Few items of Canadian lore hold the fascination that the Avro Arrow does.
This is just a model, 3m long or so.
22 Replies to “Proof of Bigfoot”
Ah yes the AVRO Arrow. The F35 of its time. Too much money too little product.
I really thought they would find it when they opened Al Capone’s vault. But it proved too elusive, until now…
Ah yes, that’s the en devour that’s closest to my heart as well.
Way off Joe. The Avro Arrow could have been produced if other markets besides domestic were found for it. They weren’t. The F35 has found markets.
Put whatever reason for that all you want – no other country was interested in the aircraft. Canada simply lacked the capital formation to go it alone.
It was also ridiculously expensive, with plenty of bugs to work out, particularly the engines and the plane never made it to mass production.
The F35 is in production as we speak. Perfect? No, but in production. Something the Avro Arrow (CF105) never accomplished.
I have been told by the greatest generation there was a lot of featherbedding going on, with workers sleeping through production shifts.
The mystique (more myth imho) around the Avro Arrow amazes me. It was a good but overrated aircraft, able to little beyond interception missions.
Comparisons with the F35 are specious on all counts.
The CF105 was was a good plane – no more, no less. The F35 is a good plane too but unlike the CF105, is not obsolete off the assembly line as the Avro Arrow would have been (like the Super Hornet is), since the missile age had begun, right about the time the Arrow was undergoing test flights.
Yeah,the “Arrow”, the plane that was never going to be adopted as the main fighter of NATO, but some Canadians still cling to the fantasy that the awful PM Dief killed off the aerospace industry in Canada.
I’m so f***ing sick of hearing this BS about how we were going to lead the world and be the most important Nation in military aircraft development. In Little Canader!
Canada,a branch plant of Britain that segued into a branch plant of the USA,soon to become a branch plant of China.
Maybe we can bribe them to let Bombardier build a few Chengdu J-20’s under licence in Quebec.
Meanwhile, Bigfoot was spotted near the Peachland wildfire, running into the flames.
Don, “fighter”, that sucker was huge:-))
Used to watch is fly over head, with a CF-100 bird dogging it. The 100 looked like a little toy following that beast.
It was too expensive, as it was sucking up 50% or more of out military budget at the time. And yup, no customers so we would have to eat the cost. But it was a very advanced unit and should have been completed, and then used for a basis of our aircraft industry. But that’s all history now!
I have a DVD of the docu-drama The Arrow that was shown on CBC over 20 years ago.
One of the special features is a copy of the CBC documentary There Never Was An Arrow which was aired roughly 2 decades after the project was cancelled. It includes interviews with a number of the people who worked for Avro at the time, including company president Fred Smye.
The conclusion of that documentary was that the real reason the Arrow was cancelled was a Canadian tendency to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There was a lot of blame to go around, including a failure to properly market the aircraft.
And, yes, the cancellation did set back the Canadian aerospace industry as much of the talent that worked on the Arrow left Canada. Jim Floyd, Avro’s chief design engineer, went back to the U. K. to work on the Concorde. Jim Chamberlain, an aerodynamicist, became manager of the Gemini project. Owen Maynard, an engineer, worked on the Apollo Lunar Module.
New airframe, avionics, engines, and weapon systems in a plane that could go fast in straight lines. Prototype flew two months before the much more advanced and versatile F4 Phantom. Too much of a gamble that hurt the Canadian aviation industry.
including a failure to properly market the aircraft.
“Would you like to buy a half-finished prototype interceptor that’s only good for shooting down nuclear bombers that no one’s using any more? No? What if we threw in a nice fruit basket and a bottle of Quebec maple syrup?”
The impending obsolescence of nuclear bombers was a red herring. The common speculation was that the Soviets were building up their ICBM arsenal which, as it turned out, was a lot of propaganda. Dwight Eisenhower knew about that but couldn’t debunk it as it would have raised question about how he found out. That would have meant that he would have had to admit that the Americans were flying clandestine surveillance missions over Soviet territory. He couldn’t do that without revealing that they were done using the U-2, which was a state secret at the time.
The Arrow had stiff competition in the foreign markets. The Americans and British were developing comparable aircraft at the same time, with each country emphasizing that their respective air forces obtain domestically built equipment.
Seems like awareness of the trade-off of the Aerospace industry for the Automobile Assembly Treaty has run into the the normal-Only The Liberals can claim Technological Advancement-meme.
Read the auto biography of Deputy Minister Wilson as I recall His name. This resource from the early 1970’s reveals much.
The Avro Arrow was one of dozens of experimental jet powered fighters that were conceived during the Cold war. Few ever made it to the assembly line.
This one however was a classic. Just look at the air inlet on the later models and you’ll see a touch of 55 Chevy, a touch of 56 Ford Crown Victoria, and the tail fin brings back memories of a 59 Caddy. You’d swear it was designed by Detroit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-86_Sabre
Remember the Golden Hawks?? When Canada had a real air force! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Hawks
Daniel , the americans had no problem hiring the engineers that left the Avro project, BECAUSE they knew how good these guys were. And the Iroquois engine, tho never mounted in a Arrow was “bed” test by grafting it on a USAF 4 engine bomber, were it out performed the 4 engines when they were shut down. Lots of innovation, and very poor chance of $$$$ recovery, and the damn thing was eating up big military $$$$
Still not sure why the flight models are apparently in Lake Ontario.
Were they flight-tested to oblivion off a ramp on shore, with some sort of radio-telemetry being sent back, or were they blasted into the pond to hide them?
We have a proud tradition of hiding our prowess in Lake Ontario; the HMS St Lawrence comes to mind.
Avro Arrow was sunk before it really got started. Huge consumer of capital. The USA was never going to subjugate their national security to a foreign power. The USA was the dominant foreign power coming out of WW II and the world dispenser of armaments.
Combine all these market negatives with the sad reality that Canada was crawling in Soviet spies and the Americans were well aware of that. Actually little has changed in over 60 years.
Avro Arrow was sunk before it really got started. Huge consumer of capital. The USA was never going to subjugate their national security to a foreign power. The USA was the dominant foreign power coming out of WW II and the world dispenser of armaments.
Combine all these market negatives with the sad reality that Canada was crawling in Soviet spies and the Americans were well aware of that. Actually little has changed in over 60 years.
Further to this comment the reference I used of Wison’s biography should actually be Miller.
Will be happy to spend more time on researching this if anyone requests such a presentation.
Avro Arrow was sunk before it really got started. Huge consumer of capital. The USA was never going to subjugate their national security to a foreign power. The USA was the dominant foreign power coming out of WW II and the world dispenser of armaments.
Combine all these market negatives with the sad reality that Canada was crawling in Soviet spies and the Americans were well aware of that. Actually little has changed in over 60 years.
It was designed to inter ept incoming Soviet bombers and designed perfectly for that role. Internal weapons for streamlining and speed. It only needed to fly in s straight line.
“interceptor that’s only good for shooting down nuclear bombers that no one’s using any more?”
I don’t know how you missed it but as we speak there are still nuclear bombers in the air.
“Still not sure why the flight models are apparently in Lake Ontario.”
In the movie, they were fired over Lake Ontario. Maybe less likely to kill people.
Maybe less likely to kill people.
Exactly. It would have been a safe area for testing. That’s one reason why the Americans chose Cape Canaveral for testing and launching rockets. If something goes wrong, it can simply go into the water.
Ah yes the AVRO Arrow. The F35 of its time. Too much money too little product.
I really thought they would find it when they opened Al Capone’s vault. But it proved too elusive, until now…
Ah yes, that’s the en devour that’s closest to my heart as well.
Way off Joe. The Avro Arrow could have been produced if other markets besides domestic were found for it. They weren’t. The F35 has found markets.
Put whatever reason for that all you want – no other country was interested in the aircraft. Canada simply lacked the capital formation to go it alone.
It was also ridiculously expensive, with plenty of bugs to work out, particularly the engines and the plane never made it to mass production.
The F35 is in production as we speak. Perfect? No, but in production. Something the Avro Arrow (CF105) never accomplished.
I have been told by the greatest generation there was a lot of featherbedding going on, with workers sleeping through production shifts.
The mystique (more myth imho) around the Avro Arrow amazes me. It was a good but overrated aircraft, able to little beyond interception missions.
Comparisons with the F35 are specious on all counts.
The CF105 was was a good plane – no more, no less. The F35 is a good plane too but unlike the CF105, is not obsolete off the assembly line as the Avro Arrow would have been (like the Super Hornet is), since the missile age had begun, right about the time the Arrow was undergoing test flights.
Yeah,the “Arrow”, the plane that was never going to be adopted as the main fighter of NATO, but some Canadians still cling to the fantasy that the awful PM Dief killed off the aerospace industry in Canada.
I’m so f***ing sick of hearing this BS about how we were going to lead the world and be the most important Nation in military aircraft development. In Little Canader!
Canada,a branch plant of Britain that segued into a branch plant of the USA,soon to become a branch plant of China.
Maybe we can bribe them to let Bombardier build a few Chengdu J-20’s under licence in Quebec.
Meanwhile, Bigfoot was spotted near the Peachland wildfire, running into the flames.
Don, “fighter”, that sucker was huge:-))
Used to watch is fly over head, with a CF-100 bird dogging it. The 100 looked like a little toy following that beast.
It was too expensive, as it was sucking up 50% or more of out military budget at the time. And yup, no customers so we would have to eat the cost. But it was a very advanced unit and should have been completed, and then used for a basis of our aircraft industry. But that’s all history now!
I have a DVD of the docu-drama The Arrow that was shown on CBC over 20 years ago.
One of the special features is a copy of the CBC documentary There Never Was An Arrow which was aired roughly 2 decades after the project was cancelled. It includes interviews with a number of the people who worked for Avro at the time, including company president Fred Smye.
The conclusion of that documentary was that the real reason the Arrow was cancelled was a Canadian tendency to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There was a lot of blame to go around, including a failure to properly market the aircraft.
And, yes, the cancellation did set back the Canadian aerospace industry as much of the talent that worked on the Arrow left Canada. Jim Floyd, Avro’s chief design engineer, went back to the U. K. to work on the Concorde. Jim Chamberlain, an aerodynamicist, became manager of the Gemini project. Owen Maynard, an engineer, worked on the Apollo Lunar Module.
New airframe, avionics, engines, and weapon systems in a plane that could go fast in straight lines. Prototype flew two months before the much more advanced and versatile F4 Phantom. Too much of a gamble that hurt the Canadian aviation industry.
including a failure to properly market the aircraft.
“Would you like to buy a half-finished prototype interceptor that’s only good for shooting down nuclear bombers that no one’s using any more? No? What if we threw in a nice fruit basket and a bottle of Quebec maple syrup?”
The impending obsolescence of nuclear bombers was a red herring. The common speculation was that the Soviets were building up their ICBM arsenal which, as it turned out, was a lot of propaganda. Dwight Eisenhower knew about that but couldn’t debunk it as it would have raised question about how he found out. That would have meant that he would have had to admit that the Americans were flying clandestine surveillance missions over Soviet territory. He couldn’t do that without revealing that they were done using the U-2, which was a state secret at the time.
The Arrow had stiff competition in the foreign markets. The Americans and British were developing comparable aircraft at the same time, with each country emphasizing that their respective air forces obtain domestically built equipment.
Seems like awareness of the trade-off of the Aerospace industry for the Automobile Assembly Treaty has run into the the normal-Only The Liberals can claim Technological Advancement-meme.
Read the auto biography of Deputy Minister Wilson as I recall His name. This resource from the early 1970’s reveals much.
The Avro Arrow was one of dozens of experimental jet powered fighters that were conceived during the Cold war. Few ever made it to the assembly line.
This one however was a classic. Just look at the air inlet on the later models and you’ll see a touch of 55 Chevy, a touch of 56 Ford Crown Victoria, and the tail fin brings back memories of a 59 Caddy. You’d swear it was designed by Detroit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-86_Sabre
Remember the Golden Hawks?? When Canada had a real air force!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Hawks
Daniel , the americans had no problem hiring the engineers that left the Avro project, BECAUSE they knew how good these guys were. And the Iroquois engine, tho never mounted in a Arrow was “bed” test by grafting it on a USAF 4 engine bomber, were it out performed the 4 engines when they were shut down. Lots of innovation, and very poor chance of $$$$ recovery, and the damn thing was eating up big military $$$$
Still not sure why the flight models are apparently in Lake Ontario.
Were they flight-tested to oblivion off a ramp on shore, with some sort of radio-telemetry being sent back, or were they blasted into the pond to hide them?
We have a proud tradition of hiding our prowess in Lake Ontario; the HMS St Lawrence comes to mind.
Avro Arrow was sunk before it really got started. Huge consumer of capital. The USA was never going to subjugate their national security to a foreign power. The USA was the dominant foreign power coming out of WW II and the world dispenser of armaments.
Combine all these market negatives with the sad reality that Canada was crawling in Soviet spies and the Americans were well aware of that. Actually little has changed in over 60 years.
Avro Arrow was sunk before it really got started. Huge consumer of capital. The USA was never going to subjugate their national security to a foreign power. The USA was the dominant foreign power coming out of WW II and the world dispenser of armaments.
Combine all these market negatives with the sad reality that Canada was crawling in Soviet spies and the Americans were well aware of that. Actually little has changed in over 60 years.
Further to this comment the reference I used of Wison’s biography should actually be Miller.
Will be happy to spend more time on researching this if anyone requests such a presentation.
Avro Arrow was sunk before it really got started. Huge consumer of capital. The USA was never going to subjugate their national security to a foreign power. The USA was the dominant foreign power coming out of WW II and the world dispenser of armaments.
Combine all these market negatives with the sad reality that Canada was crawling in Soviet spies and the Americans were well aware of that. Actually little has changed in over 60 years.
It was designed to inter ept incoming Soviet bombers and designed perfectly for that role. Internal weapons for streamlining and speed. It only needed to fly in s straight line.
“interceptor that’s only good for shooting down nuclear bombers that no one’s using any more?”
I don’t know how you missed it but as we speak there are still nuclear bombers in the air.
“Still not sure why the flight models are apparently in Lake Ontario.”
In the movie, they were fired over Lake Ontario. Maybe less likely to kill people.
Maybe less likely to kill people.
Exactly. It would have been a safe area for testing. That’s one reason why the Americans chose Cape Canaveral for testing and launching rockets. If something goes wrong, it can simply go into the water.