from article:
"Elite US military units use it, he added, even though the US Congress generally prefers to purchase only American-made weapons."
---------------------------

Like most firearms it has a distinctive sound.
They use it because their enemy, especially lately, have a tendency to fire them for no real reason and if special forces use it it delays realization by the enemy that they are being engaged in their own lines.

The new HK M416 has all the reliability of the AK design and is more accurate.
All the M16 clones in our western armies could easily be upgraded to the HK M416 design by buying/licence manufacturing the upper receiver+gas piston barrel assembly and retrofitting.

From the article: "The Saiga has a smoothbore barrel rather than the rifled barrel that lends dangerous spin to bullets fired by the real Kalashnikov, and it doesn't have a fully automatic setting."

Sounds like the writer really doesn't understand what a rifle is. The rifled barrel doesn't impart a "dangerous" spin to the bullet; it imparts spin to the bullet to gyroscopically stabilize it and improve its accuracy. A weapon that enable you to hit what you aim at is actually safer than one that simply squirts a slug somewhere down range.

A quick web search shows that both rifles and shotguns are sold in the civilian market under the Saiga brand.

gordinkneehill, that does read like the author has never actually held a gun in his hands, a "rifled" gun anyhow.

The russians sold the rights to manufacture these, and sold +30,000 of them to the venezuelans, and a license to produce more, (70,000?) all of them, heh, in the same slightly different calibre as the FARC group has long been using in neighboring Colombia, all the while denying they'd been helping to keep them safe when they needed a respite from fighting a real army in Colombia.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/6/8/130728.shtml

I doubt that revolutionaries have decided to turn their weapons into plows. It may have more to do with the leftist types associated with this weapon's manufacture, inability to run a profitable company.

"They use it because their enemy, especially lately, have a tendency to fire them for no real reason and if special forces use it it delays realization by the enemy that they are being engaged in their own lines."

Or it could be that it's easier to use a weapon that uses the same ammunition as the bad guys(and most 3rd world 'good' guys) are using when you are out 'behind the "lines"'.

The AK-47's popularity is one of the main reason I bought my semi-auto SKS -- they use the same ammo (7.62x39) and share the same reliability. With 100 million AK's in service, there's billions of rounds of ammo just waiting to be picked up for dirt cheap.

You can buy surplus hardball ammo for around $250 for 1400 rounds, compared to approximately $250 for 200 rounds of Federal hunting ammo.

There's nothing like the smell of Russian surplus firearms packed in cosmoline!

Only losers run AK's a .223 and a good eye is more than enough. Chalk up another small dead animal.
I'm really starting to hate these Muslim assholes.
d

"Or it could be that it's easier to use a weapon that uses the same ammunition as the bad guys(and most 3rd world 'good' guys) are using when you are out 'behind the "lines"'."
~mikeg81

Logic would suggest that if you can pick up the enemy's ammo you can pick up his rifle if you need it 'cause he won't be needing it any more than the ammo.
Special forces use AKs because they don't announce 'here be the enemy' when they're fired.

I like the SKS, but mine only shoots the corrosive surplus ammo with any accuracy. Have tried hand-loads from .308" - .312" to no decent accuracy advantage.

Lots of cleaning with the cheap corrosive surplus otherwise especially with deep cut and unrefined rifling, the extra time spent doesn’t justify the cost savings for me.

So I stick to the Mini 30, hand-loaded with .310" Hornady 123gr SP @ 2400fps - mounted with a Millet 1x4 red dot. Very accurate, and my choice over the AK in 5 round Canukisthan.

BTW my Ruger 10/22 is on back order, the 50 round drum kit and full auto kit has to pass customs.
Scared yet? Trick question, Liberals live scared, that's how their puppet masters control them.
D

Dwright >

“Only losers run AK's a .223 and a good eye is more than enough”

Yea, the debate of what’s better 7.62 x 39mm verses .223 rem (5.56 NATO) is as bad as AK verses M16.

Fact is, if I was on a flat plain desert with about 2 miles between me and a few insurgents, I want a .50 cal Barret over anything else. In a jungle I’d want a light carbine with fat bullet.

It’s all about application and training. Whether you’re in a large supporting squad, on your own, whether you have the means to maintain a clean functioning weapon or not, urban or rural environment, whatever.

Details of what is best depends on allot of things, as an all rounder I like most of the battle rifles from the FN’s through the M-14’s, H&K G3’s etcetera.

Ya just can’t say “only losers run AK’s...” they have a place, and a .223 with a good eye can get it’s ass kicked in a whole bunch of different situations.

This automatic weapon, known in Russian simply as an "avtomat," even receives the highest praise from Americans, Rogozin reported. Elite US military units use it, he added, even though the US Congress generally prefers to purchase only American-made weapons. Private collectors have also come to embrace this assault rifle, he continued, noting that US sales of the weapon jumped by 50 percent last year.

Well, even given what others have said about special forces sometimes using AKs, they don't really praise it that much

And whenever we buy them for the military, as far as I know, we buy US ones - is he unaware that plenty of US companies manufacture AK-pattern rifles? At worst I'd expect us to buy them from one of our actual allies, like Poland.

Likewise, most of the US market for civilian AK-pattern rifles is non-Izmash/Russian.

(The Saigas are Russian, but they're not even a plurality, as far as I know. Some of the best-regarded ones are Arsenal, and they're US/Bulgarian.)

Sigivald >

True, the Israeli Galil is the best AK variant IMO.

Barring that I really like the simplicities of M14 style actions as with Rugers Mini 30. The only thing it lacks for military applications is selective fire and a chrome lined barrel. For civilian use it rocks.

Of course on the ballistic front’s the newish 6.8 Remington SPC round (Also found in limited Mini -30 rifles) and the 6.5mm Grendal takes on a whole new look at “assault rifle” capabilities.

The nicest rifle I ever owned was a Valmet M-70 with wood furniture in .223. It was deadly accurate, shooting into about one minute of angle at 100 yards. I could hit the orange dots all day long with the iron sights.

The Valmet M-70 is a cleaned-up, tightened up version of the AK-47 with a revised gas system, chrome lined barrel and the same stamped metal receiver the AK has. I shot a lot of ammo through that thing for ten years, it -never- failed to cycle no matter what cheapie ammo I was using.

My favorite of course is the FN-FAL, but its more of a hairy monster than a thoroughbred. The one I had was a Frankenstein version assembled from parts kits and it was -ugly-, but I didn't come in last in High Power with it.

Maybe Izhmash should do what everybody else in Europe is doing, and re-locate to China. They can probably find some good Chinese Comrades to replace the gnarly old tree-root looking babushkas they've got running that assembly line these days. Rice is cheaper than vodka these days.

The Saiga being described by the newspaper imbecile is a semi-auto shotgun on a sporterized AK action, takes a five round magazine. They also make a very nice full-auto version with a pistol grip, a heavier barrel and a drum magazine. Twenty rounds of double-ought buck and sabot slugs... I want one! One for each hand!!!

Because... uhm... there might be zombies? Yeah, zombies, that's the ticket!

Knight99 said: "Fact is, if I was on a flat plain desert with about 2 miles between me and a few insurgents, I want a .50 cal Barret over anything else. In a jungle I’d want a light carbine with fat bullet."

I want a radio to call in an airstrike or artillery, thanks. Or maybe a mortar. Barrets are freakin' heavy, and anything over 800 yards if a camel farts someplace between you and the target, you're going to miss. Personally I'm having a good day if I keep it on the white with iron sights at 600 yards, that's about five feet wide. Of course I did see some guy at Walmart the other day about that big, so maaaaybe....

"No rifle in the world has been as reliable as this one"

Absolute Crap.

Given the choice, I'd take an FN FAL anyday....and so would most Commies.

But back to the subject: the bankrupcy of the company.

Nice to see that even Russia is suffering becuase it had its good ideas nicked by its 'friends', the chi-coms.

Is there a lesson here????? Stephen??? 'bama????

Knight 99...do you think a light carbine with a fat bullet would do the job with all that jungle...I am talking ricoccheting bullets...what type of fat bullet fits into a light carbine?

One thing about an M-16 (5.56) vs AK 47(7.62) is that it you can carry alot more ammunition with an M-16 that an AK-47 because the 7.62 is heavier...may not sound like much but carry 500 rounds of ammunition for a day...M-16 weapon is also lighter.

From my experience the best "small dead animal" gun is the ruger .223 target master with bull barrel. I have a rem 22-250 and sks 7.62x39 and shitload of cheap ammo, but for pure downfield accuracy and fun the ruger is the ultimate in fun. Amo from is cheap on the reload as I purchase barrels of brass and a keg of powder int eh good ole USSAfor pennies a round. Do not even need a PAL to bring across the border. Funny how I can buy enough supplies to start a good ole sask RM civil war and bring across the line but cannot purchase gopher rounds at the local coop without the PAL......

happy shooting

"Logic would suggest that if you can pick up the enemy's ammo you can pick up his rifle if you need it 'cause he won't be needing it any more than the ammo.Special forces use AKs because they don't announce 'here be the enemy' when they're fired."

You really think that in the *traditional role* of SF, that is the main reason they would use an AK on certain missions?

When I mentioned using the same ammo as the bad and good guys, it had nothing to do with taking it from a dead bad guy.

For awhile it was all the rage for obese internet ninjas to rant and rail about the failings of the AR15 and tout the advantages of the AK.

"It's more reliable....!!!" Well...yeah. It is more reliable because it's tolerances are non-existent. So is its accuracy for the most part. When you hear one of those acne scarred cellar dwellers yapping about 300-500 yard shots with the AK - tell him to go back to playing with his airsoft and action figures.

Your choices, men should include

-the AR15 and clones made by reputable makers
-the M1A and possibly the M14 clone made by Norinco
-Auto Ordnance has revived the ubiquitous M1 carbine AND the Thompson SMG in the chopper configuration. (Violin gun case is optional - I WANT IT!!!).
-I would give my left nut for that new HK MP7. FN has some really cool squirt guns available too!
-Finally, check out Robinson Arms! Accurate, affordable AND non-restricted - an important detail for those of you concerned with the gun laws drafted by the pasty faced liberals!

The AK belongs in the third world. You do not.

Just my two cents.

The Phantom >

Yea, it was a figure of speech to make an overall point. In reality I’d rather be on a beach sipping a pina colada instead of some stinking desert full of Arabs. Oh yea, been there, done that already.

Mike M >

The ballistic characteristics of heavy/ larger bore bullets in bush is well documented both from a military perspective and general bush hunting. A .310 cal AK bullet is far superior in the bush than a higher velocity .224 cal every time. A .44 cal even better.

There are plenty of good “bush cartridges” out there but in the context of this thread it’s a .310 over .224 and the AK wins hands down as was proven in Vietnam by US military claims.
Again there are differences in applications to be considered. Are we talking about squad support or a lone individual? Generally most of these SDA threads morph between “What the military should use” & “What I want to use”.

One nice little bush carbine used to be the Ruger .44 magnum carbine (Out of production), a handy little semi auto that was nearly a perfect civilian bush carbine albeit with a limited magazine capacity. (should Google it).

I have several different “bush rifles” myself that I use camping and fishing in the Alta/ BC mountains, I usually have either a Marlin 1894 in .357mag or .44mag or Savage 99 in .308 Win (loaded hot with 180gr Noslar Partitions for bear country) or a Ruger Mini 30 in 7.62x39mm as the mood that particular trip strikes me. All lightweight well balanced repeaters.

Hunting is altogether a different matter, requiring a variety different gun/ caliber selections, for me anyway.

Anyway in a nutshell "the science is settled" on the bush bucking abilities of heavy large verses light small calibers a long time ago.

The Phantom at September 5, 2012 5:26 PM

"I want a radio to call in an airstrike or artillery, thanks. "

Yeah that's SOP....

But if ya gotta do it yerself and have a genie to meet yer wish-list....I would draw a 25 pounder.

That said an M60 would deal with the subjects...well within range and the dispersion would not be such a big deal.

BTW...The Galil is based upon the Valmet....in fact the prototypes used Finnish bodies...

I had a TOZ pass through my hands a while back...chambered for .308...basically a Moisin-Nagant with a tang safety and detachable plastic magazine....chrome lined bore. Nice and light...excellant meat gun. It would knock the eye from a fly and leave the wings.

The hallmark of all the russian small arms is the chrome lined barrel....including the Suderev and Shpagin rippers.

Designed by genius to be operated by idiots.

I have more than a nodding relationship with AKs but prefer the SKS (Simonov)...

Cost of manufacture and auto-fire is not my priority....hitting the mark is.

AK's were designed for spray and pray...which they do well...sniping not so much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS

Best firearm is a handy one; that you can stick in your enemy's face.

That way you get to see the glorious sight of his eyes opening REAL WIDE!

I suspect the real reason Special Forces use an AK is because it helps them blend in. Seeing a goat herder with an M16 strapped over his back might be seen as just a little unusual. The sound of the rifle probabably has nothing to do with weapon selection. Once the shooting starts, the enemy will know something is up.

Is there any way to tell if an ak-47 is a real one or a knock off ?

Many years ago, some Israeli paratroopers where at Pet for an exchange and I got to fire a Galil; ho hum, not that impressive, not that accurate either, my FN shot much better. I love my AUG, it's the greatest rifle ever, and I have no good reason, I just love it. Now, if I could only pick one, it would be my M62S. Compact, and utterly reliable, I love it almost as much.

Paul..in short, yes. For a positive I.D at a glance, look first to the receiver. Early Chinese models were like the original AK and had a machined steel receiver. Later ones are cast. This is one of the main reasons knockoffs can be produced so cheaply outside of Russia.

Here is great resource on the various types.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/AK-47

Hmmm. Another interesting thread about the comparative virtues of small arms weaponry.

On a similar thread from a couple of months ago, I posted that since 1974 the Soviet/now Russian Federation forces have used the AK74 as their main battle line assault rifle. The 5.45 X 39 MM cartridge is actually smaller in diameter (by about .004 inch) but produces a more devastating wound channel than the 5.56 X 45 MM cartridge used by the M16/M4 and its variants. This is due to the former having a bullet with an internal cavity behind the nose tip, behind which is a lead inlay which is in turn backed up by a steel core. The result of this somewhat complicated but well designed round is that it's practically guaranteed to tumble 100% of the time, even with barrel lengths cut down to a mere eight inches.
From what I've read, the tumbling effect with the latter (5.56 MM)is a hit or miss propostion, especially with the 16 inch barrel length of the M4 which has been reduced from the original M16 length of 20 inches. Another interesting fact about the 5.45 X 39 MM cartridge: it has a steel casing as opposed to brass.

Anyway, as a fledgling weapons designer, I find these weapons discussions on SDA very interesting and informative.

Re: "No rifle in the world has been as reliable as this one"
Absolute Crap. Given the choice, I'd take an FN FAL anyday....and so would most Commies.

Hear, hear. I agree 100%. I suffered through the “transition” in the CF from 7.62 to .223. The .223 may excel in trajectory, but there was a reason all those m-14’s were pulled out of moth-balls for use by active US units and their “designated marksman”. .223 is easy to shoot for females & PONTI’s, but there was a reason that the FAL was called the” right arm of the free world”.
It comes down to basic science, a 168 grain bullet going 2800 +/- FPS will result in a “pink mist” at 400 meters., a 55 grain bullet going the same distance has less than 1/3 the same energy, resulting in “Ouch” or “Missed me again”.

Wow guys, I was typing from my rear orifice, but it is good to read the various opinions.
My wish list is trending Ruger 14 and 10/22, Remington tactical 870 and a .357 Magnum.
Next year , if all goes well, I'll be dug out of the current hole I'm in.
d

Dwright >

“My wish list is trending Ruger 14 and 10/22, Remington tactical 870 and a .357 Magnum.”

Good picks!

Today’s Mini 14’s are a much improved version of the early models with the thin strait barrel. Mine was bought in the early nineties and always shot crap accuracy +/- 6” 100yrds open sites. I corrected it with an Accu-Strut barrel brace (looks cool), then threw on an ATI stock and an Aimpoint red dot that mounts on the forward like a scout rifle. (the old mini 14’s didn’t receive a scope properly).

Anyway looks great, shoots fine now, but weighs a friggen ton in the front end. Definitely not a good balance for swing shooting, but it does tame all recoil to nonexistent. Like shooting a .22lr.

Another thing I did for performance was handload 60gr soft points @ 2888fps (chrony’d). This reduces the wear and tear on the barrel and action over higher velocity 55 gr. varmint loads or military FMJ that “needs the speed”. Also the longer 60gr stabilizes much better in the Mini’s 1-7 twist for better accuracy (not sure if it’s still 1 in 7 for the newer ones).

*I'm not looking for fragmenting or tumbling bullets as varmiters or military does.

Anyway a great little plinker and a very decent serious gun if needed. It’s not my first go-to gun for anything but fun anymore, but they hold their own with the best more expensive .223 semi’s on the market. Tweeking them up makes a big difference as well.

I wouldn't trade my FN-FAL for three AKs.

The AK was designed to be easily used by hastily trained peasant conscripts while the FAL was designed for highly trained professional soldiers. Apples and oranges.

Incidentally a buddy of mine was in Malaysia fixing RAF airplanes that transported and resupplied the SAS counter-insurgency forces that raided the guerrilla camps. The preferred tactic of the guerrillas was an ambush in the thick jungle undergrowth where you couldn't see five feet. The SAS weapon of choice in response was a Winchester semi-auto shotgun with the interrupter pawl removed to make the gun fire in full auto. On patrol every man had a sector to cover, when something went bang everyone dropped and sprayed their assigned sector with buckshot. On the flight back to base the SAS would field strip the shotgun to replace the pawl as full-auto shotguns were forbidden by the Geneva convention.

The best tool for the job depends on the job being undertaken.

Had to carry one around for 26 months. Very much the same as in the picture. Nice piece of machinery. Very simple.
The only thing that was not good about it was cleaning it up after live fire exercises. Surprising as it may sound, cigarette ash worked the best.
It has this piston and gas chamber that need to be cleaned a lot so they don’t corrode. It’s in your own interest since it can blow up if the things don’t slide smoothly.

The piston is pushed back by the gas from previous bullet to reload. You can shoot one at a time or a whole magazine of 32.

Knight99 said: "Yea, it was a figure of speech to make an overall point."

Hey, you went there. Closest I ever got was two weeks at Petawawa. Just pulling on your chain a little.

If you want to see a -fat- bullet check out the .50 Beowulf in an AR-15. Never shot it but I'm reading about it lately. I don't know if it would be much deflected by small hills, never mind brush. Stacks single row in an AR mag with the proper follower, roughly the same length as a .223 but ~half an inch in diameter. Fun stuff!

The Phantom >

“Hey, you went there. Closest I ever got was two weeks at Petawawa. Just pulling on your chain a little.”

Yup, I knew that all along, never felt my chain pulled in the slightest.

Yup, I also spent a decade in the deserts of North Africa and the ME, but not military. I do know my Arabs well enough though. The closest military action I’ve seen were the government mandatory military escorts that accompanied me for 2 years travelling around the deserts in Algeria. There were quite a few killings that happened around me, but none that I was involved with directly (Bandits and Jihadi’s mostly, some Algerian locals and a few expats). Plus getting caught up once in a daytime shootout bank robbery downtown Port Mosby in Papua New Guinea a couple of years ago between militarized police and some gangsters, they had bigger guns and got away on foot, from what I could tell.

Otherwise I’m just an avid lifelong gun enthusiast and hunter.

LOL the .50 Beowulf is one cool round!

The one I’ve been eyeballing lately as a round of interest is the 300 AAC Blackout, which runs on an AR15 assembly.

"I suspect the real reason Special Forces use an AK is because it helps them blend in."
I agree and they can give the AK away to the friendlies or use them as bribes.

300 AAC Blackout sounds a lot like the .300 Whisper. Which I see is also offered in an AR-15 by Smith and Wesson.

The Phantom >

“300 AAC Blackout sounds a lot like the .300 Whisper”

Exactly!

I brought it up because it looks to be a great compromise for those that like the AR platform and the 7.62x39mm ballistics. Their very close in given bullet weights.

I like the versatility concepts with all the available .308” bullet selections, up to 220gr for subsonic. Apparently it works well silenced by Utube video reviews. Sort of a hand-loaders paradise me thinks, custom built it to your needs.

dwright.

S&W MP15 out of the box fail to function. Sent back.

SA AK-variant off the shelf? 2 years and still runs.