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December 23, 2010

SDA Firearm Safety Tip For December

One in the chest, then one in the ceiling.

h/t Doug

Posted by Kate at December 23, 2010 8:31 PM
Comments

Yeah, but can you keep ammo nearby under the current regs? Me, I go for the small safe with a handgun and charged magazine lying beside it. It meets the letter of the law in Canada and gives me access if I need it. The only regret is I wish I splurged on the fingerprint scanner model. This is the one I want: http://www.buyasafe.com/Wall-Safes-p/sl-20700.htm

Posted by: the rat at December 23, 2010 8:50 PM

@rat --
Who cares about "the letter of the law"? From my understanding, the moment you point a firearm at an intruder -- even unloaded -- it all goes out the window. You're done.

A cop advised a friend of mine, if you end up shooting an intruder, make sure you finish him off. Nice, eh?

Posted by: rg at December 23, 2010 8:56 PM

I prefer my pistolpal... I can keypad it open in the dark no problem; no keys; no fuss; no muss :)

http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/images/safe_images/HandgunSafeBoxClosed.jpg

Posted by: Cjunk at December 23, 2010 9:05 PM

The police are only a call away...so keep your shotgun between your bed and the telephone.

Posted by: Jamie MacMaster at December 23, 2010 9:08 PM

That devise looks like it might be a viable option, but only if you live in a country that will allow to have a shotgun.

Posted by: Abe Froman at December 23, 2010 9:11 PM

...and twice in the head, if they're undead.

Posted by: SDH at December 23, 2010 9:13 PM

"The police are only a call away..."

What if it's the police you're worried about?

Posted by: $ FKA gord at December 23, 2010 9:26 PM

Remember this phrase:

"I was cleaning my guns and counting my ammo when all of a sudden...."

Posted by: allan at December 23, 2010 9:36 PM

when they kick down your front door , how'ere gunna come. with your hands on your head or on the trigger of your gun?

Posted by: cal2 at December 23, 2010 9:43 PM

That's not a safe for a real gun.
.
This is a real gun:
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAx0EWhWcEg&feature=fvw

Posted by: Sgt Lejaune at December 23, 2010 9:47 PM

Sgt Lejaune - If I you'll forgive me, what I think you mean to say is: "nah, mate. That's not a recoil. This is a recoil."

Or perhaps: The dingo ate your shotgun!"

Posted by: Black Mamba at December 23, 2010 10:09 PM

allan:

It has been a while since I last laughed out loud from reading something.

Thank-you.

Posted by: bryceman at December 23, 2010 10:43 PM

Why ruining a perfectly good ceiling and roof?

Posted by: Aaron at December 23, 2010 10:46 PM

what are the requirements for a flame thrower:-)))

Posted by: GYM at December 23, 2010 11:06 PM

Think, Aaron... think.

Posted by: Kate at December 23, 2010 11:06 PM

Aaron, you're on for jury duty if any brainless moran gets carried out of my house.

Posted by: WalterF at December 23, 2010 11:28 PM

What is the ideal choke tube to use for intruder?

Posted by: ∞² at December 23, 2010 11:32 PM

Arguing with a gun-grabber is futile....they live in a fantasy world threatened by CO2.....
I just agree with them.....and they go away....
If they don't...I just say...yeah I live in an old farm house....no need to own a gun.....real safe...Hell I haven't had an armed home invasion for..let's see about 5 years........
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Posted by: sasquatch at December 23, 2010 11:42 PM

sasquatch - tonight - me: "But why is it so awful that Sarah Palin hunts? It's meat! You're eating meat right now! When did hunting become bad?"

smug female dinner guest - "When they invented grocery stores."

Posted by: Black Mamba at December 24, 2010 12:25 AM

My point being that if said dinner guest were to wander into a farmhouse, and someone should happen to be counting his ammo at the time, it would be unfortunate.

Posted by: Black Mamba at December 24, 2010 12:28 AM

Like Ralphie said "Shoot, Shovel, Shut Up".

Posted by: JohnPeg at December 24, 2010 12:39 AM

Like Ralphie Klein said "Shoot, Shovel, Shut Up".

Posted by: JohnPeg at December 24, 2010 12:40 AM

This works better:

http://www.the-backup.com/

Posted by: Dan at December 24, 2010 1:04 AM

In answer to the question of which choke tube to use, Cylinder Bore. You really don't need to reach out. My thoughts are that long range trap loads are perfect (7 1/2 shot). Enormously destructive at close range and have less chance of over penetration and killing somebody that does not need killing. SSG and Slugs penetrate excessively for in-house use.

Posted by: Pat at December 24, 2010 1:18 AM

Posted by: ∞²>

"What is the ideal choke tube to use for intruder?"


Cylinder.

Posted by: Knight 99 at December 24, 2010 2:50 AM

To be more specific - IMO (Shotgun)

- Cylinder Bore
- 18.5" - 20" barrel length
- 8+ round magazine
- Semi Auto
- Tactical mounted light
- #4 buck – 00 buck
- Practice

Posted by: Knight 99 at December 24, 2010 2:57 AM

Tactically outfitted guns are generally the most efficient defensive weapons. The big drawback is that it looks bad in front of a Liberalized jury, via determined prosecutor using Hollywood logic. Everyone would rather you try to defend your family from liberalized street animals with grandpaws old wooden side by side shotgun. It makes them feel warm and safer inside for some unknown reason.

The point is that many, if not an increasing trend, of home invasions are by multiple assailants. They can be drugged out with Liberal approved rights to narcotics and almost for certain are carrying a couple of the millions of unrestricted and prohibited weapons that they personally never cared to register.

That puts you at a big disadvantage with grandpaws old shotgun. You are left with a choice of either facing down the product of decades of liberal engineering or facing the Hollywood jury knowing your family is out of immediate danger.

I know what my choice would be.


Posted by: Knight 99 at December 24, 2010 3:21 AM

Knight 99

I think the 3rd option would be to destroy the evidence and not call the cops >;)

Posted by: M at December 24, 2010 3:41 AM

I'll bet my worst Christmas present that Aaron supports the gun registry.

Posted by: wallyj at December 24, 2010 7:35 AM

M
[......Knight 99

I think the 3rd option would be to destroy the evidence and not call the cops >;)....]

I'm not counseling anyone to commit an indictable offence(s).
Hypothetically and academically.........
The third option has a signifigant chance of success because the brigands, in principle, didn't tell anyone where they were going etc. and have an enemies list that looks like a telephone book.

Posted by: sasquatch at December 24, 2010 9:24 AM

I'm STILL looking for 00 buck for my 20 gauge. Anybody?

Posted by: Kathy Shaidle at December 24, 2010 9:26 AM

Nope, not trap loads. Bird shot may chew up flesh but it is proven to have poor penetration. At LEAST BB. I agree that large buckshot or slugs, I'd rather not shoot in the home.

Posted by: grok at December 24, 2010 9:29 AM

Kathie Shaidle 9:26
00 buck is .33" dia and a 20gauge has .615" dia bore. This does not allow the pellets to stack properly in the load cup. That results in inconsistent pattern and accuracy . Get a 12gauge 870

Posted by: Rob C at December 24, 2010 10:02 AM

First- Kathy 00buck for a 20 guage, have to load it yourself. Don't use the chinese gun powder the buck won't make it out of the barrel.
Good load for the pump. #1 Rock salt #2 7 shot #3-7 00 Buck. Just in case you want to give them a chance to run.

Posted by: m at December 24, 2010 10:06 AM

Kathy: Sounds like it's time to get into hand loading. It's a much more affordable way to build your personal arsenal than buying factory loads. Remember, when it comes to ammo, there is no such thing as being 'overstocked'.

Posted by: Mark at December 24, 2010 10:07 AM

The name of my blog isn't a joke. I really am only 5' tall, and female. I couldn't handle a 12. I have an 870 but it is the Children's Super Compact Micro something something model, with the shortest l of p available as it is.

Thanks guys!

Meanwhile, what is the best alternative to 00 that is available for a 20 gauge and is suited for, er, big game in close quarters?

Posted by: Kathy Shaidle at December 24, 2010 10:39 AM

http://www.combattactical.com/federal-cartridge-gauge-premium-buckshot-loads-federal-gauge-dram-pellets-buck-call-availability-p-62207.html

Try that one Kathy

Posted by: mitchel44 at December 24, 2010 11:40 AM

A word of advice: having treated people shot by a variety of shot, I wouldn't recommend birdshot if you are say cleaning your firearm and suddenly "have to defend your life against something determined that stands on two legs".

Just saying.

Posted by: langmann at December 24, 2010 11:58 AM

@ Kathy: you can also buy low velocity slugs for your 20. They aren't likely to go bouncing down the street if they even go through your exterior walls, but have the necessary effectiveness...

Next time I go shopping I'll pick you up some things and send them to you.

Posted by: langmann at December 24, 2010 12:02 PM

Langmann:

Because it doesn't kill them, or because it will...?

:-)

Posted by: Kathy Shaidle at December 24, 2010 12:03 PM

My apologies for the longer post, but I need the space to make my hopefully helpful point.

Amazingly enough, I've served on jury duty twice, both being murder trials. Without any help from a Human Rights Commissioner, we Waspy White Canadians were able to weigh the evidence and find the black defendant not guilty and convict the white underage 'kid'.

The first guy claimed self defence. I'm not breaking any rules by discussing that while there was plenty of evidence presented to assume he wasn't the most upstanding of people, it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooting wasn't self-defence (sorry for all the double negatives, but even though I'm a mouth-breathing right-winger, I still managed to digest and apply all the big thinky legal stuff).

Anyway, both murders involved money, drugs, and robbery, meaning many of the witnesses presented weren't the most savoury of characters. Since part a juror's duty is to assess the believability of witness testimony based upon all the evidence presented, one is more likely to accept testimony that makes sense - based upon the facts at hand - from Johnny Citizen over Jimmy Drug Dealer (and not that it's especially relevant, but I happen to largely agree with the small (l) liberalization of drug laws, for both libertarianish reasons and 'cut down on societal violence' reasons. In my life, I've known model citizens who sell a little pot, and I've known violent dickheads who would be violent dickheads whether they dealt drugs or not.)

My awkwardly made point being, I would accept any logical testimony from any witness (drug-dealer or not), if it fits with the facts at hand, even if I don't believe ALL of their testimony

So from a juror's perspective, if I heard (per Allan above) "I was cleaning my guns and counting my ammo when all of a sudden....", from a law-abiding father of four who shot an intruder (hopefully centre-mass!), I'm most likely to go right ahead and accept that testimony. Based upon my recollection of the judge's jury charge, the self-defence claim in this hypothethical trial would be easily accepted, and as a juror I'm certainly not going to work too hard to convict Johnny Castle Defender of some asinine nanny-state gun storage charge.

Of course I'm not advocating perjury, nor would I shirk my duty as a juror and wilfully ignore a preponderance of evidence that 'proved beyond a reasonable doubt' a charge for breaking a law that I as Matthew Voter might not believe should be a law...but to repeat myself, I'm not going to work too hard to convict someone for it.

If that makes sense.

I probably could have shortened this post by simply repeating the maxim that Sasquatch did:

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

Posted by: Matt Hillier at December 24, 2010 12:10 PM

Where does the shovel go?

Posted by: Edward Teach at December 24, 2010 12:41 PM

Thanks, everybody!

Here's a good little story:

http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2010/12/i-have-something-to-tell-you.html

Posted by: Kathy Shaidle at December 24, 2010 1:18 PM

"Where does the shovel go?" Posted by: Edward Teach


Uh oh... now that I think of it, yesterday my GF asked me to pick a shovel up while I was shopping...

Posted by: Mark R at December 24, 2010 2:08 PM

Shovels?

That Stuckinthe Mud contest suggests easier ways to deal with the after-effects of univited guests.

Posted by: The LS from SK at December 24, 2010 2:22 PM

Good idea to plan ahead.

Scanner yesterday said five "Alberta Warriors" were in town yesterday.....whoever the phuk they are.

Posted by: eastern paul at December 24, 2010 2:43 PM

And a nice accesory and Xmas gift for you or your loved one is a good sight:

http://blueline.ca/articles/aimpoint_eotech/

h/t Blueline

Posted by: The LS from SK at December 24, 2010 3:19 PM

@ Matt Hillier:

"nor would I shirk my duty as a juror and wilfully ignore a preponderance of evidence that 'proved beyond a reasonable doubt' a charge for breaking a law that I as Matthew Voter might not believe should be a law"

Actually, you are well within your rights as a juror to refuse to convict someone of a criminal act that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but you believe should not be a crime. It's called juror nullification. The trick is that the judge is not allowed to present it as an option, nor is the defence allowed to suggest it.

Posted by: Bull at December 24, 2010 4:00 PM

@ Bull:

Heh...interesting. That's something I kinda/sorta thought was the case but since it was never relevant to the trials I didn't bother to edify myself.

Appreciate the information...something to read up on during the slower parts of this weekend.

Posted by: Matt Hillier at December 24, 2010 5:19 PM

Kathy, if all you need is a few 20ga rounds for self defense, why not casting your own buckshot?
Casting buckshot is very easy, you need Lee melting pot, custom buckshot mold that you can get from the folks on Cast Boolits forum, and Lee Load-All-2 press for equipment.

Kate: One for the ceiling means you were not in immediate danger that you had time to warn them.

Posted by: Aaron at December 24, 2010 7:34 PM

@ Kathy Shaidle

Winchester Model 12 in 12 guage. and a non-restrcted length barrel of 18".

Slam fire. Squeeze trigger, hold trigger, rack slide until magazine is empty or threat ceases to be a threat.

4,00,000,000,slug is a pretty good recipe. You could get someone who reloads shells to whip you up a batch that has reduced recoil.

Posted by: Curious at December 24, 2010 8:21 PM

Kathy Shaidle: Properly fitted 12 gauge, RECOIL PAD, lots of practice. Plenty of women your size out there shooting 12 gauge skeet all day long. What they have that you don't have is a gun stock -fitted- to them by a guy who knows what he's doing. Costs a bit, but worth it.

You can get a muzzle brake machined into your barrel too, that helps take some sting out of it. Freakin' loud though... particularly when fired inside a house. Owie.

Have you considered a carbine rifle like a Winchester 94 in a pistol caliber, maybe .45 Colt? With a nice frangible bullet like a MagSafe you get less penetration of drywall/plaster/wood than a .20 gauge slug and plenty of destruction on Mr. Badguy. Red Ryder cowboy looking lever gun sells better in court too. Doesn't look all "assault weapon".

As to the question from ∞² about what choke to use for intruder. The shot doesn't even leave the cup for the first ten feet, so any pattern when hunting intruder will closely resemble slugs. I mean, is your living room 50 feet wide?

As for slugs, although I have seen rifled chokes, I can't imagine one improving my aim at point-blank range.

For the "now THIS is a gun!" crowd, may I present the US Navy's new toy railgun: 33 megajoules of muzzle energy. One megajoule is roughly a Volkswagen traveling 100 miles per hour, except the projectile here is a 20 lb steel dart. Ba-boom-, baby.

http://phantomsoapbox.blogspot.com/2010/12/dont-stand-in-front-of-it.html

Its a little big to fit inside my truck, but I could tow it...

Posted by: The Phantom at December 24, 2010 11:00 PM

Agree with you Phantom. However people like what they like, and they should be comfortable with what they like - thus more likely to use it successfully. Plus she has it now.

No reason Kathy shouldn't be able to use her 20 g for self defence against "large animals". Lots of people swear by them for that purpose...

Posted by: langmann at December 25, 2010 1:01 AM

Here in the states online #3 Buckshot at Cabelas, etc.

Posted by: peakbagger at December 25, 2010 8:27 AM

Kathy for what it is worth...heed the Phantom.
At 50' and under the terminal effect of 7 is not much different than a slug---except the slug is usually ahead of a more vigourous powder charge.
An associate who grew up in what is now Zimbabwe, as a 14 year old had an encounter with a leopard, armed with a "20 bore" with bird shot.
He said nailed the kitty in mid-spring in the melon and it fell dead at his feet.
That said that feline was likely a more robust target than the "thin-skinned game under 200 lbs" you have anticipated.

Matt Hillier

You failed to discuss the "doctrine of necessary force". What is reasonable force for a senior or "five feet of fury" may not be reasonable for an able bodied male. The presence of children and darkness of night are other factors to be considered.

If you reside in a rural area of Ontario, it is not unreasonable and legal to have an unloaded, unsecured firearm and unsecured ammo at hand...due to the now presence of "dangerous wildlife". The plethera of bear sightings and even a "cougar incident" here locally makes such conduct legal, pursuant to C68.

Re the cougar incident----the critter was apparently "chipped" which raises the reasonable question...what the ***** was it doing here?
Have these bears also been deliberately relocated?
Howcome a wolverine was sighted within sight of the raging metropolis of Woodstock, Bantario?

If the LIBRANO government drafted legistlation allowing for dangerous wildlife.... it is reasonable to interpret that as an indication that an unsecured firearm is the solution to dangerous situations.

Matt Hillier
You overlooked or are unaware that a Judge may set aside a jury verdict. IOW you may win the jury but get shafted by an "activist" judge.

Posted by: sasquatch at December 25, 2010 11:11 AM

Kathy Shaidle>

There are allot of choices to reduce your felt recoil, as Phantom say’s a proper fit and good recoil pad is the best start.

I use a Blackhawk Knoxx stock for my personal entertainment shotgun. It’s adjustable and has built in recoil buffer which advertises up to 85% felt recoil. Check it out

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SpecOps-Adjustable-Shotgun-Stock,1158,1447.htm

Of course this isn’t your typical duck blind shotgun stock but that’s why we own more than one gun.

Also going to Semi Auto helps reduce felt recoil slightly.

Other options are “reduced loads” sold by most manufactures now originally designed for law enforcement. You don’t need a full power “magnum” load in a shotgun for defensive proposes.

I would look for #4 Buck instead of OO buck for your 20 gauge (Not to be confused with #4 shot). The #4 buck has been used with great success as a home defense round and leopard hunting in Africa.

Here is a radio podcast that will tell you all you need to know about shotguns in laymen’s terms………….A great listen and a great overall self reliance site.


http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/all-about-shotguns


Posted by: Knight 99 at December 25, 2010 6:30 PM

Kathy,

Like a poster above, I recommend 0000 buck or BB shot. Sellier and Belot makes a nice 0000 round. I imagine they have it available in 20 gauge. If you can't find 0000, use the largest birdshot you can find in your area and be comfortable knowing that it will be acceptable until you find something with more mass. Few if any bad guys are going to want to do more than hope they can keep breathing if you pop them with goose loads. FWIW, I think you picked a great home shotgun. They are very reliable and well made. Whatever happened with your 9mm you wrote about a year or so ago?

Posted by: An American Fan at December 26, 2010 7:30 PM

"Doctriine of necessary force" - right so, johnny intruder is somehow less dangerous to Fred2 ( 6'7", 260 lbs) that to KathyShaidle ( 4'11" - kinda light).

I see the argument - in a perfect world where all knowledge is available ,and none of us were surprised, or it's not 3:30AM.

Inthe real world, it is 3:30AM, quiet respectful law abiding Fred2 or Kathy have woken up from deep sleep, in a dark and cold house to a ( must be presumed to be armed and up to no good) shadowy intruder who isn't fleeing, are frightened, want to protect their lives, and lives of their family, are under the influence of *massive* adrenaline surge from a "fight or flight" .

Some now "big bad" Fred2 is at less risk than Kathy and should less force? (I'm supposed to divine that risk how?) F- that. It's logical and intelligent and just plain NORMAL, to channel your inner Hulk and go completely apeshit nuts on said intruder until the threat is obviously neutralized or leaves.

Then you can call the police, the paramedics and the pizza guy in that order. So you can eat pizza with the paramedics until police arrive.


Posted by: Fred2 at December 27, 2010 10:44 AM
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