“In the contemporary world, the world of human rights, when you call a person a right-winger, this is the first step toward his or her delegitimization. “
Fiamma Nirenstein;
The Left blessed the Jews as the victim “par excellence,” always a great partner in the struggle for the rights of the weak against the wicked. In return for being coddled, published, filmed, considered artists, intellectuals and moral judges, Jews, even during the Soviet anti-Semitic persecutions, gave the Left moral support and invited it to cry with them at Holocaust memorials. Today the game is clearly over. The left has proved itself the real cradle of contemporary anti-Semitism.
Read the whole thing.
“The study also debunks the myth of ‘all those Arabs immigrated into Israel when they thought it would be formed, as well as the myth of The Empty Land of 1948.”
A recently manipulated study, ET? Given that Churchill and others were actually eye witnesses, with no bone to pick?
More ‘evidence’ for the Palestinian myth.
It still seems to me, that when one is between Scylla and Charybdis, and I’m sorry to keep sounding like an engineer, or if you prefer, a broken record, it remains the case that the objective must be to get out of the situation of being between Scylla and Charybdis, rather than the more leisurely objective of the pursuit of the analysis the philosophical nuances of Scylla v. Charybdis; to that end I continue to find myself short of a viable plan to achieve said objective, and thus, finally, I ask again ~ ET, Irwin, Tenebris, Me No Dhimmi, EBD, anyone ~ what, exactly, should be done now, considering that any such proposal must have a reasonable chance of working now for it to be interesting?
Well Vitruvius if one makes the assumption that both parties want peace the solution is not far off. If both parties do not want peace the use of Baffin Island as a solution comes immediately to mind.
As Stephen noted at 21:57 yesterday, Joe, “Israel maintains the important high ground, morally and legally speaking”. So who should go to Baffin Island? And under those circumstances, wouldn’t it be better if they just dispersed into the generic middle-east? Indeed, if I thought such a plan was viable, that’s what I would first propose. Let Israel have it’s little postage-stamp sized slice of not-even-lush land, without geo-political incursions thereto, let them defend that, and stop pestering them. Does anyone think such a plan is viable, now?
“If both parties do not want peace the use of Baffin Island as a solution comes immediately to mind.”
Manley, when he was Minister of Foreign Affairs, already suggested that, more or less. The Palestinians, of course, were outraged.
I don’t know, Vitruvius.
ET, discounts emotions. This conflict is all about deep seated, historically ingrained emotions, supported by a religious/political ideology based, as they believe, on the uncreated and unmitigated word of Allah and the actions of his prophet.
A rational answer, to a mostly irrational problem?
The likely short answer is all out war.
The long answer is for Islam to be confronted, exposed and rejected, especially with regards to universally accepted human rights issues. Pressure and shame them into change. Their political ideology is not acceptable in todays world.
However, given the cultural cowardice and burgeoning anti-Semitism of the left, this is unlikely as well.
Certainly appeasement doesn’t work. As stated earlier:
“Israeli population centers in southern Israel have been the target of over 4,000 rockets, as well as thousands of mortar shells, fired by Hamas and other organizations since 2001. Rocket attacks increased by 500 percent after Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. During an informal six-month lull, some 215 rockets were launched at Israel.”
I think I have a good idea what should be done …. but you also stipulate that it has to have a reasonable chance of working now to be interesting. With the Obama admin my proposals are even more remote, nevertheless, some ideas in no particular order:
– The US needs to END all financial support to “Palestinians”. This support skews the incentive structure in favour of a continuation of the conflict.
– All western infidel nations should end all finanial support to the “Palestinians”.
– Western nations should stop fearing the oil weapon; elementary economics teaches us that they need to sell oil as much as we need to buy it.
– The US should consider leaving the UN, which action would destroy it.
– Shut down UNWRA which, like welfare in general, perpetuates victimism and destructive behaviour.
– The world needs to shed the insane good-terrorist/bad-terrorist delusion, and work at destroying both Fatah and Hamas. This would be consistent with the so-called GWOT and at the main front in this war.
– DESTROY FATAH AND HAMAS. Kill or arrest all their leaders, exile them.
– This current sham of a war in Gaza is probably designed to allow the good terrorists to re-take Gaza. No solution. Fatah’s prime objective is the destruction of Israel just as is that of Hamas.
– Starve the “Palestinians” to the point where the Arab countries start providing ALL the aid and thereby develop some kind of financial incentive to change behaviour.
– The West should unite in a project of voluntary ethnic cleansing and offer financial incentives to “Palestinians” to move to another Arab country. This would be money well spent.
– Israel fully, unapologetically occupies Gaza and the West Bank now absent the terrorist infrastructure and begins helping the “Palestinians” create a civil society, beginning with a root-and-branch reform of the education system.
– With internatiional help Israel would supervise new investment to create an actual economy (like during the post-67 occupation — the economic golden age for “Palestinians”).
– the end game would be some kind of autonomy for “Palestinians” who choose to stay.
– there is no realistic prospect for full statehood for “Palestinians”.
But this would require a political class vastly superior to the sorry lot of delusional maniacs we’re stuck with, world-wide.
Now I don’t know about you but I do pray for peace in the Middle East. Blessed are the peace makers and all that you know. I also try not to pick fights with people who are on my side. Luke 9:50.
In closing, because I have taken up too much of Kate’s bandwidth, I say, “Without forgiveness there can never be peace”!
Posted by: Joe at December 29, 2008 5:09 PM
—————–
What I don’t know about this conflict could fill a room, and that goes the same for everyone here. To be perfectly honest, these two groups deserve each other. They’re all behaving like savages, with neither side showing the compassion and leadership to move past this bullshit. Frankly their chances of long term survival are not all that hot, because they’re too focused on trying to grab everything they want, and not at all about what the other needs.
Posted by: John at December 29, 2008 6:44 PM
———————-
Posted by: Tenebris at December 29, 2008 7:09 PM
———————–
All very excellent posts. I am impressed. Very impressed. Although there seems to be some very significant areas that no one has touched on in this, the Mother Of All Considerations. Well, at least to some.
On to the great debate;
But of course, ideological and inbred hate ruined it for them.
ET, I believe it was Oscar Wilde who said, “The first sign of genius is contradiction.” You might give up, when you’ve been proven wrong, once in a while. Your position is untenable.
Posted by: irwin daisy at December 29, 2008 7:32 PM
Say we start with Menachem Begin and the Irgun and the results of their efforts. Then consider the variations of revisionist histories. Moving on to references of Churchill’s objectivity. Really now. The Grand Old Man was many things, and a study of his life, his family history and his associates might bring some perspective there.
After all arguments are presented, and the impressive array of historical accounts are considered, the question remains. Why would the Peoples of any modern Western Country think for a moment that this timeless struggle concerns them or that they have any place inputing into this seemingly endless cycle?
I am very much a believer in the kiss principle, and how it applies here is simple. We need to mind our own business. We are not party to this cycle of debauchery that these people, of these lands have chosen to engage in. For what seems forever.
I never said or implied that there was a solution at hand, Vitruvius, so in that sense I could just as reasonably say to you “come on Vitruvius, let’s hear it, what’s your solution, then?” That would be odd, of course, because you never said or implied that there was a solution.
This, in short form, is my view on any proposed solutions: I consider it unreasonable to believe that academics or anyone else can use reason to solve the problems caused by unreasonable people, or at the very least, any proposed solutions that do not fully and comprehensively take this fully-formed, intractable cultural bloodlust into account are dead in the water. And it’s hubris to think that the shuffling around of ideas and anthropological terms by western intellectuals will ever — could ever — any effect whatsoever on the *thinking* of the Palestinians and their representatives is
The thought processes of those who grew up in the Palestinian culture of hatred are not pieces on a board game or ideas that can be maneuvered by western intellectuals.
It seems self-evident to me that the sheer irrational extent of the hatred of Jews — now well-implanted in the next generation of little bombers — cannot be casually elbowed aside just because it gets in the way of the theory being proffered by those who feel they have a solution.
So…..I ask you again, Vitruvius: what, *exactly*, should be done now to solve the problems in the Middle East?
/:>)>
It occurs to me that we can make a list of the principal alternative proposals that have come to be on the table in this discussion, be they viable or not, as follows:
Perhaps, mutatis mutandis, we should conduct a poll on this, if not in the name of finality, at least in the name of closure.
well folks, I have to side with ET here, as Lebenon with it’s MIDDLE economic class is a complete sucess!!! NOT
Vitruvius, as I said up above the Israeli’s are suffering from a pretty small set of choices here. They can “buy” peace from Hamas with some unilateral pull-backs and the like. This is what ET is basically suggesting with the removing of settlers idea.
Extending to the Palestinians full statehood doesn’t really get Israel anything good, because once those borders come down the Egyptians, Syrians and etc. are -much- closer to Israeli civilians. Thing you have to remember about Israel, its SMALL. From Gaza you can hit Ashdod with artillery, its only 20 miles. A smaller distance than from Oakville to Hamilton. Its only 40 miles from Gaza to Tel Aviv, that’s Hamilton to Toronto. Modern artillery pieces can reach targets 25 to 20 miles away depending on what shot they’re firing. Modern truck mounted artillery missiles can easily reach 50 miles with accuracy.
So, Israel can’t afford to have Egyptian artillery that close to their cities. That’s why Gaza exists in the first place. Giving the Palestinians statehood puts the guns of their enemies right into the middle of Israel.
Giving the Palestinians state hood doesn’t really do anything for them either. Say the Israelis go ahead and recognize Hamas as the legit government of Gaza, pull down their border posts with Egypt and book it back behind their wall. What does this get Hamas?
They don’t have to dig tunnels into Egypt anymore. That’s pretty much it. Any aid from Israel is gone, aid from the UN is gone, all that’s left is the cruddy Gaza strip and them sitting in it. They’ll be free. Free to die in the heat from their own bad sanitation habits. Obviously Hamas has to attack Israel the day after the Independence celebration is over, so that the Saudis keep slipping them guns and payola.
I’d say the Israelis are doing exactly what they should be doing. Hamas fires on them, they kill the Hamas rocketeers without killing a bunch of Palestinian bystanders. Hamas keeps firing, they drive in to Gaza, round up every son of a bishop with a gun in his hands, toss them all in jail and then go home. Rinse, repeat as required.
Really, what you have here is something like the Mohawk Warriors Society firing home made rockets at Hamilton from the reserve in Caledonia. What would we do? We’d drive over there and arrest them, is what. Fairly obvious. We’d take whatever weight of armor was required to make it past their barrage, nab them, toss their butts in jail and that would be that.
That’s what the Israelis are doing. Funny how the MSM is going flat out to make that look like the Nazis bombing London.
ET – the smiley means the statement is to be interpreted humorously. Its meant to assure you that I dispute the position, not the person. I am deeply wounded…
En garde!
“People…don’t exist on air, either the hot air from words or from the benign smiles of Zeus.” And man does not live by bread alone. While a full belly usually precedes violence towards ones neighbour, it oft times is the consequence.
“As material realities…”? Come, my dear – again you beg the question. Clearly, we are both darkly wise and rudely great.
“That’s the economy’s task.” Stop your nattering about the economy, in the sense of impersonal agent. Are you a mere Marxist? Or do you invoke a secular god to escape your own responsibilities to provide for you and yours?
“I disagree that 4,000 years of hatred between Jew and Muslim means ‘no change’,… I absolutely disagree that because one is a Jew, one must hate Muslims, and vice versa.” Straw man. This does not become you. I describe a cultural pattern. I do not prescribe an individual’s behaviour.
I assert what is – on the Palestinian side, societal hatred and strife inculcated into the culture by depraved and murderous creatures; on the Israeli side, at a stretch, arrogance, disdain and modest economic exploitation.
I want what ought to be – peace, harmony, mutual love and fellowship.
Like Vitruvius, I do not know how to get from A to B.
I fail to see, EBD, how you can ask me what my proposal should be, when my whole point here has been that I am in want of a viable proposal, and thus have been pestering others for assistance thereto. Should it be the case that others admit that they too are in want of a viable proposal, including you, EBD, I can accept that; perhaps, as Stratfor suggested, the problem simply is, for now, intractable. I’ve only been asking for the input, advice, and counsel of the many wise commenters here at Small Dead Animals, including yourself.
I light of your comment, Phantom, let’s mutatis
my above list by adding the following option:
irwin daisy – go to the statistical link on populations that I provided; it will show you that the population of the area in 1931 was about 1.3 million, with 7-800,000 in the area that is now Israel. Most of these were Muslims. The Ottomans and British weren’t administering an empty land. Kindly check out the statistics and the census – which was done for tax and military purposes. I provided the link. Go to it.
here it is again. Try it.
triple w dot mideastweb dot org slash palpop dot htm
I hate to disturb your opinions but they might, just might, be wrong. Go check out the actual statistics.
Try to understand the difference between a sustenance agriculture, which sustains a village, and an industrial agriculture, which sets up a market economy. There’s no need for irrigation etc in a sustenance agriculture.
Please understand the difference between Islam and Islamic fascism. Islam is not, in itself, as an ideology, a fascist ideology. Your intense hatred of Islam biases you to merge the two. I suggest that you read the development of Al Qaeda, which is the fascist Islam, in Wright’s book, ‘The Looming Tower’.
You still haven’t provided a reason for whole populations moving into Islam, and sorry, I don’t accept your ‘greed’ causality. Such individual psychological motives don’t explain whole population behaviour.
No, I don’t discount emotions but I don’t accept them as causal of whole population behaviour. That means that for you, a whole population is bereft of reason.
Me no dhimmi – sorry, I left out a ‘0’. It should be 650,000 Jews in the area in 1948. Yes, it was insane but the fact is, that this IS the situation that was set up. Therefore, as vitruvius keeps asking – what does one do with the NOW?
me no dhimmi, in your plan, what citizenship would these Palestinians hold, since they were not citizens of a Palestinian state? And what do you mean by ‘some kind of autonomy’?
hugger – why does it matter? Because the people on both sides are, like us, human. And second, because Islamic fascism is feeding off the I-P conflict and Islamic fascism, which has no interest in settling the I-P conflict has an interest in the West and the destruction of the West. The best means of winning against Islamic fascism – is the political system of democracy, which requires a middle class – something that the ME tribal regimes reject and this rejection is the cause of Islamic fascism.
Again, my suggestion is that Israel stop its expansion of the settlements, take down the Wall, and actively enable the development of a democratic state of Palestine – with an economy that is necessarily linked to that of Israel. As for Islamic fascism, that has to be fought, but it is a profound error, as I feel irwin daisy makes, to merge Islam and Islamic fascism. The two are quite different.
ET:
IF Israel would recognize that original UN resolution, and both allow and enable a Palestinian state –
Israel did in 1948. What was the result? you guessed it. War by ALL neighboring Arab States. Than many conflicts latter. They won that land by blood, than have given portions up like the Sinai or the Golan heights. They even forced there own at 2 or more billion by themselves to evacuate ( I call it at gun point) settlers off land so Gaza could be Jew free. Yet the rockets continue to fall. Some things are not rooted in economics, or logic. It comes from a peoples soul for ill or good. Both hate & love are the greatest of motivators. Even a beggar will die for what they cherish. Mohammed made the mold ,they are just the clay poured in that hateful shape. Israel is only an out post of the Caliphate conflict by Iran & Saudi Arabia. To Islamify the Planet. Hamas is just linked to that theater of the war. They no more care for Palestinians than infidels, that the first Iraqi war proved. Its an excuse of an eons long hate.
JMO
Oh, and by the way Kate. We are in the midst of an economic tsunami. Isn’t that a tad more important to we lowly North Americans who can only stand in the shadow of the great engineers of the resurrection of the Great Quest of the search for the Holy Grail?
Still, I did find the debate titillating, interesting and somewhat informative. I extend my sincere appreciation to those good people who have shared their studies and perspectives.
We learn by sharing the things we experience.
As we learn, we come to know that some people are destined to suffer, by their own hand. And all we can effectively do, is offer a helping hand when they have finished with their mutually imposed horror.
It is not for us to comb the annals of history to determine whose cause is righteous. I could try to explain to you the essence of getting in the middle, but I expect you wouldn’t listen anyway.
I could try to explain to you what it is to stand in the middle of a hatred that you weren’t a party to. But I expect you wouldn’t listen to that either.
The intellectual debate circumvents the piss that runs down your leg the first time you fire on a target you can’t see, that’s firing on you.
ET’s solution makes the most sense. Her historical analysis is not completely accurate, but she understands the core of the current conflict and how it must be resolved. The only option which will permit the survival of Israel is reconciliation and the establishment of a Palestinian state. All other courses will lead inevitably to the Jewish state’s destruction. This is the course upon which they are currently set.
Most posting here obviously support Israel, but you must understand that in the world at large they are viewed as the villain. Their very right to exist is coming into question. By playing into the hands of the jihadists, they are only hastening their own end.
ET: Take down the wall? You mean the one that reduced suicide bombing by what 99%. The one that went up only after about 1000 innocent Jewish civilians were mass-murdered in buses and pizzerias.
You mean as a kind of proactive good will gesture? Like say the good-will gesture of destroying all those Jewish homes in Gaza and making it judenrein?
Hugger:
I say this kindly. You have issues, personaly i would have seen a Dr. by now. Please do so for your own sake if not your family’s.
Happy Trails
And your plan, Hugger, Belisarius, Revnant Dream, would be: what, exactly? Look, seriously, I’m not actually trying to be a pest, folks. Nevertheless, to the degree that it remains the case that none of us actually have a viable plan: can’t we just admit it? Does not failing to admit same endanger skating on the thin ice of hubris?
Hugger:
I say this kindly. You have issues, personaly i would have seen a Dr. by now. Please do so for your own sake if not your family’s.
Happy Trails
Posted by: Revnant Dream at December 29, 2008 10:00 PM
If you could explain my issues in a more comprehensive manner,then your opin may be of greater value to those who frequent this site, and yourself as well.
Posted by: Vitruvius at December 29, 2008 10:07 PM
Vitruvius, what did I say? I know you’re not an idiot.
I don’t know why you’re asking me, Hugger,
I would have thought you knew what you said.
I don’t why people are arguing about the jewish/muslim population in the 1930 in Palestine.
That’s mostly irrelevant.
In my opinion the future of Israel/ Palestine conflict is mostly rooted in demography. The arab population is growing more rapidely than the jewish population. That’s causing tensions.
Don’t forget that there are 1.5 million Arabs in Israel. Citizen of Israel and growing fast.
Personally I predict that when the arabs will form about 30% of Israel population (1 generation fromnow), the conflict will mostly move inside Israel. It is likely to be political.
Posted by: Vitruvius at December 29, 2008 10:28 PM
I’m not asking anything of you Vitruvius. Or for that matter any persons who see the world from a singular perspective.
Every person sees the world from a singluar perspective: theirs. However, as we’ve gotten off topic, and as this thread is beginning to exhibit the signs of a discussion that is no longer producing a satisfactory signal to noise ratio, it’s probably a good time for me to leave. We’ll see.
Every person sees the world from a singluar perspective: theirs.
Posted by: Vitruvius at December 29, 2008 10:48 PM
No Vitruvius , that is where you are wrong. There is so very much to consider. How could any thinking, caring, intelligent individual ever think that they have come to know all that there is to know?
Some people see the world from a singular perspective. Some people constantly question why? And in their hearts, they really want to know.
It transcends the stupidity of patronage.
Perhaps, but it’s off-topic. There are rules here, you know.
osted by: Vitruvius at December 29, 2008 11:10 PM
Good Sir, we as a People have to venture forward as one.
It’s not that complicated if we choose to eliminate those whose intent it is to set us upon each other. For their own gain.
All of us have so much in common. If only we could realize that.
You speak of rules. Such a convenience for some.
ET,
Fascists champion the nation. The Ummah is the Muslim nation. Muslims, in general, are loyal towards the Ummah first and foremost. That is what the Caliphate is about. That is what dar al Harb and dar al Islam is about. That is what the Islamic ideology has always been about.
And, if you don’t like greed, avarice and lust, here’s another answer for whole populations moving into Islam:
Boston University anthropologist Charles Lindholm, wrote, “The Muslim message of the equality of all believers struck a cord with the common people of the empires, who, theoretically at least, were liberated from their inferior status by the simple act of conversion. The rise of Islam was both an economic and social revolution, offering new wealth and freedom to the dominions it assimilated under the banner of a universal brotherhood guided by the message of the Prophet of Allah.”
Well, good enough then, that is given the alternative – dhimmitude for Jews and Christians and death for Polytheists.
I maintain that the Palestinian problem is a microcosm; a flashpoint of the much larger issue. That being the ideology of Islam in general. Until it is wholly confronted, rather than appeased; until it is rejected in no uncertain terms as antithetical to universally accepted human rights and the western way of life, there will be more and more Palestinian type problems all over the world.
“In a final “Policy Response” section of his book, ‘The Art of War on Terror: Triumphing over Political Islam and the Axis of Jihad,’ Moorthy Muthuswamy suggests a multi-pronged plan of action. He advocates the potential weakening of political Islam through the discrediting of its theological foundation and manufactured Muslim grievances. He recommends a change in focus away from individual terrorist groups and the axis of evil to the axis of jihad, even to the point of formally charging Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran with crimes against humanity. Muthuswamy further contends that the strengthening of India, as well as a coalition between India and Israel, could act as a counterforce to political Islam and the axis of jihad. Recognizing the physical threat of the global jihad, he acknowledges the necessity of developing a comprehensive allied nuclear retaliatory strategy to fight jihadist nations.
SrđaTrifkovic:
It will not be “discrimination” if and when Islam is reclassified as a cult-cum-political ideology, inherently seditious to all forms of human organization other than itself, and eminently deserving of the kind of treatment meted out in the U.S. to, say, Bolsheviks after 1917 and anarchists after 1901.
Nevertheless, it remains the case that as clearly stated in cyan below, as a precondition for participation in this private property known as Small Dead Animals: Ensure your comment is on topic[…]. This is not a forum or a repository for off-topic link dumps. […] Take your extended debates and/or flamewars to private email. Thank you. That’s not your choice, nor mine, it’s Kate’s. Respect it or leave.
Posted by: Hugger at December 29, 2008 9:53 PM>
“We are in the midst of an economic tsunami”.
What economic tsunami would that be? I’m doing fine, as well as anyone else I know in Canada. Either we are truly and naively blind to our own economics, or its Liberal crapolla fed to the masses. Otherwise it simply might be just good conservative governance and not paying attention to the Liberal pandering and fear mongering.
Honestly I can’t believe how much cyber ink and human endeavor was wasted on this pathetic non-Canadian issue, Israel verses Palestine. Who cares? This is none of our business and Canada should sit back and watch them duke it out! One will win and peace will ensue eventually. Ya ya of course Iran, Syria and whatever other tribal crap-hole that holds the world hostage to oil and terrorist demands will jump in on Israel. I have a pretty strong feeling that it will all sort itself out in the end.
And by the by what ever happened to the food for oil program? I think if we extend the offer from food to pharmaceuticals and discounted chemotherapy equipment, we’ll have the king’s share of oil. (Pardon the pun).
(just returning to computer now, can’t resist just one more post)
The demographic question is just arsenal for those who think that the Jews displaced/stole the land of ancient Palestinians. In 1947 when the UN partition plan was proposed (and accepted by Jews but rejected by Arabs – I repeat THEY COULD BE CELEBRATING THEIR 60 YEARS OF STATEHOOD), Jews were in the majority in areas that were to be the Jewish state and Arabs were the majority in lands to be partitioned as an Arab state. EXCEPT for Jerusalem where Jews were in the majority. The partition plan called for Jerusalem to be an international zone (or something like that) (You know Rome capital of Christianity, Mecca capital of Islam, but Jerusalem, no no that can’t possibly be the capital of a Jewish state). All the demographic studies show the Arab population rising, so if the Jews are the Evil Occupying Force brutalizing and displacing the Arabs, how is it that their population keeps rising? Rather than displacement, Arabs flocked from Jordan, Egypt, Syria etc. to the areas economically improved by the Jews. Yes there were only about 650,000 Jews in 1947/48 when the Arabs rejected the UN two state solution, and those 650,000 had to fight off 5 Arab countries bent on their destruction. A little bit amazing, no?
Oh and by the way, from 1948-1967, the “West Bank” was held by Jordan, and Gaza was held by Egypt, but did we hear anyone shouting that the Jordanians and Egyptians were denying the “poor ancient Palestinians” their right to statehood. So called Palestinan nationalism was made up after the 6 day war – the ETs of the world will deny this, but the evidence exists – since they could not beat the Jews militarily,there was a conscious decision made, with the help of Soviets, to retool perceptions so it became not the Arab/Israeli conflict, but the Israeli/Palistinian conflict (with Israel on the top and the Palistinians – not Arabs – able to fight only with stones and by suiciding themselves.
And the evil occupation post 1967? Oh you mean the one where infant mortality amongst Arabs dropped, life expectancy increased, literacy increased, universities were opened, 10s of 1000s of Arabs worked in Israel? Please spare me the crocodile tears about what could this poor generation do having had to live as victims of Zionism. Oh I forgot, they had to live with “fanaticdal settlers” (read non-secular observant Jews) – how dare those Jews try to live amongst Arabs – there should be no Jews in the state of Palestine.
Peace will come when the rest of the world says to the Arabs – you were offered a two state solution in 1947, you turned it down, you must accept responsibility for your actions – here is money if you want to relocate, otherwise if you want to stay, you must swear allegiance to the state of Israel – now get on with your life.
(Joe – I used the Christian source because I thought that would be more meaningful to you – there are many many Jewish sites I could have linked to. I know that we are friends. Remember “first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people” – their words.
me no dhimmi – “jewicidal” LOL, love that, an apt description.
Ex-liberal if you wanted to use a Christian source then please use a Christian source. The Adventists are at best pseudo-Christian, with their heavy reliance on “the Law”. The source you cited simply uses “modern archeology” as some kind of justification for a pre-held point of view with out actually showing any studies that would back up his claim. Kind of the Liberal way of “studies show” without any actual studies.
I always find it funny when I read these commentators because they seek to refute what is plainly written. Its as if they believe that they know better the application of the writing than the author himself. If one assumes that Moses wrote Leviticus then to say that “an eye for an eye” does not apply would mean that the observance of the Sabbath does not apply also. Since the same man brought both concepts into law.
If Moses wrote both don’t you think that he knew what he was writing? Don’t you think that if he wanted the law to be interpreted in another way he would have written it as such?
I have the same issue with St Paul’s critics. If one part of Paul’s writings doesn’t apply because it doesn’t fit with modern sensibilities then Paul’s writings can not be used as justification for anything that you would now hold near and dear. Its kind of like cutting off the branch you are standing on. As Christians you and I don’t have the luxury of picking and choosing in this regard no matter what some hair brained commentator might say. One of the great stumbling blocks amongst Evangelical Christians is the over reliance on Commentators. I can’t tell you the number of “Bible” studies I have gone to only to discover that the Bible is never even opened! We are studying some silly commentary. You wouldn’t believe how many of those studies I have shut down simply by reading the Bible to the study.
ex-liberal: Just got around to reading your post, which I find most excellent. I concur with every point you make here, and especially appreciate your remarks about the “Palestinian” golden age post 1967. Also, your point — which I often make myself — about the complete absence of “Palestinian nationalism” when Gaza and the West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan, respectively, and illegally, between 1948-1967. Not a peep.
Also, of course your point about the invention of the “Palestinian” people — a huge propaganda coup (KGB inspired I believe) of making Israel Goliath and the “Palestinians” David.
BTW, if I’m not mistaken, I believe it was from you that I first heard the remark: “The Palestinians got their state — Jordan”. It puzzled me a first until I later learned that 80% of the mandate — set aside for the Jews — was cut out for Jordan.
I think your posts on the Israel-Arab conflict are the best I’ve seen here at sda.