Everyone for them self. So whats new.

No! Women & Children are the responsibility of the UN/EU . If they don't exist and show up!.. Tough love baby!

It is sexist but so be it. As a man, that would be a burden I choose to bear.
Helps me to feel not so guilty when I am a sexist pig elsewhen.

It's a strange world we live in that when I hold the door open for a women that I don't know, I guard against being kicked in the groin for being sexist.

I am kinda of glad old sex roles are extinct like the dodo. I'm a pretty big farm boy. There better not be a 100 pound women in my spot on the lifeboat. Hope she can swim.

When faced with what could be a horrible death, it takes a great amount of courage and discipline to help others to safety, at the risk of you own safety. These attributes are not taught in our "me first" entitlement society. No one should be surprised about this at all.

mid island mike

I hope that this isn't the standard emergency evacuation procedure for the rest of the Carnival Cruise fleet.

I read the story in the _Mail Online_. The most instructive--and disturbing--aspect of the story was the comments posted under it. I estimate that one half of the male commenters felt that we were "beyond" that antiquated Victorian dictum of "women and children first." Some of them boasted--that's the only word for it--that they would have been at the head of the line knocking down women, children, and the elderly to save themselves.

I was reminded of the words Robert Graves put in Antonia Minor's mouth (the Emperor Claudius' mother) to explain why she has decided to commit suicide during the reign of Caligula, in the novel _I, Claudius_, (I paraphrase) "I was born into a world of human beings, I now find myself in a world of animals."

By the way, a@c, "Everyone for [him]self" is new, at least as the default moral position of large numbers of men. The paradigm of civilized manhood, even in my youth--I'm now 58--was that men protected women, children, and the weak. Individual men might fail to do so, but they were scorned as poltroons for not living up to the paradigm. Contrast the behavior of the male passenger on the Titanic in 1912 (and no, the 1997 movie did _not_ get it right; the 1958 movie, _A Night to Remember_, based on the book by that title, is much more accurate, especially regarding the selfless sacrifice of the male passengers in first class).

Back in 1994, soon after I had moved to Sudbury, Ontario, I was told by a young feminist to F-off. Why? Because I opened a door for her.

I am NOT kidding.

Italian stallion show boating????

tell me it ain't so!!!

after WW2, the joke was, you want to buy a good unused rifle cheep, only thrown down once

Italians and the French are hot blooded, not men so much

The captain does not seem to have been an experienced mariner. He entered the company in the security section in 2002, according to one report.
Undoubtedly he put the company first, second, and third, and was mainly required to romance the ladies.

Not like a Cunarder crew that I sailed with. Essential RN types. Not perhaps the most fun people, but they got us through a field of icebergs in the Straie of Belle Isle.
And noone doubted that had it hit an iceberg, it would have been women and children first, crew last, and captain not at all.

This is what happens when feminists in their zeal to demean men at every level, than make the atmosphere so poisonous that any man who dares to be chivalrous is considered a wimp or insulting towards Women. Just by helping them.

Its why no one bothers to let pregnant Women sit down on buses anymore, or open doors for Ladies. Your likely more than to be slapped if not sued doing it, or being laughed in the face. We have all been socialized that this is demeaning to Women.
In mixed Hockey you learn to hit Women as well.
In the corporate World their just competitors.
Men by certain groups are just walking sperm banks with a credit card.
So is it any wonder that its become dog eat dog? Every person for themselves? I mean the Golden rule is considered to Religious, or full of bigotry these days as its defined by an ever more radical atheism .
I don't think its right, but entirely predictable.
You raise people to think their animals they will act like it.
You tell men to treat you like an equal in every way. Than discourage them to help, than they will become what you wanted.

Real men accept responsibility, shun passivity, lead courageously, and look to the greater reward.

Belle Isle is where the Detroit riots started,tough territory (:-).

Forget, the man,woman,or child question. The employees ,no matter what rank,must look after the customer,male or female.

I still believe in women first,but I'm old.

I wasn't there, so this isn't a fair comment, but.. from every picture, it looks like the boat isn't even 100 yards offshore. What self-respecting man pushes a woman out of the way to get into a lifeboat when he could swim the 100 yards?

Robert, Pat, ..if you opened the door for me you would get my smile and thanks.
I'm a REAL Woman.

(Robert you have my sympathy for living in Sudbury)

Robert W, you should have dragged that beetch out of the building and made her hold her own door open.

There are no ethics, professional or moral, period. Why help the passengers or women and children first? It's just not "progressive".

The Birkenhead Drill
To take your chance in the thick of a rush, with firing all about,
Is nothing so bad when you’ve cover to ’and, an’ leave an’ likin’ to shout;
But to stand an’ be still to the Birken’ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew,
An’ they done it, the Jollies – ’Er Majesty’s Jollies – soldier an’ sailor too!
Their work was done when it ’adn’t begun; they was younger nor me an’ you;
Their choice it was plain between drownin’ in ’eaps an’ bein’ mopped by the screw,
So they stood an’ was still to the Birken’ead drill, soldier an’ sailor too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FooVB8XA6Gg

http://www.titanicsociety.com/readables/main/articles_04-01-2004_birkenhead_vs_titanic.asp

Why should we be surprised that it was everyone for themselves, this is the 20/21 century where manners have all but disappeared especially in the west. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that most of the crew were poorly paid and come from poor countries. I'll be pc and not comment on their probable nationalities but one could guess. As a result their first thought would probably be, "why should I risk my life to help a bunch of spoiled rich white westerners.

I lived in Sudbury for 5 years, working for the mighty INCO. It was actually a great time of my life. I think Sudbury, and Northern Ontario generally, gets an unfair rap from those in Southern Ontario. IMO.

KevinB, You and I may be able to swim the 100 yards,or we would try,but the emasculated ones likely could not.

Therefore the women,children first edict held true in this case. Having a penis does not make you a man, ....Chaz,,,,,

I'm not going to be drawn into the pointless "women deserve this because of the feminists" or "men are such a-holes" stuff. I find gender based self pity lame. I'd like to think that helping someone who needs assistance (elderly, disabled, child) is not a man thing but a civilized human thing. I certainly wouldn't wait before helping a child.

From experience, I do know that men who are the worst to work with and men who are easy to work with follow a general pattern:

worst to best
young men => divorced men/unmarried men => married men => married men with children => married men with daughters => grandfathers

The civilizing effect I talked about is very definitely associated with maturity and responsibility for others. Not a novel argument but one that too often gets lost in the gender wars.

I think we *might* find that this is overblown by the media. Did it happen once or twice? I don't doubt that possibility.

Was it rampant? Hmmmmmm...not so ready to believe that.

NME666: "after WW2, the joke was, you want to buy a good unused rifle cheep, only thrown down once"

Go read up on the combat history of the Folgore division and then come back and say it. And while you are at it, go check the combat records of the Bersaglieri regiments. Typically they all fought much harder and better than the Germans did in Africa. And I dare you to say it in a room full of Legionnaires.

Revnant Dream, I think you put your finger on the underlying common factor in many of our social issues when you said "We have all been socialized that this is demeaning to Women".

The operative word is socialized. This is the logical extension of Marx's idea that women should be in the work force doing the same hard labour in the field or factory that men did in the past.

The Soviets also had labour camps for women and they died there at the same rate as the men in their camps. Some of them also had the dubious pleasure of being playthings for the guards, until a prettier one came along.

I still open doors for ladies. Those that don't like it can rub salt.

Like wallyj, I am getting a little long in the tooth.

I still open doors and let ladies go first here in Toronto. Some say "Thank you", the rest it's fun to watch the looks on their faces. I won't say which ones look like they expect it.

The subject of chivalry is a bit of a red herring, the focus should be on the complete ineptitude of the Captain and crew (waiters and cabin service staff excepted). Captain Sullenberger - who rode a double engine failure into the Hudson - exemplifies the role of a Captain, he was the last man off not only the plane, but also the life raft after ensuring the safety of all his passengers and crew. His crew performed perfectly as well, iirc.

It shouldn't matter if you're driving a bus, plane, train or boat; If the safety of your passengers isn't your highest priority, then you've chosen the wrong profession. I wouldn't hire the Captain of that cruise ship to tie my canoe to a dock, he's proven he isn't cut out for responsibility.

Take that for what it's worth, coming from a guy in Sudbury that holds doors open for women.

The idea of "women and children first" may be driven by the notion of chivalry, but that in turn is the result of something even more basic - biology.

Not surprisingly, Heinlein explained it all years ago:

"All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplus age, excrescence, adornment, luxury or folly which can--and must--be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a “perfect society” on any foundation other than “women and children first!” is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly--and no doubt will keep on trying."

A society can lose 90% of its men and still recover IF the children (the next generation) and the young women (who produce the next generation) are saved. After all, one man can impregnate ten women if that's what it take for a civilization to recover.

But lose the women and the youngsters, and you're done - just another species that flunked the ultimate test of survival.

The fact that we have "men" today who would elbow their way to the lifeboats does not speak well for our future. But the fact that their actions are being condemned (at least to some degree) still offers some hope.

Robert you're being a little Anglo centric in your expectations.

Yiannis Avranas, and the crew were among the first to leave the sinking cruise liner Oceanos. Greek captain Yiannis Avranas stated, "When I give the order abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave. Abandon is for everybody. If some people want to stay, they can stay."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/11/weekinreview/headliners-career-overboard.html

IF 'scar' is a "big farm boy" and he hopes the woman who would take his place in the lifeboat can swim, he may wish there is a female outfit that might fit him. Chivalry is not dead. No matter how ill behaved some men and those in positions of responsibility turn out to be in dire situations, most men and women for that matter, take their duties seriously on land and sea. Men still open doors for women because it is a decent thing to do. Wherever I go, I always am met with a smile and a door being opened for me. It has always been that way and now that I have grey hair, I am even more appreciative of that gesture.
Decency and chivalry is not dead, it is just that the ill mannered boors make so much more noise and tramp all over the place making themselves obnoxious.
The telling truth in this ship mishap is that the Captain is in jail on dry land and 17 of his passengers are nowhere to be found and at least 5 are dead. That some passengers had to fight the crew for a place in a lifeboat is shameful.

The Costa Costanza

Decency and chivalry isn't dead in my grey-haired generation. We still treat women with respect and children deserve our help above all others. We were raised with manners and respect for elders. Unfortunately that seems to have disappeared in the fast paced urban metrosexual dog-eat-dog world. Fortunately I live in a small town where old-fashioned Canadian values still prevail.

I'm a Mariner, most of my friends are either Mariners or the have been Mariners. If you want to see people get deadly angry about something, talk to one of them about a Captain that takes his ship into shallow water to toot the horn for a politician, tears the bottom out of her and then elbows people out of the way to get off his sinking ship while he still has passengers on board. He should be hung for murder. Drowning innocent people!! Abandoning his ship while passengers were in danger?

The first rule is: The Master SHALL use all means at his disposal to ensure the safe passage of his vessel and the safety of his passengers.

Reminds me of the Montreal Massacre. Ghahil Garbi the Muslim Mass Murderer, shoots 14 women, but first tells the men to leave, all the metrosexual men leave without a sound, and then the Moslem Mass Murderer goes to work. The Moslem Mass Murderer is not condemned, the cowardly young men of Quebec are not condemned. But Liberal Canada must condemn someone or something. So they attack the lawful gunowners of Canada the hunters and farmers and punish them, for the cowardice of the Quebecers and the crimes of the Moslem Mass Murderer....

Interesting how women figuratively kick you in the groin when you do a kindness for them such as giving up your seat on the bus, opening a door,(you know the stuff your mom and grandmother taught you was the gentlemanly thing to do)--when there is no risk to their life. How quickly that changes when there is real risk and then they quickly revert to the old maxim..."what ever happened to women and children first...waaaaahh!!!" Fu@kin' hypocrites!!

"I still open doors for ladies. Those that don't like it can rub salt."
Absolutely, Ken.
I take pleasure in a mannered "thank you"; but I think I'd take even greater pleasure in an offended reaction. Mockery of the offended party would prompt even more joy.

Children are the priority, and their mothers/fathers/guardians should go with them to ensure their survival.

For the rest, it's everyone for him/herself. I don't expect special treatment, nor should I.

Women and children first isn't some old fashioned sense of good manners - it is a survival strategy. It's easier to find sperm carriers than fertile women and the young of both sexes, the politically correct and feminists notwithstanding.

cgh
"Go read up on the combat history of the Folgore division and then come back and say it. And while you are at it, go check the combat records of the Bersaglieri regiments. Typically they all fought much harder and better than the Germans did in Africa."

So we are left with a problem of why superior Italian troops who outnumbered inferior British troops surrendered in the hundreds of thousands. The Folgore Division did fight instead of surrender and was handed its a$$.

Having served with Italians in Bosnia and in Afghanistan, I can say this for them. They have really cool-looking combat uniforms--and when their female soldiers wear them...they definitely look sexy.

The men on here declaring for chivalry are all old, they have nothing a modern woman wants. It's easy to be polite to people that don't want anything from you. The men who are willing to grab a seat in the lifeboat are all of marrying age and know what grasping, selfish modern women are like. Morally and logically yes, women and children first, but after 3 decades of socialist propaganda in schools and society, what do you expect? I'd put children ahead of me, but women? Yeah, wait your turn, you got your equal pay for equal work, you can bear some "equality" now.

".... The civilizing effect I talked about is very definitely associated with maturity and responsibility for others. Not a novel argument but one that too often gets lost in the gender wars"

LC Bennett, I hope you aren't suggesting that women "civilize" men. The truth is quite the oposite .... women DOMESTICATE men. MEN civilize men (or not).

MM

'nuff said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueh_1PeJhaQ

Leadership, Scar, it always comes down to leadership. And let's not forget that the British had their mass surrenders too, namely Singapore.

And who said the Italians were superior at Sidi Barani? First they were conscripts with no training and no heavy equipment, quite unlike the British. And they were effectively out of supply. Do you want me to cite you a list of African battles where the Italians fought very hard and successfully, or do you want to give up on this military bigotry right now?

What else would one expect fro Italians?