I live there. help me.

I voted 'YES' for the review of Bipole lll.*
We've gotta keep the Dippers honest and cleaving to their double-plus-good green principles.
After all, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
(also it just might use some of the $s and A-holes that would otherwise be clogging up the Northern Gateway pipeline review)

*Saint Jack of the Velvet Touch would have wanted it that way...after all...the NDP are the Conscience of Parliament...snigger

Easy answer: do nothing.

The construction cost differential is only the beginning.

Two words: line losses.

Reminds me of an episode of Green Acres. Hooterville town council made sure the route of the new highway went past the property of every important man in town. The engineer drew a straight line.

Guess we know who's doing the planning in Sask.

Pardon me, Manitoba. D'oh!

Saskabushers, please don't throw things at me.

The west route is best, but should go from The Pas to Regina and then back to Winnipeg. That way they could pick up all the extra power from Wall's egg beaters.

To an NDP government, that long route just means more money donated to the Party from the increased union dues all that extra work will generate.

Socialist economics . . . transferring public wealth from the pockets of workers to NDP re-election coffers.

Where are the greenies in all of this? Why aren't they screaming from the rooftops?

There's a CBC poll going horribly wrong in the middle of the linked piece; right now "forget the review, just build it already" is in the lead at 51%.

I don't know the terrain; if it's similar on both routes, that critique applies perfectly.

If it's radically different, the long route might be better in practical terms.

I'll assume that's not the case or someone would have mentioned it in the article.

However, if they are for some legal reason required to actually give a flying copulation about UNESCO decisions, having to avoid the proposed heritage site might be necessary.

And stupid.

Sigivald -

The east route has less rivers and lakes to go through or around and unless I remember wrong, is mostly Canadian Shield.

The West route almost travels as far through farmland and prairie as it does through forest and Canadian Shield, and also has the advantage of having many more rivers and lakes to skirt.

Short answer - the East route is not only much shorter, but just as easy as the West route.

Larry, line losses are trivial. It's a DC transmission system, not AC.

I can see an eoonomic rationale for the western route if Manitoba Hydro is planning to sell into Saskatchewan, which has higher marginal power rates than does Manitoba.

Despite being shorter, the eastern route is through a lot of country very thinly inhabited with a lot less road infrastructure. It may well be more expensive than simply looking at lines on a map.

"I voted 'YES' for the review of Bipole lll.*"

You believe in cutting off your own nose to spite your face, do you?

That Western route runs past my old home town. It would be nice for the folks that live there to get the jobs building the line,but all the people of working age left years ago,and there's only old folks left.

You just KNEW if the NDP had anything to do with it,it'd be done way over budget,and it's safe to say the completion date can also be moved back a couple of years.

The UN won't be happy until Canada is declared a giant park. Devoid of Canadians of course.

Build a retaining wall as high as the Golden Boy. Fill with water and create a generating station.

Two problems solved.

The western route will be near the railway to Churchill. A lot of the supplies could be shipped by rail. The eastern route does not have that option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Route_Map_of_Hudson_Bay_Railway.svg

You believe in cutting off your own nose to spite your face, do you?

Not at all.

Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules. “You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”
~Rules for Radicals (1971, Saul Alinsky)

Manitobans voted for the NDP again, and they should get the NDP(and the principles it stands for) good and hard.

West route 1 Billion more. Guess witch the NDP will take?

Never mind Bipole III, these guys are simply bipolar.

How about regular math?

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Thus time, materials and cost would be minimized with the route having the least distance, delivering power in the most efficient manner.

Shameless disclaimer:

http://www.hydro.mb.ca/corporate/facilities/gs_grand_rapids.shtml

My father was an engineer on the Grand Rapids project, back in 1960-61 and also worked on "Duff's Ditch" floodway control for "Winterpeg".

For more on Conawapa and Keeyask:

http://www.hydro.mb.ca/projects/conawapa.shtml

http://www.hydro.mb.ca/projects/keeyask/index.shtml

Cheers

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

I vote for the longer line that costs twice as much. They are idiot socialists and don't know any other way. A UNESCO World Heritage site? More idiots! We have millions of acres of stunted bush that isn't going anywhere soon. Nobody wants to live there anyway except some ethnic minority that likes it because it's a long way from jobs.

That Western route runs past my old home town. It would be nice for the folks that live there to get the jobs building the line...

Yes, obviously the point of the whole exercise is jobs. Not to get the power from one point to another.

Ever hear of the broken window fallacy?

The east route goes through lots of reserves, and word thus far is that in exchange for the line going though the First Nations communities want a cut. Not to mention getting them all to agree at the same time. On top of that is the UNESCO bullshit, because everyone knows we'll be swamped with tourists wanting to see bog and experience mosquitoes. ///

The results of that CBC poll....speak volumes....

Perhaps it will give Parliament a swift solution to the Northern Gateway review roadblock. Simply dismiss the review panel and build.

Logic says the east line will win as they already have two magic words in them. Green/East. Of course the west line will cost a billion more for the same end result and if government is involved all bets go out the window. Logic or a billion, hmmm.

The main transmission lines from Limestone and Longsruce gen stations actually come down between the lakes via Grand Rapids don't they?
Why not utilize the same rights-of-way and some of the same infastructure?
Distance-wise, it would probably fall midway between the proposed routes anyway.
Naw, too simple!

cgh, the line losses are estimated at $240 million. That's not trivial.

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief My dad was on both jobs to. That's interesting. He was grout foreman.

FYI, the CBC Poll at the article's web page is currently 90+% in favor of building the Project. C'mon, SDA'ers, go vote for sanity and progress!

Hans ... a@c ... long lost brothers perhaps :)

@ a@c:

Re: Grand Rapids

Too funny, brings back some memories of my mother and the family going for an outing only to be chased by momma bear for 5-6km while my mother was 7 months pregnant with the second set of twins. Fortunately, she didn't go into labour immediately. Shortly, thereafter my father purchased a Winchester 30-30. Good call as the running was getting somewhat tiring...

Also my first encounter with rather large wolf who came through the bush into the townsite... Running through the bush I pulled away some underbrush from my path and it was 'Dances with Wolves', while I was about 4 or 5 years old, as we both stared at each other somewhat surprised. Standing about a foot apart, we both bolted in the other direction after a staring at each other for about 5 full seconds.

But hey we have always lived somewhat dangerously...!

Cheers

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

It is looking very Bipolar

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief Les was my dad, Lloyd his brother-in-law

@ a@c:

My dad is retired now (82) but his mind is pretty sharp so I'm going to ask if he remembers next time I see him!

Cheers

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

Manitoba is add this generating capacity to sell electricity.

If the line is that much closer to Saskatchewan, it may indeed indicate a long term deal to sell to us here.

A Sask. connection could connect farther north for the northern mines, and again farther south for the potash expansion needs.

For Sask. this is the most economical option, as hydro power is cheaper than any alternative generating system.

A straight line would be more cost/effective if they were going to sell the power to the U.S. at North Dakota.

The Black Rod has done a good job of following this story. According to sworn testimony before the Public Utilities Board the reason for changing the route was simple, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.b bullied Doer into changing it or face the consequences.

Oz, my apologies. The existing proposal really is utter garbage after reading this:
http://bipoleiiicoalition.ca/reports/BP%20III.pdf

Looks like yet another case of Yankee ENGOs (that little snot RFK Jr) killing yet another Canadian hydraulic infrastructure project. That filthy little b*st*rd has already done it once to Canadian hydraulic with the cancellation of Grande Balleine in the mid 1990s.

Now he's doing it again. When are we going to declare him persona non grata?

Yes, Oz, you're right. Manitobans deserve the consequence of their actions for electing one dipper administration after another.

DC transmission system??? I call your bluff dude. Three generations of Ontario Hydro in my family. DC transmission died back when Alex Bell was a lad.

cgh, thanks for the link. That coalition report is interesting reading. Feelings, not economics seems to be winning.

BTW, good name for RFK Jr.

UNESCO eh, this has the strong odor of Agenda 21 in it.

Ken, I think you're dead on with this. It indeed reeks of A21 and all of the other garbage which came with the Rio Declaration. And who were the principal authors of A21? The Brundtland Commission on Sustainable Development and that cr@pulous little piece of corrupt pustulence, Mo Strong.

Can anyone tell me if there's ANY meaningful distinction between the dippers and the greens? Once upon a time, socialism in its old Stalinist version meant big, big support for heavy industry, economic growth, production and all that. Five Year Plans were all about how much steel production and ttactors had increased. And the dippers were that way too in the original CCF days. Which is why they had all this union support. Seems to me the hard left, not the watermelon left, has really lost its way and been absorbed by the granola munchers.

And don't get me started on RFK or the rest of that pestilential clan. I despise that entire family. Nothing more than jumped-up Irish Boston mafia. The real misery of it all is we've had to live with JFK as the martyr for the past 50 years.

Now see what you've done? I got started, and I'm going to make myself stop....right now.

@cgh: here is your money quote!

"Additionally the west side route passes through the most severe storm prone area in the province, which is near the Pembina valley escarpment. Twenty five years ago Hydro recognized this vulnerability by placing its distribution lines underground in this area, commonly referred to as “tornado alley”. Hence one of the primary reasons for building this line,for reliability purposes, is severely reduced by placing it in such a hazardous location."

So when tornado alley produces and ice storm like in Quebec a couple of years back the people relying on the power will once again be in the DARK.

The EAST SIDE route avoids this significant vulnerability!!

They need to dummy up to some weather realities....

Cheers

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

Hans, that whole bloody report was full of money quotes. Like how it only has 2/3 the capacity of the eastern route.

Bob Brennan must be fuming.

For years now.

The UNESCO excuse seems to be as phony as the 'last untouched boreal forest in the world' meme.

From what I can tell, looking at a small scale map, the transmission line would be scores, if not hundreds of miles from the UNESCO site and thus should have no impact on it whatsoever.

I'm reminded of a big protest against a housing development that was going to be built adjacent too the boundary of Waterton National Park. My thouhgt was "what part of boundary don't you understand?"

cgh:

Larry, line losses are trivial. It's a DC transmission system, not AC.

Humminaa? Everything I learned in my EE classes told me that 1) it's easier to convert AC voltage levels than DC voltage levels (even with modern inverters, there's still more loss changing voltages at DC than AC), and 2) higher voltages result in lower line currents, hence lower losses. So, transmission lines are usually AC because of lower line losses.

Care to elaborate on your statement?

During the recent provincial election, the liberast candidate Jon Gerrard proposed that Bipole III go UNDER lake Winnipeg.

...Liberal leader Jon Gerrard proposed that instead of building the line down the east or west, Manitoba Hydro should put the cable under Lake Winnipeg as proposed by Dr. John Ryan, retired University of Winnipeg professor in 2008.
...

Having lived in Manitoba for some time, the most surprising part of that story for me was that the University of Winnipeg had apparently graduated something approximating an engineer at some point in its history.

cgh at 9:24 PM,
S'Okay, we mostly see eye to eye.
Sometimes it takes a few minutes for the elements of an issue to gel.

DC transmission lines do indeed have advantages for the bulk transmission of power over long distances. Line losses are lower because inductive coupling to the ground is eliminated.

Here's a link; http://hvdc.atcoelectric.com/NR/rdonlyres/B4185C91-A96A-46E1-9BCD-30FDA6CBEEF6/0/AtcoFactSheetPROOF6a.pdf

Kevin, Gord's right about the long distance losses. DC works for Manitoba because there's only two conversion points, at the generating station and at the end of the line in Winnipeg. There's no drop off stations for local supply between. When you have a long line with only two end points, inductive coupling to ground is much larger than conversion losses.

Years ago, Hydro Quebec would have done the same thing for James Bay 1. However, there was no mature DC transmission technology at the time, so they had to use the next best thing, which was their 750 AC transmission from JB 1 and from Churchill Falls. Over past 20 years, all new long distance transmission in Quebec is I believe 240 DC.

Hydro Quebec is interesting. It's out of synchronisation with the rest of North America. So to export to NEPOOL in the US, electricity is tranmitted down to the border near Chateauguay. There's an AC/DC converter system there that actually makes the border crossing, where it then connects to the New England system.

I am not sure how we got on to the canard of DC versus AC for transmission.

Of course I assume that any long transmission line built these days is HVDC. That is not the point.

HVDC is not a superconductor. The longer the line of HVDC, the higher the line losses will be.

It's quite correct to think that a longer HVDC could have lower lines losses than a shorter AC line might. It is not correct to think that a longer HVDC line will have lower line losses than a shorter HVDC line.

If you choose to send electricity along a longer route, not only will it mutatis mutandis cost you more money to build, you will operate that line with larger line losses going forward. Those going forward losses have a present actuarial value and I'll bet dollars to donuts that's not included in the estimate of the "cost differential".

Never under-estimate the power of political logic to overcome normal standards of logic and efficiency. In Kentucky the topography of the land would dictate that the interstate linking Lexington (the 2nd largest city in the State) and the State Capitol at Frankfort should be a straight shot. Instead it takes a big detour to pass by Versailles (pronounced Ver-sales)Ky. Why? At the time the highway was built, Versailles was the hometown of the Governor of Ky, "Happy" Chandler who wanted to be able to step out the door and motor to Frankfort at his convenience.

Similarly, Airline Hwy in Louisiana runs from near the State Capitol in Baton Rouge to New Orleans where it finally becomes Tulane Ave ending near the old Roosevelt Hotel, which was Huey Long's HQ as Gov. when he motored to New Orleans from the Capitol bldg in B.R.

Hans, I gotta ask why the tag line? Who's army?

Why such a long signature line? A simple soft return after your name would work better than 3 returns.

Here's an example:

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

I grew up in northern Manitoba. On the west side we have bush till central Manitoba where it then resolves into prime farmland which can easily be expropriated. On the east we have bush and indians until almost Winnipeg. Indians want roads, NDP wants a world heritage site. Not just the math that's stupid.

Gord, cgh:

Thanks - I guess that's what happens when you stop going to "continuing education" classes!

Hydro Quebec didn't use AC back in the day rather than HVDC because they didn't have the technology, but because (at the time) the leaders in HVDC in Canada were English Electric UK ( no longer exists) and the "maudits anglais" weren't going to get the contract unless hell froze over. Period.

If there was a real economic reason to route west rather than east, they should say so. A billion up front & time is a TONNE of money can will do massive harm to the project profitability.

For the time + a billion, you could a lot better things. For instance I'd bet you could run optic cable to everyone in any community of any consequence in the province and wire the entire province to wicked fast internet. Might have some economic value, help rural communities?

Who knows, I'm SURE there are economically better things to do with a billion.

I think the first question has to be "what are you going to do with the electricity these damns will generate". The NDP have a grand history of building damns for "economic developement". Then they give away the power or spill the water. Of course it should be on the East, down the West at the narrows the existing lines come so close you can almost touch them. One Kaboom would darken the Province.

Apparently the price of natural gas may drop the need for bipole 3