By now most will have heard about Quebec City and the CPC Quebec caucus demanding federal funding for an arena to house a non-existent NHL team. Two hundred million is the number I’ve seen. Needless to say that’s a ridiculous number and if the bots in the PMO approve it they should all be recycled and that includes the head guy.
Here in Sask we’ve been talking about a new “multi-purpose facility” (read: stadium for the Riders) in Regina. The previously mentioned head guy was in Saskatoon the other day and explicitly remarked that monies would not be going to sports teams. Thus the Newspeak framing by Saskatchewan politicos of the proposal as a “multi-purpose facility”. Our number is around the $400M mark or so.
Regina will probably apply for several federal infrastructure grants, use those to get loans, find several private partners, sign over a significant amount of municipal taxes, and get the Province to dump a pile in. The federal monies I’ve heard talked about by realists is around the $25-30M mark when all is said and done. There are a lot of pie-in-the-sky kooks who would rather the Feds go whole-hog for a third but there is no-way that happens and quite honestly, if in this Province, at this time, we can’t fund it ourselves then we don’t deserve to have it and it’s too expensive anyway.
If the bots in the PMO follow the advice of the Quebec caucus and go whole hog in Quebec then history had better not repeat itself like a certain CF-18 maintenance contract.
I think it would be far wiser if we all just went Dutch today, eh.
Cheers,
lance
Related – Bernier slams Quebec arena proposition
The answer is a new outdoor field complex, not a dome. Take a look over in Europe at the new soccer fields they are building. They are state of the art and considerably cheaper than a dome.
When all is said and done, $500+ million would be spent on a dome. With that type of investment, as a quarterback, what salary request would you make to lead the Roughriders to victory? What salary request would an O-lineman make to protect such a provincial treasure?
What would you pay to see this play out?
You can look for the links yourself, lance, but Max Bernier has come out against the funding.
(Not rudeness, I’m off for the day in a few minutes.)
there is a little smoke in this story and the rest is another PPG/MSM fan the flames of rumours.
For those interested, BC Place is getting a new $450 million dollar semi retracing roof . . and the payment system is to sell land around the facility for development – new condo’s, hotels a casino etc.
Fun to watch them build it . . . the external roof trusses are really massive.
click the View Live button here
http://tinyurl.com/3yu5j2s
The camera takes pictures every 15 minutes, but it gets “stuck” every so often so patience is required.
The time lapse feature is cool.
The Exterior Camera view gives a good sense of the scale . . .
‘Multi-purpose’ also includes pop concerts which are generally public gatherings to produce large clouds of pot smoke.
It is time to tell Ottawa their job is to only do grand things of relevance to the Nation’s well being, not micro payoffs at the local level. There is only one taxpayer, take less away from us; we’ll decide what we need locally.
Mad Max is against this. Let’s support him. If the feds keep tampering with local issues, the Quebec City arena could become the GZM-like threshold where the taxpayer said “enough”.
I’m hoping the PMSH is actually strategizing that there will be a backlash against the arena to give him cover and to make it clear to the Librano$ that they can’t campaign on pork & largess either.
When politicans gained the ability to deficit finance our society was doomed. The laughable fact is that as culpable as the politicans are the citizens demand it. The Libels realized this early on and have bribed the population for decades. I guess this reality didn’t escape PM Harper.
Our little town of 5000 recently spent $20M on a indoor pool of which the Feds contributed $2M. This town’s population is mostly senior citizens on limited income. The pool was promoted as ‘economic’ development necessary to attract young people. The taxes to build and operate (operating budget of $1.7M per year) this center seem to defy reason and reality.
Radical concept here, but if Regina and Quebec City want new play grounds, how’s about the folks that want them get the financing the old fashioned way and stay out of the taxpayer wallet?
The only govt involment at any level should be the cities making sure the zoning laws are being followed. End of involment.
How to achieve a federal majority government?
Walk softly and carry a big Quebec (conservative/bleu) stick.
(H/T PET Cemetery)
No no no don’t like. I don’t know if this is a ploy or not but it isn’t a safe one. He said yeh ok sorta as long as everyone else gets some. He knows or should people aren’t going to do this so he is just risking seats.
If you spend like a Liberal, I stay home. If there are infrastructure funds left over put it on the deficit.
Good rant, lance.
We’re going through the same BS in Edmonton, where the Oilers owner wants the taxpayers to shell out hundreds of millions of dollars to build a new downtown arena.
All so a bunch of millionaires can finish at the bottom of the heap again.
The geniuses in the PMO better figure out they’d lose more votes in the rest of Canada than they’d gain in Quebec if they went through with this hare-brained scheme.
Steve & the (alleged) Cons: Liberal-Lite, once again.
Voted for the Brokerage Party once, the second time Pierre Trudeau ran. His platform made sense, but. he would have lost without some hijinks in Kingston Ontario.
Returned my sustaining CPC membership card when the Montreal comedy boondoggle was funded. Didn’t believe the Canadian tax payer should continue funding Jean Chretien’s employment gig for the guy who was living in the Chretien basement.
I still receive phone calls whether I will have a CPC lawn sign. (I live on a highway and everyone in the rural area know me as a CPC suporter) Funding for ANY municipal sports facility equals no sign; no financial or vocal or time support for local CPC candidate. Cheers
Maxime for PM 🙂
At this time especially, they should not fund this. I am getting pretty sick of not having a Conservative government.
What is depressing is that if they were a bit more prudent with our money, they would probably have a majority government by now. They shouldn’t have grown government as much as they did going in.
Watching the CPC reminds me of the Smeagol -> Gollum transformation in Lord of the Rings. A majority, my precious, a majority.
The CPC lost my membership at Income Trusts.
syf @10:52
The calculus has to be figured in the number of seats gained or lost, not the number of votes. The CPC could probably afford to give up a few percent of the popular vote in the West, and still retain nearly all their seats. If they can do that, and pick up 5 seats in Quebec, it’s a net gain.
I don’t have to like it, no do you, but that’s how they will be thinking.
I guess if by doing this, the CPC gets a majority, I’m OK with it. At least the money gets spent on an arena which will provide entertainment for thousands of people, and not pi$$ed away down a rathole like the gun registry. Maybe we all need to write our MPs and let them know that if the government agrees to fund that circus, there had damn well better be a quid pro quo for us out here; not necessarily spending, but action.
If the cpc wants to go into political purgatory again then give quebec the cash. Otherwise, let them raise the money from sources other then the backs to taxpayers.
I wish people would stop talking about a majority.
IT ISN’T GOING TO HAPPEN.
The Bloc guarantees that 40 seats are out of play and they are all traditionally conservative seats.
Forget about it. The only way for the CPC to grow is suburbia TO, Mtl and Vancouver. The minute they start appealing to those voters the rest of their base drops them like a hot potato.
Maybe once upon a time if they actually started out like conservatives, now they’ just a muddled mess bouncing from one fire to another.
Here’s the call, Liberal minority next time out.
Re:Quebec raising their own damn money:
On a Maclean’s thread I mentioned that perhaps Quebec would be willing to go for a loan arrangement. They could give up 20 million a year of their 8 billion dollar equalization payment, after 20 years they’ll be have the stadium paid off.
Turf the CBC and everyone can have a new arena. A billion and a half plus dollars a year doesn’t go as far as it used to but it’s not chump change either.
How long is it going to take all you tribalist Harper-bots to figure out that your man is a dud.
Harper couldn’t trounce the LPC with Dion at the head, going into a terrifying economic crisis of all things … think about … Harper couldn’t crush the worst LPC leader ever fielded in the history of this country. And, since then, CPC poll numbers have been stuck … with the base stuck on stupid not willing to face reality.
The worst are the Party Insiders … the mantra at CPC HQ is now 1. Keep your mouth shut 2. Trust Us 3. Send Money
One thing I can say about the LPC … they never put up with losers … you got one chance and if you failed, you were toast. Martin knew that, and fell on his own sword. Harper did not win election number two, against Dion, and he should’ve been gone.
But Harper-bots are more than happy to remain stuck in the mud, rocking the machine back and forth with no hope of ever getting out and just blaming others … it’s the media, the economy … and most pathetic of all … Canadians are too stupid to get Harper (sounds like the DNC).
We’ve been given a golden opportunity by the LPC because they haven’t been able to field a decent leader … the day they do though, the CPC will be crushed like a beer can under the boot of an elephant.
The morning after the election, the one that ushers in an LPC minority, is going to be one sad day … and the bots will blink and scratch their heads … “but he was such a nice guy”.
Well, your nice guy is such a poor communicator, but control freak, that he’s stuck with twisting the party into contortions that resemble more and more the PCs of old. And we all know how well that worked out.
gord:
A made in Canada spending spree for taxpayer-funded facilities for professional sports seems like a dumb idea.
Most objective studies on this issue say there is no net benefit to taxpayers for this type of spending, so why do it?
Pro sports are a business just like, for example a car dealership.
You could argue cars are a social necessity, but anybody who suggests the taxpayers should build car dealerships would be laughed out of any government funding office.
Sounds to me that you’re advocating a “if Quebec gets my money, they I should get everybody else’s money, too” approach.
If owners of NHL franchises want to build arenas, go ahead, but do it on your own nickle. If it’s such a good idea and it’s going to make lots of money, get a bunch of your buddies together and you can turn your millions into billions.
Fill yer boots.
Mr Harper, please, come to your senses. Don’t prostitute your values to try and gain a few votes in Quebec. They will just spit in your face next time you say no. There will no appeasing them, not now not ever.
The real question is where do you want Canadian wealth spent.. The taxation definition is a red herring
I would sooner have TAX/Wealth Dollars spent/invested in LOCAL projects then the NGO’s that piss it on international sniveling. I think I heard that Canada has ~250 NGO’s & Charities that each get ~60% of thier funding from Gov’t Funds,.. That is your wealth .. WHY?
Would you sooner invest in your community, or have Canada’s wealth disapear into a black hole..
First this is a bit of political blackmail on the part of quebcers – especially charest. The cp is trying to save votes not buy them – if they deny funding then they will get clubbed just like they did in the last election over cutting arts funding.
Second there will be fed funds for a QC arena IF QC wins a winter olympic bid – something that is a distinct possibility. This was done in Montreal, Calgary (saddledome) and Vancouver. Look for the Feds to make funding conditional
on QC winning a bid. The QC arena would have laval as a partner and the ticats are looking at a site near mcmaster for the same reason.
The Vancouver Reno of the roof on the stadium there is fully paid for by the the bc govt because the Feds were too slow and their is a high likelihood that both an MLB franchise and/or an NFL franchise could move or be awarded to van very shortly after the Reno has been completed.
Third, it has been something of a tradition/rule that the Feds only fund stadia if there is a post-secondary institution that get use of the facility – commonwealth was funded that way as was macmahon and so will the new wpg stadium (u of m).
Edmonton and Calgary both could go that route for funding for their new arenas but they are reluctant to as it would mean they would either have to lose/donate real-estate and some of the control over the facility and the neighbouring real-estate where they hope to make significant income.
…
Some of the posters here should know better than to just take what they read/hear in the MSM as gospel. The MSM wants to smear the CP as much as possible. By not giving any of the background as noted above they are doing exactly that.
“They will just spit in your face next time you say no”
There is no guarantee that they won’t spit in your face even if you say “yes”.
I wish that posters would refrain from predicting a Liberal minority after the next election. Even the mention of such an abomination makes me physically ill. I like to think that Canadians are not that stupid and, by and large, realize that PMSH, despite his lack of warm and fuzzy characteristics, has led us through some very trying times.
gord I read he has six seats to gain/retain in Quebec. I understand that but what he loses is support and not just votes.
Whatever has been going on at the PMO has me totally baffled.
The big story of this summer, the relevant story, was a substantial triumph at the G8/G20, killing the bank tax dead, and demonstrating genuine leadership, not kowtowing to 0bama, and making some good connections with future world economic powers that we should build bridges with. At least, if a Liberal was PM, that’s how it would have been spun by the media.
Instead, the summer was full of BS about the census and about spending billions and billions on planes and jails. Now, some of the criticism isn’t reasonable, and some can be debated. However, to bring this ridiculous arena spending item to the table is just plain stupid.
If this arena fiasco happened without Harper’s say so, then he has lost control of his party. If it happened with his agreement, then he has become totally corrupt and cynical.
And it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t end up happening, Harper has blown it. If the money is spent on Quebec, then he is buying votes. If not, then he wants to buy votes but is backing off due to public pressure. Either way he ends up bloodied and dirtied.
What kind of Conservative party is this?
I gave up my membership in the CPC 2 years ago when they did nothing about Human Rights Commissions. Now, Ezra is winning that battle, I think, but why the heck is Lynch still the head of the Canadian HRC?
And why does JasonKenny.ca feature the “Kenney eases family immigration for Tamils” item?
At what point does “when we’re a majority it will be different” , or “we can’t do this because we’re not a majority” become a sham? How does either of those lame excuses justify flushing 200 million dollars into Quebec for an arena that we will have to pay repairs for for the next 40 years.
And while they do this, they get into an ugly fight with war vets and their benefits?
W. T. F?
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
Harper only promised to “consider” backing the arena in QC,and mentioned further that all areas of Canada have to be treated equally. The problem is Charest is trying to blackmail him into contributing $175 million,and will scream anti-Quebec noises if he turns them down.
Like the “considered” Koran burning, it hasn’t happened yet, so don’t start rioting,figuratively speaking, in the streets just yet, or kill any infidels.
Quebec City is as likely to get an NHL team as Mexico City, as long as Gary Bettman is in charge. And while we Canadians like to bitch that Bettman is anti-Canadian, he’s just a typical Yankee businessman, concerned only about the bottom line,as he should be.
Bettman views all the “lesser” Canadian cities,outside Montreal,Toronto,Vancouver, as a big risk business-wise,and he’s probably right,they’re small markets,comparatively speaking.
When Ron McLean interviewed Bettman about Hamilton earlier this year on HNIC,Bettman mentioned several America markets he thinks are a better choice for expansion than Hamilton,and the same logic likely holds for QC.
Governments should stay the hell out of sponsoring professional sports teams facilities,if they want an arena or stadium, let them build it themselves. Funny how all these billionaire capitalists turn money-grubbing socialist whenever there’s a chance at a free ride on the taxpayer’s dollar.
If Quebec,or any other Canadian city wants a sports facility for pro teams, let ’em find the money on their own.
We are in a recession that’s about to get a lot worse,and it’s high time we stopped pissing money away on circuses.
Harper and his gang better give their head a shake if they think pouring hundreds of millions more into Quebec (when they pull his chain) gets them more seats in parliament – the stark truth is that it might even not help them to hold on to the Quebec seats they already hold. Anyone with their head screwed on right, knows that any largess that goes to Quebec, is because of the Bloc Quebecois (that is why Quebec returns more Quebecois MP’s than all the other parties combined) and their unabashed fight for gifts to Quebec, and also the blackmailing of Canadians of good will, by citizens of Quebec to separate if we don’t continue to pander to them with big dollars as well as change the complete fabric and institutions of Canada to accommodate the demands of Quebec. Let’s face it – the Quebec game plan has worked and is working beautifully as they continue to tie our politicians in knots. By the way how is that grand plan of bilingualism, which is supposed to be so great for Canada and Canadian unity, working out in Quebec, or are they passing new laws to enforce the french fact and trample on the rights of any other language groups including the English speaking – and it appears to be approved by all political parties in Quebec.
Lance,
$25 million? $400 million? What’s the difference, Lance? The principal is the same. The rest is just negotiating price.
Dmorris is bang-on with the possible exception of QC getting a fchise. If they get to charge a fchise fee of say 60 mill it will get done. But unless the economics of the league change, QC is far too small a market to survive long-term. Even cities like Halifax and london have arguably more corporate sponsor potential than QC and no one would seriously put one of those cities forward.
The Saddledome in Calgary has a limited life span – and demolition and construction of a new arena is certain in the next ten years.
Somehow – I don’t think that Calgary will get wads of cash for a new arena.
Erik please read mycomments above about the ‘dome replacement.
We could build two domed stadiums a year
with the swill freeloadin’ rural
conservative
welfare bum farmers slurp out of the provincial trough.
You want to waste tax dollars on professional sports, look to that.
“I’m hoping the PMSH is actually strategizing that there will be a backlash against the arena to give him cover and to make it clear to the Librano$”
That’s exactly what Jean Chretien did with the NHL. They floated a trial balloon saying that the Feds would consider bailing out troubled Canadian NHL franchises(before the strike). There was a nationwide uproar, and JC backed-off with full political cover.
The difference today, is back then Quebec didn’t have a dog in the fight. The Canadians were reasonable stable at the time.
$450 million re-roofing of BC Place – home to the Lions & the Olympic Open/Close Ceremonies
http://tinyurl.com/3yu5j2s
paid for with property development around the site . . . no Steve money here.
Each of those external roof beams is 130 tons and they are massive.
Zoom in for a better look and the time lapse is cool.
The interior cam is currently “stuck” but they’ll get it re-booted . . . usually takes pictures every 15 minutes
The Vancouver Reno of the roof on the stadium there is fully paid for by the the bc govt because the Feds were too slow and their is a high likelihood that both an MLB franchise and/or an NFL franchise could move or be awarded to van very shortly after the Reno has been completed.
Gord – smokin’ some of that BC export, were you? There is no move to expand the NFL at this time, and Toronto would be added long before Vancouver. There is absolutely no interest in expanding MLB at this time, either. Besides, you couldn’t even support your AAA team; what makes you think that a major league team would get enough support?
I’ve read the summaries of a couple of studies that show the government investment in sports stadia, or convention centres, is never repaid with the increased tourism dollars that the boosters tout. I don’t care whether the money goes to Quebec City, Regina, or Vancouver – it’s a waste. But, hey, bread and circuses is an age-old tactic, isn’t it?
Gord Tulk @1242 – thx
At the risk of getting flamed, I’d like to put the politics aside(gorkinknee summed it up nicely), and speak to the issue of public funding for professional and college stadiums.
It goes without saying that the majority of Canadians are against the public funding of such stadiums. In my view this is a cultural phenomena, not a reasoned position. Similar to the healthcare debate, Canadians are completely oblivious to the reality of modern professional sport (and college), and lack even the slightest insight into the mechanics of the industries. If Canadians value professional sports across Canada, and wish to preserve small market teams, all levels of government WILL be contributing to stadiums; else, bye bye teams, and likely bye bye CFL as well. Unfortunately for us, we are woefully behind our competitors as I demonstrate further down, meaning we’re spending more in the long run because we’re too cheap! How’s that for logic.
The fact is, economically speaking, Canada is not a friendly place to do business for pro sports; relatively speaking. Just as ratty old theatres have had to renovate or close down with the emergence of the mega theatres, so too will our Canadian sports facilities have to. In order to compete, we must compete.
Did any of you know that since 1995 there have been 21 new NFL football stadiums built? All including public funding!! Like it or not, this is the trend in American sports(NHL,NFL,MLB,NBA), and you gotta pay to play. The CFL is also not immune, due to the NFL franchise that will likely be in T-dot by 2016. If the Americans were not there; perhaps we might still be playing pro hockey on sheets of uneven ice behind the high school(ain’t that the truth?). Nope, IF we cherish our professional sports traditions we will have to play by the rules, rules Canadians don’t set.
Finally, don’t we owe it to our kids and there kids to ensure they can enjoy Rider football like the rest of us have for 100 years? Does it not go without saying that we have benefited as a province having the Riders? Are we not thankful that those old folks weren’t a bunch of cheapskates and had a little vision?
The politics of this is bad, no doubt about it; but only because collectively, with regards to modern day sports, we’re a bunch selfish of morons.
“There is no move to expand the NFL at this time,”
KB
The NFL’s expansion plans are well known, as they will be the center piece of R.Goodell’s commissioner-ship. The very first thing RG said was that the NFL would be expanding four teams in two phases, along with future plans. The NFL is definitely looking to expand two teams domestically(most say LA and perhaps Chic) and two international teams (likely Mexico City and T-dot). After that, Goodell plans on having two teams in Europe (London and Belin) but I won’t go into that. All of that said, I haven’t heard of Vancouver being considered for any major league teams.
Currently the NFL players are without a contract and a canceled season is a possibility in 2011. This is why expansion is not being discussed at this time. Expansion might be key to getting the NFLPA to sign a deal.
Maxime Bernier for PM?
Kill about six birds with one stone
Maxime Bernier for PM?
Kill about six birds with one stone
Sorry about the duplication.
I am a CPC member, but my patience is running out.
There are many places to take a stand but the long form census is not one of them. Nor are shiny new jails.
Conservatism is supposed to be about common sense.
What’s going wrong and how de we get back on track?
Why don’t those who are against this proposal for federal funding of a hockey arena in Quebec City do what I did–send the PM an e-mail stating that. If he receives enough e-mail telling him that this is a stupid idea, he may just listen.
Then again……….
Indy and KB – there are two teams likely to bs moved in the NFL within the next few years – jax and buf. Rogers has it’s hands on the buf franchise already with rumoired plans to build a new stadium on the malton airport lands.
The NFL would love to return to la but there is no stadium and no plans to get one built this decade. Thus jax is up for grabs. Van and BC didn’t spend 400 mill of their own money to give the BC lions a retractable roof.
Either way Gord, the CFL is screwed. I suspect a political play will be made to protect a Canadian cultural icon. There’s no way the CFL can survive in it’s current form if the NFL moves into TO.
Mike in White Rock: Harper is sandbagged inside an impervious PMO surrounded by sycophants. I recently had a backbench CPC MP coach me on how to possibly get heard … on how to use the same tricks he must use in order break through the sandbags. That’s a CPC MP … what about us proles?
Good luck.
Indiana Homerz, you’re wrong.
The NFL requires the CFL. It needs it to be alive, viable and successful and they won’t jeopardize it.
There is no NFL-E or Arena 1,2 anymore. The CFL is the only place for sophomores to get professional OJT outside of the NFL.
Besides, the Bills experience in TO to date pretty much put paid to the idea of TO supporting an NFL team.
The lobbyist are now talking about a Quebec City Olympic bid, and of course the new arena will be needed for that…excellent!
The message should be to pursue that idea…and once the IOC established Quebec as a top contender, the feds will consider putting money into the arena. But until then, forget it.