So, we have companies bankrupted from CSA’s sales of counterfeit certifications and their subsequent dereliction of responsibility to ensure compliance with minimum requirements of safety law. We have CSA taking a lot of money from industry for what CSA tells them are genuine certifications, and customers like MCM paying a lot of money for products they’re told are safe and legal. We have towns like Asquith barring use of units bearing CSA’s counterfeited marks and real estate boards issuing Province-wide public warnings against CSA certified importations. Purchasers can’t use the products they paid for, can’t install them or re-export them elsewhere, can’t sue CSA for damages due to their immunities from litigation, and can’t seek a refund from the manufacturer because unknowingly buying CSA’s faked certifications put the manufacturers out of business too.
The only party left standing, the one holding all the ill-gotten gains, is CSA and their [Professional Engineers of Ontario] engineers. And what did PEO do about that?
The Decline continues.
The PEO is nearly as corrupt as the CSA.
I’m registered as a member of PEO. I can hardly be considered corrupt, but I am embarrassed as this matter taints the entire profession.
Another reason to leave the failed confederation of Canada.
And why cant our federal government agency be charged with complicity for not shutting down this mess ? Surely the notoriety of allowing these thugs to continue their operation while we are in an election year should be enough to remove their blindfolds !
Most of the Prof. Engineering Society’s et al are marketing scams designed to promote the role of engineering. As if everyone had lost all commonsense and reason.
Take Alberta for example. You can no longer legally build your own roof trusses. They have to be stamped and approved by an Injuneer. This was always a part of the Carpentry Trade.
When you built a house you hired a Journeyman Carpenter and he built them for you.
Along came the Injuneers. I asked one once, show me the thousands of people who have been killed by rooves collapsing on their heads over the last 1000 years. Only an Injuneer would be stupid enough to build a roof that would fall on themselves. Just another scam. Over my many years in Trades as a Tradesman and Superintendent of Trades, whenever an Injuneer was foolishly placed in charge of a project it never came in on time or ever under budget.
Yes you need Injuneer’s but they should be kept in the office on a leash doing their calculations which always should be reviewed seriously by a Senior Tradesman.
I always loved Injuneers as a Tradesman they kept my family well fed and clothed because 90% of them are arrogant useless nimcompoops. Pay me now or pay me later.
Most of the Prof. Engineering Society’s et al are marketing scams designed to promote the role of engineering.
I’m a P. Eng. in 3 provinces. The professional associations were established in their respective jurisdictions by legislation, arising from matters of public safety.
are we safer?
Yes we are. When there’s an earthquake near Vancouver, how many houses fall down? What’s the death count?
How about winter storms? How about deaths from indoor air pollution? Safety and standards are built into our society.
Too far sometimes? probably. But you burning your house down is a risk to my house next door, and vice verse, hence the building code applies to both of us.
Another nail in Confederated Canada’s Coffin.Our Eastern Comrades have a comfort with corruption that we lack.
Hardly surprising as fraud seems to be their chosen skill set.
Engineering was once an honourable profession.
However now it attracts professionals who are innumerate and very special.
Naturally the “professional Body” will cover for their own.
This is Going Along to Get Along.
As civilization ,civic structures anyway,falls apart when the don’t knows and didn’t do nuttin’s assume control, we have no choice.
Abandon these corrupt incompetents to their well deserved fate.
If we fail to isolate ourselves from the fools and bandits,Western Infrastructure is doomed.
You cannot leave a better future to your kids,when it is build on fraud and substandard construction.
As a technologist (electronic) nothing scared me more than an engineer with tools in its hands. I would stop what I was doing to go make sure that nothing was damaged, or worse (damaged and left not repaired or not reported).
A couple of times I had to stop/control the bleeding.
Sorry, but this doesn’t even warrant a shrug in post-national Canada. The broad support for the SNC Lavalin DPA makes obvious the ruling class has a much different view of ethical conduct than do everyday people. So why not reset the standard for all types of institutional corruption. This country is a cake that the ruling class will cut any way they wish, the opinions of the little people be damned. That goes for quaint notions such as accountability and integrity as much as it does for the Federal budget.
Engineers, like most “professionals” thrive from guild socialism. The state (provinces) grant those guilds exclusive right to practice which means protected from competition. Take the example of the roof truss. For years, carpenters have used tables originally designed or proofed out by engineers but long since becoming public domain. Now , each replication of previous design work extracts a fresh engineering pimp fee from the customers with municipal building inspectors requiring a fresh engineer’s stamp. Same thing with bridge designs.
I’m not suggesting that anyone should design all structures but by allowing professions to self-regulate without the state “right to practice”, liability constraints would easily and more affordably replace the state.
The CSA along with ISO and any number of certification outfits should remain voluntary without the state’s corrupting influence.
Engineers, like most “professionals” thrive from guild socialism. The state (provinces) grant those guilds exclusive right to practice which means protected from competition.
That right to practice was granted to the engineering profession through legislation. The issue has never been competition, but public safety.
I’m registered in 3 provinces, including Ontario. The first clause in the respective codes of ethics clearly states that the public welfare comes first and foremost.
Well yes always the Public Welfare the dead don’t pay their bills. And to John those tables were proofed out by Master Tradesmen before there were Injuneers. I always like to hear fantasy stories of how Injuneers built the pyramids. And waterwheels and windmills and great cathedrals etc. Ha Ha Ha.
Well yes always the Public Welfare the dead don’t pay their bills.
Engineering as a profession was established through legislation as a result of a number of incidents involving public safety. Often, one of the factors was that people who were unqualified were involved in the design of the structures or machinery that failed.
It’s the same reason why no one can practice medicine without being an MD.
We get your point, but we have the design of roof trusses figured out, we don’t need to reinvent the wheel with every new identical roof truss.
Liability insurance can do the same thing without government involvement. Right to practice legislation does not prevent engineering disasters nor Doctors from killing their patients. Try getting insurance on a bridge designed by a high risk individual not associated with a professional engineering association or proven safety record.
It’s not a case of re-inventing the wheel. A lot of engineering is pretty basic and doesn’t require much exotic math or physics. Many such designs are reliable because they are simple, relatively straightforward, and have been tested through experience because they have been used numerous times.
However, the important thing is ensuring that the design is in compliance with applicable codes and standards and can withstand the conditions for which it is intended.
Not every engineering practitioner carries liability insurance and it’s not necessarily a matter of competence or risk. A mate of mine had a one-man practice involved in research and development. The designs he produced would have been new and unproven. Insuring his work would have been quite difficult.
Doctors bury their mistakes, Injuneers make revisions. BA do not ever take this personal I happen to like you. Just Banter. Lots of shoddy tradesmen out there as well. Try and get a car fixed or good luck finding a good plumber.
Watcher:
No offense taken. I’ve worked with a number of my fellow practitioners over the years and, in some cases, I wonder how they managed to get their degrees. Others conducted themselves in such a manner that they were close to being struck from the register.
I concluded that many I’ve known weren’t particularly interested in the technical aspects of engineering. (For example, a number of my undergrad classmates eventually ended in management–I know of 3 who became corporate VPs.) I, on the other hand, wanted to be more of a backroom boffin. I made less money that way, but it was more in keeping with my inclinations and, ultimately, more satisfying.
Engineers make a lot of revisions and, unfortunately, many of those were necessary because something failed and someone got hurt or died. (Examples are the de Havilland Comet and the Apollo command module.) It doesn’t mean that we’re incompetent or irresponsible. Sometimes something slips between the cracks because either nobody noticed something wrong or it never occurred to anyone that it was. But engineers learn from their failures and one result from a mishap can be improved safety.
By the way, I have the honour of being the son of tradesmen. Both my parents were journeymen in their respective trades and I learned many of my work habits, including being careful and paying attention to detail, from them.
Just what my profession needs after the SNC embarrassment: another black eye.
Is there another black eye coming? I worked in forestry in centeral BC for a while. I am pleased with the efforts govt. and industry put into salvaging the bugwood forest. The first time I came into the mill when they were cutting bugwood it was immediately apparent that there was much more dust and it was much finer. I foolishly assumed that your colleagues would prevail upon management to make the prudent investments. Nobody wants their mill to blow up. Right?BOOM! I was not injured. I lost friends.
No one will convince me that the engineers failed to mention the danger. That they failed to move management in a situation so obvious, even to a high school dropout, is deeply unsettling.
There is a custom truss manufacturer just up the road. The only thing they have changed in the manufacture of their trusses in the last thirty yeas is that the cut standing live pine they once used has been replaced by cut standing dead pine. I hope you can assure me that your colleagues have not assumed cut standing dead pine to have the same strength as cut standing live pine?
Thank you for your posts. I often don’t feel a need to post here because you have already said it better than I could.
Thank you for your posts. I often don’t feel a need to post here because you have already said it better than I could.
You’re welcome.
The codes of ethics for the provinces I’m registered in clearly state that an engineer is required to speak up when something’s wrong and to clearly state the consequences if the advice is ignored. It’s not unusual for management to over-rule an engineer and the results can be costly.
Perhaps the best-known example of that was what happened when Roger Boisjoly, who worked for Morton Thiokol, warned NASA against launching STS 51-L/Challenger in cold weather conditions. We all know what happened after that.
I myself have done the same thing at one place I worked. My superiors over-ruled me, the proverbial hit the fan as I suggested it would, and I’m sure that was one reason I was canned a few months later.
By the way, Rudyard Kipling commented on engineering through his poems The Sons of Martha and Hymn of Breaking Strain.
Thanx for bringing this to light, for all these years.
It will help fix it.
Man oh Man! Will that dirty old CSA ever get straightened out when Andy “Tiger” Scheer is PM!
Thank you Kate for keeping this CSA crap in front of us. I am an Electrical Contractor and I don’t trust their oversight and regulation through provincial agencies. P.S.Knight did a great service to our industry over the years, but never more than taking on this Goliath. My fellow electricians out there – support the underdog in this battle – buy your code book and simplified code from PS Knight publishing
Public safety – or even the laws of physics – don’t seem to be all that important in Winnipeg….
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/engineers-pursue-disciplinary-action-traffic-lights-1.4741623
Apologies for the CBC link, they seem to be the only ones interested in covering this nonsense….
The details concerning the individual’s background are a bit vague. He may not have had the qualifications by virtue of education or experience to make such pronouncements. If he wasn’t, his conduct could be considered a breach of professional ethics.
With all due respect it doesn’t take a university degree to understand the length of time / roadway to stop a moving vehicle at 80 km/hr is significantly more than it is at 50 km/hr. He was merely pointing that out.
All of Winnipeg’s amber lights are programmed to be 4 seconds long, regardless of the speed limit on that stretch of road. The city has been removing advanced flashing warning lights at 80 km/hr at some intersections and replacing them with photo radar cameras , have been removing speed limit signs in high photo radar profit locations, and refuse to follow established national engineering standards for roadways.
The fact that they are ostracizing him instead of agreeing with him casts a pall over their organization…
migawd migawd migawd.
Ive noticed over the decades, there is a phenomenon, a type of behaviour in canadistani bureaucrapcies, a certain deep deep lilt towards a tolerance of very bad level of corruption and indescribable incompetence.
be it politisuhs who for the last thousand years continue to look the other way in the interests of expediancy, law enfarcement officialdom who likewise look the other way in deference to their masters,
and the citoyens who default to the ‘nuttin ise can dooz aboudit’ and adopt the biggest laissez faire attitude Ive ever seen.
what the HELL is it about canadians? where in HELL does this complacency come from? laziness the spawn of prosperity? letting the americans pay for defense of n america, hero worship for the TURDoo clan, crap on our military whose history of success is near flawless?
WHY do we scorn success and hard work and ambition and integrity?
and let GODDAMN FCUKING SHIT like the csa continue for YEARS?
who the HELL is in charge here? where does an avg bloke like me turn to? politishuns? HA.
Ive been trying to get answers form LIEberals AND CONservatists for DECADES and met with silence and threats of trespassing charges when I show up @ the constituency orfice in PERSON demanding they finally *answer the goddamn question will you please*.