Just goes to show that the Swiss generally are smarter than Canadian Libs and NDP's.

Oh Canada, we stand on guard for thee . . . Well, maybe not so much.

We stand on guard for thee only as long as we don't use excessive force.

Why do I suspect that home invasion stats are on the low side in Switzterland?

I recall a remark from a German lefty.....
He was celebrating Europe "sensible gun-laws" and how they suppressed violence (Badder-Meinhoff was still loose at the time).
When Switzerland was mentioned....
"Oh yes the Swiss problem."
Swiss rates of violence are extremely low....the article is engaging in misinformation....Switzerland has had no incidences of terrorism.....the terrorists may be crazy but they are not stupid.......
Swiss suicide rates have always been significant....attributed to the Alpine "helm wind".....much like Calgary seems to go suicidal during a Chinook.....

Strangely the gun control mob seem to be missing the point that home invasions and forceable rape is almost nonexistant in that country, shocker.

So, the prim, humourless, snobbish Swiss - with their chocolate and skiing and their dodgy banking and neutrality and their cuckoo-clocks - the Swiss are now the butch men (and women) of Europe.

O tempora, o weirdness.

i knew a young swiss fellow....10 years ago...a railroad nut so i indulged him...seemed a nice young man...over here studying english which is a freebee from the state over there...he was just a hewer of wood from what i gathered ..

anyway...he went home and at some point after his return committed suicide with his militia weapon..

sasquatch..

from my recollections the wind that obtained re your remark...in Switzerland was called the 'foehn'....

at any rate there is no wind as devilish and destructive as the 'white man's wind'...it's a canadian phenomenon...

have you heard of it ?

The Swiss give me a little bit of hope that things might improve in Europe.

Oh, and John Begley: Your point is what exactly?

Okay, I own a lot of guns, but even I would hesitate to keep a gun like that one lying around.

It's obvious to me the intent of households keeping a weapon like this is not for "home defense". You can protect you home with a double barrel shotgun. These weapons are owned by well trained men, with the intent of defending their country. Switzerland has managed to hold onto traditional values, and that's quite an accomplishment.

Can you imagine the mayhem, if a multi-cultural society like ours suddenly had a Sig SG in every home? I think I'd go camping for a couple of weeks.

According to the story there is a Swiss political party that trust the citizens to possess firearms, and acknowledges their role in in self-defence both of themselves and of the nation.

I envy them. I wish we had a political party like that in Canada.

In the Swiss case, it's not so much a right to bear arms as a responsibility to bear arms. As I understand it they have universal reserve military service. Their regular forces are not much more than the guys manning the air defence radar.

For a nation to be that reliant on reservists, they have to keep their arms at home or they would be defenceless. As it stands they have a system in place that has kept them out of war for centuries.

I did armoured corps reserve officer training at Gagetown in 1982. At the beginning of the course they issued us with our rifles and we kept the in our barrack rooms. As I recall they weren't even locked up. Then part way through the course they took them off us and we had to sign the out from the base armoury if we needed them. I don't know what prompted it but it was a pain in the a#@ to have to deal with. I have seen the army now using fake weapons on parade because the security around real ones is so intense they just can't deal with it unless they absolutely have to.

john begley - we had the legendary "foehn" in Munich.

Thanks for being a Fudd Coach, after they take the handguns and semi's I'll be sure to protect your right to have a "long range sniper rifle"

Nice rifle, but very expensive. Its interesting to note that they use NATO calibre ammo. I think the ammo they used to use was unique to Swiss military weapons. (7.5mm or something like that)

Good to see that the Swiss are sensible. The "suicide prevention" BS is just an attempt for hoplophobes to attempt to get rid of guns. Gary Breitkreuz has posted stats where he looked at means of committing suicide after C68 was passed. As expected firearms suicides went down, but they were more than made up for with hangings - some 140% more hangings. Haven't heard any of the hoplophobes calling for registration and licensing of rope which, if they were truly interested in preventing suicides, they should logically be doing. Take away guns and people also jump off tall buildings, bridges and "lose control" of their vehicle on the highway and drive into oncoming traffic.

I'd like to have an SG 550 but I imagine feeding it would be rather expensive unless I got into reloading ammo. The Swiss must drive hoplophobes insane as here is a country with a machine gun in almost every home and the Swiss just refuse to go out and gun down strangers. After all that research Kellerman did to show how guns are dangerous and the Swiss guns refuse to cooperate. Israel is another country where civilians can carry fully automatic firearms in palestinian infested areas. Perhaps the Swiss watermelons can take their campaign to get local women to get rid of guns in Gaza -- I'm sure this would get a positive reception.

Minuteman is correct about the reason for the Swiss keeping their weapons at home. I say kudos to the Swiss for the silly left-wing control zealots. The EU can crow all it wants about its gun controls, but the funny thing is that the crime rate in Switzerland remains much, much lower. I admire the Swiss system of government which truly does give control to the people, through required referenda, instead of self-appointed elites telling the people what they must do and cannot do.

Sorry I meant to type kudos to the Swiss for rejecting the silly left-wing zealots.

The left in general does not want the population to have the capability to defend it self. That way it is much easier to impose collective political policies.

The Communist and Nazi governments successfully disarmed their populations and the various shades of social democrats are attempting the same thing in Europe and North America.

I do find it interesting that The Independent chooses to draw a connection between the outlawing of minarets and the failure of this referendum. It doesn't really fit into any of the other paragraphs, its inclusion is simply to point out who is against these things.
Here's how that is done, "In international hockey today, Canada defeated Russia 5 - 3, in the old Soviet Union millions of people were murdered in Gulags". ... Get the connection?

In the 4th last paragraph regarding gun suicide, a more honest journalista would have pointed out that Switzerland's suicide rate is less than other pretend countries that produce our chocolates such as Belgium and France. I doubt they have access to guns such as the SIG, preferring instead to defend their countries with our troops, as they have in the past wars.

They likely have to resort to killing themselves in the traditional french manner, such as holding one's breath until they get their way, just like the current crop of Bloc Quebecois.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

"Gun Control is like OSHA for criminals, it makes crime a safe occupation." Thomas Sowell

Here's 3 minutes of this, the key to the Swiss argument is in the last 10 seconds, the tools to your own freedom, are the guns...

ammunition is supplied by the gov't. ... cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g

Has anyone looked at what happened in both England and Australia after they banned most guns?

A bit OT but google the new XM-25,seems to be a game changer with it's limited deployment in Afghanistan.Hated by the taliban,dippers and liberal democrats,but loved by the guys at the pointy end of the stick.

mikeg81

mike...mike mike mike...my point is that you're a meathead..

but have a nice day..

shit!..i forgot to ask...ezzackly what is YOUR point mikey?

Nothing says, " no one comes through our country " like a 3 magazine arrangement on the country's main infantry weapon, does it?

The Swiss take defense seriously. La Place de Concorde Suisse by John McPhee, is a small book that provides some interesting insight on the Swiss view of defense.

@ coach: Don't forget to include women militia. It is an option.

Japan. High suicide rate. Low gun rate. As usual only certain facts are relevant.

All those wussy pinheads who live their lives afraid of firearms should go f&&k themselves. The only reason they're living in a society which tolerates their irrational neuroses is because of generations of stalwart men and women who knew how to use firearms, and had the will to use them against those who would deprive honest citizens of their freedoms and their property.

Nowadays, with the liberal hug-a-thug mentality, an armed society is a polite society. If the criminals don't know whether or not their prospective victims can fight back, they'll back off, cowards that they are. If they know that the legal system, abetted by the whining meemees of the left, has left honest citizens without defence, they will pounce. It's that bloody simple, and human. If you can't grasp that simple fact, you're too bloody stupid to be allowed to vote. And yes, I'm one of those neanderthals who believes that a) neanderthals have been maligned by ignorant lefties (hint: neanderthals were smarter than today's leftists) b) criminals who get injured or killed while committing a crime (whatever crime) got exactly what they deserved and c) when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away... chew on that one you neurotic gun-haters...

@ coach

By the same comparison imagine if everyone had semi-automatic shotguns. Just think of the chaos if I ran around with a shotgun and a bag full of shells on the Toronto Metro! Or if someone took a rifle and hid in his trunk and shot people while his accomplice drove him around a city like oh lets pick one at random, say, Washington D.C. for instance. But that would never happen.

I can only infer that you're stocking up guns for a similar rampage. You sower of death you.

The arrogance of the anti-gun left is hard to comprehend. They actually think that gun control will reduce suicide. Because people only kill themselves with guns. Either that or they're lying about their motivation.

Sucks that the government banned live ammo in homes in 2008.

Posted by: minuteman at February 13, 2011 8:52 PM

Fake weapons on parade? Been at this twenty years as of yesterday. In that 20 years and one day I have NEVER been issued a fake weapon for parades. Never even seen or heard of a fake weapon.

The fully functional C7 service rifle (less the bolt and carrier group) is used in every parade I have ever taken part in that weapons drill was a requirement.

I must have mispoken. I didn't mean to come off as anti-gun, quite the contrary. I own a few that would be considered evil by gun haters. I just happen to think that full-autos require some serious training, and aren't appropriate in the average household. The average person would end up with an empty mag, in about 1.5 seconds, and hit everything except the intended target. Sort of like a Jamaican with a Glock.

The 5.56 has a little too much penetration for home defense. You might shoot at a bad guy, and hit the neighbours baby, in his crib. A FMJ 223 can easily penetrate two exterior walls. That's why I prefer a shotgun, preferably with bird shot. Up close, it would still make a nasty mark, but wouldn't get past a couple of walls.

Yes, minuteman, I am also curious. Like AtlanticJim, I never saw anything like this during my service. Of course that is going back two decades.

Its OK coach, I didn't think so.

@ coach

In that case many apologies. Rampage away!

Bloody awesome. Good for the Swiss. Hopefully others in the West can rediscover their balls.

The SIG Sg .. whatever - oooooh, I like it!

I've mentioned this before but will restate here for all the leftards that missed Canadian history. If it hadn't been for the militia in Upper Canada in the War of 1812 we'd be living in the United States of (Continental) America. It sure as hell wasn't the British Army or Navy that kept the Canada's out of the Republic.

Same dumb twits that we have in Canada: "If you make guns less accessible, then there will be fewer suicides involving guns, it is as simple as that," said Elsa Kurz, spokeswoman for Switzerland's Stop Suicide campaign."
Study after study and simple observation shows that the suicide rate is unaffected by gun control laws: just a lower rate by gun fire, which proves??? But those same studies, one done for the WHO, show that crime increases???
And they are not allowed to have ammo at home so effectively those SIG's are wall hangers.
This does make sense to those who wish to have their mental illness coddled.

Langmann, good point about Japanese suicide rates which are some of the highest in the world. Curious how hoplophobes never bring up this phenomenon when they want to ban guns to prevent suicide. Usually when I mention it I get the excuse "it's a cultural phenomenon" but when I mention about guns being part of my culture suddenly the hoplophobe I'm talking to changes the subject.

coach, a full auto wouldn't be my first choice for home defense and you're right about the problem of over-penetration from rifle ammo. My solution to this potential problem was to have a mag loaded with Glazer safety slugs which fragment when they hit walls. They're pricey, only bought 10 and I assume they'll cycle through my Glock17. A shotgun is probably the best both because of safety of ones neighbors and also the psychologic effect a shotgun has on people. Of course, given how long it takes to get trigger locks off guns my most likely home defense weapon will be one of my 2' long razor sharp Mauser bayonets which are immediately ready for use.

What a sweet piece.

Anyone familiar with the place will readily admit that Switzerland is the most civilized country on the face of the earth.

The benefits of civilization include safety, abundance, and convenience.

Years ago, I was walking along the Lake of Zurich with a Swiss national. We passed a small public fountain where a heroin addict was cleaning his works. I commented that possession of drug paraphernalia was a crime in the USA. He responded that Swiss authorities did not interfere with public drug use because it was important that the citizens see what their children were doing. This was more likely to produce a positive result, he said, than driving drug users behind closed doors.

And, indeed it has.

When you talk about suicide in countries that have zero access to guns, like many of the Communist countries, you find that they lead the world in dead bodies. They didn't shoot themselves but they're very dead.

"mikeg81

mike...mike mike mike...my point is that you're a meathead..

but have a nice day..

shit!..i forgot to ask...ezzackly what is YOUR point mikey?"

Nice. Post an asinine comment, then if anyone calls you out on it, deflect by attacking them.

That SIG 550 looks impressive. While it may not be the weapon of choice for home defense, mobilizing a village of Swiss packing these things would produce a quick and powerful call to arms.(As was the intention all along).

Fake weapons on parade - A friend of mine is a captain in 2 Int Company in Toronto. He was Guard Commander at a Remembrance day parade last year. He invited me to the parade. I have handled these things myself. You wouldn't know from a distance that they aren't real. I don't know how common this is, but I have held one in my hand.

@ Coach:

A full automatic would be moronic for home defence, I agree. Unless you happen to live in the wide country separated from your neighbours, and you are facing a motorcycle gang of zombies. I'd like to see most people use it accurately on full auto anyway....

As you say a short barrel shotgun loaded with buck or a low velocity slug is appropriate.

@ loki - my favorite approach to the lefty hoplophobes is to show them the National Academy of Sciences report on gun control demonstrating no evidence it helps. Big review of all evidence.

Also I would purchase some more hollowpoint and test run at least 50 through it on the range if you are going to use your glock for defence against zombies and bears on an approved gun range. My glock has cycled just about anything, but you always want to ensure that it works because zombies can move pretty quick. However I do agree with you about that bullet being appropriate for use on an approved range where buildings are erected as it will definitely not puncture the walls... if you want to get more try finding it on CanadianGunNutz.

On the SG 550... are those two magazines, side by side?

Can we debate women's suffrage now?

"I've mentioned this before but will restate here for all the leftards that missed Canadian history. If it hadn't been for the militia in Upper Canada in the War of 1812 we'd be living in the United States of (Continental) America. It sure as hell wasn't the British Army or Navy that kept the Canada's out of the Republic."

More silly mythology. The UPPER Canadian militia didn't win a single battle on their own. In many cases, particularly in the Moraviantown campaign in 1813 they deserted entirely. The LOWER Canadian militia did indeed win a battle on their own at Chateauguay, but that's not the bunch to which you referred, did you?

The myth of Upper Canada militia has been refuted by just about every military analyst and historian over the past 100 years. Like it or not, the most effective military forces during the first two years were the British military and Tecumseh's alliance.

In a civilian, conscript army it only makes sense for each soldier to be in charge of
storing and maintaining his or her own weapon. Home storage without ammo is a good compromise on the issues of concern.

* Central storage places of personal weapons provide a devastating target for an enemy.

* In the event of an emergency call-up, having each soldier arrive with a battle-ready weapon cuts down response time enormously, more so if each soldier is to be assigned their personal weapon. (Rifles become personal items; it takes time to get used to a different one, somewhat army boots.)

* If soldiers are simply handed a random weapon each time they see service, the motivation to care for it properly is removed, unless perhaps the army itself maintains the weapons whilst in storage; this would of course raise costs enormously.

langmann

Don't dis fullauto for home defence.

Full auto was intended to be an area suppression weapon.

It has it's place.

As with anything? Read instructions before using.

I'm with Mark, what's up with women voters? It's exeptionally telling that these groups are targeting women voters specifically for this issue. It's like they know they won't be able to make a rational decision about this matter.

To answer my own question (from text that I missed the first time at the link Mark provides):

The rifle has special studs and slots in the magazine so that two or three magazines can be clipped together side by side. This allows the changing of the magazine by simply pulling the assembly out, shifting it sideways, and pushing in the new magazine.

Very cool. Looking at the photo again, it seems that there are 3 clips on the unit shown.

Regarding trigger locks, if the weapon is under your supervision, say, beside your bed, a trigger lock is not required. Only when it's left unattended does it need to be locked up.

As far as a "home defense" weapon, I don't actually practise what I preach. I prefer a snub-nosed 38 special (yeah, I'm 12-6). I know every angle in my house to fire safely away from my neighbours, and I practise rigorously.

I know exactly how much penetration my ammo has, from years of experimenting. For example, a 158 grain soft nose bullet will not go all the way through a road sign, at 20 yards. Four layers of drywall will stop the same bullet.

Through years of practise, I can put 6 slugs into a 6" circle, at 7 yards, in 5 seconds. Not every Canadian is a wannabe.

So, based on this knowledge, do you think I'm a good neighbour, or a bad one?

@ coach:

I wish you were my neighbour.

"The SG 550 is an improved version of the SG 540 developed in competition to meet Swish Army requirements in 1984."

?

'Swish' Army ?

Switzerland is defended by a bunch of faggots?

oh, by the way, I hear in the vaunted Switzerland the reason for such high stds of living is that for instance it is not possible to do a lot of DYI; you cannot find bldg materials to 'DYI' some stuff unless you have a TRADE license. how's THAT for socialism?

Isn't swish something people drink at gravel pit parties?

Irony abounds in this thread. The weapons they are referring to are of course military weapons. The ammunition must remain sealed, so these weapons have a negligible effect, at best, on rates of home invasion or rape. The issue is actually suicide rates.

Many here applaud the Swiss approach to gun ownership, but are they ready to embrace the compulsory military service that goes with it ? No nonsense militia like some states in the USA, they have to serve, 17 weeks basic training and then 300 days after.

Of course part of the Swiss formula also includes tremendous regulation by the state and state participation in the economy. Lots ( lots !) of civil servants efficiently enforcing regulations and considerably more social control than in Canada or the USA. If you are ready to embrace all that as well, then admire Switzerland approach to gun ownership.

Irony abounds in this thread. The weapons they are referring to are of course military weapons. The ammunition must remain sealed, so these weapons have a negligible effect, at best, on rates of home invasion or rape. The issue is actually suicide rates.

Many here applaud the Swiss approach to gun ownership, but are they ready to embrace the compulsory military service that goes with it ? No nonsense militia like some states in the USA, they have to serve, 17 weeks basic training and then 300 days after.

Of course part of the Swiss formula also includes tremendous regulation by the state and state participation in the economy. Lots ( lots !) of civil servants efficiently enforcing regulations and considerably more social control than in Canada or the USA. If you are ready to embrace all that as well, then admire Switzerland approach to gun ownership.

The Swiss have their weapons for national defense. But there is another example of home ownership = gun ownership that has worked.
Kennesaw, GA passed a law in the mid-80's that required a homeowner to have a working firearm in the house. The law does allow one to file for a waiver.
Since that law was passed, there has been exactly one incident in Kennesaw which resulted in a gun death. Last year a disgruntled ex-employee went into a Penske Truck Rental and killed some people.
Crime in Kennesaw - dropped by 70% in the first two years after it was enacted, and Kennesaw remains one of the safest places to live in Georgia.

Not to quibble, but buck shot (and heavy slow pistol bullets) have better penetration though dry wall than .223 / 5.56.

(Effectively those fast, small, light bullets shatter and tumble right away and have crappy penetration. .308/7.62mm is different.)

Don't believe me, someone built walls and TRIED it. Go to the source:

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/02/link-dump.html

coach said: "Okay, I own a lot of guns, but even I would hesitate to keep a gun like that one lying around."

I used to have an FN FAL and a Valmet M-76 "lying around" at my place in AZ. They never had parties or anything when I was out. Didn't even poop on the carpet.

Full auto for home defense? Massive overkill. Until the day when its not. Always remembering, shooter is responsible for where every single round goes. Glazer and Magsafe frangibles, they are dandy for keeping things inside the house.

Sometimes people get all focused on the "rights" part and forget about the "responsibility" part.

My choice for home defense here in Canaduh? Maglight flashlight. Because the freak show government of this clown circus country we live in is just SO much more dangerous than some random drug addict, I'm happy to take my chances duking it out with the punks.

300 deaths a year? And self inflicted, you say?

Oh, well then, we'd better panic, right?

Morons.

Trouble with historians is that they have their own agenda and axe to grind whether it is to achieve tenure or to elicit grants from the government, they can and do tend to skew history and woe betide the student that queries them. Point in fact google Queenston Heights, Crysler's Farm, and the term "militia".

coach: "good neighbor".

High rise apartments with open balconies would seem to be more tempting than a $3000 assault rifle, if I were looking to off myself. My kids wouldn't have trouble collecting insurance, and it could be reported as a tragic accident.

gray @12:09 - "Many here applaud the Swiss approach to gun ownership, but are they ready to embrace the compulsory military service that goes with it ? No nonsense militia like some states in the USA, they have to serve, 17 weeks basic training and then 300 days after."

I think it's a splendid idea. I'm usually about three drinks away from advocating conscription.

"Of course part of the Swiss formula also includes tremendous regulation by the state and state participation in the economy."

Yeah, and part of the "Swiss formula" involves lederhosen and not being ghastly to the Nazis. So what? We're not talking about that.

I wish we'd had conscription when I was a snot nosed 18 year old. We should have it now.

Jesus Christ on a bicycle. THAT, my friends, is a gun.

@ Fred2: It's not penetrating the walls of the home I am worried about, its a lot of lead hitting the zombie's chest from 1 shot that I like. Having seen these types of individual manage to walk around after being shot once or twice, I like the idea of several pellots delivered in one go, because I figure its all the time I will have. Zombies move fast.

One can vary the speed of the load you are using to hopefully keep it from bouncing down the street and killing baby seals.

I just think the idea of a fully automatic for home defence would be a little overkill and probably dangerous to baby seals.

The argument for best home defence goes on and on. Pick whatever you are comfortable with and have a lot of practice with and hope you never have to face a zombie invasion.

As a side note, the civillian version of that rifle is available in Canada, non-restricted too(although still neutered to 5 round magazines).

Look up SIG Black Special, and drool away. One is on my must-have list.

My mistake, I meant Swiss Arms Black Special.

Coach>
“...I own a lot of guns, but even I would hesitate to keep a gun like that one lying around”.

“...Can you imagine the mayhem, if a multi-cultural society like ours suddenly had a Sig SG in every home?”

It’s unfortunate that gun owners divide themselves between who should own what based on their particular tastes.

When you side with the “disarmament people” because you don’t particularly like someone else’s choice in a specific small arm, you have no reason to bellyache when they eventually come for yours.

Society’s problem is not the gun as in your second statement – It’s the multi-cultural part of the equation that leads to problems, guns or no guns, “scary” looking ones notwithstanding.

Coach>

“I must have mispoken. I didn't mean to come off as anti-gun, quite the contrary...”

I should have read further down myself, from previous comment..........

My home bedside defensive arm is .45ACP with 200gr HP. If I can make it to a 12ga defender 00 buck from there all the better, the .45 is meant to stopgap and clear the way if needed.

Neighbours are not in any significant risk of over penetration regardless.

Just looked up the specs for the SG 550 and have to get one of those someday when I've got the cash. The Canadian version would be useless with a 5 round mag but in the US one could legally have 3 30 round mags attached. I really like the feature of being able to easily change mags without having to fumble for a new mag and risking dropping it when doing the process with cold hands. Would prefer it in a larger caliber like 7.62x39 but 90 rounds of .223 would seriously annoy a grizzly.

For rural home defense, assuming one had the full-auto version, 3 shot bursts would be very controllable.

"If you make guns less accessible, then there will be fewer suicides involving guns, it is as simple as that," said Elsa Kurz, spokeswoman for Switzerland's Stop Suicide campaign.

Hey Elsa, would it make you feel any better if those people had jumped out of windows?

Don't get distracted people.

Suicide prevention is not the gun-grabber agenda. It's a merely a STRAW MAN and no more.

BTW...Japan has virually NO privately owned firearms but a high suicide/homocide rate. Despite the Japanese criminals frequent use of edged weapons they still kill a whack of clients with "non-existant guns."

Solzhenitsyn has written extensively about how Stalin's reign of terror could have been easily blunted by simple physical resistance to the "knock on the door".

One of my pet peeves is the use of the word "guns" to refer to personal small arms.

"GUNS HAVE WHEELS!"

"Point in fact google Queenston Heights, Crysler's Farm, and the term "militia"."

Who won Queenston Heights? The British 41st Infantry under General Isaac Brock and Colonel MacDonnell. Who won Crysler's Farm? The British 49th and 89th Infantry under British Colonel Morrison. In both cases, the militia were bystanders (Crysler's Farm) or arrived after the heavy fighting was over (Queenston).

G'bye.

cgh, who made the Brit forces run all over hell chasing them, so that it became too -expensive- for the Brits to keep pretending they still ran the country?

The militia.

Kind of like what the frickin' Taliban are doing to -us- in Assghanistan, the one major difference being the Taliban are (reportedly) not really part of the Afghan people.

Never underestimate a cranky population equipped with small arms a a will to use 'em. Even Hitler and Napoleon didn't try the Swiss on.

loki, for rural home defense may I suggest the above mentioned Maglight, it would be cheaper and better to let thugs burn your house and barn down than shoot one, as recent posts here have made abundantly clear.

If the issue is bears, you'll be much further ahead with a nice Marlin lever action in .338 Express or a 45-70, to be more cowboy. BOOM thud, bear falls down. Might be a bit energetic for drywall, but you do not want Mr. Bear shrugging off your first round. Bears are known for ignoring .223 and sometimes .308 .

Phantom, we were talking about 1812. All too much of the Upper Canadian militia simply either didn't turn up to fight or turned and ran if British regulars weren't present. The behaviour of the York militia in 1813 was particularly poor. They didn't even really try. Its behaviour at Chippewa in 1814 was also not very good. Some initial enthusiasm, unlike York, but they still turned and ran. The British regulars had to bail out the situation in the bloodbath at Lundy's Lane.

Mind you, the US militia didn't do any better either. There were some decent UC units, but mostly they were in the eastern townships. It all depended where. Eastern Ontario had a high proportion of UEL. Southwestern Ontario had a lot of 1st generation American immigrants who had little interest in fighting.

The situation didn't change much in the years ahead either. The fighting against the Fenian invasions was incompetent and lame to say the least, and there it was dealing with nothing more than bowery bums and what were little better than drunken mobs.

The first time the Canadian militia really came into its own was in the Saskatchewan campaign in the 1880s. Simply getting a large force to Saskatchewan in those days, given the abysmal transport available and the amateurish nature of the Canadian military, was a miracle thanks to General Middleton.

As for the US, that's another piece of mythology, Phantom. The real winner of the American Revolution was the Continental Army. The British only ever lost two battles to militia, and they were both very early on, Lexington and Breed's Hill. But they lost the one huge crucial battle to the US regular army at Saratoga, and that ended any chance of Britain ever winning the war. Saratoga is rightly described as one of the world's great decisive battles, and no militia force could have won it. The British lost the American Revolution for three reasons: 1. a continental army good enough that the British could not defeat in open battle; 2. the French naval victory in Chesapeake Bay; 3. the American revolution had become a global war of Britain against most of the rest of Europe. By that time, the 13 Colonies had become almost irrelevant to the global war going on.

"Even Hitler and Napoleon didn't try the Swiss on."

It's extremely hard to invade up a mountain. Probably the Bosch could have had Geneva; I guess they never got around to it.

It's also extremely hard to invade Russia, as Hitler and Napolean both found out. "In quest for world domination, Russia invade you!"

Anyway....

Irony abounds in this thread. The weapons they are referring to are of course military weapons. The ammunition must remain sealed, so these weapons have a negligible effect, at best, on rates of home invasion or rape. The issue is actually suicide rates.

You can't have it both ways. How does the fact that the ammunition is sealed effect only negligibly home invasion rates but not suicide rates? Are you suggesting someone would open the ammo package for suicide but not for a home invader? That does not compute.
Dont invoke irony least ye suffer an ironic fate.

"Even Hitler and Napoleon didn't try the Swiss on."

Actually, Switzerland was effectively part of the French First Empire. French armies marched through Switzerland to Italy in 1800. Swiss troops fought in Spain throughout 1808-1813.