happened.
Take a look at the bottom right corner of the NSA PRISM “Overview” slide.
You can look at every single ‘conservative’ gov’t in recent history with the single exception of the Sask Party in Saskatchewan, and they aren’t even ‘conservative’. Every. Single. One. Expanded. The. Gov’t.
The Sask Party also expands government, so you’re batting 0 except for Klein. The BC Liberals and Campbell and the Federal Liberals and Martin were the only serious cutters aside from Klein.
You can stop snooping. Redphone, Textsecure. Silent Circle if you’re willing to pay.
You get a big bingo for that one. They are more progressive than conservative, and PM Harper’s Conservatives, while they have accomplished much we are thankful for, have been seriously compromised from their Reform roots by the progressive side and by pragmatic political pandering to a large segment of voter LIVs who only look for more entitlements.
Loki, and the Soviets were very good at surveillance of the people through a network of informers.
Actually, while the Sask Party has increased spending, of which almost all has gone into rebuilding infrastructure, primarily roads and long term care facilities, the number of government employees has shrunk, even while the population of the province grows. Lance gets an A+.
Does this include employees of those crown corps Brad Wall has sworn to uphold and love?
Crown Corps run completely on their own economic merits just like any other business. They have separate budgets and boards. The government sets basic priorities, and that’s about it. All major Crown Corps are profitable and pay into the treasury, they do not take from the treasury. One can get into a discussion as to whether there should be Crown Corps., and whether they offer value, but they are not government entities like say, a ministry, nor do they gain revenue from taxation. Furthermore, any debt Crown Corps incur is repaid like any other corp., through revenue gained via product sales, not taxation. Apples … Oranges.
“…All major Crown Corps are profitable and pay into the treasury…”
Profitable my arse.
You’ll change that tune when interest rates rise and farmers can’t repay Farm Credit Corporation(FCC) the ridiculous amounts of money it loaned out for milk quota and land purchases – and the only ‘shareholders’ (again) are us poor, stupid, taxpayers.
If they were ‘profitable’ Ontario Hydro wouldn’t be sticking us with a ‘debt retirement’ charge.
Jamie: I’m talking Saskatchewan … not any other province; and I’m talking current realities, not future predictions based on opinion. The point was whether or not Wall is shrinking government, and technically, he is.
Thanks for the clarification.
May your present extend to the future. 😉
Crown Corps run completely on their own economic merits just like any other business.
AHAHAHAHHAhAHAHA yeah thanks now I know I can avoid taking you seriously in the future. Another conservative statist.
So Wall is shrinking government except for Crown Corps he favors and the money plows into ‘infrastructure’ which gets a free pass from ‘conservative’ types because it is magical and always good.
LAS: Considering that the former socialist regime had left the road system in a complete shambles, unable to support the current boom, and that long term care facilities were next to non-existant, what do you suggest? The whole focus has been to unleash the private sector; and it’s working. The province is leading the country in employment creation as a percentage of population, and in tax reductions from their former highs; and has an exploding population, so what … we are to support a booming economy on gravel roads; and toss our elderly into the ditch. What is “conservative” to you? A provincial government with a tiny office in the local church? The focus is on creating an infrastructure that can support the unprecedented economic growth … growth that is based completely on unleashing free enterprise. And, it’s working.