Well thank goodness for the $Billions invested in wind energy!

That should solve the problem, shouldn't it?

I thought you'd love that one Kate. Nothing like having a government employee decide how warm your house is going to be.

The CNN article also missed the tiny detail that this Smart Grid system they envision would be -extremely- vulnerable to hacker attack, and even if there were no hackers in the world it would still be an accident looking for a place to happen.

Feedback loops and "ringing" happen even in simple systems, imagine the entire North American electric grid controlled to the level of your freakin' toaster, plus windmills and solar adding random voltage input.

Errors will all be HMB: Halt, Melt, Burst into flames.

But hey, on the plus side Liberals will have a really great way to punish their enemies. Bzzzt! Oh so sorry, line spike killed your TV. Again.

Another reason why Columbia Falls Aluminum Company went under: The local ratepayer-funded electricity subsidies (which ideologically you hate) that CFAC relied on since the 1950s finally ran out, and they couldn't afford to buy electricity on the open market (which ideologically you love).

Yet another reason: Failure to adapt to the globalized marketplace: "It's far from raw materials, far from markets, far from ports, aged, with a payroll easily undermined by newer Chinese smelters."

Source: missoulian.com/news/local/article_80e88722-c6a0-11de-a2bf-001cc4c002e0.html

Hopefully after the next major elections here and the USA we can have a huge pushback against this nonsense. Start digging coal again, start drilling for oil again, give the oils sands 100% support. Bring the price of energy back down to normal.

We have this now in Ontario - or will by next year when they actually start using the smart meters that have been installed. My local utility is offering free programmable thermostats - you just have to agree to let them to control your thermostat externally during peak useage

Davenport, one question. Is it an open market when CFAC can't build their own generator using the fuel of their choice? Because I'm sure they looked at running a nice, cheap, NatGas gas turbine or maybe even a forbidden-but-even-cheaper coal fired unit. Oh, and nobody else is allowed to build one either.

BTW, their competition is -China-. With dollar an hour labor and zero pollution regulation. And coal fired electricity generation. Using that fabulous Chinese brown coal, the really disgusting kind with lots of sulfur in it.

You remember China, the Communist country where drinking water is rationed because the rivers are all toxic as Hell?

Oh, and their other competition is Canada, where the government built a hydro dam in the middle of nowhere and sold cut-rate power to Alcan who shipped bauxite from all over the world to use the nice cheap power. Which is still subsidized out the wazoo.

Tell me again about the ideology thing, eh?

The real question is why they cut the subsidy.

gord Why wait? You can write letters and e-mails. You can bust their chops a little just to let them know you are there. Some websites I go to I just go to lay out some logic when it gets real strange. Some get in, some don't but someone has to read 'em.

Well Speedy I used to be very active in local politics. Wrote tons of emails, made phone calls, went to meetings. All it did was put me on the radar for corrupt city hall people, corrupt cops and organized crime. I prefer to keep my real name out of the equation now. Believe me these people can make your life miserable.

Of course it would have been easier if the local newspaper or television station had been honest.

We can all fight the fight our own way. I would prefer not to have my house taken away or to walk with a limp for the rest of my life.

Don't be too hard on Davenport there Phantom, from reading the article linked, it seems that the plant had a good deal going but failed (or were prevented) from upgrading their process or power source when the writing was on the wall. A smelter at 10% capacity is just keeping a skeleton crew employed a bit longer so they can build up their pensions. There are examples all over Canada of the very same thing. A business loses profitability and government starts to subsidize to keep jobs etc up until the point that "it is too important to fail" and the wheels fall off. Just think of Cape Breton coal or steel ventures, most of the shipyards in the Maritimes, asbestos production in Quebec, a paper/pulp mill in Prince Albert, Newfy cucumber farming, etc... If the private sector can't make a go of it then there is no reason government can save the day.

And then there is the whole China thing.

Greg,

we have one of those thermostats....it actually doesnt get adjusted that often, 2 x this summer for a total of 4 hours mid day....once we were rom, once we werent.

My only complaint is that they just raise the temp no matter what you were at....meaning it doesnt matter whether I was at 18C in the summer or 24 in the summer, they raise the temp 1 to 2 degrees no matter. We tend to keep our house at 23.5C in the summer, about 77F. Higher than the 72 some seem to keep their homes at.

But hey I entered into the contract freely becase I got a new thermostat and a credit on my bill. Fine by me. They still dont have it right in how they do it.

My second complaint is that the proposed time of use pricing actually doesnt generate much difference. Reason, the hydos tack on so many fixed charges now that there isnt much difference...they are scared of losing base demand that generates their revenues....ridiculous.

Texas, perhaps I am a bit too testy. Yer pardon, Davenport.

I do come by it honestly though. I'm from Hamilton Ont. I've seen this process in living colour my whole life. Makes me pretty f-ing cranky.

Do you know the Chicoms AND the Koreans AND the Japanese would buy Canadian iron ore and land finished steel on the dock at Hamilton cheaper than Stelco could make it? Before they were bought out by US Steel and shuttered, anyway. Not a little cheaper either. A -lot- cheaper.

I'm old enough to remember the Studebaker plant, the knitting mills, the fabric mills, Frost Fence company, Massey Ferguson, all kinds of stuff. Hamilton was the beating heart of the Golden Horseshoe, they made everything you can imagine.

You know what they make down on Burlington Street these days? -Nothing-. And lots of it. All there is left is Dofasco (Arcelor/Mittal) and National Steel Car, which buys imported steel. When they have a contract.

What killed Hamilton? Regulation on regulation, tax on tax on tax, dirty filthy local provincial and federal politics , unions, loss of overseas markets to Asia, abject management stupidity, blah blah blah. Dead and not coming back. Same exact situation as this aluminum company.

One problem with all this, Canada is supposed to be a sovereign nation, as is the USA. Is it smart for a sovereign nation to buy all their metals and finished goods from overseas? From fairly hostile regimes to boot? I think not.

If Canada suddenly needed a couple million tons of steel right now, we'd be royally screwed. Its hard to build jet fighters and ships and tanks and guns with aluminum and steel imported from the enemy, know what I mean?

as an Ontarian, I will NEVER consent to them controlling something I own, operate and pay for legally in regards to my own property. Right now, this "feature" is optional and people are bribed to sign on to it with a $25 rebate and a free thermostat. Well, screw them!
Whether or not it has a noticable impact is not the issue. The fact that some nameless, faceless bureaucrat can decide at what temperature your dwelling place should be, IS!
Mandatory implementation of this would be an invasion of privacy.

Stephen: they did it twice this year. In the coming years they will do it far more often. Then the freebies and bribes will look very uncomfortable to you and yours

Here is recent clip from a Vancouver Radio Station that addresses this topic beautifully. It's a ten minute clip and it worth a listen.

Here

The Phantom: "What killed Hamilton? Regulation on regulation, tax on tax on tax, dirty filthy local provincial and federal politics , unions, loss of overseas markets to Asia, abject management stupidity, blah blah blah."

Not just. Let's not forget your own small, indirect role in the process too. Because when you support unfettered free trade, market globalization, government deregulation, etc., this is exactly what you're supporting: the right of "senior management" to close down local factories and ship working and middle-class jobs overseas in the name of cheaper labour and thus higher profits. That's what the free market looks like, on a global scale.

Who do you think originated this narrative of "taxes are too high, regulation is too burdensome, government is the problem" anyway? Here's a hint: they used to own N. American factories, now they own Asian ones.

Columbia Falls Aluminum Company.....HMMM.......isn't that the company that hadda shut down not just because of price but lack/shortage of power because the enviro's succeeded in getting a fully functional hydro-electric dam destroyed---to "free the river......"

These looney-tunes enviros...don't class hydro-electric as "renewable".........

These clown succeeded in getting several dams taken out and also turned the lush central Valley of Californica into a desert for the benefit of an evolutionary dead-end minnow.

That's what the free market looks like, on a global scale.

You forgot cheaper goods means more purchasing power which translates to a higher standard of living, but you mercantilist rubes never could see more than two inches in front of your noses.

"You forgot cheaper goods means more purchasing power which translates to a higher standard of living..."

Unless, of course, your job, your town's local factories, and your region's manufacturer industry have all been shipped overseas.

Moving companies to countries with lower wages and taxes is part of free enterprise. It's a global economy after all. And why not let developing nations have a piece of the pie for a change? Get used to it.

Actually Davenport, my small role was -leaving-. I left Hamilton first, then I left Canada altogether. Had I not done that, I'd still be a broke house painter living in some rented dump in Toronto, driving a fifteen year old wreck.

The place I fled to was America, where they still had freedom, jobs and money and I got a bunch of it. Unfortunately that's not happening anymore, Americans are looking up here for a job.

What killed America, Davenport? Same exact thing that killed Hamilton. Same thing that killed the aluminum factory.

"...this is exactly what you're supporting: the right of "senior management" to close down local factories and ship working and middle-class jobs overseas in the name of cheaper labour and thus higher profits."

Well, no. There's a limit to what can be accomplished with cheap labor.

The CFO or CEO of Intel was on Bloomberg a couple months ago. Intel is opening a new chip fab in Arizona, Fab32.
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/manufacturing/Fab32/index.htm
He said that between one thing and another, to finish that green-field factory build in Arizona cost -more than double- what it would have cost in China, and the labor cost difference was -negligible-. Arizona was the cheapest place they could find in the USA. Labor cost not a factor.

He also said they were -unable- to build it in California. At any price.

Do you think Jim Balsillie of RIM would be making Blackberries in China if he didn't have to? Wouldn't it be WAY easier to make 'em in Waterloo?

But he -can't- make them in Waterloo. Its fiscally impossible. I'm sure he couldn't even legally dispose of the chemical waste from the operation without shipping it out of Canada entirely.

"taxes are too high, regulation is too burdensome, government is the problem" is not a narrative. It is the water you being slowly boiled alive in. We all are. The only reason I see it is because I went someplace that doesn't have that problem as badly.

I looked into opening a little coffee bar in Ancaster Ont. one time. You know how much it costs? About three to four hundred grand by the time all the shooting's over, more if you buy the building you're in. You know why? Building code, health code, fire code, insurance, business tax, employee regulations, CPP, EI, Workers Comp, lawyers fees, and on and on it goes. For a -coffee bar-. Not even a burger joint. Takes ten years to get your money back out, unless you get sued and/or go bust.

You know how much it costs to do the same thing in Arizona? About $80,000 to $100,000. Takes like three to five years to get your money back, or did in 2002 anyway.

I decided it would be less risky to burn the money in the street than start a business in Ontario. Imagine trying to build cars here. Or tractors. Or even a flippin' bicycle.

Here's one tiny example in a sea of similar occurrences.

Did you know that the -only- woodworking machines still physically made in Canada are made by General in Quebec?

www.general.ca/index_en.html

A General table saw, of which I am the proud owner, costs $3,300 dollars. Plus tax. Any other table saw of comparable size and power costs $1800, and is made in Asia.

General survives for three reasons. First, they make the best table saw in the world. Second, their factory in Quebec gets muy bueno dinero from La Belle Provence and from the Feds for staying there. Third, they outsourced most of their other product line manufacturing to... wait for it... Taiwan!

Because why? Because while The Phantom is willing to cough up -double the money- for the finest table saw in the world, I (and every other sane woodworker in the country) am quite happy with the excellent quality jointer, planers, band saws, shapers, routers, drill presses and etc. that come from Taiwan and Korea.

But this is the best part, right here. I love this part. General may soon cease their sales of tools to the USA, particularly table saws. Wanna know why?

A guy cut his own fingers in a Ryobi contractor's saw, (not a General, a Ryobi) by virtue of breaking every single safety rule there is. Instead of suing his employer for not training him properly, he sued the manufacturer of the saw.

www.finewoodworking.com/item/29741/defense-outgunned-in-osorio-tablesaw-lawsuit

Ooh, and he WON! He won a million and a half samoleans, baby! Woo hoo!

So now, if a guy cuts himself on your saw, or drill, shaper, planer, joiner, whatever, you could be out a couple-three million bucks in payouts and lawyers fees.

Unless of course you are a company in China! Then you are safely out of reach of Uncle Sam's grasping fingers, free to make a buck selling to America the largest market in the whole freaking world. Thus if General wants access to the US market, they may very well have to do it crookedly through China or some other country that will give them cover from US lawyers. Some country other than Canada, specifically.

Please tell me again how the senior management of General is shipping Canadian jobs overseas to get higher profits.

Phantom, thats telling them.

BTW, do you have to wear a helmet when you leave your door yet?

Two bits of news today....
Channell 11 (Hamilton) announced a major "wind turbine" manufacturer is setting up shop to provide the bird grinders for mcSquinty's wet dream.
Then the radio says a SOLAR "module" factory is opening in Guelph, employing 500...making it the biggest in North America.
Meanwhile, I heard an unconfirmed rumble/rumour that the solar guys are upset because the government is dropping the price of solar power from $0.80/kw (10X normal/nuke) to about $0.60/kw (8X normal/nuke).

Phantom @ 5:21PM. Great rant and I agree with all of it except the part on Canuck manufacturers of woodworking equipment. Oneway of Ontario makes great woodworking lathes and accessories. There's also a small outfit in BC - can't recall their name off hand - that makes a dovetail jig quite reasonably. And then there is Veritas/Lee Valley in Ottawa making great hand tools.

But - that only make about 4 in total. Doesn't distract from the meat of your post at all.

cheaper goods means more purchasing power which translates to a higher standard of living

How the heck does cheap import disposable plastic crap that breaks or wears out in a year translate to a higher standard of living?

What a joke.

Thanks Niall.

I looked up Oneway. Another case of guys making a WAY over priced machine that people buy because it represents technical value they can't get from Taiwan, like General. Likewise Veritas lives by producing non-standard, high quality tools you simply can't get anywhere else.

Remember when Stanley had a casting works in... wait for it... Hamilton? Veritas is slowly reproducing their cataloge because people still need those hand tools, and the antiques are drying up. And frankly, at $300 bucks each I don't think Mr. Lee is moving all that many planes.

Is there any way in hell the Phantom Tool Works could start up on Barton Street in Hamilton, stick a shovel in the ground today, and make a buck in the present climate? We would have to be utter fools to invest in such a venture.

But Phantom Tool Works could start up and flourish wildly in China, Taiwan, Korea. That would be worth investing in, right?

Davenport has yet to explain to me how Conservatism, free markets and Capitalism is responsible for this state of affairs. I continue to maintain it is government, pure and simple, through idiot mechanisms like the Smart Grid, that continues to drive businesses off shore.

How are you going to run a manufacturing plant when somebody else controls your electricity supply schedule, and changes it depending on the TEMPERATURE? It gets hot, they cut power to your smelter. Nightmare!

Ken, the other guys put their helmets on when I walk out the door. ~:D

Sasquatch's note about the government price of power, I'd heard that too. Solar panels are sprouting up in the parking lots of small businesses around here, the odd farm has one too. All the same design, galvanized frame with panels on the top. They look a little wiggly to me, we shall see what winter brings.

Those panels do not produce enough power on a sunny day to run an electric lawn mower, just so we all know what we're talking about here. Their purpose is entirely -propaganda-, plus a bribe to the owners as long as the province keeps paying them ten times the going rate for electricity.

But d'oh, if the price drops to only eight times the normal rate suddenly that thing in the driveway is no longer PROFITABLE! Its maybe break-even, maybe a little less. Farmer Joe is now stuck with a big ugly boat anchor in the front yard that he still has to wash every week just to avoid losing his entire investment.

Oh and by the way, since when is it supposed to be the job of government to control the supply of electricity? The original Edison Electric was strictly Thomas Edison and the boys pumping out power to run them newfangled light bulbs. That continued until our SOCIALISTS decided to fool the public here in DumbF-istan by seizing the means of production and bribing them with cheap power subsidized by taxes. AKA their own money.

Why does power cost so much here? Because every damn thing Ontario Hydro does is gold plated, buried in half a ton of paperwork, and signed off on by two hundred mid-level poohbahs whose jobs wouldn't exist if it wasn't a government operation, every one of whom makes six figures.

The part that kills me is people like Davenport think the world would come to a fiery end if power generation and the grid went 100% private. The PHONE COMPANY is private and it works, why not hydro? ARRRRGH!!!

But here's Dalton, slapping a frickin "Smart" meter on my house that a twelve year old could hack so that he can have his propaganda solar and wind crap messing up my view. The people out here in the boonies already hate the Liberals and the masses of Davenports in Toronto don't see these bloody things. He loses no votes, gets to bribe some friends, and keeps the morons happy in Torontostan.

Its frigging genius I tell you. Divide and conquer, just like the gun registry. Just don't try to make anything here and you'll be fine.