A friend, knowing I’m finalizing my car purchase today, called this morning. He insisted that I, just hours before the sale is to be completed, contact a car broker acquaintance of his to see if I can get a better deal elsewhere. This would mean foregoing all the time the salesman and other personnel at the dealership have spent with me, test driving several cars, arranging financing, etc.
I immediately rejected my friend’s suggestion, as I view it as unethical. I won’t be changing my view but am curious whether you might have a different one?
If you get a better deal elsewhere you can still assauge your conscience by informing the nice people at the dealership and giving them a chance to match the price. Ethically speaking, they should have offered you the lowest price possible from the begining. The very fact that this is a game where they try and get you to pay the highest price acceptable to you, there are no ethical issues to walking away at any point in teh process prior to finalization.
Agree with your stand. If you feel you have made a good-faith agreement with the salesman, have confidence that he/she will stand behind the product, and did not make the deal because the salesperson promised the lowest price possible, then there is no good reason to go elsewhere.
This other dealership might save you 500 or 1000$ bucks up front, but what about the cost of your time to start the process over, and the chance you are taking that the other dealer will not provide inferior support to the one you have already dealt with and spent enough time with to be comfortable buying a car from.
Some would call me a sucker for this kind of opinion, but it doesn’t interfere with my sleep at night.
You’re right, Robert, but sooooo old school. Congrats.
I am all for loyalty and ethics, however it seems like there are less of each every day.
Is this an actual purchase, or an allegorical treatment of debt-ceiling negotiations? 😉
If the deal isn’t signed, it isn’t unethical.
Many people don’t know this but in Alberta a person can, by law, renounce a signed contract within 48 hours if they get buyer’s remorse.
Ralph, if I may, let me present you with a completely different scenario: Imagine you want to buy a nice digital camera. Let’s say it costs somewhere between $500 – $1500.
Do you feel it is ethical or unethical to walk into a camera store to get the salesman to show you all the features of the camera, knowing fully well though that you can & will get it at a much better price from an online store?
I agree with your position and usually do something similar – if the price of the two places is reasonably close, I’ll go with the one that put in the effort. That being said, if we take this to the logical conclusion, would you be willing to pay a bit more each time you make a visit to the dealer after agreeing on a price? Why not?
Dennis Prager talks about that regularly. He would agree with your decision, for what it’s worth. And he would adamantly oppose Robert W’s idea. You are stealing the salesman’s time.
Eighty percent of me says stick with the deal you have. The other twenty percent says list why each is better or worse, with half of that twenty strongly suspecting that for various reasons (like recalls/fixes) the dealer is a better option in the long run. As long as you arranged non-dealer financing.
Take up your friend’s offer the next time you purchase.
Daryl, the question you posed is an interesting one. As a consultant myself, I’m in the business of charging people for my time … once I’ve signed a contract with them. They know this and I know this.
In the case of a car dealership or a realtor or a retail store clerk, the relationship is not based on the amount of time you spend with them. Once again, these terms are understood by both parties from the get go.
In the case of my car, I did a whole lot of research for weeks before I ever set foot in a dealership. I knew the specific model I wanted and just test drove it to confirm that its performance & features were as I had expected they would be. I also drove another brand of car at the same dealership for comparison’s sake.
There has been a lot of back & forth since last Thursday, when I first walked into the dealership and I do feel an obligation to carry forth with THEM, should I choose to buy their brand of car.
Perhaps I’m highly biased because in my own business of consulting, I’ve had sooooooooo many people “kick the tires”, so to speak, completely wasting my time. This has reinforced my determination not to waste the time of others.
I agree with daryl above.
We hear about the death of the family store due to the corporate giants. This is a case where an idea can be put into practice.
Another way of looking at it is through the old saying, ‘walk a mile in my shoes”. Put yourself in the salesman’s shoes.
Kathy, I believe you improperly worded your comment. The idea of looking elsewhere was not mine and should not be attributed to me.
Interesting that you mentioned Dennis Prager’s name. The scenario about the camera shop is something I heard on his show!
Constructing a good working relationship is important for large-
cost items. And remember, no matter how long you look,
you could always get a better deal. Sooner or later. What is
your time worth? What is the convenience of having the new
car today?
A friend of mine follows an intermediate approach. With a tentative deal made, if he finds a better offer he will bully the first seller into giving him the same.
Layton is having a press conference. He doesn’t look good,at all.
He’s taking a leave of absence,with an eye towards returning.
Good luck.
It’s morally wrong to willfully take the worse deal. It’s an intentional waste of resources, and thus, a crime against nature. Not a crime that will send you to prison, but one that will haunt you for the remainder of your life.
Wally & John: Your comments could have come directly out of my own brain!
To reiterate what I said earlier, I always do tons of research on my own before I ever talk with a human being. Such is readily possible these days on most everything because of the Internet.
I do respect the time of others and don’t want to waste their time if I have little to no intention of buying anything from them. I realize that some convince themselves otherwise with this logic: “Well, they’re there anyhow so what’s the big deal?” But the fact is, that while a salesperson is wasting their time with you, they could be engaging in a profitable business transaction with an actual buyer.
I’m having this exact choice right now and I’m leaning toward rewarding the effort with loyalty. The fact that I’m a noob and making the biggest purchase of my life puts a high value on service and trust for me.
Dystopian Optimist, your comment has to rank right up there with those who cry in front of trees.
I’ll try to soldier on after today, knowing that my “crime against nature” troubles you so. LOL
Having sold cars for a Ford dealership for five years this story is a familiar one. Dealing on a car is full of steps and missteps ethical and otherwise. Essentially, your salesman is your after sale advocate for the time you own that car. A valued salesman packs a lot of weight within the dealership and can be an important part of your automobile ownership. A cheaper price going into the deal does not necessarily benefit the purchaser over the long haul.
It’s called “a job”.
Some days good, others not so good, me thinks car salesmen are pretty thick skinned.
Any car I’ve ever bought was reduced thousands below the “final offer” whit a little extra bartering patience. They still made good money from the sale, simply not a skinning.
It would be unethical in my opinion.
I don’t set foot into a car dealership until I confirm the exact car I want is on the lot – this is usually done on a Sunday when they are closed. I don’t need to get the absolute lowest price but I do want to have the feeling that the salesman has given me a fair deal and he has made something on his side as well – he has a family to feed to I assume.
Here is a different point of view:
Would the dealership hestitate to sell the car you have picked out if someone came in and offered them more money for it before you signed?
I try to make a habit of paying for what I’m actually using.
A hobby store near me provides space for customers to work on their current projects. You’re allowed to bring your own tools, paints, etc. For those of us with smallish apartments, this is a definite service.
The store doesn’t charge for this; it’s a marketing expense because it gets people into the store. The thing is, everything they sell I can get much, much cheaper online. So much cheaper it’s really hard to justify buying it over the counter. But by not buying anything from them I am breaking the unspoken agreement that the rooms are for paying customers, even though they don’t enforce that or anything and have outright said that I don’t need to buy anything to use the rooms.
So instead, I drop a $20 or so into the till once a month or so and tell them “that’s for use of the space”. They always say “oh, the space is free”, and I have to tell them yes, but I will never buy anything from here because your prices are over-inflated and you can’t special order the items I want. But I am using up your store resources, and I am willing to pay for that.
In a situation like Robert’s I might look at what I think the services I’ve consumed are worth (salesman’s time, availability of car for test drive, etc.) and tell them “Sorry, I can get a much better deal elsewhere. If you can’t match their price, then I will compensate you for the time you’ve spent.” I think this both avoids the implied ripoff and also serves to send a signal that their prices are too high.
I applaud your integrity, Robert. I know a fellow who works at a high-end, customer/service-friendly audio store. One of the banes of his (and the owner’s) existence is people who take up the staff’s time by auditioning speakers/pre-amps/amps/cables for hours on end — often over the course of days, or even weeks — with the full (and unannounced, obviously) intention of deciding which particular piece of gear they want and then buying it cheap from some distributor who doesn’t have to spend time and money on staff and auditioning rooms, etc.
On the car front, one thing to consider (albeit you may already have factored this into your decision) is that if you’re buying a car stateside and bringing it back (as you indicated in a previous post that you were going to do) you may lose the warranty coverage, unless you’re willing to bring (tow? airlift?) it to the US for repairs; it’s my understanding that Canadian auto retailers won’t honour the service/warranty agreements of cars purchased in the US, so by buying a car cheaper in the US you may lose that rather valuable perk.
Leaving that aside, if I’d used up a great deal of an US auto retailer’s time with multiple test drives and so on, I would feel honour-bound to purchase from that retailer.
You’re a good man, Robert W.
You’re doing the right thing. The amount of money that’s at stake is less important than maintaining your principle of “you treat me fair, I’ll treat you fair”.
It depends on the difference in price – $100, $500 $1000 or more. The bigger the difference in price the more likely I’d go for the better deal. Obviously, if the difference is substantial the first salesman/dealership was not giving you their best deal thus ending the rewarding loyalty and effort argument. As mentioned above, I would give the first salesman the chance to match the price.
Is that greed? Sure is. Consumers being greedy forces companies to improve their business model and lowers costs for everyone. Think Borders bookstore vs. Amazon.
“If you get a better deal elsewhere you can still assauge your conscience by informing the nice people at the dealership and giving them a chance to match the price”
I agree with Ralph. It’s rare to see the two words,”ethics” and “auto” used in the same sentence. I have seen so many auto dealers attempt to scam the customer with extra charges for freight,documentation,PDI, worthless extended warranties,etc.
You are the customer,they are the seller,they are obligated to give you the best price and service or you should take your business elsewhere.
I’m a construction subcontractor. When I put in a bid, it has to be the lowest,or I don’t get the contract.
Same as the camera store, tell them upfront what price you’ve gotten on the internet,and ask them if they can match it.
I’ve found many times that the local store will come down enough to not bother ordering over the’net,after waiting the delivery time,and adding in shipping costs.
But sometimes,the local store is simply charging too much for an item,and they don’t get my business. Example: a rifle scope,local store wanted $399, Cabela’s in Winnipeg asked $299, I bought it online from a U.S. dealer for $202,S&H increased the price to $230.
Sorry, but I work too hard for my money to give away that high a percentage.
The car dealership will love you for that loyalty. They bank on it, manipulate it, in fact. This is a business deal, however, and loyalty, or some feeling that you owe them the deal will only work against you. Be assured, the dealership has no such feelings about you, and they will absolutely make you pay the most you are willing to let them. That’s why brokers have a business.
Klapper,
The fact that he can buy the car cheaper elsewhere is first-hand evidence that the salesman is NOT treating him fair. It’s proof that the salesman has quoted a price that’s too high. To reward the unethical salesman with the sale is morally repugnant.
If Robert buys that car, he’ll regret it. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of his life.
Been there.
Had my local dealer tow a dead snowmobile off a frozen lake 40 miles from town. No charge!!!
Nothing like having a dealer in your corner.He’ll back his customers, unless he’s a dink.
You make it possible for him to make a living. Local all the way.
I totally agree with you, I’ve worked the better part of my life on commission and when you really work hard to serve your client and then get slapped upside the head it really sucks.
As a former car salesman, and someone who works on straight commission, I offer the following:
The car dealership has invested millions of dollars in inventory, signage, franchise fees, etc. (The list is quite long.) The salesman has made the effort to learn his product- and I’m fully aware that the nature of the car business makes it rather difficult for a customer to land on a “good” salesman with the brokerage business only exacerbating that issue- plus take the risk of trying to make a living on straight commission.
Now, if he’s like the guys I used to work with, when you bring your vehicle in for service, he might offer to run you back to work at your schedule instead of the circuitous shuttle van’s route. If your car needs an unscheduled service, such as a recall on a power steering hose, he might make arrangements to get you a loaner, etc.
I could go on at length, but you get the picture. Maybe the service advisor sets your teeth on edge. Your salesman can be your liaison, there. The broker will do none of that.
Then there’s the hard reality of the brokerage. How much can he actually save you? If, say the car you are looking at is averaging a $1500 gross margin at area dealerships, what are the odds a unit will go out the door to a broker for less than a $1500 gross. No matter what he says, the broker is still a retail customer, and whoever he sells that unit to is the second owner, which can have warranty implications. Because of dealership franchise rules, any brokered deal is still a used car regardless of whether or not the car is ever registered.
Then there is the trade-in, which may or may not be the case, here. But, if you’re trading in a used car, you have a better chance of getting a good deal than if you’re not. I know, goes against conventional wisdom but it’s true. Look at it this way: a trade has potential profit margin, so it behooves the dealer to shave some gross on the sold unit in order to get a decent trade for re-sale. Do brokers take trades? No. Do you get less real dollars when you trade than if you sell it outright? Yes. No. Maybe. Depends on your unit. Do you have the patience to deal with some of the people who you will be obligated to deal with when you try to sell your trade? Don’t know, but I do know that people can be real jerks when they go car shopping, even on a private deal. Plus, you’ve either got to keep it clean for showing or not drive it while it’s for sale. Then there are the peepee pullers, the “will you take payments?”, the no-shows, the “I couldn’t get financed”, ad infinitum.
One of the biggest fallacies out there centers around how much car dealerships make on many units. I have friends in the car business, and can say with complete certainty that I can go and buy a brand new 4×4 4dr. pick-up with leather and a sunroof on a 2G gross without even trying. If the idea of a salesman making $500 on a $45K purchase seems outrageous, then there’s something wrong.
Digest this- a top performer in most stores will sell 2-3 units a week, with the average commission at considerably less than $1000, that’s a lot of work to make 60-80K per year.
Congratulations on your new car! Also congratulations on being in a tiny, vanishing minority of consumers who are at least passing familiar with the word “ethical”.
Talking to a local dealer, getting information, taking a test drive, negotiating price, determining service options, etc, and then buying the car at the lowest possible price somewhere else online is more the norm these days.
I have no great love for car dealers, but if I like the salesman and the dealership, and they are helpful during the shopping process, then I assign a value to that. The absolute lowest price won’t necessarily win the day, because I place value in the relationship and after-sale service provided by my local dealership.
However, if the negotiated price for the car is significantly out of whack, then I will let my local salesperson know about it, so they can respond if they want to.
Best Regards,
e
.::.
Good decision Robert.
I usually tell the salesman that we are shopping and will price compare. Be up front.
The rat has a point about car dealerships though, although this does not generally apply to most other family owned retail business.
The small family owned retail businesses generally give good service, rewards for loyalty quite often show up and they are a pleasure to patronize.
worked in the car industry for 15 years, there are very few sales people that are ethical
go for the better deal
After they ripped me off for almost $300, plus $200 towing to dealership to program new key, no loyalty from me. I could buy a whole computer for that much.
If you like the vehicle, and like the dealer, is it really worth your while to pi$$ around to try and save a few hundred dollars at a broker?
IMHO, brokers are for fleet buyers or people who buy and use up vehicles as a commodity. Ordinary folks, for whom a car is a big expense and a long-term commitment are probably better off with a good dealer. (With a bad dealer, all bets are off.)
Haven’t bought a new vehicle since 1981. Now that I can afford to buy a new one, there’s practically nothing out there I like well enough to step up and plonk down the money for. I prefer to buy used, do my own servicing where practical, and keep the depreciation in my pocket.
I’m a self-employed tradesman. I’ve learned that the value of a deal can never be completely measured in the cash price. I would certainly look at the potentially lower prices the friend suggests for the same car, but with a view to letting the salesman know at the last minute that “I know I could have got a lower price elsewhere, but I’m still buying from you because your price is good enough and I appreciate the effort you have put in and I expect your company is going to treat me fairly in the future service I’m going to be paying you for.” It may not work out as well as I hope, but people who choose to do business with me are deciding to trust me and give me a chance to trade them fair value for their money. I believe in doing the same for others. It’s why we have an economy that creates the opportunity for material wealth and comfort for anyone who will put the effort in, instead of sneaking around snatching and eating each other’s children. You eventually end up dead anyway, the only difference you can make is in how you live.
Depends on the salesman or re my last two recent purchases, young saleswoman.
I like busy no nonsense people, young or old, no games, and the less I see of the
sales manager, the better I like it. That’s for new cars and trucks where things are
very competitive. Used vehicles are a different story. If you need a particularly
scarce make, model, year, no loyalty enters into the search, price, or sale.
It’s like being the regular customer of a good restaurant vs running into McDonald’s or BurgerKing.
.
I agree with your position. I once moved a deal to a different dealer but that was because six months had gone by with no news of the car ordered unless I drove by the dealer. Then everytime I walked in, there’d be a new salesman. I had been a continual lookie-lou at the dealer I moved the order to but had never spoken with the sales team except to say that I was just looking. One day as I was once again over drooling at their inventory, their top salesman walked over and addressed me by name. In the course of the discussion he said he could get my car quicker and for $1k less. We took the offer to the original dealer who would not meet it. Then the order became so late it slipped to the next model year at the new dealer. When we sat down to sign the deal, they had taken another grand off the price because of the extended wait. This was for a ’99 [originally ’98] Corvette coupe with a stick. The stick was the problem since Chevy misread the number of manual transmissions the boomers would actually want and built primarily automatics.
In any event, the little car in your picture is absolutely rediculous but I applaud you for supporting the local economy as well as sticking by your dealer. The Minister of Finance at my house always sets rediculous upper thresholds whenever I get a car jones. I’ve taken to the internet where extended silence can work wonders after an initial inquiry. For whatever reason, it works quite well in Kansas and Missouri. Dealers around here yawn. Of course, it means you have to work with their existing inventory so sticks are hard to come by. Still, last year a 2-door [the way God intended] ’10 Jeep Wrangler Sahara, Rescue Green, beaucoup options that no self-respecting Wrangler should offer, all for $25K.
Now that you’ve piqued our curiosity, get a quote from the broker. Then let your salesman have a look at it. He’ll point out what the broker may not be including. If the salesman is within a $1000 (on a $40k vehicle) go with him. Otherwise his manager may give him room to give you a better deal. If the price difference is way more than you consider reasonable, your salesman will understand your decision.
In general, buying a car is almost all about how much you are going to pay and and the dealer knows that. You are not “stealing” or wasting anyone’s time during that process unless you deliberately set out to do so. A decent car salesman should be able to spot a real prospect from a tire kicker and move on to someone else if you are not serious.
You’re not in a cooperative situation in buying a car from a dealer, you’re in an adversarial one. The dealer almost never will offer his best price to start. Your ability to negotiate is mostly what determines what you pay and making the dealer believe that you have options and you will use them is part of negotiating.
If you have agreed on terms, Robert, and you then jump to a broker for a couple of hundred dollars, perhaps you are a bit of a cad. But, what if you find out that the broker can save you thousands?
“There has been a lot of back & forth since last Thursday, when I first walked into the dealership and I do feel an obligation to carry forth with THEM, should I choose to buy their brand of car.”
Car sales is a bit of an anomaly among consumer purchases in that it’s a two-stage process — you first decide on exactly the item you want and then you negotiate the price – that requires interaction with salespeople at both stages. If there was some way one could complete stage one (up to and including test-drives) without taking up a salesperson’s time (as you might with some othe consumer item where price negotiation is acceptable), then your present ethical conundrum would more or less disappear. Alas, as far as car-buying goes, simply to be an informed consumer (e.g., by road-testing each vehicle on your short-list) means you have to engage a salesperson and thus consume his/her professional time. It’s the way the business is structured, so no need to feel too guilty about that.
In any case, it sounds like you were honest and upfront throughout your dealings with your salesperson (e.g., you didn’t go in with the full intention of buying the car elsewhere), which is really the ethical test in this case. The nature of the customer-salesperson relationship is such that, until you sign on the proverbial dotted line, there is no actual obligation — legal or moral — for you to buy the car from him/her. So, a decision, even at this late stage, to take your business elsewhere wouldn’t be strictly UNETHICAL in my view.
That said, just because an action isn’t unethical doesn’t mean it’s necessarily desirable to do it. The fact that you FEEL obligated, in the absence of an actual moral obligation, is to your credit. You believe that your salesperson has earned your business, and you want to acknowledge and reward that effort, even though from a purely financial point of view, you might be losing out. That’s a noble trade-off. There’s more to life than maximizing one’s economic efficiency.
Last thought: who’s to say that your friend’s car broker can even get you a better deal? These days, with online services like Car Cost Canada, one can get a pretty good sense of what a fair final price looks like for any given make, model, and trim well before they set foot in a showroom. Perhaps you’ve already negotiated the best possible on-the-road figure, in which case you’re both ethically unencumbered and economically maximized. The best of all worlds.
I totally agree with you Rob, your morality is one of many of your qualities, keep it, no matter what! I don’t agree with the fact that if somebody offers you a better deal, you should go for it, unless you find out before all the paper work, all the trouble with the financial set up, and everything, but after all that, no!
Love the way you are!!!
I sold on commission once upon a time. Rare was the customer (even family members) who sought me out when they returned to the store to make a purchase. I expected people to shop around and get the best price but what I didn’t expect was the careless way they treated salespeople who spent time with them. Good on you.
Robert,
You are buying nuts and bolts so this is no time to be idealistic. Get you friends broker to give a price for the same car so you know how much you are paying for your idealism. In my opinion, you are morally obligated, as a free citizen of a capitalist economy, to consider the lower cost product delivery option. Choose as you will, but know the cost difference and you will have no regrets.
Respectfully
Rick
It’s your money.
Nicely done Robert.
I view this as the equivalent of going into a bricks and mortar store, checking out the merchandise, getting product information from the proprietor (which is part of the price of what they are “selling”), and then walking out and ordering the item from eBay.
It can be done by some short term, but if everyone does it longer term, those local experts will be out of business.
While i appreciate and respect your moral decision And i truley mean that , i would have also respected your decision to investigate the possibility of saving’s , of course i know you would have gone into the dealership , and faced the man who had spent his time with you and told him the honest truth at least that way you could feel better about who you are .
Having said all of that people that shop at wal-mart and still complain about prices need to know two thing’s first of all you are the reason companies move everything off shore ie. to china , the second thing you should know is that we really in that circumstance don’t have a free market as there is virtually no tarif’s on anything brought in from other countries including china itm akes it almost imposible to be a competative company in canada becasue of this fact . Not to mention if we had lower taxes people would be able to pay more for there product’s and possible start turning this ship around F!CK china who cares about them …let me make this clear they certainly don’t give a sh!t about you or the environment or human life so why do we keep forcing our companies to go over seas …youk now i bought a set of paradgim speakers made built and manufactured in canada i could not be happier ..and they were less than bose but now bose and harmon kardon get there stuff made on an assembly line in china look at evey on,line review comparing bose to paradigm paradigm rate a far higher quality and are actually marginally cheaper than bose and harmon kardon …go figure ..it can be done folks it can be don …ohh yeah i also bought my lite hawk remote helicopter that was madei n canada as well very good quality and durable to …anyway . goodo n you for paying your fair share ROBERT!!!